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[dr3upmushroom]

I thought that atheists became atheists to get away from robed men professing to them from behind podiums?

That's why I find Dawkins a bit of an irritating twat.

 

[Hylian7]

IDK, I've stopped keeping up with all the BS meetings and I've had it with all the in fighting caused because no one seems to be able to agree about what things an atheist should believe. When in reality most of the fights are caused by libertarian atheists Vs. liberal atheists. So Dawkins, while I probably agree with him on many things, I probably disagree with him on quite a few other things as well. I've decided that I'll just be whatever kind of atheist suits me (which happens to be more liberal), and no one atheist figure truly speaks for me.

I would say mostly the same applies for me, and while he generally isn't as popular as Dawkins, I would say Matt Dillahunty is much more reasonable and an atheist figure I can identify with.

 

[kinggroin]

I personally have trouble getting along with people who believe 100% this way or the other. Its fucking irritating and usually a sign of elitism, closed mindedness, and arrogance. These people have got it figured out.

Don't come hard with whatever it is you prescribe to, and the respect will naturally follow, generally.

 

[Abstruse Moose]

It's another thing altogether to wear a pendant with a crossed-out crucifix while standing in front of banners of crossed-out religious symbols. It makes Dawkins look like any other commonplace bigot who believes that their opinion is better than yours.

That's why I find Dawkins a bit of an irritating twat.

You guys do know it's a photoshopped picture, right?

 

[Aikidoka]

Sure, if those meetings don't resemble the Dawkins picture posted above. It's one thing for a large number of mild-mannered atheists to get together and discuss things like raising children in mixed-religion households.

It's another thing altogether to wear a pendant with a crossed-out crucifix while standing in front of banners of crossed-out religious symbols. It makes Dawkins look like any other commonplace bigot who believes that their opinion is better than yours.

Well not all opinions are equal. A religious person's opinion that homosexuals are abominations is not equal to the opinion that they are human beings that deserve equality in society. So, I really don't see a problem with mocking them for it and similar detrimental views they have. Also, it is important to point out that mockery like that wouldn't really happen if religion did not have such legislative control as it has had in a place in a place like America.

I didn't ignore your responses, you simply did not like my own. My point to you was that while I can sympathize with what you or others go through, to compare what you or I experience in this country to what homosexuals or minorities face is disingenuous at best.

I apologize for misunderstanding your part about scientists, it was a tad random for me. No, I wouldn't call a group of scientists meeting to be like that, unless they were meeting for the purpose of community and unity, and not for scientific discussion. If you cannot see the similarities between the atheist meeting and a church meeting, I think that I am beyond reaching an understanding with you.

You absolutely are ignoring what I am saying. Here let me quote my relevant response:

I never claimed that atheists are the only groups discriminated against. Also, many people that come out as atheist to their parents are disowned and kicked out on their own or face other abuse, which is completely analogous to the experiences of many homosexuals in the united states. If you are looking for laws that discriminate, well there are about 8 states that explicitly prevent atheists from holding public office.

And of course we will not reach an understanding when you never provide any reasons for your assertions and go on like a broken record. The similarities are that they both show up a certain times and places, but that's it. They do not share any more significant similarities than a church meeting and a book club meeting.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

No idea why you married a religious person if you think she is indoctrinated sheep and religious traditions bother you so much

This.

It took me until age 33 to find my spouse, but being an atheist (and not wanting kids) were deal breakers for me.

 

[Griss]

Unlikely to ever get married or have a kid, but if I did I'd want to raise it the way my dad raised me.

I was raised Catholic by my mom, and my dad would occassionally tag along to church and crack jokes to me at the back (for which I thought he was so cool, being about 6 at the time).

Eventually at around 11 I asked why he never took church seriously and had stopped going. He said 'Well, I think you're old enough now... You know what I think about god.' And I did, instinctively. I knew he thought it was a load of BS. 'It's a load of BS, and the sooner you're rid of it, the better.'

Asked him why he was okay with raising me religious, and his answers were multiple, and good ones:
1. Your mother and extended family wanted it. Path of least resistance to keeping a happy family together, which is ultimately the most important thing for a child.
2. I was raised highly religious and quickly became atheist in my early teens. It's not a handicap. You grow out of it quickly if you're of a mind to.
3. It's a wonderful social scene growing up.
4. So you wouldn't feel different from other kids or excluded.
5. A huge part of western culture is derived from religion and I wanted you to experience that first-hand.
6. Necessary to get you into your high-school.

 

[Chococat]

But, why...? Atheists are the only group I know of that will attend meetings about what they aren't.

What about Alcoholic's Anonymous? Their no longer alcoholics. They get together to support themselves cope with their new life path. What about cancer survivor groups? They no longer have cancer, yet gather to support each other. Are they "amusing" to you because they get together and reminisce about something they are not?

While religions make it easy to form communities, they are not the only means for people to form communities. Human, being the social animals they are, like being around other people. They gravitate towards those with like interests and experiences. Atheists who get together for friendship, community and to share their life experiences with others. Is that not what religious people do when they have service? Go to make friends, participate in a community, and share their common experiences.

You are also aware there are plenty of "fake" religious people out there. The one who professes a faith in order to be accepted by their family and community. They don't believe, they lie cause they don't want to be excluded, hated and shunned. And those who only practice holiday rituals because it is a family tradition entwined with their culture, not because hard core believers. Do you find those people who gather under the guise that they are religious for community sake, when they really don't believe amusing too?

 

[Red Mage]

I did. I didn't find any evidence supporting the argument you were making. It would be easier if you just gave me a direct example!

Well, since a report by the State Dept didn't work, maybe you're wanting something more... Wikipedia-ish?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Current_situation_.281989_to_present.29

What about Alcoholic's Anonymous? Their no longer alcoholics. They get together to support themselves cope with their new life path. What about cancer survivor groups? They no longer have cancer, yet gather to support each other. Are they "amusing" to you because they get together and reminisce about something they are not?

While religions make it easy to form communities, they are not the only means for people to form communities. Human, being the social animals they are, like being around other people. They gravitate towards those with like interests and experiences. Atheists who get together for friendship, community and to share their life experiences with others. Is that not what religious people do when they have service? Go to make friends, participate in a community, and share their common experiences.

You are also aware there are plenty of "fake" religious people out there. The one who professes a faith in order to be accepted by their family and community. They don't believe, they lie cause they don't want to be excluded, hated and shunned. And those who only practice holiday rituals because it is a family tradition entwined with their culture, not because hard core believers. Do you find those people who gather under the guise that they are religious for community sake, when they really don't believe amusing too?

That's a good one that I had not thought of, although the possibilities for unfortunate implications is rife there, for both sides.

As for your middle point, why I find it amusing is that it perpetuates the notion that atheism is a religion because it is doing something that most religions do. Atheists hate being told that they have a religion, but the ones doing this help create the confusion. Hence I can be amused by it.

As for your last point, it is too broad. If they are going to church for the approval of others, are not young, and are facing nothing in the way of punishment, then I consider them foolish, even if I can sympathize with their fear. If they live where it is illegal, or they are still young, I simply sympathize with them. If you mean simple religious traditions to please relatives for holidays, I consider them to be selfless. Does that answer your questions?

 

[Necromanti]

Well, since a report by the State Dept didn't work, maybe you're wanting something more... Wikipedia-ish?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Current_situation_.281989_to_present.29

That's because that report mainly talked about anti-Muslim discrimination more than anything, which had nothing to do with the point. I also already read through those Wikipedia pages a few minutes ago in anticipation of finding something. I wanted a specific example. I'm still not seeing how they're treated the same.

 

[Gorger]

In those same parts of the world, Christians face the same thing. Most of the rest I addressed below. As for finding it amusing, yes, I do. What do you think that many Sunday school lessons are about? Christianity and the many issues that they face around the world.

Your lack of empathy is staggering and your reasoning incomprehensible.

 

[HelloMeow]

See, here's a prime example of the anti-theism described throughout the topic, where spitefulness towards religion is evident. Very different from atheism.

There is nothing wrong with spirituality. To believe that nothing exists beyond our current human comprehension of reality is as hardline of a stance as believing in a kingdom of clouds and harp-playing angels. Good atheists are like good theists: Both can admit they may be wrong, and neither seeks to disparage the other.

Spitefulness towards religion is not the same as spitefulness towards religious people. Don't take it personally.

And I didn't say anything about believing nothing spiritual exists. The absence of belief is not a belief.

 

[Gorger]

I would say mostly the same applies for me, and while he generally isn't as popular as Dawkins, I would say Matt Dillahunty is much more reasonable and an atheist figure I can identify with.

Matt Dillahunty is great. I remember loving watching his 'The Amazing Experience' show. This guy came from a very religious childhood and was a fundamentalist Christian before he came out as an atheist after sitting down studying the Bible for himself. Many of his family members will still not talk to him.

 

[Chococat]

My point is not to diminish any persecution you have faced, but I find comparing it to what homosexuals and minorities have faced, and continue to face, disrespectful to them.

Your point is diminishing the persecution that atheist face by say when you try to put atheist discrimination on the same level as those of the major faiths. It is a core tenant of the Abrahamic faiths that non-believers are the lowest of the low. Since your open to Wikipedia links, check out the way atheist are persecuted against: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists.

Just a snippet: In both studies, percentages of disapproval of atheists were above those for Muslims, African-Americans and homosexuals.[73] Many of the respondents associated atheism with immorality, including criminal behavior, extreme materialism, and elitism.[74]

So why is it wrong for atheist their plight to be compared to homosexuals and African-American, when studies show atheist are the least trusted and respected group in America?

 

[Necromanti]

Just a snippet: In both studies, percentages of disapproval of atheists were above those for Muslims, African-Americans and homosexuals.[73] Many of the respondents associated atheism with immorality, including criminal behavior, extreme materialism, and elitism.[74]

So why is it wrong for atheist their plight to be compared to homosexuals and African-American, when studies show atheist are the least trusted and respected group in America?

To be fair, I feel a lot safer as an atheist in the US than I do as a gay person. Atheists, at least, haven't had to deal with being lynched or beaten to death for who they are to the same degree, as far as I'm aware. Atheists are mistrusted, but maybe they fly under the radar in a different way that causes them to not be a target of hateful disgust like racial and sexual minorities.

 

[televator]

I would say mostly the same applies for me, and while he generally isn't as popular as Dawkins, I would say Matt Dillahunty is much more reasonable and an atheist figure I can identify with.

My man/woman! Matt is incredible. He and "theoretical bullshit" exercise logic and philosophy in a manner I could only wish I could. AaronRa is also a very good science communicator and defender that I credit for enriching my understanding of evolution. These guys are the guys who should be as famous as Dawkins and Harris within atheism.

 

[Red Mage]

Your lack of empathy is staggering and your reasoning incomprehensible.

My lack of empathy? I completely empathize with them, with their desire to find like minded people, and their desire for community. This does not preclude finding amusement in viewing the situation in a certain light. A man who is being lined up against a wall to be shot certainly empathizes with the person beside him who is in the same predicament. That does not mean that he cannot laugh when the person honestlybturns down a cigarette for health reasons.

I apologized to all of my fellow Gaffers if I offended you. I did not mean that I found amusement in anyone's pain. I simply saw the humor in a group who insists that they are not a religion doing something that perpetuates that they are. The rest of my comments were made in response to other points.

As to Choc, the post after yours explains what I am getting at. Atheists do not suddenly suicide in jail, they are not tied to posts and killed here. That was what I was saying.

As for wikipedia, I'd already offered a state Dept report. I could only offer the big guns after that.

 

[Gorger]

To be fair, I feel a lot safer as an atheist in the US than I do as a gay person. Atheists, at least, haven't had to deal with being lynched or beaten to death for who they are to the same degree, as far as I'm aware. Atheists are mistrusted, but maybe they fly under the radar in a different way that causes them to not be a target of hateful disgust in the same way.

True, but it's also easier to hide your lack of religion than your sexual orientation.

 

[Chococat]

As for your middle point, why I find it amusing is that it perpetuates the notion that atheism is a religion because it is doing something that most religions do. Atheists hate being told that they have a religion, but the ones doing this help create the confusion.

First atheists are not a monolithic groups. It is wrong to pigeon hole their beliefs. Just like a Catholic is different from a Protestant, as they are from a Baptist, etc. Some do want to form a religion with the core tenant that there is no god/s. Other think it is a bunch of malarkey and just want to be left along. Atheism is evolving into a group/religion because of many factors: it gives people politician power, a sense of community, and a basic agree upon set of core tenets you will, not just for them selves, but to educate religious folk what we are not (aka we're not immoral, child molesting, murders just cause we don't believe in any god)..

Hence I can be amused by it.

Your choice of being amused is dismissive as one calling a religion a fairytale. It is poor wording.

As for your last point, it is too broad.

I just wanted to know if you found their positions "amusing" aka if you were laughing at them too for them being silly.

 

[Red Mage]

I just wanted to know if you found their positions "amusing" aka if you were laughing at them too for them being silly.

Well, I answered your question, but you edited out of your quote for some reason.

I also apologized for coming across like I found someone else's pain amusing. If you have been on any message board about religion, atheism is always called or compared to a religion, and half of the board jumps on the person who says that. Those meetings would obviously come across as religious like to most people and so perpetuates that idea. That is all that I found funny. That alone.

 

[injurai]

That's why I find Dawkins a bit of an irritating twat.

He is a public educator on the sciences first. As more and more people demanded him to go up against the grind stone of beliefs he began destructing theism itself.

If you watch enough of his talks, he is quite honest that he doesn't want people to just nod and agree. He wants people to consider and challenge their own beliefs. But he clearly defers to his contemporaries for alternative takes on disbelief. He doesn't make himself out to be a demagogue, of course you as the viewer can erroneously elevate him as that.

Making a strong contextual statement in one moment does not equate to expecting someone to suspend their own free thinking and accept all he has to say. He speaks the way he does because he is dissimenating his experience as a scientist, which is asymmetrical to the language and behavior to the faith mentalities that he often has to engage.

 

[televator]

My lack of empathy? I completely empathize with them, with their desire to find like minded people, and their desire for community. This does not preclude finding amusement in viewing the situation in a certain light. A man who is being lined up against a wall to be shot certainly empathizes with the person beside him who is in the same predicament. That does not mean that he cannot laugh when the person honestlybturns down a cigarette for health reasons.

I apologized to all of my fellow Gaffers if I offended you. I did not mean that I found amusement in anyone's pain. I simply saw the humor in a group who insists that they are not a religion doing something that perpetuates that they are. The rest of my comments were made in response to other points.

Speaking from personal experience, communal support is not exclusive to religion nor should it be. There really shouldn't be anything funny about it. We're a social species, and when you feel like you're the only one who doesn't believe in something the everyone else does... its depressing. Its an inherit yearning one has completely outside and in spite of religious belief. To think less of someone or to be amused by it is actually quite a strange thing and it does come off as a lack of respect or empathy.

Ive been living back in my home town for a few months. Its a small village in Mexico. As such religion is the status quo. The percentage of theists in this town probably comes pretty close to 100% and the fanaticism has been invigorated recently because Christianity has reared its head here. There's this kid who works at my father's store who goes to high school. Hes a big science geek, and me being scientifically minded, he seemed to be drawn to me. A little annoying but he's a good kid. Now, he's told me about having doubts about religion so I let him know I'm an atheist. But it got me thinking... Here's this you kid who has doubts... I'm probably the only one who's here to tell him that it's okay. If I hadn't shown up he'd be alone with his feelings. That's crushing, really.

You don't need religion to need community. Religion isn't the end, rather a means to community. Community is the end unto itself.

 

[Gorger]

I simply saw the humor in a group who insists that they are not a religion doing something that perpetuates that they are. The rest of my comments were made in response to other points.

I would rather say it's pathetic that we actually live in a society where atheists feel the need to come together and form groups for support and to talk because they are forced to live in secrecy or are facing discrimination because of their lack of belief in deities. It has nothing to with them forming a religion nor should it ever be something only exclusive for religions.

I remember being in an open chat once where we were discussing theology and an anonymous Egyptian atheist came on just ecstatic he could speak freely to like-minded people without the risk of being shunned and outcast by his family and community. It kinda dawns on you how bad it is in many parts of the world. In some places Atheism is so unheard of that it can be treated as a mental illness. Like with this Nigerian man who was forcibly committed by his family for coming out as an atheist. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/nigerian-man-says-he-was-declared-insane-being-atheist-n142706

Amusing is just a very poor word to use and it doesn't seem like you're really getting the point.

 

[Walpurgis]

Respect goes both ways. Some atheists belittle religions they dislike (mainly Christianity - like what is happening to an extent in this topic), just as some religious individuals try to force their beliefs. The atheist friends I have respect my beliefs even though they may disagree with them.

In my experience, the only ones that do this are atheists with things like "religion is evil, God is fake, fuck religion", etc. all over the internet. I am not accusing all atheists of behaving this way but it is something that I see online all of the time.

 

[Man God]

The only time I ever felt I missed out from not being raised religious was when I saw all the crazy shit people got when confirmed.

My mom, a deeply spiritual person, went back to her catholic roots when I was still a young boy but never forced any of her children to come along more than once or twice. Churches have always creeped me out though, especially catholic ones and I hate going to them even for weddings and funeral services. The thought of people believing in that garbage while giving up their time and money to these places...yeah.

Even my mom couldn't find it in her heart to stay with the church after the enormity of the sex abuse scandal hit.

Anyways, I've got a lot of deeply religious relatives on both sides of my families, representing four different denominations of Christianity. I'm polite to them, they are largely polite to me. Both of my nephews were Baptized as part of their first birthday celebration, despite neither parent being religious (my sister is probably agnostic, no clue about her husband but his church is a craft beer club) and I never bothered asking why, only that she's friends with the priest from the days when he worked with her program. A couple of relatives gave some slightly religious gifts, there was a bit of polite tension between some of the Catholics and Protestants, but otherwise a normal ass birthday party.

I'm deeply involved with the raising of these children but in some ways their parents are stricter than I am when it comes to make believe. Santa is just a story, tooth fairy ain't real, etc,etc.

 

[Red Mage]

I would rather say it's pathetic that we actually live in a society where atheists feel the need to come together and form groups for support and to talk because they are forced to live in secrecy or are facing discrimination because of their lack of belief in deities.

I remember being in an open chat once where we were discussing theology and an anonymous Egyptian atheist came on just ecstatic he could speak freely to like-minded people without the risk of being shunned and outcast by his family and community. It kinda dawns on you how bad it is in many parts of the world. In some places Atheism is so unheard of that it can be treated as a mental illness. Like with this Nigerian man who was forcibly committed by his family for coming out as an atheist. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/nigerian-man-says-he-was-declared-insane-being-atheist-n142706

Amusing is just a very poor word to use and it doesn't seem like you're really getting the point.

Did you not bother to read what else I wrote? You know what? Forget it. I completely apologize for the remark, because how people act in this country is exactly the way it is in every other part of the world, and viceversa. There can be no humor in any limited situation because there is a situation somewhere that makes it in bad taste.

 

[Necromanti]

In my experience, the only ones that do this are atheists with things like "religion is evil, God is fake, fuck religion", etc. all over the internet. I am not accusing all atheists of behaving this way but it is something that I see online all of the time.

I'd imagine it's the complete inverse of how it is in real life because the Internet provides a socially-acceptable (and usually anonymous) outlet to vent one's frustrations.

 

[Octavianus]

Respect goes both ways. Some atheists belittle religions they dislike (mainly Christianity - like what is happening to an extent in this topic), just as some religious individuals try to force their beliefs. The atheist friends I have respect my beliefs even though they may disagree with them.

I'm ok with you as a person (I don't know you so there's not a whole lot not to be ok with) but I don't respect your believes because they're absolutely ridiculous to me. It's weird to me how people keep implying that I'm personally insulting them somehow.

 

[Chococat]

In my experience, the only ones that do this are atheists with things like "religion is evil, God is fake, fuck religion", etc. all over the internet.

Do you understand why atheist say those things?

Say you tell me "I believe in God". I reply "I don't believe in God". Why is my statement to you an insult, but the reverse is not true for me?

You "I believe religion is good". Me: "I believe religion is evil" Again, why is my belief insulting, but yours is not?

"Fuck religion" comes from the treatment atheist have received over their lives from religious people. The burden is on religious people here. If all religious people were kind and loving like they claim they are, no one would have negative feelings toward religion.

 

[ito007]

Growing up, I was in a similar situation in which I was baptized as a baby, but never went through with the rest of the indoctrination as I grew up. My parents both didn't care about keeping up with religion though, so that's the difference in our situations. The only reason they did it was for the rest of the family's sake really. But when that first ceremony was over they just stopped there.

Knowing the results I'm living in, I think I feel like my parents gave me a fair shot on whether or not I could practice religion (I am not religious). However, the toughest years were when I was in elementary school and middle school, since everyone I knew practiced religion in some way and went to church. I felt isolated not just because I was "left out" but because some kids would talk about how not practicing Christianity would lead me to going to hell. That was scary. Of course, my parents would always remind me to not listen to them, but it was still hard. I don't regret anything, though, and I think whatever happens with a kid, there will always be a point in which they "get it" and choose whether or not they fall into a religion.

I guess what I take out of this is that you should always let your kid have a chance to do whatever they want, and they will eventually follow through whatever that path is when they understand it more. I wouldn't "encourage" anything, but don't "discourage" it either. Either path will have its ups and downs.

I don't think anything that happened in the OP will have serious implications, so I'd move forward feeling good about the incident, despite how uncomfortable it was.

 

[blankempathy]

I'm ok with you as a person (I don't know you so there's not a whole lot not to be ok with) but I don't respect your believes because they're absolutely ridiculous to me. It's weird to me how people keep implying that I'm personally insulting them somehow.

I asked you earlier in the thread if you really needed to insult people's beliefs by comparing their faith to childrens fairy tales and you said yes you do. Dont pretend like you dont understand how openly calling peoples beliefs hogwash isnt insulting. If you dont believe in religion then dont. I dont care. However having respect for peoples beliefs doesnt mean you agree with their view on religion. It means you respect their ability to believe whatever the hell they want without putting in your 2 cents about how their religion is nonsense.

 

[m0dus]

Please educate me.

One more time?

You have no obligation to believe what ANYONE else believes. You can compare scripture to fairy tales all day long if it makes you feel edgy. Go to town.

Your tenacious declaration that you have no respect for anyone that DOES believe in something doesn't make them 'salty', it makes you intolerant and rude, and it's toxic to the discussion here. It's just as bad as someone with faith telling you they have no respect for you because you're an atheist.

Being an atheist doesn't mean you need to belittle other people's beliefs. It means you simply don't share them. I don't share your beliefs, but I will treat them (and you) with respect because I would expect the same.

It's the same as if you held a different opinion on the subject of music, movies, or sexual orientation. You don't have to adopt their viewpoint, but If you can't respect someone for having one that differs from your own, you don't belong here.

Have we made a breakthrough?

 

[WAR recon zero]

oh no the horror, a bible and a crucifix really?

Family member just wants the best for your child. Accept the gifts (or have the wife accept them, she's the religious one) and move on

 

[Chaplain]

Being an atheist doesn't mean you need to belittle other people's beliefs. It means you simply don't share them. I don't share your beliefs, but I will treat them (and you) with respect because I would expect the same.

I think this disconnect with many who do not share the same beliefs, but belittle other people's beliefs is due to the meaning of tolerance having a new meaning. The following quote explains the differences between the original meaning of the word and the new meaning used by many in our time.

"What does tolerance mean? The original meaning of the statement "I tolerate you" was famously (and perhaps rather extremely) expressed by Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Tolerance asserts the right to have convictions, to make judgments about right and wrong, which differ from those of others. It also asserts the right to express those views without fear.

The new tolerance, however, is completely different. It seizes on the idea of offence and holds that I must not ever offend anyone else by expressing disapproval of any aspect of his or her behavior or ideas. The new tolerance approves of all absolutes except this one: you will be tolerant of everyone else's view. You must, however, be intolerant of intolerance. This means that criticism is forbidden, and must be replaced by unrestrained affirmation and praise, or silence. The new tolerance is intolerant of the old, and indeed negates it.

To put it another way: the old tolerance accepted the existence of other views while disagreeing with them; the new tolerance insists on accepting the views themselves and not merely their existence. if we are not allowed to make judgments or have convictions any more, then all that is left is for us to descend to a kind of ethical neutrality. In the end, tolerance simply becomes a synonym for unconditional approval."

 

[MrHoot]

One more time?

You have no obligation to believe what ANYONE else believes. You can compare scripture to fairy tales all day long if it makes you feel edgy. Go to town.

Your tenacious declaration that you have no respect for anyone that DOES believe in something doesn't make them 'salty', it makes you intolerant and rude, and it's toxic to the discussion here. It's just as bad as someone with faith telling you they have no respect for you because you're an atheist.

Being an atheist doesn't mean you need to belittle other people's beliefs. It means you simply don't share them. I don't share your beliefs, but I will treat them (and you) with respect because I would expect the same.

It's the same as if you held a different opinion on the subject of music, movies, or sexual orientation. You don't have to adopt their viewpoint, but If you can't respect someone for having one that differs from your own, you don't belong here.

Have we made a breakthrough?

I think the reason at least some atheists might be so hostile to religion sometimes is that they see said religion as a force that can occasionally (or often, depending on the country) be used to belittle or oppress certain groups and reinforce certain negative notions (refusing marriage for homosexuals based on scriptures, reinforcing sexist gender roles, advocating against the use of condoms in many african countries, denial of scientific evidence regarding medicine or astronomy etc..that could be potientially harmful to the progress of human civilization). Hence they oppose said religion on moral grounds, and oppose practitionners because they think that if you have a certain faith or practice a certain belief, then you are also enabling all the bad that comes with it.

I will be frank and say I was like that a few years ago, until I reevaluated myself and learned to have a more open view on it (although I will still occasionally criticize some parts of religion, even though I will not judge someone based on their faith. Had some very good talks with a few christian and muslim friends back then). But I can probably "understand" sometimes when certain more outspoken atheists come from

 

[m0dus]

I think this disconnect with many who do not share the same beliefs, but belittle other people's beliefs is due to the meaning of tolerance having a new meaning. The following quote explains the differences between the original meaning of the word and the new meaning used by many in our time.

I think this "new tolerance" definition is a bit too reductive. I side with Voltair . You do not have to accept someone's beliefs as fact, and you should feel free to criticize. But they have a right to them, and they should be respected.

 

[wachie]

I hate generalizing but most of the Atheists I met IRL were dicks too but I have seen equally bad religious people as well. For instance people who try to start giving me a lecture like I'm their kid. No thank you please.

 

[Gravy Boat]

I hate generalizing but most of the Atheists I met IRL were dicks too but I have seen equally bad religious people as well. For instance people who try to start giving me a lecture like I'm their kid. No thank you please.

Were they dicks because they were atheists? Or were they just dicks who happened to be atheist?

 

[Octavianus]

One more time?

You have no obligation to believe what ANYONE else believes. You can compare scripture to fairy tales all day long if it makes you feel edgy. Go to town.

Your tenacious declaration that you have no respect for anyone that DOES believe in something doesn't make them 'salty', it makes you intolerant and rude, and it's toxic to the discussion here. It's just as bad as someone with faith telling you they have no respect for you because you're an atheist.

Being an atheist doesn't mean you need to belittle other people's beliefs. It means you simply don't share them. I don't share your beliefs, but I will treat them (and you) with respect because I would expect the same.

It's the same as if you held a different opinion on the subject of music, movies, or sexual orientation. You don't have to adopt their viewpoint, but If you can't respect someone for having one that differs from your own, you don't belong here.

Have we made a breakthrough?

Sigh

One more time: I never expressed any disrespect torwards anyone, just their ridiculous religious beliefs. I'm not going to treat their believes with respect because those believes don't deserve to be respected, due to being based on absolutely nothing.
Let me repeat myself one last time just to make myself clear: My lack of respect for their religious believes doesn't mean I don't respect them as a person. Or at least not unless they end up acting on them in some way that doesn't fly with me but you know.

Sexual orientation isn't a choice, faith is and taste in music, movies and videogames is trivial to to point where I simply don't give a fuck so they're hardly comparable.

Have we made a breakthrough?

I asked you earlier in the thread if you really needed to insult people's beliefs by comparing their faith to childrens fairy tales and you said yes you do. Dont pretend like you dont understand how openly calling peoples beliefs hogwash isnt insulting. If you dont believe in religion then dont. I dont care. However having respect for peoples beliefs doesnt mean you agree with their view on religion. It means you respect their ability to believe whatever the hell they want without putting in your 2 cents about how their religion is nonsense.

It was a perfectly apt comparison. It's not my fault those people choose to believe in such nonsense or find offense in in my own views.

 

[Opto]

A friend was shocked that I was an atheist, because they've had such awful experiences with them. Atheism can stand to be friendlier.

 

[Chaplain]

I side with Voltair . You do not have to accept someone's beliefs as fact, and you should feel free to criticize. But they have a right to them, and they should be respected.

We are in agreement. ^_^

 

[Epsilon-delta]

I think this "new tolerance" definition is a bit too reductive. I side with Voltair . You do not have to accept someone's beliefs as fact, and you should feel free to criticize. But they have a right to them, and they should be respected.

I disagree. I can't respect anyone who hides behind their religion that oppose gay marriage, deny the scientific method, or just being judgmental on anything that questions their religion.

There are people who truly believe that humans have no affect on climate change because only God has that power according to them. Not only that, some of these same people have little to no care about the world around them on the grounds of their God will take care of everything in the end. They don't seem to care about the future or society's biggest problems by virtue of an everlasting paradise waiting for them at death.

This is outright dangerous to society, and being respectful to them only enables this type of ignorant worldview.

I ask you, if you believe these opinions should be respected, why has GAF banned posters who are against gay marriage?

Where was the respect for them?

 

[Opto]

I disagree. I can't respect anyone who hides behind their religion that oppose gay marriage, deny the scientific method, or just being judgmental on anything that questions their religion.

There are people who truly believe that humans have no affect on climate change because only God has that power according to them. Not only that, some of these same people have little to no care about the world around them on the grounds of their God will take care of everything in the end. They don't seem to care about the future or society's biggest problems by virtue of an everlasting paradise waiting for them at death.

This is outright dangerous to society, and being respectful to them only enables this type of ignorant worldview.

I ask you, if you believe these opinions should be respected, why has GAF banned posters who are against gay marriage?

Where was the respect for them?

There's a difference between calling religion fairy tales with smug abandon and criticizing the actual negative impacts it has on society. Atheists will make blanket statements when there are many sects that are against the conservative fundamentalist sects

 

[Epsilon-delta]

There's a difference between calling religion fairy tales with smug abandon and criticizing the actual negative impacts it has on society. Atheists will make blanket statements when there are many sects that are against the conservative fundamentalist sects

Anecdotally, I haven't met many individuals from any particular sect who was for gay marriage.

 

[injurai]

There is a difference between holding respect for someone and showing respect towards someone.

 

[Chococat]

A friend was shocked that I was an atheist, because they've had such awful experiences with them. Atheism can stand to be friendlier.

Both sides need to be friendlier. But it is hard when it is part of many religious belief that non-believers are immoral beings that need to be save. It is hard to treat people as equals when people believe in their hearts that atheist are not. There is only one God, and all must follow him. Those who do not must be converted for their own good or be marginalize/ destroyed. They must be reminded they are immoral. Because they don't believe in God, atheist must be murders, fornicators, rapist, liers, thieves, and child molesters. Cause without God, what could we possible be living for? Without His guidance, what stops us from killing to get what we want?

I'm suppose endure the constant stream of insults and false judgement from religious people cause it is their belief. That has to be respected? Sorry. No. I respect individual Christians because how they treat me and disrespect those "bear false witness against me". If one starts off as treating me as inferior because of their religion, I will return the same treatment in kind.

 

[Octavianus]

i guess just find it funny how people can tell me to be respectful for a believe system and then turn around and call me a dick for expressing my own lack of belief.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Anecdotally, I haven't met many individuals from any particular sect who was for gay marriage.

You haven't done your homework.

Episcopalian churches were the first Christian denomination to allow female and LGBT deacons and priests and bishops. They have a long track record of protecting LGBT Rights. They are one of the few denominations that will allow gay marriage in their church.

Quakers are also known to be progressive wrt LGBT rights.

Also, as much as this shouldn't need to be said, but there can be atheists who are vehemently anti-LGBT for reasons that aren't religious.

i guess just find it funny how people can tell me to be respectful for a believe system and then turn around and call me a dick for expressing my own lack of belief.

Well the shoe fits here. M0dus just asked you to be a little respectful to religious folk. Respect goes both ways.

 

[Walpurgis]

Do you understand why atheist say those things?

Say you tell me "I believe in God". I reply "I don't believe in God". Why is my statement to you an insult, but the reverse is not true for me?

You "I believe religion is good". Me: "I believe religion is evil" Again, why is my belief insulting, but yours is not?

"Fuck religion" comes from the treatment atheist have received over their lives from religious people. The burden is on religious people here. If all religious people were kind and loving like they claim they are, no one would have negative feelings toward religion.

"I believe in God" and "I don't believe in God" are not insults and shouldn't offend anyone. "I believe religion is good" is a positive statement (i.e. not an insult) and shouldn't offend anyone. "I believe religion is evil" is a negative statement and offends religious people.

There is no excuse to say "Fuck religion". It is simply disrespectful and nothing good comes from it. If someone has a problem with religion, they are free to talk about them in a civil manner. I am not sure what you are talking about with religious people treating atheists badly because I have only seen the opposite on the internet. Perhaps this is something that took place in your personal life but it is not something that you need to bring to the internet to strangers.

 

[Aurongel]

i guess just find it funny how people can tell me to be respectful for a believe system and then turn around and call me a dick for expressing my own lack of belief.

I've called out many Christians and atheists alike for expressing criticism/beliefs in a dickish way.

There is nothing special about you, no one here is going out of their way to attack you over your beliefs, only the ways you rudely put down others. I'm not sure why you don't understand how referring to someone else's beliefs as "dumb fairy tales" makes you sound like anything other than a snob.