That kinda depends on where you are but i doubt anyone gives a shit about their sermons and rituals(aside from righteous indignation) in most OECD countries.
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Atheism and R-E-S-P-E-C-T
- Thread starter Sethista
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That kinda depends on where you are but i doubt anyone gives a shit about their sermons and rituals(aside from righteous indignation) in most OECD countries.
Before they showed up at the baptism with gifts was the right time I feel
We've all been indoctrinated with one thing or another
My father was an atheist while my mother was catholic. I'm baptized and did the communion, but my father was always straightforward with me about thinking that none of it was real. No problems here, never really had faith and it was never a drama in my family.
Shuggananas
Banned
religions influence people far more than harry potter fandom
unless JK rowling turned into a guru recently
I truly hope it works out with you and your wife, but it sounds like you need to sit down and really hash out what the boundaries are if you haven't done that already. If a benign and commonplace gesture such as giving a Bible and a crucifix at a baptism has already got you feeling disrespected, I'm not sure what you expect in the future.
It may also be confusing from other family members perspectives when you agreed to a baptism but then still maintain your strong atheist viewpoint, expecting others to understand that. It does send a mixed message of sorts, so maybe explaining that clearly would be helpful.
It's going to be pretty confusing for your child to have two radically different perspectives on things, so you're really going to need to look 10 or 15 years down the road and determine what you're going to be OK with, and where you'd like to line drawn. Ultimately your kid will decide for themselves later.
It may also be confusing from other family members perspectives when you agreed to a baptism but then still maintain your strong atheist viewpoint, expecting others to understand that. It does send a mixed message of sorts, so maybe explaining that clearly would be helpful.
It's going to be pretty confusing for your child to have two radically different perspectives on things, so you're really going to need to look 10 or 15 years down the road and determine what you're going to be OK with, and where you'd like to line drawn. Ultimately your kid will decide for themselves later.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Why did you agree to let your kid be taken up into the religion though (that's what getting baptized does to you)? If I ever have a kid that will not happen.
But yeah, religious people have a notoriously hard time accepting other people's lack of belief and opposition to indoctrination. They talk about respect, but rarely practice it themselves toward atheists.
But yeah, religious people have a notoriously hard time accepting other people's lack of belief and opposition to indoctrination. They talk about respect, but rarely practice it themselves toward atheists.
I understand what your saying, but I guess I just felt that it was kinda inconsistent if that made any sense. I also feel like your issues with the family member are more pushy family members that some religious/ atheism respect problem. Another important thing to note is that it may be a communication issue where you or that person felt you were coming across a totally different way than you did or might have meant. This happens a lot unfortunately.
Sorry if I sounded rude about the marriage thing though. It's simply a fascinating subject to me. I'm not married, but even in dating I've had to explain that my beliefs are important to me and made some compromises while dating an atheist and he did the same for me. I imagine that is much more difficult in a marriage and with a child involved where the parents might not agree in the beliefs to pass on.
Eh, it's a baby, who cares. It's important for the family members and your kid hasn't got a clue whats going on. No harm done.
Save your energy for when your kid is older and indoctrination becomes an actual issue, when your family starts feeding your kid bullshit. That is the moment to take action.
Save your energy for when your kid is older and indoctrination becomes an actual issue, when your family starts feeding your kid bullshit. That is the moment to take action.
A lot of the people here don't seem to be quite getting your stance, but it's the same with me and I totally understand you. My GF is Protestant, part of the United Church of Canada (which is incredibly progressive), and I'm Agnostic. I sometimes attend church services with her because I like the messages in the sermons when they talk about community and togetherness and positivity, and I like the music. But I'm not a believer.
And if I were in your situation, I would do the same thing. I would let my theoretical child be baptized at such a young age if that's what my GF wanted, because there's no harm in it.
blankempathy
Member
Agreed. You are at a baptism. Expect gifts fitting of the event. Unless it was talked about before hand then i think its a bit of an over reaction.
It always depends on the people. I can easily picture another family that situation pushing their views too hard.
Yeah, that's the first mistake.
You should have let your child be a heathen from the start, OP. Now the precedent is set for him having ongoing religious involvement. When exactly do you expect to cut it off?
At this point, the Baptism was for the wife's sake, not the child's. I can see drawing the line at giving the kid a crucifix to hang on the crib and a Bible to play with. Introducing religion to the child should be up to the parents. Giving items to the kid that clearly favor one religion over another when parents want to leave it up to the child is not respecting the parents wishes.
It's not offering of the gift that is offensive. It is the attitude after the gift was declined. If the OP doesn't want things inside his house to influence his kid, it is is his right. Thank them for their sincerity, but make it politely clear that your child's faith is it's own- religious gifts are not appropriate.
For those who say he could take them and hide/get rid of them, why? The earlier he establishes the ground rules with extended family, the better for everyone. I agree white lies have their place, but not when it comes to faith. One little white lie will only delay the uncomfortable conversation. What happens when family visits and notice the crucifix is not on the crib? How about the next gathering when they bring more religious themed gifts? When they ask to take the child Sunday school? Do people real expect the OP lie in every single case for the sake of their feeling? Why to the families feeling trump his own?
It's not offering of the gift that is offensive. It is the attitude after the gift was declined. If the OP doesn't want things inside his house to influence his kid, it is is his right. Thank them for their sincerity, but make it politely clear that your child's faith is it's own- religious gifts are not appropriate.
For those who say he could take them and hide/get rid of them, why? The earlier he establishes the ground rules with extended family, the better for everyone. I agree white lies have their place, but not when it comes to faith. One little white lie will only delay the uncomfortable conversation. What happens when family visits and notice the crucifix is not on the crib? How about the next gathering when they bring more religious themed gifts? When they ask to take the child Sunday school? Do people real expect the OP lie in every single case for the sake of their feeling? Why to the families feeling trump his own?
Alligatorjandro
Banned
I don't understand why an atheist would marry a religious person. Too many differences.
Mango Positive
Member
Oh, the relief of having married an atheist. Our child is due within the next couple of weeks. I imagine my mom will try to baptize it (we don't know the sex), but we're not too worried. We'll of course "allow the child to make his/her own decision" in regards to religion, but our position will be very clear and well argued.
You actually picked a fight with someone you invited to your kid's baptism for giving them a gift befitting of the religious thing you're doing with your kid?
Even worse, your family member came to the baptism, went out of their way to pick a fitting gift and you complained about it? Bit of a dick move OP. Take the gift, thank him for it and put it in storage for the kid in case he might want it later.
This has nothing to do with respect either, you invite someone for a baptism and they brought a religious gift, that's a logical thing to do.
Even worse, your family member came to the baptism, went out of their way to pick a fitting gift and you complained about it? Bit of a dick move OP. Take the gift, thank him for it and put it in storage for the kid in case he might want it later.
This has nothing to do with respect either, you invite someone for a baptism and they brought a religious gift, that's a logical thing to do.
Its fine, I believe in compromise alot, so I wouldnt let belief get into the way of creating a relationship with someone I like, but everyone has dfferent degrees of acceptance for these things I guess. The bible and crux thing really showed me how much this will be present in the future, and how is the best way to deal, which is a work in progress for me.
Yeah thats why I didnt care anout the baptism, she has no idea what is it about, so Im cool with that.
I hear ya on the older point... Im starting to see its something I need to adress.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
If your daughter ends up wanting to be a Christian, don't be a dick about it.
Probably because his penis was insertinated.
blankempathy
Member
Unfortunatly op didnt state if he had this conversation with his family ahead of time or that if they knew his stance on the matter. If not he probably needs to. Though during the actual event seems like a bad time to establish boundaries.
Everything is indoctrination when it comes to kids.
Same procedure as getting shitty Christmas gifts. Either make sure they know not to beforehand, or break it to them a while later. Not on the day.
When you put it like that, hahaha.
It is true, OP. You've already invited religion into your child's life via the baptism. The gifts are really just an extension of that.
You're sending mixed signals to your family and you can't blame them for that.
TheRagnCajun
Member
You married a christian and made a baby with a christian...you expect us to sympathize with the comprimises that come along that? Have the two of you even talked about this stuff?
I agree the Op and the wife goofed, that the conversation should have happened before. Personally I feel it is better to address it as soon as possible, even if it is awkward that to keep string people along out of politeness.
The family got a Church wedding and a Baptism out of the OP cause he respects them enough to acknowledge their faith is crucial to them. All he is asking for in return is they respect his boundaries too.
blankempathy
Member
Pretty much what ive said. Unless the family knew his stance on the matter op is at fault too. Its like throwing a party on christmas day and inviting people who bring gifts and christmas themed stuff and you get offended because you dont celebrate christmas.
Very good point, OP. It's almost like "If we are tolerant, how tolerant should we be of other peoples' intolerance?"
I think you're in the right. It's your baby after all and you've already been accommodating with your wife's family's faith. I'm glad you're not an arrogant atheist. Although, I don't think getting married in a church is that big a deal either way, they're just pretty places to get married.
Unmasked Ferret
Member
Should have dressed her up in a little devil outfit. You also should have worn a devil outfit and carried a science textbook to knock away the unwelcome gifts.
Be sure to let the family members know that you feel like religious gifts are inappropriate, and that they should respect your rights as a parent to ask them not to give those types of thing to your child.
Be sure to let the family members know that you feel like religious gifts are inappropriate, and that they should respect your rights as a parent to ask them not to give those types of thing to your child.
Risible
Member
You accept the gift, box it up and put it away in the closet. It's not hard. People love drama. Just say "Thank you" and move on with your life.
Everyone in my family knows im an atheist, but they tend to be very dismissive of it, like its a fad.
My family member is a close one, and knew this, so that irked me a little as well that it was a gift to have that crux permanently in the crib, to make sure religion would be around.
I did talk to my wife about all this, Im afraid she will overstep because of the massive backing she has from both the families, meaning everyone believe, and I am the only one that dont. But yes, adressing this with her is the best course of action, for sure
Admiral Woofington
Member
Being atheist you should be striving to teach your kid good values outside of scaring them with religion. There should be little issue to accepting gifts at the baptism and simply like not keeping them around the baby. Talk with your wife but you're basically saying you don't want your kid to go through what your wife adores.
You're gonna have a hard as shit time with her. That's fucking clear. Imagine sundays when you have to go to church and you say you're not going because you don't believe in it and your kid says he/she won't go either because all kids hate going to church. Your wife is gonna give you the stink eye unless you tell your kid to do as she says.
You should really sit with her and discuss the plan now. Stuff you can argue for are things such as once your child can make an informed decision to let them choose whether they wanna stay religious or be atheist.
You're gonna have a hard as shit time with her. That's fucking clear. Imagine sundays when you have to go to church and you say you're not going because you don't believe in it and your kid says he/she won't go either because all kids hate going to church. Your wife is gonna give you the stink eye unless you tell your kid to do as she says.
You should really sit with her and discuss the plan now. Stuff you can argue for are things such as once your child can make an informed decision to let them choose whether they wanna stay religious or be atheist.
blankempathy
Member
And thats fine too but theres a time and a place for that and during a baptism is probably not the right time. His family member probably didnt buy those with the agenda of forcing religion on his daughter. They probably bought it because they thought it was a nice thing to do and because its a baptism. Then again i have no idea if they knew before hand about the entire situation.
AdventureMike
Member
This is correct, though I think the bigger issue is how he handled the situation which presented itself. Part of dealing with family (if you don't want drama) is to choose your battles, let thing slide and keep the peace. If he doesn't want the gifts, just take them, put them away or chuck them. If they want to see the child play with them, bring them out for that time and then put them away again. It's a baby, it won't remember any of this later.
If the OP really wants to offer choice, then once the child grows older, he can explain his beliefs just as I'm sure the mother and other family members will explain theirs.
EDIT:
This is the battle to pick and make clear that you are not going to do that. When they come and ask where it is, you nicely explain to them that you thought it was inappropriate as it is your home and you feel it was over the line. Your wife should have your back on this considering she was aware of your beliefs when you got married. That would be the reasonable thing to do.
Monocle
Member
It's going to be fun raising a kid with someone who might not respect your beliefs about religion as much as you do hers. Hopefully she's willing to compromise on religious issues going forward. Maybe you should have a talk about how you two are going to handle this as your child grows up. Is she going to insist on prayers before bed? Involvement with a local church?
According to the OP the family is very well aware of his Atheist status and don't respect his beliefs. Using the Baptism as another venue to guilt trip the OP into accepting their religion is a shitty thing to do. It was an uncomfortable situation cause the religious folk made it uncomfortable.
What you should have told your wife is that there's no age limit for baptisms (nor do you even have to be alive in some religions), so why not let her choose to get baptized when she's older?
EDIT - And as for the whole respect thing, respect is earned. There's no need to respect someone's silly beliefs just because.
Attaching a crucifix to a crib? I'm fairly okay with religion, but there's no way I'm doing that. Last thing I want my kid seeing every day is the death of a guy. Playing with the bible, not much harm will come from that. Your kid can't read yet, and slobbering over the tale of Jonah and the Whale won't leech Catholicism into his system.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
Some religions are very "into" child baptisms. Depends on the denomination.
My step mom is religious and attends church every week. No one else who grew up in our house is, regardless of Sunday school and first communions when some of my siblings/step siblings were younger. Some of you are acting like religious people are incapable of raising irreligious kids (or getting along with irreligious individuals).
Red Mage
Member
I'm just waiting for the OP's daughter to be old enough to have a friend that goes to Vacation Bible School and invites her. She'll make a cross or something while there, and then bring it home. Afterwards, we'll get a thread about the OP not understanding why his wife kicked him to the couch after he threw down his daughter's gift and explained about her needing to respect his beliefs while stomping on the cross.
blankempathy
Member
Aint that the truth. I love my family and i know they will always be there for me but if i fought with them over every little thing id go crazy. Compromise doesnt always mean you are comprimising who you are. Its not always about being right. I personally go to church once a year with my family because it makes them happy. Thats more important to me then being upset about celebrating something i dont believe in.
bennywhatever
Member
Infant Baptism is indoctrination into the Christian church. It is the willingness of the parents to let the child be Christian. You can't get huffy at other people assuming you want your kid to be Christian.
I agree, they didnt gove the gift during the baptism, it was beforehand at my house, I would never say anything during it, I would wait afterwards. And everyone knows im an atheist, from both families.
Prayer is one of my main concerns, think about it, you are telling your kid to actually talk to the invisible, it helps to solodify the ideia that they exist and are lsitening... So I will have some trouble with that one I suppose, but we dont go to church, so theres that.
-duskdoll-
Member
I get what you're saying, but you kind of opened the flood gates when you let your child get baptized. Your religious family members think that you are ok with your child being a part of the church, you need to talk to them and tell them where you draw the line. It's not really their fault tbh, they're not going to think "well that child is only 1/5 christian, i better tone it down a notch".
I understand where the OP is coming from, because I went through the same thing. In my case both families knew that I am an atheist and that I was allowing the baptism because it made the grandparents happy and because he was too young to remember it. I made sure they knew this.
OP—it's always going to be a bit of a struggle but don't worry too much. It's YOUR child and you can teach her whatever you want.
My son is 13 now and he isn't religious even though both sets of grandparents have tried to push "god" on him. I taught him to be skeptical and to understand that no one person knows the truth about death or what becomes of us after—no matter how hard they try to convince him that they do. IMO this is a little bit more valuable than just saying there is no god.
The Albatross
Member
That is what people give for gifts at baptisms. Often times, money for the future, and small things like the rosary, tiny bibles, and things like that. It's a baptism.
I think that you over-reacted.
I was "raised Catholic" (not really, we went to church, I was baptized, confirmed in the Church, and incidentally went onto study Catholic Theology), but I'm more or less an atheist... I'd say agnostic, but I've always found humor in Chesterton's argument that if you're an agnostic on the day you die, you're an atheist, so for that reason, I'm more or less an atheist. I have a respect for socially normal organized religions (e.g., religions that can exist normally within their own civil society) and generally don't find much of a difference between somebody who adhere's to a particular religious belief and somebody who adhere's to a social norm. Just as I wouldn't be offended if somebody pushed a non-abhorrent social norm on me or my future kids, I wouldn't be upset if somebody pushed a non-abhorrent religious norm on me or my future kids.
My fiance was similarly raised in a "Catholic" house (and I put these things in quotes because both of us come from families that may go to church for tradition or social reason, but the actual Catechism of the Church carries no particular significance for anyone in our family). We're getting married in a church partially for tradition, partially so that our families are content, and also partly so that our kids have an opportunity to choose whether they want to be part of a religious community or not when they come of age. We're going to baptize our kids for similar reasons, so that when they get to be a certain age they can join the church basketball league, go to church events, and then decide "Do I like this?" And if they don't, then I'm not going to push it on them. I really hated CCD as a kid, mostly because I wanted to be home playing videogames, but also met some of my closest friends in CCD and I think it was probably a positive experience for me growing up.
AdventureMike
Member
You got the right of it. We (this forum) seem to have this discussion every year around the holidays. There are some on this board that simply CANNOT handle just letting others celebrate and enjoy something important to them.
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