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[Sethista]

I am of the opinion that any religious ritual is indoctrination, no matter how small, like prayer, baptism or first communion.

I recently had a baby, and being an atheist, I agreed with my wife to have her baptized, my only demand was that we had to do it with her being a baby still, so she wouldnt fully understand what was going on. My wife is religious, so out of respect I accepted to it, and I even married her in a church. For that and other reasons I consider myself a pretty respectful person when it comes to religion.

My family started coming in for the baptism, and one of my family members brought a cruxfix and a little bible for my kid, and I drew the line there, its a little much, so I protested. Not passionately mind you, just said I thought it was too much.

The first answer from that person was "Respoect Sethista, respectt"

That got me pissed. I accomodate people al lthe time, and never complain, but this is my kid, and until what point does respect mean "do everything we say or else we will accuse you of not respecting us" ? Its easy to talk about the nuances of big atheism and religion issues, but this day to day stuff is where these points actually matter in an execution level.

WHat other instances like this you went through GAF? and where do you see the line of respect and forcing down a believe?

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

So you think

I am of the opinion that any religious ritual is indoctrination, no matter how small, like prayer, baptism or first communion.

and you let your baby get indoctrinated and put into the church because the kid had no idea what was going on? Wouldn't you decide to have them choose for themselves later down the line if you felt this way?

I'm not following.

Also, you're in for a rude awakening if your wife is religious and wanted your kid to get baptized, the fun is only starting.

But yea, that family member was rude.

 

[John Kowalski]

Respect up my bloody arse. Religious text and imagery is way over the line. Imprinting sanctity on anything is way over the line. Talk about it as a historian would, or don't at all.

 

[Skyzard]

Pretty hypocritical thing for the family member to say.

Take a knee, atheist.

 

[Robin64]

Talk about a lack of respect from that family member for your beliefs.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I wouldn't have let a child of mine be baptized until they were of a capacity to make that decision themselves. I respect one's choice to be religious, but not the forcing of its implications onto another.

 

[Siegcram]

I don't understand your concept of indoctrination. Or why you agreed to it.

 

[Henkka]

I don't think you have to tolerate other people pushing religion on your kid, but I don't see why you couldn't have just accepted the Bible and crucifix and put them in some closet. It's not like the baby knows or cares, no reason to have any conflict at all. Maybe your wife even appreciated the gift, given that she's religious?

 

[ohhthegore]

man I am not looking forward to the day I have a kid and have to deal with all the religious shit mine and my wifes family are going to try and push on us

 

[Brianimaniac]

What kind of asshole brings a bible to a baptism? That's unthinkable!

 

[Skyzard]

I don't think you have to tolerate other people pushing religion on your kid, but I don't see why you couldn't have just accepted the Bible and crucifix and put them in some closet. It's not like the baby knows or cares, no reason to have any conflict at all. Maybe your wife even appreciated the gift, given that she's religious?

It's his family so they'll probably have more contact and he wants to get his views across.

 

[Robin64]

I wouldn't have let a child of mine be baptized until they were of a capacity to make that decision themselves. I respect one's choice to be religious, but not the forcing of its implications onto another.

While I do think Dawkins can go a bit far sometimes and needs to tone it down a bit, where I agree with him is the issue he has with calling babies a "christian baby" or a "muslim baby" or whatever.

 

[Sethista]

So you think



and you let your baby get indoctrinated and put into the church?

I'm not following.

Also, you're in for a rude awakening if your wife is religious and wanted your kid to get baptized, the fun is only starting.

Yes, since it does not matter to me, I wont take the right that my wife has to go through some of these rituals with my kid, but I dont want her to get communion classes, for example, that will be a problem.

Yes, I know the difficulties ahead, believe me....

 

[God Dayumm]

No idea why you married a religious person if you think she is indoctrinated sheep and religious traditions bother you so much

 

[aly]

I'm baffled that you were okay with baptism but not a cross and a bible. Also I feel like these are issues that should really be hashed out beforehand if your partner is religious and you aren't. Like it seems like a really important thing to some and offensive to others, especially if they place an importance on religious traditions.

 

[Bisnic]

I'm atheist too, but I think you should just have not give a damn. It's just a book and a crucifix, your baby is too young to know the meaning of it or care about it at all. And I doubt this family member of yours will keep bringing them to your house when she's older.

 

[Randam]

Yeah, don't get either why you wanted it to happen as long as she is a baby, instead of waiting and letting her decide it herself.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I'm atheist too, but I think you should just have not give a damn. It's just a book and a crucifix, your baby is too young to know the meaning of it or care about it at all. And I doubt this family member of yours will keep bringing them to your house when she's older.

I think the fear is letting this become norm, and trying to stop the major religious stuff while the kid is young.

If you let it be, by the time the kid is six it's going to be clearly a major part of girls life, and OP doesn't want that to happen to her.

 

[Sethista]

What kind of asshole brings a bible to a baptism? That's unthinkable!

Its not for the baptism, is a gift for the house.

I don't understand your concept of indoctrination. Or why you agreed to it.

Indoctrination for me is anything that leads to constitutes a child as being part of a religion, I agree with Dawkins in this point, there is no muslim or catholic children, they are all being indoctrinated to be those things by being told this is the truth from birth. And I agreed because I think my wife has the right as well to go through some of these rituals she believes will help my kid, but I only agree with some, not others.

I don't think you have to tolerate other people pushing religion on your kid, but I don't see why you couldn't have just accepted the Bible and crucifix and put them in some closet. It's not like the baby knows or cares, no reason to have any conflict at all. Maybe your wife even appreciated the gift, given that she's religious?

The point for me was tht they were talking about keeping the crux in her crib, and let her play with the bible, it has like a soft cover or whatever... that was my main gripe really,

 

[Shuggananas]

I am of the opinion that any religious ritual is indoctrination, no matter how small, like prayer, baptism or first communion.

I recently had a baby, and being an atheist, I agreed with my wife to have her baptized, my only demand was that we had to do it with her being a baby still, so she wouldnt fully understand what was going on. My wife is religious, so out of respect I accepted to it, and I even married her in a church. For that and other reasons I consider myself a pretty respectful person when it comes to religion.

My family started coming in for the baptism, and one of my family members brought a cruxfix and a little bible for my kid, and I drew the line there, its a little much, so I protested. Not passionately mind you, just said I thought it was too much.

The first answer from that person was "Respoect Sethista, respectt"

That got me pissed. I accomodate people al lthe time, and never complain, but this is my kid, and until what point does respect mean "do everything we say or else we will accuse you of not respecting us" ? Its easy to talk about the nuances of big atheism and religion issues, but this day to day stuff is where these points actually matter in an execution level.

WHat other instances like this you went through GAF? and where do you see the line of respect and forcing down a believe?

"don't impose your religion on my child"
or just take the crucifix and bible and burn them, whatevs

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Also I'd have accepted the gifts. The bible is actually an interesting read, whether you believe it or not (I enjoy reading passages as an Atheist). And I find the crucifix to actually be a neat symbol. But I'm weird and love symbolism, religious or not.

 

[ohhthegore]

should have just accepted the cross and bible and threw them in the trash, no one would have known

 

[SocksAndShoes]

Tape the crucifix upside down on your forehead, then jump around the room screaming random phrases in Latin.

They'll stop soon after that.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Tape the crucifix upside down on your forehead, then jump around the room screaming random phrases in Latin.

They'll stop soon after that.

Or they'll knock him out and perform and exorcism

 

[MrChom]

If they want to buy it for your kid then let them, then when you go home put them in a box somewhere, and (if your kid grows up religious) give them to the kid. If the kid grow up atheist, well then no need to do anything. Put them in a box for the charity shop or something.

No harm and no offence all around. Everyone gets to live happily.

Was it disrespectful by you? Probably not...I mean, you were just voicing an opinion. But from the other side people already knew you'd agreed to a christening, and that usually entails small gifts for the child...so you can see where they're coming from.

I can understand what you go through but from the other side...I have a lot of very atheist friends who probably assume I am too. I don't make a song and dance about my beliefs because, well, what's the point? All I'm likely to do is cause offence!

 

[injurai]

The thing you have to realize is heaven and hell is real to believers. It's not something to be taken light or play your odds against. Or even from some it's pascal's wager that keeps them behaving in that manner. Sure a lot of Atheist become militant at first but eventually they simmer down. But for theists there is that ever present aspect of life that can't be taken lightly, so they always feel compelled to make the motions.

If you really do thing those motions are a form of indoctrination realize that these people too were indoctrinated, and all sourcing from a primitive ignorance. I'd spend my attention letting the truth and facts fight for themselves as the kid grows older and not trying to combat off anyone that would try to raise your kid 2 minutes at a time.

 

[DeathoftheEndless]

No idea why you married a religious person if you think she is indoctrinated sheep and religious traditions bother you so much

Yeah.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Yes, since it does not matter to me, I wont take the right that my wife has to go through some of these rituals with my kid, but I dont want her to get communion classes, for example, that will be a problem.

Yes, I know the difficulties ahead, believe me....

You already agreed to the baptism, so I don't know why you went along with it if you didn't want to have any difficulties in the future.

I see Confession, Communion, and Confirmation in your baby's future.

 

[Sethista]

I think the fear is letting this become norm, and trying to stop the major religious stuff while the kid is young.

If you let it be, by the time the kid is six it's going to be clearly a major part of girls life, and OP doesn't want that to happen to her.

This is the best summary of my point.

 

[zeemumu]

Kinda sounds like you're overreacting. It was a cross and and a tiny bible.

Also did you purposely make your username to be an anagram of "atheists" or was that just coincidence? Why you married a religious person, agreed to a baptism, then decided to draw the line at a bible is curious.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

This has little to do with religion and everything to do with pushy family members.

I really hope you (respectfully) told your family member to shove it.

 

[aly]

This is the best summary of my point.

I must admit your point confuses me because you allowed it to start on that road in the first place. I'm also wonder if you will extend these same rules to your wife if these traditions are already so important to her. Why even bother marrying a religious person who you believed to be indoctrinated who placed that type of importance on religious ceremony?

 

[Y-Z]

Isn't a bible a Pretty standard gift at a baptizing? Around here it is when you're Pretty close as a family. Also if you want to educate your kid about the different religions in life a bible might Come in handy.

 

[Siegcram]

Indoctrination for me is anything that leads to constitutes a child as being part of a religion, I agree with Dawkins in this point, there is no muslim or catholic children, they are all being indoctrinated to be those things by being told this is the truth from birth. And I agreed because I think my wife has the right as well to go through some of these rituals she believes will help my kid, but I only agree with some, not others.

So you're okay with tying your child to a religion without her consent, yet accepting baptism gifts is over the line? I mean the family member sounds like an asshat, but you're not exactly displaying internal consistency here.

 

[blankempathy]

I think the fear is letting this become norm, and trying to stop the major religious stuff while the kid is young.

If you let it be, by the time the kid is six it's going to be clearly a major part of girls life, and OP doesn't want that to happen to her.

Ultimately op will be raising the child and will have a bigger influence over his kid only next to his wife. Getting upset over a crucifix and a bible seems silly when you agreed to allowed her to be baptized.

 

[Bisnic]

I think the fear is letting this become norm, and trying to stop the major religious stuff while the kid is young.

If you let it be, by the time the kid is six it's going to be clearly a major part of girls life, and OP doesn't want that to happen to her.

Ok... but I fail to see how a bible and crucifix is any more "major religious stuff" than the actual baptism? I mean, if you're ok with the baptism, might as well let the rest of the religious stuff related to it continue for the duration of the baptism?

Edit: oh, it was a gift? Well, I guess that's a little different. But you could also just accept the gift and throw them in a closet once you're home I guess...

 

[onadesertedisland]

Don't hold fast to an idea that atheism has principles. Atheism is simply a lack of belief. If you raise your children to be curious and to question, they will find their own way regardless, which might be similar to yours or not.

 

[Sethista]

You already agreed to the baptism, so I don't know why you went along with it if you didn't want to have any difficulties in the future.

I see Confession, Communion, and Confirmation in your baby's future.

I must admit your point confuses me because you allowed it to start on that road in the first place. I'm also wonder if you will extend these same rules to your wife if these traditions are already so important to her. Why even bother marrying a religious person who you believed to be indoctrinated who placed that type of importance on religious ceremony?

All about compromise. I cant impose a religion free rule, my wife has her rights too, so she can do some things I dont see as very invasive, and I get to veto some other things I see as invasive, but I do agree it will be a hard road.

haha these questions of why I married her are funny to me, I married her because I love her, and believe we can get to a middle ground on this without divorcing, pretty simple really.

 

[blankempathy]

Isn't a bible a Pretty standard gift at a baptizing? Around here it is when you're Pretty close as a family. Also if you want to educate your kid about the different religions in life a bible might Come in handy.

a cross a bible a rosary etc. I mean it was a baptism ffs. What did op expect? People "pushed" it by giving his daughter those gifts because a baptism is a religious event. Doesnt mean its going to be the norm either.

 

[Sethista]

Ultimately op will be raising the child and will have a bigger influence over his kid only next to his wife. Getting upset over a crucifix and a bible seems silly when you agreed to allowed her to be baptized.

So you're okay with tying your child to a religion without her consent, yet accepting baptism gifts is over the line? I mean the family member sounds like an asshat, but you're not exactly displaying internal consistency here.

Isn't a bible a Pretty standard gift at a baptizing? Around here it is when you're Pretty close as a family. Also if you want to educate your kid about the different religions in life a bible might Come in handy.

I guess that point wasnt clear enough, they wanted to put the crux on her crib and giver the bible to play, its like a toy bible with some religious messages on them... that was my main concern, yes I could just put it in a closet or whatever.

 

[Alienous]

I'd just tell them to cool it, or I'd whisper "God doesn't exist" into my child's ear every night just as they are falling asleep.

 

[Ourobolus]

While I can understand if the child was older - it's a baby. It's hardly indoctrination. Splashing some water on the child and also he or she receiving a gift that he or she cannot possibly appreciate just yet isn't going to ruin the child.

 

[Acorn]

Why do you put so much weight into a ritual you think is bullshit?

 

[pottuvoi]

Yes, since it does not matter to me, I wont take the right that my wife has to go through some of these rituals with my kid, but I dont want her to get communion classes, for example, that will be a problem.

Yes, I know the difficulties ahead, believe me....

My plan is to learn what I can about religions and teach my kid differences between them.
Which share a god, have multiple deities, history of churches.. etc.

If after that he as an adult sees a reason to follow some doctorine, I know he has done some thinking himself and did not just follow single 'truth' that he has been thought his whole life.

 

[Nabbis]

Since you think it's like Harry Potter then you might as well treat it as Harry Potter. Who cares if your kid likes to dress up like Ron Weasly.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

When you say family member, how closely related are they to you and are they aware that you're an atheist and only doing this for your wife? Maybe you should have made that totally clear before the

Spoiler

indoctrination

ceremony so there was no confusion on their part.

Seems like the kind of thing that a close family member would know, and someone a bit more distant might not have realised.

 

[lobdale]

"I respect you. Thanks for the gifts."

Get home, trash.

 

[Shuggananas]

Since you think it's like Harry Potter then you might as well treat it as Harry Potter. Who cares if your kid likes to dress up like Ron Weasly.

that's a bit diminishing towards what religion does to people

 

[Bit-Bit]

As an atheist, I'm not sure I can marry someone who is religious enough to baptize a baby....

I mean, how can you truly respect your wife if you think what she believes in is made up nonsense?

 

[blankempathy]

As an atheist, I'm not sure I can marry someone who is religious enough to baptize a baby....

I mean, how can you truly respect your wife if you think what she believes in is made up nonsense?

Respect doesnt mean you have to see eye to eye on every subject. Its about treating each other as equals regardless of our beliefs.