• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

Atheism and R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Status
Not open for further replies.
i guess just find it funny how people can tell me to be respectful for a believe system and then turn around and call me a dick for expressing my own lack of belief.

Because they don't think of themselves as bad people, and they are trying to devote themselves to something larger than themselves. So when someone else handwaves the overarching notion of faith, and paint it as a dynamic that causes more harm than good. That disvalues an establishment that for followers becomes equivilant with their identity. Theists seek to become in covanant wtih God, they seek to be part of something bigger.

So for many disagreeing in even a mannerful tact will still come accross as an underhanded disparagment of them as individuals. Never mind there is also the facet or self-doubt that is often present with people of faith, and temptation is seen as being the work of earthly forces. So for some there is also the feeling of a true evil coming from dissenters and non-believers.

If you truly don't believe, I think you owe it to yourself to at least understand more deeply the dynamics that incur the these responses. Because there are many just kind, moderate, theists that will really feel attacked and pressed against the wall if you take a hard stand in disbelief. Though they usually get excited if you claim you're merely agnostic, because that is a chance for them to share proudly their belief with you and not be falling on their back foot.
 
i find it highly amusing (well not really) seeing so many people judge atheists on their experiences on the internet..
 
. "I believe religion is good" is a positive statement (i.e. not an insult) and shouldn't offend anyone. "I believe religion is evil" is a negative statement and offends religious people.
.

how is the statement "i believe religion is good" not extremely offensive to anyone who has heard of or even experienced religious prosecution of any kind?

both are blanket statements that have to possibility to offend depending on how you look at them.

EDIT: sorry about the back to back posts
 
how is the statement "i believe religion is good" not extremely offensive to anyone who has heard of or even experienced religious prosecution of any kind?

both are blanket statements that have to possibility to offend depending on how you look at them.

EDIT: sorry about the back to back posts
You are right that it may offend those kinds of people. However, I doubt that the majority of people calling religion evil on the internet have been persecuted. It seems to come from a sense of superiority and elitism, in my view. In any case, the statement "religion is evil" is much more common than "religion is good" on neogaf so people who have been religiously persecuted should rest easy here.
 
I believe religion is good" is a positive statement (i.e. not an insult) and shouldn't offend anyone. "I believe religion is evil" is a negative statement and offends religious people.

Just because something is a negative statement, doesn't mean it is an insult. You don't get to use your religion to shut down other beliefs. Some religious people state that "homosexuality is evil". Is that a positive or negative statement? Is it an insult or a religious truth? Based on religion, "atheist are immoral". Is it an insult or a religious truth?


There is no excuse to say "Fuck religion".

I disagree, there are time when it is appropriate. If one using their codified religion to oppress people, then it is appropriate to criticizes the evils those religious people are committing. People speaking out against Christian who want America to be a theocracy deserve to have their belief criticized. ISIS killing anyone (Christain, Muslim, Jew, athiest alike) deserever to have their religion spoken about in the harshest terms.

I am not sure what you are talking about with religious people treating atheists badly because I have only seen the opposite on the internet.
Perhaps this is something that took place in your personal life but it is not something that you need to bring to the internet to strangers.

And this is tell you to "fuck off". Who are you tell me I can't can't share my experience because only your internet experience are important? You are exactly the kind person I frequently encounter that tells me to shut up because my belief are insulting. (It is happening on the internet, so it must be true!) If you want to live in a bubble world, shut your self in. You have no right to demand I shut up to protect your frail world view.
 
I'm the atheist and she is agnostic.

After much discussion, we both agreed that it should be up to them when they come of age.
 
I've called out many Christians and atheists alike for expressing criticism/beliefs in a dickish way.

There is nothing special about you, no one here is going out of their way to attack you over your beliefs, only the ways you rudely put down others. I'm not sure why you don't understand how referring to someone else's beliefs as "dumb fairy tales" makes you sound like anything other than a snob.

I'm not rudely putting anyone down though. If they want to believe in 'anything' then that's fine by me and I've never implied otherwise. I simply don't think believe in god or gods merits any more respect than if someone decided to hold Hensel and Gretel as gospel because neither of them have any kind of proof to back them up. People act like their believes somehow deserve to be respected just because and I don't agree.
 
Just because something is a negative statement, doesn't mean it is an insult. You don't get to use your religion to shut down other beliefs. Some religious people state that "homosexuality is evil". Is that a positive or negative statement? Is it an insult or a religious truth? Based on religion, "atheist are immoral". Is it an insult or a religious truth?
"Religion is evil" is a blanket statement that completely ignores all of the good that religion has done for the world. I am not using my religion to shut down other beliefs when I ask you to speak in a civil manner, unless you feel that speaking in a civil manner is a religious thing. Homosexuals can be offended by "homosexuality is evil" but they should specify which religion offends them because not every religion says that. In any case, we are not talking about how some specific religious texts offend you but how you offend people.
I disagree, there are time when it is appropriate. If one using their codified religion to oppress people, then it is appropriate to criticizes the evils those religious people are committing. People speaking out against Christian who want America to be a theocracy deserve to have their belief criticized. ISIS killing anyone (Christain, Muslim, Jew, athiest alike) deserever to have their religion spoken about in the harshest terms.
If all you have to say to those awful things is "fuck religion" then I think you should stop posting. It adds nothing worthwhile to a discussion and only serves to inflame. Please just speak in a civil manner and respect others. Is that really such a hard thing for you to do?
And this is tell you to "fuck off". Who are you tell me I can't can't share my experience because only your internet experience are important? You are exactly the kind person I frequently encounter that tells me to shut up because my belief are insulting. (It is happening on the internet, so it must be true!) If you want to live in a bubble world, shut your self in. You have no right to demand I shut up to protect your frail world view.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that you shouldn't share your experiences online. I meant that you shouldn't take your negative experiences in your personal life out on internet strangers. I am not asking you to shut up. I am asking you to behave in a civil manner and to respect others.
 
The word respect is being used in a lot of different ways, which is leading to most of the debate here. From my point of view respecting a person is different from respecting a person's beliefs.

Respecting a person is rather straightforward. Everyone is entitled to their own views, values, and personal conduct. No one should be belittled for living their lives as they desire, so long as their actions don't influence the lives of others in a negative way.

Respecting a person's beliefs are a little more complicated. I wouldn't expect anyone to respect the beliefs of a person that claim they have the right of ownership of another person, for example. Maybe a person feels like rape and murder are good values to have. How could anyone respect such beliefs?

The main reason religious beliefs aren't respected by a portion of atheists is because they have a large influence on the world for all people. I can't respect a belief that does real world harm. Examples including telling people they can't get married because they have the same genitalia, creating roadblocks to scientific progress that could be hugely beneficial to many people (STEM cell research), treating people with malice for not following the same beliefs (persecution of apostates), telling people in a place where AIDS is everywhere that wearing a condom is a sin, and countless other ways in which religious beliefs do real harm to civilization.

I understand that most people that hold religious beliefs are good people that want to lead a life of love and happiness, and that's great in a microcosm, but in a macrocosm the teachings that religious people hold dear are causing a lot of problems for a lot of people.
 
Sigh

One more time: I never expressed any disrespect torwards anyone, just their ridiculous religious beliefs. . . It's not my fault those people choose to believe in such nonsense or find offense in in my own views.

You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. "I don't disrespect anyone, I just can't respect a person that believes in silly fairy tales?"

i guess just find it funny how people can tell me to be respectful for a believe system and then turn around and call me a dick for expressing my own lack of belief.

Are you actually this socially awkward in real life? No one is calling you a dick for 'expressing your lack of belief.' They are calling you a dick because you are hiding behind your lack of belief as an excuse to ACT like a dick.
 
I'm not rudely putting anyone down though. If they want to believe in 'anything' then that's fine by me and I've never implied otherwise. I simply don't think believe in god or gods merits any more respect than if someone decided to hold Hensel and Gretel as gospel because neither of them have any kind of proof to back them up. People act like their believes somehow deserve to be respected just because and I don't agree.

How are you not rudely putting anyone down? You say that you have the same respect towards religious people as you do for those who believe in Hansel and Gretel. I'm sorry you and your superior beliefs feel insulted, but you've been pretty rude.
 
How are you not rudely putting anyone down? You say that you have the same respect towards religious people as you do for those who believe in Hansel and Gretel. I'm sorry you and your superior beliefs feel insulted, but you've been pretty rude.

I don't think that they get that it's an insult. They probably feel it's a good putdown in a debating sense. Can't stop 'debating' mode.

I understand that most people that hold religious beliefs are good people that want to lead a life of love and happiness, and that's great in a microcosm, but in a macrocosm the teachings that religious people hold dear are causing a lot of problems for a lot of people.

Why treat a person who has done you no wrong with derision just because other people who also hold their beliefs went on to do bad things? You could choose to treat a person proportionate to what they have done? or at least to what they themselves hold to be true. Seems only fair.
 
Why treat a person who has done you no wrong with derision just because other people who also hold their beliefs went on to do bad things? You could choose to treat a person proportionate to what they have done? or at least to what they themselves hold to be true. Seems only fair.

I personally don't. I have no issues with anyone's personal beliefs, so long as those beliefs are more or less kept to themselves. When people proselytize, or claim their beliefs are absolute truth, then they open themselves to criticism.

I'm not blaming all theists for the actions of their religion as a whole.
 
I personally don't. I have no issues with anyone's personal beliefs, so long as those beliefs are more or less kept to themselves. When people proselytize, or claim their beliefs are absolute truth, then they open themselves to criticism.

Fair enough. That whole fourth paragraph was very patronising though. Who on Gaf do you think was ignorant to this?

I saw a person way back in my university days wearing a #fuck religion t-shirt, which looked like something they made at home.

I laughed and said: what? even to those who give charity?

The next time I saw them, they were wearing a #fuck some parts of religion.
Which made both of us laugh I think.

And I honestly feel that's probably what it comes down to. Lazy thinking. Generalising is way easier..
 
You could've just given the gifts back and said they had to wait until shes grown and decided whether or not she wants to believe in this stuff.
 
Fair enough. That whole fourth paragraph was very patronising though. Who on Gaf do you think was ignorant to this?

It wasn't meant to be patronizing. It was just examples of how religion beyond the individual can be harmful. I never said anyone was ignorant to it.

I saw a person way back in my university days wearing a #fuck religion t-shirt, which looked like something they made at home.

I laughed and said: what? even to those who give charity?

The next time I saw them, they were wearing a #fuck some parts of religion.
Which made both of us laugh I think.

And I honestly feel that's probably what it comes down to. Lazy thinking. Generalising is way easier..

Thinking is hard. It's easier to just take things at face value.
 
I personally don't. I have no issues with anyone's personal beliefs, so long as those beliefs are more or less kept to themselves. When people proselytize, or claim their beliefs are absolute truth, then they open themselves to criticism.

I'm not blaming all theists for the actions of their religion as a whole.
If everyone on neogaf could follow this philosophy (atheists in particular), it would be a much more pleasant place.
 
If everyone on neogaf could follow this philosophy (atheists in particular), it would be a much more pleasant place.

But the reality is religious people are trying every single day to put their believes on the rest of us.

In my country, just checking the amount of laws the politicians are trying to make that have religious agenda behind is disgusting... So to be silent is impossible in this situation.. to many people still support this kind of politician.
 
But the reality is religious people are trying every single day to put their believes on the rest of us.

In my country, just checking the amount of laws the politicians are trying to make that have religious agenda behind is disgusting... So to be silent is impossible in this situation.. to many people still support this kind of politician.
I know what you mean. I have atheist politicians doing the very same thing in my country and they are also supported by many. I was just talking about the way people conduct themselves with others online. Me being rude and condescending to atheists online isn't going to improve the situation here.
 
Crazy how people can't seem to grasp how openly mocking someone in public or their beliefs is insulting.

when their belief includes the notion that i shall burn for eternity at the zenith of pain, because i do not believe the same thing, i feel ok describing that as nonsense.
 
when their belief includes the notion that i shall burn for eternity at the zenith of pain, because i do not believe the same thing, i feel ok describing that as nonsense.

And thats fine when you keep it to yourself. Just like religious people shouldn't be openly telling me in public that Im damned to hell. The whole point is keeping that crap to yourself. We all have judgmental thoughts about people ranging from their beliefs to weight to height etc etc etc. Theres no need to go around telling people to their face nor publicly what we think of them. Theres more then just atheists in this thread. This wasn't a thread about if region is real or not so no ones asking for your opinion on that subject.
 
And thats fine when you keep it to yourself. Just like religious people shouldn't be openly telling me in public that Im damned to hell. The whole point is keeping that crap to yourself. We all have judgmental thoughts about people ranging from their beliefs to weight to height etc etc etc. Theres no need to go around telling people to their face nor publicly what we think of them. Theres more then just atheists in this thread. This wasn't a thread about if region is real or not so no ones asking for your opinion on that subject.

sure, but what's "public"? is this public?
 
"Religion is evil" is a blanket statement that completely ignores all of the good that religion has done for the world.

Religion is good, while it feel good completely ignores the bad parts of religions. Personally, I fall in religion can be good or bad depend what it is doing.

In any case, we are not talking about how some specific religious texts offend you but how you offend people.

Please point out specific were I specifically offended people.

If all you have to say to those awful things is "fuck religion" then I think you should stop posting.

I simply responding to how I can empathizes with atheists who may lash out and express themselves in crud manner. While I do not agree with their choice of words, I understand the feelings and emotions behind them.

It adds nothing worthwhile to a discussion and only serves to inflame.

And you playing tone police adds nothing to discussion either. Their are moderators on this boards who recently band the one trolling atheist jerk.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that you shouldn't share your experiences online. I meant that you shouldn't take your negative experiences in your personal life out on internet strangers.

Where again have I taken out negative experiences on people in this thread? You seem to be confusing me some one else. Me expressing my point of view based on my experience is me not lashing out. I'm sorry experiences don't fit in the religion is good category. I would love it if all religious live up the the ideal they project.

I suggest you explore the internet more, because it not "only atheists" who are rude on the internet. The fact they you only see atheists as the rude one's speaks volumes about yourself (hint: people from any walk of life/belief set can be rude, including atheist).
 
I never said it didn't. After all atheism is still a belief in itself.

Not to derail the thread, but is it really? The lack of a belief is a belief? Saying "I don't believe in a god or gods" is not the same as saying "I believe there are no gods". Besides, you can still believe that there might be something greater at work without all of the man made religious connotations.

Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. Older dictionaries define atheism as "a belief that there is no God."
 
Not to derail the thread, but is it really? The lack of a belief is a belief? Saying "I don't believe in a god or gods" is not the same as saying "I believe there are no gods". Besides, you can still believe that there might be something greater at work without all of the man made religious connotations.

But I never said it was a system. You believe there are no gods. Is that not a belief or a way of thinking? I'm not trying to be super technical here. I meant that there are both people on the side of the fence that like to tell the other that they're wrong in their way of thinking.
 
No idea why you married a religious person if you think she is indoctrinated sheep and religious traditions bother you so much

Exactly. As an atheist, I just can't see how a relationship would ever work out for me with a religious woman. I would just have way too many disagreements; especially concerning raising a kid. OP, you should have had everything worked out and agreed upon on how you two were going to raise the kid concerning religion before having her. You need to work that out with your wife and family now.
 
But I never said it was a system. You believe there are no gods. Is that not a belief or a way of thinking? I'm not trying to be super technical here. I meant that there are both people on the side of the fence that like to tell the other that they're wrong in their way of thinking.

That's not what atheism is about. They don't believe there are no gods. They simply do not believe in them. There is a distinction. The biggest issue with being an atheist it seems is that many religions expect you to allow them their own beliefs, but don't want to allow you the same freedom.

The "belief" is: it hasn't been proven, so I'm not going to simply shake my head in agreement. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but give me some kind of proof.

Everyone is born an atheist anyway.
 
But I never said it was a system. You believe there are no gods. Is that not a belief or a way of thinking? I'm not trying to be super technical here. I meant that there are both people on the side of the fence that like to tell the other that they're wrong in their way of thinking.

It's an argument form the null hypothesis. If something cannot be proven to exist, it's logical to behave as if it doesn't. It's the same logic that lets one not believe in mythological beasts, unicorns, dragons, etc.

Atheists simply apply it to gods. Since no one really has offered any verifiable empirical evidence that they exist, the atheist lives as if they do not.
 
I was once asked to leave a wedding, then threatened to leave the town where said wedding was being held because the bride knew my buddies and me hold atheistic or agnostic views. One of the guys in the group was the best man. Oh, and the groom got in a really thigh spot too, life threatening kind.

OP, I would recommend not to expect respect from religious people if you say you're atheistic, most of them can't accept that, and will react in a variety of ways, from shock and awe to violence. I have witnessed all the range.

That's why we stopped going to weddings, and just crash the party.
 
That's not what atheism is about. They don't believe there are no gods. They simply do not believe in them. There is a distinction. The biggest issue with being an atheist it seems is that many religions expect you to allow them their own beliefs, but don't want to allow you the same freedom.

The "belief" is: it hasn't been proven, so I'm not going to simply shake my head in agreement. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but give me some kind of proof.

Everyone is born an atheist anyway.

It's an argument form the null hypothesis. If something cannot be proven to exist, it's logical to behave as if it doesn't. It's the same logic that lets one not believe in mythological beasts, unicorns, dragons, etc.

Atheists simply apply it to gods. Since no one really has offered any verifiable empirical evidence that they exist, the atheist lives as if they do not.

Yes yes ok I messed up and read what they said wrong. Its still a way of thinking.
 
Pretty sure I have.

Enjoy your thread. I am going to disrespectfully/respectively* leave.





*delete where appropriate.

I assume you're talking about this?

How do you figure that? Babies can't comprehend much, let alone determine philosophical positions.

From that statement it seems you see atheism as a philosophical position, which it just isn't. I'm sorry the discussion is making you upset enough to avoid the conversation. I meant no hard feelings.
 
As others said you married a religious woman so the best is yet to come. The thing is when you have a child with someone that has a different belief system with you those beliefs are going to clash sooner or later. In this case of respect you agreed to let your child go through a Christian ritual and then scoff at Christian gifts for your child. OP you opened the door for this to happen and as others said the baby has no ides what the gifts are other than having something new to try and put in its mouth.
 
So all babies are athiests like how rocks are.

Both of you are bickering over a technicality that surrounds how you define atheism, something which isn't consistant even among atheists.

So saying "how convenient for you" is missing the point. Which is that, he is describing by one definition it would be the tabula rasa state of man to be atheist. There is no agree to disagreeing under that definition, only disagreeing that another definition should be used in which case that technicality no longer holds. But who had the last say on what atheism is and isn't. Which is why we get the Dawkin's Scale.
 
Pretty sure I have.

Enjoy your thread. I am going to disrespectfully/respectively* leave.
Before you completely bail from the thread after saying something mystifying, could you elaborate? I don't understand. And I genuinely want to understand. First you say that babies cannot understand philosophical (and I'll assume religious) ideologies, but then you go on to imply that babies are not "atheists" either.

Let me use myself as an example. I was born without any knowledge of or belief in the supernatural or religion. I grew up in a household where the subject of gods or religions never came up. My only experience with religion was that of an outsider, learning about other people's different cultures and belief systems (and how the latter is a subset of the former) through interacting with people. At what point did I start being an atheist? I started off not believing in any deities. I later affirmed that I did not believe in any deities as a reaction to being confronted by other people's beliefs. (Some people only experience the latter due to being raised in a religious household and have to actively "reject" the notion of the existence of gods.) Are passive and active atheists ultimately different? Aren't they both simply "atheist" by the definition of the word? If not, what did I start out as?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom