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Article: The "middle class" myth: Here's why wages are really so low today

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Those companies also get part of their wages literally paid by the public as well. Isn't that great? But instead of calling those companies out, people complain about having to give out foodstamps + help those low-wage workers. No, doh, you are actually supporting horrible companies by doing that.

And right, I would rather fully pay for a few more unemployed people instead of paying terrible companies part of their wages. Because by supporting those companies with tax money, we are effectively making it harder for good companies, who pay their workers properly.

It's like I say, though not ideal, I'd rather put millions more people on "the government teat" than keep shoveling more wealth into corporations [who aren't human beings] that are more than happy to extract this wealth out of the economy with zero repercussions.

As much as sometimes I'm sure I'm a misanthrope, I care about humans more and they only have one place to put the money... back into the economy.
 
But bootstraps!

The mentality that a person getting 100$ in foodstamps is destroying society, but a billion dollar company that uses up tons of our public infrastructure gets millions of dollars in tax credits because they've been allowed to reduce their tax bill to zero. They literally get paid by the taxpayer to use the taxpayer's property.

Because they provide jobs! Jobs that pay taxes!

What do you mean they don't pay them enough, and now you think either they should raise minimum wages to provide them a livable wage, or have corporations pay taxes so that people with low wages can be provided subsidized welfare?

What kind of lazy bastard doesn't work hard enough to support themselves? Always asking for hand outs! Who do they think pays the taxes around here?!
 
This is already playing out in Washington state.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/30/highest-in-nation-15-minimum-wage-stirs-concern-from-local-businesses/
But the link is Fox News so I'm sure it holds no value whatsoever.
I live in Washington state and am really interested in seeing how this plays out. The problem(s) with that article though is it's obvious desire to doom the policy before it's implemented. They mentioned only two companies by name and one had plans to EXPAND to increase revenue and the other, Dollar Rent a Car, is planning to outsource, shuffle schedules, and "cut some staff." The other actual company mentioned isn't named and the quote simply says they are holding off opening their twelfth hotel for now due to "uncertainty."

I also like how they quoted the one socialist on the city council who also happens to have an exotic, foreign sounding name.
 
I also like how they quoted the one socialist on the city council who also happens to have an exotic, foreign sounding name.

She is the one pushing the $15 min hike, she also about Boeing

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/...efends-accusing-boeing-of-economic-terrorism/

On Monday, Sawant also called on workers to take over the company’s Everett, Washington plant, and use the facility to build buses instead of “war machines” like drones, a call she reiterated on Thursday.

“Boeing has made the first move,” she told KIRO. “Executives have made the first move. They have made their move of threatening the economy. Boeing workers have to pose a counter-threat.”

so yeah, she is going to be the go to for quotes about this hike.
 
I just wonder how people are going to take it when technology ultimately replaces their jobs. I guess the concept of a post-working society is too much for people.

Here in Nevada, we have self-driving vehicles and flying robots. I bet in ten to twenty years, not one bus, taxi, delivery truck driver, etc will have human workers in them. Those flying drones will definitely get rid of all the fire fighters, and more delivery people. I also heard that the fast food / coffee serving industry wants to get rid of all human manual workers, and have the technology right now to do it. There are a lot more industries that could also do the same.

It's definitely an employer's market where they have a choice of outsourcing oversees and/or using robots, instead of using pesky humans.
 
She is the one pushing the $15 min hike, she also about Boeing

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/...efends-accusing-boeing-of-economic-terrorism/



so yeah, she is going to be the go to for quotes about this hike.
Interesting. The bus comment was dumb but otherwise I agree with her about Boeing.

I think it's funny that everyone complains about jobs being outsourced to Bangladesh, India, and China, but now those jobs are being outsourced to lower wage workers in our own country (South Carolina in Boeing's case).
 
Anyone with the most nascent sproutings of class consciousness in their brain could tell you the ~middle class~ doesn't exist. What better way to divide the working class against itself than tell most of them that, not only are they not working class, but that they are above them.

The idea that you can make barely above minimum wage being an office jockey and feel yourself "middle class" because you're not down a coal mine or destitute is such a massive con and everyone falls for it.
If you have to prostitute your time and labour to survive then you are working class, and should be proud of the fact.

"They say you need no union if your collar isn't blue,
Well that is just another lie the boss is telling you"
 
I just wonder how people are going to take it when technology ultimately replaces their jobs. I guess the concept of a post-working society is too much for people.

Here in Nevada, we have self-driving vehicles and flying robots. I bet in ten to twenty years, not one bus, taxi, delivery truck driver, etc will have human workers in them. Those flying drones will definitely get rid of all the fire fighters, and more delivery people. I also heard that the fast food / coffee serving industry wants to get rid of all human manual workers, and have the technology right now to do it. There are a lot more industries that could also do the same.

It's definitely an employer's market where they have a choice of outsourcing oversees and/or using robots, instead of using pesky humans.

All the more reason why we cannot treat low skilled and unemployed people like shit.
Until we figure out how to adequately use this abundance of labor, we can't be intentionally trying to punish people so they will go yank up their bootstraps and become a CEO of their own Fortune 500 company.
 
The fuck? Get your persecution complex in check.

He is absolutely right.

And he was banned... Why? His posts seem tame compared to some of the condescending bullshit in this thread.

I don't even agree with the guy but these topics always degenerate into the same garbage, and the person who opposes the hive-mind gets a ban. Every. Time.
 
He is absolutely right.

And he was banned... Why? His posts seem tame compared to some of the condescending bullshit in this thread.

I don't even agree with the guy but these topics always degenerate into the same garbage, and the person who opposes the hive-mind gets a ban. Every. Time.

A new challenger appears!
 
He is absolutely right.

And he was banned... Why? His posts seem tame compared to some of the condescending bullshit in this thread.

I don't even agree with the guy but these topics always degenerate into the same garbage, and the person who opposes the hive-mind gets a ban. Every. Time.

It gets tiresome when we have to shoot down the same argument in every single thread.

Perhaps we need to have a comprehensive copy/paste obligatory post for every one of these threads that we just post over and over. Until we start to see data differently.
 
He is absolutely right.

And he was banned... Why? His posts seem tame compared to some of the condescending bullshit in this thread.

I don't even agree with the guy but these topics always degenerate into the same garbage, and the person who opposes the hive-mind gets a ban. Every. Time.

Just a few things.

1. It's not always what we see directly in these threads that leads to bans - sometimes it's a PM, or a mod who applies some scrutiny on the poster and realizes that they broke some other rule.

2. Even if it was the case that the thread is the reason they get banned, while I think (personally) it's fine to ask why if you have real concerns, avoid certain pitfalls (like saying hive-mind) - or maybe even PM a mod and ask them directly. I've seen people get banned for maybe asking good questions about a ban, the absolute wrong way.
 
It gets tiresome when we have to shoot down the same argument in every single thread.

Perhaps we need to have a comprehensive copy/paste obligatory post for every one of these threads that we just post over and over. Until we start to see data differently.

It's not even that.

That dude was trotting out the same tired talking points (because they weren't even arguments) like "welfare state!" And "americans are just lazy now!" While being condescending towards the "socio liberals" he thought were persecuting people like him with their "gifs" and "think tanks".

This person was never interested in reasonable debate about the issue, only grandstanding and trolling conservative talking points. THAT'S why he got banned.
 
He is absolutely right.

And he was banned... Why? His posts seem tame compared to some of the condescending bullshit in this thread.

I don't even agree with the guy but these topics always degenerate into the same garbage, and the person who opposes the hive-mind gets a ban. Every. Time.

I don't think the problem was his stance, it was that he came into this thread all-guns-blazing, calling anyone leaving school and making less than $30 an hour lazy, and before anyone had even replied to his post, he was bitching about how left-leaning GAF was. He then proceeded to complain about one-line replies (while completely ignoring the longer, more thoughtful responses), and repeatedly berated the forum as a whole for not sharing his political views.

If he was making a good-faith attempt to debate the issue, then he shouldn't have been banned (and I don't think he would have been), but he was clearly just spoiling for a fight.
 
He is absolutely right.

And he was banned... Why? His posts seem tame compared to some of the condescending bullshit in this thread.

I don't even agree with the guy but these topics always degenerate into the same garbage, and the person who opposes the hive-mind gets a ban. Every. Time.

I... sort of agree with this. It would be nice to have a specific forum for debates with its own ruleset and moderation that would prevent bandwagoning. It is difficult to remain civil when you have a huge numbering of people doing the internet equivalent of shouting at you; there's just too many to cope with.
 
Unionization doesn't necessarily lead to prosperity. It worked great in countries such as Germany but caused no end of trouble in countries such as the UK. Speaking of the car manufacturing industries, one rose to great heights the other nearly finished off.

Not to say I don't agree with the article.

British unions were too political and American unions took up whole industries and sectors instead of just specific businesses ('locals' are a poor replacement). American labour laws to this day are very Parisian-type top-down (government to worker). When you have political parties that are funded almost entirely by corporate donations and special interest groups, that becomes a problem. I don't think this is the most efficient way of doing things.
 
I don't think the problem was his stance, it was that he came into this thread all-guns-blazing, calling anyone leaving school and making less than $30 an hour lazy, and before anyone had even replied to his post, he was bitching about how left-leaning GAF was. He then proceeded to complain about one-line replies (while completely ignoring the longer, more thoughtful responses), and repeatedly berated the forum as a whole for not sharing his political views.

If he was making a good-faith attempt to debate the issue, then he shouldn't have been banned (and I don't think he would have been), but he was clearly just spoiling for a fight.

That's the impression I got as well.
 
I... sort of agree with this. It would be nice to have a specific forum for debates with its own ruleset and moderation that would prevent bandwagoning. It is difficult to remain civil when you have a huge numbering of people doing the internet equivalent of shouting at you; there's just too many to cope with.

This isn't reddit or 4chan. The forum IS well moderated, and there aren't so many people posting that it's "impossible to defend" an unpopular viewpoint.

Poligaf in particular is fairly slow moving (outside of elections and debates) and it's very easy to give and get well reasoned debate there, if that's what you're interested in.

But of course, if all you want is to act butthurt and complain about how left the forum is then yeah, you're going to get dogpiled on.
 
A new challenger appears!

It's not even that.

That dude was trotting out the same tired talking points (because they weren't even arguments) like "welfare state!" And "americans are just lazy now!" While being condescending towards the "socio liberals" he thought were persecuting people like him with their "gifs" and "think tanks".

This person was never interested in reasonable debate about the issue, only grandstanding and trolling conservative talking points. THAT'S why he got banned.

If you think that he was banned for not wanting an reasonable debate but rather grandstanding and trolling, why are you posting the bolded?

The bolded is poisonous in threads like this.
 
If you think that he was banned for not wanting an reasonable debate but rather grandstanding and trolling, why are you posting the bolded?

The bolded is poisonous in threads like this.

Mostly humor. And the post I responded to came off ALSO as a bunch of butthurt whining with no substance.

"he's absolutely right!" "nothing he said was that bad!" "Gaf hivemind wtf!"

I'm pretty sure I just went into why he was NOT "completely right" , had virtually no argument at ALL, was dismissive and condescending to literally everyone and was barely better than trolling.

If you've been reading the thread up to this point and missed all that in a rush to defend the dearly departed, then yeah, I'm going to not take your post seriously.
 
This is the problem with America. Its amusing that the nation is so against a "classless" society when 80% of the population describes themselves as "middle class". Its hilarious how they even divided it to "upper middle class" and "lower middle class".

America, United Kingdom, and Japan all have really high poverty rates for first world nations. The reason for this is due to the fact that these nations do not understand what life is like for so many of their countrymen.



They really don't. When the minimum wage is brought up it increases wages below it as well. Contrary to what Americans believe the free market doesn't distribute wages, the business owners do. And if people do not ask for more piece of the pie they'll keep the pie to themselves.


'Class' doesn't mean what you think it means in the United States.
Prices rise and offset minimum wage gains.
Supply and demand is the mechanism by which wages are distributed.
 
Mostly humor. And the post I responded to came off ALSO as a bunch of butthurt whining with no substance.

"he's absolutely right!" "nothing he said was that bad!" "Gaf hivemind wtf!"

I'm pretty sure I just went into why he was NOT "completely right" , had virtually no argument at ALL, was dismissive and condescending to literally everyone and was barely better than trolling.

If you've been reading the thread up to this point and missed all that in a rush to defend the dearly departed, then yeah, I'm going to not take your post seriously.
I didnt defend him at all, I was just questioning your mandate to criticize someone for not discussing the issue at hand but rather trolling, with regards to your other post.

Humor in itself is not a problem but the jokes stacks on top of each other in threads like this.
 
Being in the automotive industry, I've seen unions do far more harm than good. Too much power put in the hands of those that don't really understand the industry. In the end you just create a disparity where the unionized companies are not competitive with the non-unionized for obvious reasons. Maybe its a bit different in the service industry, but in manufacturing in a globalized economy it doesn't work.

Raise the minumum wage and the wages of skilled labour will raise too. Companies will always pay more to get someone smart and positive running their expensive machines, compared to the people who work mcjobs.
 
'Class' doesn't mean what you think it means in the United States.
Prices rise and offset minimum wage gains.
Supply and demand is the mechanism by which wages are distributed.

Wages aren't only determined by supply and demand, or rather not only determined by efficient markets of it as I'm assuming you're implying. Bargaining power can be more shifted towards one party over the other and it was especially exacerbated during the recession when news and companies were telling people how they should be thankful to even have a job... Owners gained an unfair bargaining chip during the recession due to the fear that was induced by the media.
 
I didnt defend him at all,

YOU didn't, but Maxim726X most certainly did, and rushing to defend the guy without understanding why, claiming he was correct in his persecution complex when he clearly was NOT, and calling out all of gaf as a "hive mind" is the reason why i responded to him the way I did. As far as humor goes, that comment was fairly inoffensive. I could have been really nasty about it if that was what I was going for.

I was just questioning your mandate to criticize someone for not discussing the issue at hand but rather trolling, with regards to your other post.

The trolling was only part of the problem. Note that BEFORE that guy got banned I called him out for willful ignorance, which is inexcusable.

Humor in itself is not a problem but the jokes stacks on top of each other in threads like this.

...and? Are Jokes and humor against the TOS now? Deal with it.
 
Being in the automotive industry, I've seen unions do far more harm than good. Too much power put in the hands of those that don't really understand the industry. In the end you just create a disparity where the unionized companies are not competitive with the non-unionized for obvious reasons. Maybe its a bit different in the service industry, but in manufacturing in a globalized economy it doesn't work.

Raise the minumum wage and the wages of skilled labour will raise too. Companies will always pay more to get someone smart and positive running their expensive machines, compared to the people who work mcjobs.

Unions aren't perfect, and I don't think there's a right or wrong view about their viability. You raise an important issue by mentioning the globalized economy though; I, like many others, would contest that the way countries have approached globalization through 'lowest regulation and lowest taxes, come here!' is a dangerous route and it should be regulated sufficiently. I find it funny how companies aren't for instance taxed on their off-shore production essentially encouraging the practice. I love Stiglitz's books on the matter and find it very true in how an extreme version of a globalized economy with no capital controls, extremely low regulation, no unions etc. would essentially suggest a scenario in which, in this case, American workers would be paid at the same level as Vietnamese workers for instance. Just some food for thought but that's for another topic entirely I guess. : )
 
This isn't reddit or 4chan. The forum IS well moderated, and there aren't so many people posting that it's "impossible to defend" an unpopular viewpoint.

I'm not saying this forum isn't well-moderated. I think this forum is excellently well-moderated, the best of any internet community I know. However, different topics of discussion require different aspects of moderation, and I think sometimes that 'ideological' debate on GAF perhaps requires more specialized attention. This isn't calling out the staff at all, given they do an excellent job and probably don't have the spare resources to dedicate to such an endeavour, but it is to say that there is a noticeable problem with one-sidedness that often leads to bans of a baited outsider.

As for saying there aren't many people, I count 42 posters who made more than 2 posts in this thread (and thus could be said to be having a conversation in the truer sense of the word). Of those, aside from Hibachi himself, only a single one agreed with Hibachi. That's 20-1 in this conversation - have you ever tried arguing solo with 20 people?

Poligaf in particular is fairly slow moving (outside of elections and debates) and it's very easy to give and get well reasoned debate there, if that's what you're interested in.

PoliGAF is a) U.S.A. specific (or U.K. specific with U.K. PoliGAF), when issues might want to be discussed from an international or general viewpoint, b) dedicated to discussion about politics as well as policies, and many people dislike and avoid discussion about the former while being quite interested in the latter, and c) hidden away in the communities forum where a surprisingly large amount of users don't go (presumably because they don't feel part of that community).

But of course, if all you want is to act butthurt and complain about how left the forum is then yeah, you're going to get dogpiled on.

I don't think Hibachi handled it the best way, but I also think it's difficult to under those circumstances. I also think that there were a number of other posters who I won't name who made similarly bad posts to Hibachi's, if less in quantity.
 
The CEPR is Soros-funded entity- too much political baggage to be taken seriously.

should we completely dismiss everything that comes out of conservative think tanks Like CATO, Heritage, American Enterprise, and Brookings right off the bat as well? or actually deconstruct their arguments?
 
Wages aren't only determined by supply and demand, or rather not only determined by efficient markets of it as I'm assuming you're implying. Bargaining power can be more shifted towards one party over the other and it was especially exacerbated during the recession when news and companies were telling people how they should be thankful to even have a job... Owners gained an unfair bargaining chip during the recession due to the fear that was induced by the media.


Yes, I agree with that. Collective bargaining can and does influence wages. But it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with demand. See GM and Chrysler for examples of how the UAW wrecked the industry. The UAW and auto execs weren't living in reality.
 
I... sort of agree with this. It would be nice to have a specific forum for debates with its own ruleset and moderation that would prevent bandwagoning. It is difficult to remain civil when you have a huge numbering of people doing the internet equivalent of shouting at you; there's just too many to cope with.

Hitachi wasn't exactly the bastion of sound reasoning and well-worded arguments. He barely posted twice in the topic and he was already jumping to the "GAF LEANS LEFT LOL" defense, far before he was being "dogpiled" on.

You don't get banned for having well thought out and reasoned arguments defending a viable viewpoint. You get banned for sweeping generalizations, condescension, blatant disregard for logical counterarguments, and using all of these to become the center of attention of the entire topic.
 
Prices rise and offset minimum wage gains.

This is only true if you believe capitalism is a dictatorship of capital. While it may indeed in practice come close to that, no liberty loving individual would advocate the practice of such capitalism. You see, capitalists claim that prices are not fixed by capitalists at their pleasure because they have to compete amongst each other. If an increase in wages for unskilled labor leads to a rise in aggregate demand, then businesses have a decision to make. They can raise prices, or they can try to meet that demand by increasing output. If there is competition, then it is rational for a business to try to meet that demand by increasing output rather than by raising prices (and thus becoming less competitive). And a company which meets increased aggregate demand by producing more is unlikely to reduce its supply of labor.

And, indeed, there is evidence that the result of increasing minimum wages does not cause a rise in prices or reduced low-wage employment.

See, e.g.: http://www.nber.org/papers/w3997
http://www.nber.org/papers/w4509

Ultimately, however, we simply have to ask ourselves whether our society should be one in which individuals who contribute full-time employment to the society deserve a decent standard of living. I think most people would say yes (and I would immediately dislike any cretin who said no). I do agree, however, that the minimum wage is probably not the most effective way to achieve that aim, precisely because it has to be filtered through capital which has ways of recouping for itself the cost resulting in somewhat of a wash. I would prefer direct government guarantees (including a program that offered a job to any individual within it at a specified living wage) in tandem with exceedingly high tax rates on exceedingly high incomes.
 
I'm not saying this forum isn't well-moderated. I think this forum is excellently well-moderated, the best of any internet community I know. However, different topics of discussion require different aspects of moderation, and I think sometimes that 'ideological' debate on GAF perhaps requires more specialized attention. This isn't calling out the staff at all, given they do an excellent job and probably don't have the spare resources to dedicate to such an endeavour, but it is to say that there is a noticeable problem with one-sidedness that often leads to bans of a baited outsider.

As for saying there aren't many people, I count 42 posters who made more than 2 posts in this thread (and thus could be said to be having a conversation in the truer sense of the word). Of those, aside from Hibachi himself, only a single one agreed with Hibachi. That's 20-1 in this conversation - have you ever tried arguing solo with 20 people?

Check out my posts on gaming side regarding the WiiU and nintendo's financial prospects sometime. This thread is amateur hour.

PoliGAF is a) U.S.A. specific (or U.K. specific with U.K. PoliGAF), when issues might want to be discussed from an international or general viewpoint, b) dedicated to discussion about politics as well as policies, and many people dislike and avoid discussion about the former while being quite interested in the latter, and c) hidden away in the communities forum where a surprisingly large amount of users don't go (presumably because they don't feel part of that community).

USA and UK specific is simply the way the entire forum leans, not just poligaf. There's no threads for smaller political issues internationally because the interest simply isn't there. If you wish to discuss it, create the thread.

As for community, that's a common criticism (that good threads get "buried" in community and suffer from interest) but presuming the slower pace is due to "lack of a feeling of community" isn't really accurate. It's an issue with community as a whole, not Poligaf. BEFORE the current structure, Poligaf was routinely on the first page or so of OT and had a lot more activity.

I don't think Hibachi handled it the best way, but I also think it's difficult to under those circumstances. I also think that there were a number of other posters who I won't name who made similarly bad posts to Hibachi's, if less in quantity.

Hibachi handled it just about as badly as one could have handled it. Had I not been hungover and browsing from bed with a smartphone, I would have gotten involved a lot earlier- but it wouldn't have made a difference. There were more than enough posters making well reasoned arguments there.

But like I said, conservative opinions aren't the problem. There are conservative and libertarian posters here, some that have been here as long as I have or longer. THOSE posters can air their opinions freely because they back them up with facts and don't act like asshats when challenged on their opinions. And this being a discussion forum, you can't make a post about what you like to eat for breakfast without a defense force for lunch and dinner showing up.
 
Yes, I agree with that. Collective bargaining can and does influence wages. But it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with demand. See GM and Chrysler for examples of how the UAW wrecked the industry. The UAW and auto execs weren't living in reality.

Sure, and it's ebbed and flowed in regards to who has the upper hand for the most part.
 
should we completely dismiss everything that comes out of conservative think tanks Like CATO, Heritage, American Enterprise, and Brookings right off the bat as well? or actually deconstruct their arguments?



Not necessarily. But I don't trust anything Soros promotes. It'd be like me looking to Sean Hannity for a balanced perspective. No. And BTW, Brookings has leaned both directions over the years so I wouldn't call it conservative by definition. Strobe Talbott is the current president.
 
Not necessarily. But I don't trust anything Soros promotes.

That sounds like a personal issue, not a problem with the data. You have an issue with the facts, then deconstruct the argument. Retreating into "I don't trust soros so it must be shit!" is lazy at best.

It'd be like me looking to Sean Hannity for a balanced perspective.

We're not discussing who can give the most "balanced perspective", we're talking reliable facts and data. We're not discussing whether or not you "trust" MSNBC or Fox News here, we're talking about reliability of hard data. Again, Sean Hannity wants to throw out facts and figures, I can look at those and make a judgement. Relying on how much of an asshole I do or do not think he is to make that judgement for me is lazy.

No. And BTW, Brookings has leaned both directions over the years so I wouldn't call it conservative by definition. Strobe Talbott is the current president.

you may not, some people might disagree with you. I consider them more conservative than not, but this doesn't matter, since whether they lean left or right means little when discussing the validity of their conclusions.
 
This is only true if you believe capitalism is a dictatorship of capital. While it may indeed in practice come close to that, no liberty loving individual would advocate the practice of such capitalism. You see, capitalists claim that prices are not fixed by capitalists at their pleasure because they have to compete amongst each other. If an increase in wages for unskilled labor leads to a rise in aggregate demand, then businesses have a decision to make. They can raise prices, or they can try to meet that demand by increasing output. If there is competition, then it is rational for a business to try to meet that demand by increasing output rather than by raising prices (and thus becoming less competitive). And a company which meets increased aggregate demand by producing more is unlikely to reduce its supply of labor.

And, indeed, there is evidence that the result of increasing minimum wages does not cause a rise in prices or reduced low-wage employment.

See, e.g.: http://www.nber.org/papers/w3997
http://www.nber.org/papers/w4509

Ultimately, however, we simply have to ask ourselves whether our society should be one in which individuals who contribute full-time employment to the society deserve a decent standard of living. I think most people would say yes (and I would immediately dislike any cretin who said no). I do agree, however, that the minimum wage is probably not the most effective way to achieve that aim, precisely because it has to be filtered through capital which has ways of recouping for itself the cost resulting in somewhat of a wash. I would prefer direct government guarantees (including a program that offered a job to any individual within it at a specified living wage) in tandem with exceedingly high tax rates on exceedingly high incomes.

I don't think anyone owes me anything. I think society works best when people are rewarded relative to their effort and skill set. The natural distribution of talent in a given population will always exhibit inequalities. That will never change. IMO, the fairest way to address that issue is by maximizing equality of opportunity. After that, it has to be up to individuals...Their talent, their desire, their will.
 
USA and UK specific is simply the way the entire forum leans, not just poligaf. There's no threads for smaller political issues internationally because the interest simply isn't there. If you wish to discuss it, create the thread.

Apologies, I wasn't clear enough specifically on this part. Sometimes, a user may want to discuss things from an international viewpoint and not a domestic one. This may not make the topic small - i.e., the financial sector and its role in the 2008 crisis is a popular topic, but it certainly isn't just restricted to the U.S.A./U.K.. I meant that, rather than, say, education reform in Sweden.

As for community, that's a common criticism (that good threads get "buried" in community and suffer from interest) but presuming the slower pace is due to "lack of a feeling of community" isn't really accurate. It's an issue with community as a whole, not Poligaf. BEFORE the current structure, Poligaf was routinely on the first page or so of OT and had a lot more activity.

If that's the case, perhaps a special request could be made to move that particular thread from Community. I feel that wouldn't be such a bad move because it's less of a 'community' than most other community threads, given a large feature is vehement disagreement.

But like I said, conservative opinions aren't the problem. There are conservative and libertarian posters here, some that have been here as long as I have or longer. THOSE posters can air their opinions freely because they back them up with facts and don't act like asshats when challenged on their opinions. And this being a discussion forum, you can't make a post about what you like to eat for breakfast without a defense force for lunch and dinner showing up.

I don't think that conservative opinions are the problem, I think the lop-sided representation of right/left on this forum, and the lack of a mechanism to bottleneck whichever side is over-represented, leads to some awful dog-piling, which just makes the burden of polite and considered conversation much harder for right-wing GAFers than left-wing GAFers. It's relatively easy to be polite and courteous when everyone is on your side, it becomes more difficult when you are alone and a large number of people are effectively just shouting you down. This doesn't stop conservative and libertarian posters, but those that are still around have had to display a much greater capability for level-headed conversation than liberal and socialist posters; this seems unfair and in the long-run is a self-perpetuating problem.

Apologies for snipping the rest of your post, it's because it's stuff I broadly agree with.
 
I don't think anyone owes me anything. I think society works best when people are rewarded relative to their effort and skill set.

Working a full time job requires effort and contributes to society. If you've ever eaten at a restaurant or shopped at a grocery or retail store, your quality of life has been improved by people making minimum wage.

We're not talking about anybody "owing" anybody anything. We are talking about people who contribute the same effort to society as everybody else. Nor are we talking about rewarding them equally to people with better skill sets. You are addressing a straw man that has nothing to do with whether a society should reward people who work full time with a decent standard of living.
 
That sounds like a personal issue, not a problem with the data. You have an issue with the facts, then deconstruct the argument. Retreating into "I don't trust soros so it must be shit!" is lazy at best.



We're not discussing who can give the most "balanced perspective", we're talking reliable facts and data. We're not discussing whether or not you "trust" MSNBC or Fox News here, we're talking about reliability of hard data. Again, Sean Hannity wants to throw out facts and figures, I can look at those and make a judgement. Relying on how much of an asshole I do or do not think he is to make that judgement for me is lazy.



you may not, some people might disagree with you. I consider them more conservative than not, but this doesn't matter, since whether they lean left or right means little when discussing the validity of their conclusions.



You deny that data and reality can be distorted; or presented in a one-sided manner? My time is limited, so I filter as much bullshit out of my reading as possible.

You called Brookings conservative. I only responded to offer perspective.
 
You deny that data and reality can be distorted; or presented in a one-sided manner?

Of course it can. and I said as much. If hannity wants to throw out facts and figures, I can judge those facts and figures on their own merit without retreating into "it's hannity" and dismissing everything he says.

Your position is even worse, since Soros doesn't have anything to even DO with the data outside of providing funding. He's not involved with the research itself, nor is he it's mouthpiece, yet that's enough for you to dismiss literally everything out of that institute.

My time is limited, so I filter as much bullshit out of my reading as possible.

and yet you say this while posting on GAF. Perhaps detailed political discussion is not for you, if your time is that limited.

I'd love to continue this particular back and forth, but apparently there's a tila tequila sex tape out that I was unaware of that requires my attention.
 
I just wonder how people are going to take it when technology ultimately replaces their jobs. I guess the concept of a post-working society is too much for people.

Here in Nevada, we have self-driving vehicles and flying robots. I bet in ten to twenty years, not one bus, taxi, delivery truck driver, etc will have human workers in them. Those flying drones will definitely get rid of all the fire fighters, and more delivery people. I also heard that the fast food / coffee serving industry wants to get rid of all human manual workers, and have the technology right now to do it. There are a lot more industries that could also do the same.

It's definitely an employer's market where they have a choice of outsourcing oversees and/or using robots, instead of using pesky humans.
let's pretend everything is automated starting tomorrow (which like you said, is actually slowly happening). Our food, clothes and shelter needs are provided by an ever shrinking number of people who keep the machines running and stuff working correctly. What do we do with the all the unemployed people? We as a society really dont have an answer right now. At some point, we need to stop working for the system and have the system work for us.

The argument that people are just lazier today than 50 years ago is crazy to me. I think if there are an increasing number of apathetic individuals, its a direct result of the outdated system were living in. The role of the worker and how people contribute to society is archaic and its only going to get worse for the people at the bottom.
 
Of course it can. and I said as much. If hannity wants to throw out facts and figures, I can judge those facts and figures on their own merit without retreating into "it's hannity" and dismissing everything he says.

Your position is even worse, since Soros doesn't have anything to even DO with the data outside of providing funding. He's not involved with the research itself, nor is he it's mouthpiece, yet that's enough for you to dismiss literally everything out of that institute.



and yet you say this while posting on GAF. Perhaps detailed political discussion is not for you, if your time is that limited.

I'd love to continue this particular back and forth, but apparently there's a tila tequila sex tape out that I was unaware of that requires my attention.
Effort reward dynamic is broken when you look at public school teachers, non profit workers, and food service workers, such as line cooks, all whom work very hard hours for little pay commensurate.
 
let's pretend everything is automated starting tomorrow (which like you said, is actually slowly happening). Our food, clothes and shelter needs are provided by an ever shrinking number of people who keep the machines running and stuff working correctly. What do we do with the all the unemployed people? We as a society really dont have an answer right now. At some point, we need to stop working for the system and have the system work for us.

The argument that people are just lazier today than 50 years ago is crazy to me. I think if there are an increasing number of apathetic individuals, its a direct result of the outdated system were living. The role of the worker is archaic and its only going to get worse for the people at the bottom.

That's only true if you belive in technological unemployment, which most people don't.
 
The CEPR is Soros-funded entity- too much political baggage to be taken seriously.

You should look at the article though since its a review of minimum wage scholarship over the past 30 years. I am not really sure how that portion can't be taken seriously

I don't think anyone owes me anything. I think society works best when people are rewarded relative to their effort and skill set. The natural distribution of talent in a given population will always exhibit inequalities. That will never change. IMO, the fairest way to address that issue is by maximizing equality of opportunity. After that, it has to be up to individuals...Their talent, their desire, their will.

Not sure how you do that without a massive redistribution of wealth. Poverty is a barrier to getting out of poverty because it puts so much stress on a person that it inhibits their cognitive function. Some interesting studies have been done on this. I think its backed up by the fact that the achievement gap in schools is a really an economic gap.
 
You should look at the article though since its a review of minimum wage scholarship over the past 30 years. I am not really sure how that portion can't be taken seriously



Not sure how you do that without a massive redistribution of wealth. Poverty is a barrier to getting out of poverty because it puts so much stress on a person that it inhibits their cognitive function. Some interesting studies have been done on this. I think its backed up by the fact that the achievement gap in schools is a really an economic gap.

Good point. That view sort of breaks down when you realize that there is not "equality of opportunity", nor is there anything close to it.

Those born in poverty are likely to stay in poverty. Those born into wealth are likely to stay wealthy- ironically more so than in countries like the UK with more defined class systems. The US has very poor social mobility when compared to many countries in europe.

Part of the reason this is, from the article:

A recent report by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development points out that the United States is one of only three rich countries that spends less on disadvantaged students than on other students — largely because education funding for elementary and secondary schools in the United States is tied to local property taxes. By definition, poor neighborhoods end up with badly funded schools. In general, the United States spends lots of money on education, but most of it is on college education or is otherwise directed toward those already advantaged in various ways.

Could you fix this? certainly. But the only way to do this is like you said, though a massive redistribution of wealth, and "socialism!!"
 
All the more reason why we cannot treat low skilled and unemployed people like shit.
Until we figure out how to adequately use this abundance of labor, we can't be intentionally trying to punish people so they will go yank up their bootstraps and become a CEO of their own Fortune 500 company.

The problem lies in using starvation as an incentive to work. We'll inevitably have more people than work required to produce goods (which in reality we're already in that situation) and sudden genocide of the population isn't going to fix or help that. We've transitioned to a manufacturing/agricultural economy to a service based one, and even that is being outsourced.

Its a boogeyman of a word but we're leading towards a Post-scarcity economy. Not only will production but even service will be automated. I mean hell look at most burger flipping jobs or barista jobs. People are being literally paid to have a machine make coffee, and then then pass that coffee to a person. Is a non-job. It's busy work. It's a piss poor way of treating labor. But they have to do it because if they don't they'll starve. Most jobs out there can be done automatically. Hell, we're even having people check out their own groceries for the past 10 years.

When we reach a point where the majority of manufacturing or even service has become automated, what is the rest of society supposed to do? Just kindly die off? To me it seems thats what a lot of people want the goal to be.

There's gotta be a change in how we view work. Take farming. Say you're born on a farm and you're told by your folks that you need to work on the farm because if you don't we'll starve. That's how farming worked for thousands of years. Now with technology we have machines and methods that can produce yields thousandfold what a farming family could ever produce. What incentive would you have when told, "Hey you need to work on this farm and do this job, because its what we do." We live in a society where we're told, you have to work, because thats what we've always done.

Well what happens when you live in a society where most of the work is automated, yet you're told that you still need to find work, because even though we've got the production and service handled, you still need to work or die?

Show me a graph since the 1900s where high amounts of unemployement has ever shown a reduction in productivity. No matter what happens to the workforce, productivity marches on going up and up. This shows we're reaching a point where there will be more people than jobs available. And when that happens what do we do? Just let people die because there's too many of us? Of course not, all those people need to "buy" things to keep the economy going.

So whats the solution? Well we need to change our view on how the culture of what "work" means. It's pretty simple but culturally its very repugnant. We no longer use starvation as incentive to work. We feed our people, we clothe them, we shelter them. If they want luxuries then they can work for them. The fact is we KIND of do that already. We call it anything but welfare or a living wage. We have to find "reasons" to justify why we're giving money away with our tax dollars. We call it SNAP because food is important. We call it disability because people aren't all physically the same. We provide money for children because kids be important, yo. We provide Medicaid because its good to heal the sick.

But of course that opens questions, "what is a luxury?" I guess I'm not smart enough to decide what constitutes as a luxury or not. But maybe as a whole we can agree upon that.

The thing is people are pretty fluid on what the definition of "good enough" is. Some people want more things, some people just want to make sure they have a meal every day.

If everyone had the same footing in terms of basic necessities: shelter, food, clothing. Do you think that it would destroy us economically? That nobody would be incentivized to "bootstrap" themselves to a higher position to aquire higher end luxuries? Of course not. There's always going to be people that want more, and they'll work for more. But that doesn't mean there aren't people that are satisfied, and if they are satisfied then so what? Does everyone have to follow the same path in life? You take care of everyone's basic needs and then that will free up the market for others that want "more"

Of course this is all incoherent rambling utopia talk. But the bottom line is, jobs will become more scarce as productivity becomes less scarce. We can either just keeping people starving and doing busy work to get by or we can take care of those needs and let the people who want more do more.
 
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