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Article: The "middle class" myth: Here's why wages are really so low today

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High-Skill or High-Risk occupations will generally be able to maintain unionization due to either leverage or necessity. But as you said- it was due to scarcity that they were/are able to do this. If that scarcity disappears, so does that leverage.

Globalization is part of it, but countries in Western Europe, along with Japan haven't had the same massive drop in unionization. For that to happen, you need a political force to make it harder to form unions and for it to make 'sense' to pass anti-union laws like right-to-fire. That's not even getting into Taft-Hartley.

Agreed the system only rewards those the population that actually puts in work.

Come on, everyone knows the top 1% just worked much harder than everybody else starting in the early 80's.
 
How was I being disingenuous? I stated that's what the Walmart by me is offering. I've never worked at Walmart so I have no idea what their "normal" pay for a stocker or cashier is.

You didn't mention McDonalds. You were lamenting that your friends couldn't find a steady job even with their skilled trade. So I asked if you thought they'd be better off working at McDonalds (for example), as a non-skilled worker versus sticking it out in the trades. Maybe you missed that because you're too busy being emotional in your posts?

Why not actually address my points instead of going off on some rant about mcdonalds? It might actually lead to a discussion.
 
Short answer: No, it's not unionization. Unions have lost power for a variety of reasons, most related to technological advancement/globalization, not "evil businesses" pushing them out through legislation. Union benefits also only accrue to Union members, not all of society. The pushes need to be for a stronger safety net in the public sphere, as expecting business to do anything but serve its own interests is a fool's errand.

That's funny, I must have forgotten signing up for that union when I was working a considerably higher minimum wage than the US and getting 28 days paid holiday a year.
 
Costs are still higher which equals less profits but you're right, you got me on semantics.

I believe people, who are capable, should have to work for what they get and not depend on others to support them.

Are you a liberal? Liberals are usually pretty good at taking from people that earn what they have and giving it to those who don't.

We all depend on each other, that is what we call a society. Rich people rely on the labor of the working class to acrue their profits. Rich people rely on the taxes of working class people for roads, police, military, subsidies etc. Isn't it only fair that rich people should give something back?
 
Globalization is part of it, but countries in Western Europe, along with Japan haven't had the same massive drop in unionization. For that to happen, you need a political force to make it harder to form unions and for it to make 'sense' to pass anti-union laws like right-to-fire. That's not even getting into Taft-Hartley.
Promotion based on longevity/inability to fire low-performers is a real problem that Unions present to management. Europe/Japan are subject to the same pressure that the US is re: Globalization. It's not some conspiracy that's trying to rewrite laws all across the world.
That's funny, I must have forgotten signing up for that union when I was working a considerably higher minimum wage than the US and getting 28 days paid holiday a year.
I'm not sure how to read this - I'm assuming you're not in the US? I would agree that government is a better source of correction for these issues than unionization.
 
MEAT'S BACK ON THE MENU BOYS

-I didn't get you on semantics, I got you on the invalidity of he concept of a company being forced to hand profits back to employees. Not how economics work.

-people working who are capable has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, and your perspective has less and less to do with reality as the day when there were enough jobs for everyone who wants one are gone forever. Literally.

-you're going to feel really, really stupid for showing your hand and your intellectual shortcomings with that last line.
There's millions of jobs available that are going unfilled. Literally.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/jolts.nr0.htm
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-25/companies-say-3-million-unfilled-positions-in-skill-crisis-jobs.html
http://staffingtalk.com/3-million-unfilled-job-openings-america/

I feel about as stupid posting that last line as I'm sure you felt with yours.
 
Promotion based on longevity/inability to fire low-performers is a real problem that Unions present to management.

That's part of bargaining. Make it easier to fire people or have a different way of measuring promotion (since most jobs really don't have many ways to determine who is the 'best' at something, regardless of what business schools tells you) and you have to give the unions something.

Europe/Japan are subject to the same pressure that the US is re: Globalization. It's not some conspiracy that's trying to rewrite laws all across the world.

I agree. But, the fact they still have stronger unionization mean it's not just globalization driving the changes in the US.

I'm not sure how to read this - I'm assuming you're not in the US? I would agree that government is a better source of correction for these issues than unionization.

His point is that stronger unions mean a stronger labor movement in general and as a result, the government can be pressured to do things like raise a minimum wage and install vacation days, probably because union members got those benefits first. Of course, in the United States, that might not work, because instead of asking "why don't we have those benefits and how can I get them", we ask "why do those people have benefits and how can I bring them down to my level."
 
We all depend on each other, that is what we call a society. Rich people rely on the labor of the working class to acrue their profits. Rich people rely on the taxes of working class people for roads, police, military, subsidies etc. Isn't it only fair that rich people should give something back?
Why should they? Just simply because they're rich? If a person clawed their way up from the bottom (or not), you think we deserve a piece of their pie soley because they're rich?

I don't understand that thinking at all.
 
That's funny, I must have forgotten signing up for that union when I was working a considerably higher minimum wage than the US and getting 28 days paid holiday a year.
That's actually an interesting discussion (and Philip Collins - no, not *that* Phil Collins - in The Times wrote a great piece about this but it's behind the pays wall) itself - about how the work of the unions and the Labour party have, in time, fixed into legislation many things the Unions used to fight for, like the minimum wage, statutory redundancy, maternity leave, levels of paid leave, working hours etc (although we can still opt out of that). In other words, government has crowded out unions which is why you have comedy figures like Bob Crowe et al in co from of unions that look around for things to do and, with nothing better, just arrange marches and write newsletters.
 

Just google "Myth of Structural Unemployment" and get back to me. There's always going to be "millions" of job opening because we live in a country of 300 million people.
 
Why should they? Just simply because they're rich? If a person clawed their way up from the bottom (or not), you think we deserve a piece of their pie soley because they're rich?

I don't understand that thinking at all.

I explained it to you, but you conveniently skipped that, didn't you?
 
Why should they? Just simply because they're rich? If a person clawed their way up from the bottom (or not), you think we deserve a piece of their pie soley because they're rich?

I don't understand that thinking at all.

When I find somebody who clawed their way to the top without the help of society, whether it be the very basic protection of private property, a fair justice system, infrastructure, environmental protections, education a skilled workforce, protecting patents, and so on, I'll believe they should be exempt from any taxes.
 

http://business.time.com/2012/06/04/the-skills-gap-myth-why-companies-cant-find-good-people/

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/dont-blame-the-work-force.html?_r=0

Skills gap is a myth. Its a narrative disseminated by employers for their own benefit

Why should they? Just simply because they're rich? If a person clawed their way up from the bottom (or not), you think we deserve a piece of their pie soley because they're rich?

I don't understand that thinking at all.

Because the rich are the only ones who have benefited from America's increased production. They are getting all of the wealth while middle class wages have stagnated. They didnt 'earn' it, they simply used their power to take a greater share of the generated wealth than previous generations
 
Just because there are us filled jobs, for various reasons of location and sector, doesn't mean that there are enough jobs for everyone willing to work. Want to guess whether or not the number of unemployed is far, far higher than 3 million? We don't even need to get into the fact that the capabilities of the workforce aren't going to line up with opportunities perfectly so that every job had a person to fill it if location wasn't a factor.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/10/25/jobs-numbers-unemploymenteconomicgrowth.html

Now the question is, are you smart enough to feel stupid now?
 
Why not actually address my points instead of going off on some rant about mcdonalds? It might actually lead to a discussion.
I might have missed it because I'm bouncing all over with replies but I didn't see you make any points. You commented on something I said with a story about how your friends couldn't find steady work as electricians. I used McDonalds as an example in my response (please point out my "rant") and now you're focusing on that.

I apologize, you have my full attention now, so your points please.
 

Beat me to it.

Go to any application for an entry level job and look at the experience requirements. Everyone wants previous experience to do jobs that are supposed to give you experience. It's a Catch-22.

Most businesses don't want to train anyone, they'd rather poach someone from another company that already knows the job.
 
Yeah, Skills gap is not a real thing- it's businesses wanting to poach, rather than train from the ground up. Structural unemployment, though, is a very real thing. It's a basic economic concept. The housing market crash, for instance, brought on a very real "oversupply" issue for people in related fields, as the jobs did not return to their pre-crash levels and are not going to anytime soon.
 
Why should they? Just simply because they're rich? If a person clawed their way up from the bottom (or not), you think we deserve a piece of their pie soley because they're rich?

I don't understand that thinking at all.

No one claws their way up from the bottom on their own. Workers and customers facilitate all their success.
 
I might have missed it because I'm bouncing all over with replies but I didn't see you make any points. You commented on something I said with a story about how your friends couldn't find steady work as electricians. I used McDonalds as an example in my response (please point out my "rant") and now you're focusing on that.

I apologize, you have my full attention now, so your points please.

I know right now you're feeling ganged up on, and it can be overwhelming...but that tends to be what happens when you throw out easily debunked information and weak anecdotal evidence.

Hopefully you can soon realize how completely and utterly wrong your initial points were and learn from that. Then you won't get ganged up on in the future, because your views will now match up more closely with reality (remember, this is not a matter of "left vs. right" but "data that matches up with reality vs. gut feelings and anecdotes"). But of course, you should still be willing to learn more, as all of us should.

Progress!
 
wealth-change-epi.jpg



I think these 3 graphs say it all right here. I don't think anyone could credibly argue that the increase in productivity was all due to the top 5-10%
 
Just because there are us filled jobs, for various reasons of location and sector, doesn't mean that there are enough jobs for everyone willing to work. Want to guess whether or not the number of unemployed is far, far higher than 3 million? We don't even need to get into the fact that the capabilities of the workforce aren't going to line up with opportunities perfectly so that every job had a person to fill it if location wasn't a factor.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/10/25/jobs-numbers-unemploymenteconomicgrowth.html

Now the question is, are you smart enough to feel stupid now?
Ah so the opportunities should line up for the people instead of the other way around. You're right, I do feel stupid.
 
I think these 3 graphs say it all right here. I don't think anyone could credibly argue that the increase in productivity was all due to the top 5-10%

So what you want to tell me is that 5% of all Americans do 75% of the work right? Amazing people right there!
 
I know right now you're feeling ganged up on, and it can be overwhelming...but that tends to be what happens when you throw out easily debunked information and weak anecdotal evidence.

Hopefully you can soon realize how completely and utterly wrong your initial points were and learn from that. Then you won't get ganged up on in the future, because your views will now match up more closely with reality (remember, this is not a matter of "left vs. right" but "data that matches up with reality vs. gut feelings and anecdotes"). But of course, you should still be willing to learn more, as all of us should.

Progress!

Not at all. I'm certainly not "set" in my thinking and I actually thoroughly enjoy learning from other people and their thoughts/experiences. I wish more people could present their arguments in a level headed manner but, as evidenced by most in this thread, they let their emotions get in the way. "Bah he doesn't agree with me and my points so let's call him stupid and post gifs showing how dumb he is!"

And no, thus far I stand by my points as I haven't been presented with anything but anecdotes and gut feelings as well.
 
Not at all. I'm certainly not "set" in my thinking and I actually thoroughly enjoy learning from other people and their thoughts/experiences. I wish more people could present their arguments in a level headed manner but, as evidenced by most in this thread, they let their emotions get in the way. "Bah he doesn't agree with me and my points so let's call him stupid and post gifs showing how dumb he is!"

And no, thus far I stand by my points as I haven't been presented with anything but anecdotes and gut feelings as well.

Except of course, for the multiple people who have linked to studies, articles, and even colorful graphs.
 
Ah so the opportunities should line up for the people instead of the other way around. You're right, I do feel stupid.
Are you willfully misunderstanding things now? To have some remainder of unfilled jobs from the employment equation is a given. It's a constant. It is absolutely meaningless in the face of the fact that even though geography and skillsets make filling all of those jobs imossible, filling them would still only account for a fraction of unemployed adults.

So in an attempt to deny that there aren't enough jobs, you offer up jobs that don't add up to enough even if they could be filled in a fantasy scenario.
 
Not at all. I'm certainly not "set" in my thinking and I actually thoroughly enjoy learning from other people and their thoughts/experiences. I wish more people could present their arguments in a level headed manner but, as evidenced by most in this thread, they let their emotions get in the way. "Bah he doesn't agree with me and my points so let's call him stupid and post gifs showing how dumb he is!"

And no, thus far I stand by my points as I haven't been presented with anything but anecdotes and gut feelings as well.
You aren't getting that reaction because of how misinformed you are, but because of your arrogance and the implications about your morals and views that come from your statements.
 
Not at all. I'm certainly not "set" in my thinking and I actually thoroughly enjoy learning from other people and their thoughts/experiences. I wish more people could present their arguments in a level headed manner but, as evidenced by most in this thread, they let their emotions get in the way. "Bah he doesn't agree with me and my points so let's call him stupid and post gifs showing how dumb he is!"

And no, thus far I stand by my points as I haven't been presented with anything but anecdotes and gut feelings as well.

The fuck? Get your persecution complex in check.
 
Hibachi, I would like to know what your philosophy is on the role of government in society? Do you think it is ok for the government to intervene in economic issues?
 
Are you willfully misunderstanding things now? To have some remainder of unfilled jobs from the employment equation is a given. It's a constant. It is absolutely meaningless in the face of the fact that even though geography and skillsets make filling all of those jobs imossible, filling them would still only account for a fraction of unemployed adults.

So in an attempt to deny that there aren't enough jobs, you offer up jobs that don't add up to enough even if they could be filled in a fantasy scenario.
Nope, your point just doesn't really need to be further expanded on. Of course there's more people than jobs available and I agree that will (probably) always be.
 
Ah, just like the links I posted that everyone was quick to dismiss.

If you have statistics showing growth in productivity hasn't spun off from growth in income or that the one percent haven't gained wildly at the expense of the other 99% in the last thirty years, please enlighten us.

And you didn't post links to studies or articles from an economist or even a business leader. You linked to a BLS report that said, "jobs are available", as they always are. There were jobs available the day after Black Friday in 1929. Your other two links were basically rewritten press releases from corporations saying, "it's not our fault we haven't hired anybody."

At least the other resident libertarians actually link to studies from think tanks or blogs of libertarian economists, as batshit crazy they may be.
 
Nope, your point just doesn't really need to be further expanded on. Of course there's more people than jobs available and I agree that will (probably) always be.

Except we've reached full employment in this nation multiple times. Even fairly recently. Australia is near full employment. If we have the correct policies, we can get close to full employment. It just takes the political will.
 
You aren't getting that reaction because of how misinformed you are, but because of your arrogance and the implications about your morals and views that come from your statements.
I'm pretty sure I've been fairly level headed from the first post. I can assure you that any perceived arrogance has been unintentional.

But calling me misinformed and arrogant while trying to push your morals and views on me? Surely you see the irony in your post(s).
 
I'm pretty sure I've been fairly level headed from the first post. I can assure you that any perceived arrogance has been unintentional.

But calling me misinformed and arrogant while trying to push your morals and views on me? Surely you see the irony in your post(s).
Pushing truth on you, is what we are doing. Resisting only makes my penis harder.
 
Except we've reached full employment in this nation multiple times. Even fairly recently. Australia is near full employment. If we have the correct policies, we can get close to full employment. It just takes the political will.
Australia's economy and population is also a fraction of ours.
 
Australia's economy and population is also a fraction of ours.

So? I'm not talking about the number of people employed, I'm talking about the percentage. And again, within just about everybodies on this boards lifetime, we had full employment in the United States.
 
Pushing truth on you, is what we are doing. Resisting only makes my penis harder.
Hahaha well I guess that's a good thing? Nobody has any use for a limp dick. ;)

And it's all relative. I could say the same thing and we wouldn't have gained any more ground because, ultimately, this subject is the same as a million others (legalizing weed, gun control, abortion, etc.).

I was just hoping to have a discussion because, like I said before, I truly enjoy learning from others and their experiences. I like hearing people's thought process in a "Hibachi, I don't agree with you and here's why" way, like mature adults should do.

Being new to GAF, maybe I overestimated the user base. Next time (when I'm not a fucking noob member) I'll try to keep my responses to one liners and gifs.
 
Hahaha well I guess that's a good thing? Nobody has any use for a limp dick. ;)

And it's all relative. I could say the same thing and we wouldn't have gained any more ground because, ultimately, this subject is the same as a million others (legalizing weed, gun control, abortion, etc.).

I was just hoping to have a discussion because, like I said before, I truly enjoy learning from others and their experiences. I like hearing people's thought process in a "Hibachi, I don't agree with you and here's why" way, like mature adults should do.

Being new to GAF, maybe I overestimated the user base. Next time (when I'm not a fucking noob member) I'll try to keep my responses to one liners and gifs.

In other words, you're ignoring and dismissing the literally thousands of words that various people have typed on this and other economic threads just in the past few weeks because a few people used a couple of silly gifs?
 
So? I'm not talking about the number of people employed, I'm talking about the percentage. And again, within just about everybodies on this boards lifetime, we had full employment in the United States.
That depends, I guess, on your definition of "full employment". The US, I believe, defines it as 3 or 4% unemployment.

And, according to Wikipedia at least (I know, not a good source), that has never happened on a national level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment#United_States
 
So? I'm not talking about the number of people employed, I'm talking about the percentage. And again, within just about everybodies on this boards lifetime, we had full employment in the United States.
Everyone in my house has a job. 100% employment.

By the way, full employment doesn't mean everyone that wants a job can get a job. It means unemployment is at some single digit percentage high enough not to trigger inflation that gets changed around a lot over the years. What has also changed over the years is new distinctions that exclude more people from the count of "officially unemployed".
 
Being new to GAF, maybe I overestimated the user base. Next time (when I'm not a fucking noob member) I'll try to keep my responses to one liners and gifs.
Well, you've just joined and are placing yourself in a class above this entire forum, in a discussion in which you were trounced. Welcome aboard.
 
The fuck? Get your persecution complex in check.
If all you've taken away from everything I've posted in here is that I have a "persecution complex" then I doubt your ability to keep up with the discussion and understand why you have nothing constructive to add.
 
Well, you've just joined and are placing yourself in a class above this entire forum, in a discussion in which you were trounced. Welcome aboard.
I understand the whole "fucking noob" mentality as it's the same with every board but how did I place myself "in a class above this entire forum"? I'm not sure I entirely understand what you're trying to say with that statement.

Trounced? Hardly but if you want to feel like you "won" an argument on the internet, well, whatever keeps your dick hard I guess. :)
 
If all you've taken away from everything I've posted in here is that I have a "persecution complex" then I doubt your ability to keep up with the discussion and understand why you have nothing constructive to add.

No, I've taken away more than just that from everything you've posted in here.

Look up "Just World Hypothesis", because that's apparently what informs your economics.
 
I think a troubling part of GAF discourse can be the tendency for bandwagons to get started without any conscious decision. The userbase is predominantly socialist-liberal, and also highly opinionated. As such, whenever anyone comes along with an opposite viewpoint, they'll have a large number of respondents. Most of those will try and post contributive material, but one or two will post .gifs or one-liners. Unfortunately, when you are the person in the line of fire, you notice the shitty posts much more than you do the good posts, simply because they're often insulting of your opinion. This immediately makes tempers short and can lead to some unfortunate generalizations. It's also extremely difficult to respond to as many posts as are often made, which can lead to the odd-man-out having to post short responses without much detail simply to cover a fair number of the opposition in a reasonable amount of time. Naturally, this makes that opposition feel like the odd-man-out isn't fully engaging in the debate, which coupled with earlier generalizations, can make things descend into petty name-calling quite quickly, all without any original intent of malice. It's not really my place to say, Hibachi, but I think if you were to start your argument again from the start and then pick one or two people to acknowledge and ask the rest just to have some patience, we might get a meaningful conversation out of this.
 
I think a troubling part of GAF discourse can be the tendency for bandwagons to get started without any conscious decision. The userbase is predominantly socialist-liberal, and also highly opinionated. As such, whenever anyone comes along with an opposite viewpoint, they'll have a large number of respondents. Most of those will try and post contributive material, but one or two will post .gifs or one-liners. Unfortunately, when you are the person in the line of fire, you notice the shitty posts much more than you do the good posts, simply because they're often insulting of your opinion. This immediately makes tempers short and can lead to some unfortunate generalizations. It's also extremely difficult to respond to as many posts as are often made, which can lead to the odd-man-out having to post short responses without much detail simply to cover a fair number of the opposition in a reasonable amount of time. Naturally, this makes that opposition feel like the odd-man-out isn't fully engaging in the debate, which coupled with earlier generalizations, can make things descend into petty name-calling quite quickly, all without any original intent of malice. It's not really my place to say, Hibachi, but I think if you were to start your argument again from the start and then pick one or two people to acknowledge and ask the rest just to have some patience, we might get a meaningful conversation out of this.

This is pretty well-said.
 
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