Support NeoGAF

[Lambtron]

what, exactly, was i trying? i quoted a section on atheistic persecution on wikipedia - to show some examples (primarily in the US). i didn't highlight, bold, or italicize the part you picked out - i didn't place emphasis on it. there have been (as evidenced by the sources cited in the wiki page) legal bars on atheists holding public office, how is that not discrimination?

I wasn't referring to you, only the text I quoted. There's discrimination for lots of people, and I'm totally against that. The first sentence of that being the Opression Olympics was like someone blasting me in the eyes with a laser, that's all.

 

[waypoetic]

Let me try to lay down some should-be-obvious rules.

- There are several threads on GAF dedicated to discussions of particular Religions. I know we have one Christianity OT, I know there's a Mormon/ex-Mormon thread, I know there's an Islam thread. We do our best to moderate those threads and make them a safe space. You don't need to subscribe to a particular worldview to participate, but if you're only in the thread to disrupt it, leave.

- If you are here to roll your eyes at Reddit, leave. This isn't Reddit.

- If this thread becomes smug and rude in how it deals with theism rather than open and inclusive, the thread will be locked. This doesn't mean that there can't be statements critical of Religion, but that there needs to be a certain level of respect. Don't worry about defining where the line is, just try not to be a jerk. We can tell the difference between fine, borderline, a little too far, and absolutely unacceptable.

- The first time someone links to a post by a theist on GAF to mock them from afar, the thread will be locked.

- If there is notable news about atheism, secularism, or science, we would still expect new threads for new news. This shouldn't become an enclave to "get away" from discussion elsewhere on GAF.

Thanks.

Thank you. I will put these guidelines in the OT.

 

[Dice]

Actually I'm agnostic and this was more of an Atheism vs Agnosticism thought.

We carry those on in the AvT thread as well. Basically, if it weren't for theism being around to challenge atheism, you wouldn't even be asking that.

- The first time someone links to a post by a theist on GAF to mock them from afar, the thread will be locked.

I give it a month.

 

[BruiserBear]

I think there are alot of passive atheists (and that's fine!), and i don't mean to offend anyone by the "weak" and "strong" atheist term. The so called strong/"hard" atheist is in my book the kind of person that wants to debate, who wants to question and is someone that has an interest in science and evolutionary biology. There are alot of people that feel and act differently in the name of atheism. Not everyone wants to "nerd-out" when it comes to evolution or science

Sure, and I get that, but as I mentioned, you get so specific in your description that you're just inviting debate on it, as you've already seen from the first page.

I don't fit your description of "hard" atheists, but I am perfectly willing to debate the topic with anyone who's interested, and I read and "nerd out" on science and the folly of religion on a regular basis. So I think a very general description of atheists as "those who have no belief in god" is good enough.

If people wish to discuss the various sorts of atheists within the thread then that's great, but defining everyone into specific categories in the OP seems unnecessary to me.

 

[zoukka]

Except religion is based on accepting things with no evidence.

I have no problem with the passing on and demonstration of culture, of rituals and customs that have understood symbolic meaning. However this doesn't include making people believe that the Pope actually talks to God, that you eat the body of Christ and drink his blood, that you should cut the foreskin off of babies, that one man and his family took two of every single animal species on Earth onto a boat, that citizens in AIDs ridden countries shouldn't use condoms, that promote hate and bigotry toward homosexuals.

And with one swoop of your magic atheist wand you just labeled all religious people as supporters of such doctrines and beliefs, gongrats.

And all the people accept things with no evidence. Every day.

 

[Karsticles]

Gnostic atheism doesn't make any sense to me - how can you know there isn't any god? To me, that particular brand of atheism seems about as faith based as any religious angle. Even Dawkins is agnostic atheist - on his own scale in The God Delusion, he claims to be around 6.9 out of 7 (7 being completely - or gnostic - atheist, 1 being utterly convinced of God's existence).

Not all atheists work on the "certainty" scale. I prefer to work on what I'll call an "operational" scale. In other words, how do you live your life? Penn Jillette once put it in terms I'm fond of (paraphrased): "I tell people this: Imagine there's a flood coming, and you can choose to support yourself behind a dam that other people are reinforcing with whatever they can find, or go to an open area filled with people praying for God's protection. If you go to the first area, I call you an atheist. If you go to the second area, you scare me, and you are dangerous to other people."

I consider most people who call themselves to be Christians to be "Sunday Christians" - they're a Christian on Sunday, and an American (i.e. practically, materialistically oriented) every other day of the week. Most such people are largely atheistic in their lifestyle whether they believe in God or not.

 

[RagnarokX]

Precisely why I'm agnostic. I don't know, because I can't know. I doubt, but that's not enough to say for certain. And I'm okay with that.

Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive.

Atheism: not religious.
Agnosticism: not knowing.

Agnostic atheism: not knowing if there is a deity or not, and not religious.

Gnostic atheism is claiming to know there is no deity at all; they have a belief system.

 

[that1dude24]

I wasn't referring to you, only the text I quoted. There's discrimination for lots of people, and I'm totally against that. The first sentence of that being the Opression Olympics was like someone blasting me in the eyes with a laser, that's all.

ah. yeah, oppression shouldn't be played as "who has it worse", sorry for jumping.

 

[RagnarokX]

Gnostic atheism doesn't make any sense to me - how can you know there isn't any god? To me, that particular brand of atheism seems about as faith based as any religious angle. Even Dawkins is agnostic atheist - on his own scale in The God Delusion, he claims to be around 6.9 out of 7 (7 being completely 100% gnostic atheist, 1 being utterly convinced of God's existence).

Gnostic atheism is faith based rather than scientific. It's the bad kind of atheism.

 

[Keru_Shiri]

I prefer the term "secular" myself.

 

[User 100115]

I jokingly call myself a pagan atheist. I guess I am more agnostic. I personally think that if there is some higher power, there is no way it is sentient, so it doesn't matter anyway.

So I guess I believe in 'power' aka science?

 

[ThLunarian]

I'm an agnostic atheist. My girlfriend is a non-practicing Jehovah's Witness, who believes that that particular religion is the absolute truth; for example, she refuses to get a blood transfusion for any reason, including to save her own life.

I'm a little worried about how this will affect our relationship down the line, especially because she says that eventually she will likely go back to being a practicing Witness. Does anyone have any insights on this? How to reconcile the differences in beliefs, etc? Whenever she mentions something related to her religious beliefs that I disagree with, I find myself needing to bite my tongue, or else I might start trying to convince her that her religion is wrong.

 

[Trey]

Indeed, and what is this "for equality" nonsense? Plenty of historical atheists were elitists.

The title struck me as passive aggressive too, but it's no big deal.

 

[fifasnipe2224]

An atheist OT? About time.
Hello my fellow brothers.

 

[Omegasquash]

Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive.

Atheism: not religious.
Agnosticism: not knowing.

Agnostic atheism: not knowing if there is a deity or not, and not religious.

Gnostic atheism is claiming to know there is no deity at all; they have a belief system.

I'm not sure about this. By your definition, I am an agnostic atheist, though I believe in a higher power without knowing one is there. Belief and knowledge are two different things, religion aside. I make no claim to know one way or the other since it's unknowable (which is a claim in and of itself).

My understanding was that atheism is the acknowledged acceptance that there is no god whatsoever, whereas agnostics claim to NOT know.

 

[bangai-o]

i dont understand what is there to discuss other than complaining about religion. that is just my experience from reading the other atheist threads.

 

[Dice]

I'm a little worried about how this will affect our relationship down the line, especially because she says that eventually she will likely go back to being a practicing Witness. Does anyone have any insights on this? How to reconcile the differences in beliefs, etc? Whenever she mentions something related to her religious beliefs that I disagree with, I find myself needing to bite my tongue, or else I might start trying to convince her that her religion is wrong.

You don't ever want to have kids, do you? Man, I don't think I could be with a believer.

 

[teruterubozu]

Any room for plain existential nihilism? I'm constantly mired in it.

 

[Scapegoat]

And with one swoop of your magic atheist wand you just labeled all religious people as supporters of such doctrines and beliefs, gongrats.

And all the people accept things with no evidence. Every day.

I never said every single religious person is the same and ascribes to the same 5 rituals I listed. We are talking about religious belief as a whole, I was pointing out the bad that comes from believing fairy tale nonsense to be literal, factual, truth.

So because people accept things without evidence every day it suddenly makes all religions more valid and correct? If someone created a thread on Harry Potter, and how it's the greatest true-to-life story ever told, are they not ignorant? Why not? Because a lot of people accept things with no evidence every day?

My understanding was that atheism is the acknowledged acceptance that there is no god whatsoever, whereas agnostics claim to NOT know.

The definition of atheism can vary, however I would say that atheism is the belief that there is no god in the way described by the most popular religions, that is "all knowing, all seeing, every loving and caring, who lets bad things happen cause he wants us to find our way or something". And the reason for this disbelief is the total lack of evidence for any of the ideas given by religious institutions.

It could be that humans were seeded on Earth by a super intelligent race ala Halo, Mass Effect, etc, though there is no evidence indicating so. Similarly there is no evidence to support that there is one singular God constantly watching all of us, peering into our souls and thoughts, constantly judging us weather or not we'll be let into Club Heaven once we die.

 

[Extollere]

Hello everyone! ^^

I'm not sure about this. By your definition, I am an agnostic atheist, though I believe in a higher power without knowing one is there. Belief and knowledge are two different things, religion aside. I make no claim to know one way or the other since it's unknowable (which is a claim in and of itself).

My understanding was that atheism is the acknowledged acceptance that there is no god whatsoever, whereas agnostics claim to NOT know.

Maybe this will help!

 

[ThLunarian]

You don't ever want to have kids, do you? Man, I don't think I could be with a believer.

I do, which is why the blood transfusion thing bugs me.

 

[RagnarokX]

I'm not sure about this. By your definition, I am an agnostic atheist, though I believe in a higher power without knowing one is there. Belief and knowledge are two different things, religion aside. I make no claim to know one way or the other since it's unknowable (which is a claim in and of itself).

My understanding was that atheism is the acknowledged acceptance that there is no god whatsoever, whereas agnostics claim to NOT know.

No, atheism is just a lack of belief; not a belief in there not being a higher power.

I think part of where people get confused is that they think atheism is an "ism" and some people treat it like one. Really it's just theism with "not" on the front; atheism = not theism. Agnosticism and gnosticism are where you get into whether you believe in the possibility of deities. You can even be an agnostic theist where you believe in a deity but don't know what it is.

 

[Dice]

I do, which is why the blood transfusion thing bugs me.

How could you raise kids with someone who would teach them the opposite of what you would? Not to be a big downer on your relationship, but I just personally don't get how people do it. Even not wanting kids, I think the most serious faith I could roll with in a relationship is a really passive daoist or buddhist.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

I jokingly call myself a pagan atheist. I guess I am more agnostic. I personally think that if there is some higher power, there is no way it is sentient, so it doesn't matter anyway.

So I guess I believe in 'power' aka science?

You sound like you are probably pantheist.

No, atheism is just a lack of belief.

I think part of where people get confused is that they think atheism is an "ism" and some people treat it like one. Really it's just theism with "not" on the front; atheism = not theism. Agnosticism and gnosticism are where you get into whether you believe in the possibility of deities. You can even be an agnostic theist where you believe in a deity but don't know what it is.

I think this is what I roll with. Although I was raised in a Christian background, so I suppose I could be agnostic Christian? I am not a religious person at all however so I suppose it could swing all over the place.

 

[RionaaM]

What kind of atheist am I if I often apply common sense when debating about religion, gods and spirituality?

 

[pigeon interrupted]

Pretty sure I'm an atheist, though I'm not too familiar with the specifics.

I believe in a right to an education and equality regardless of gender, race or sexual orientation. Most importantly the right to question everything (including our origins) and if a religion removes these rights which I consider common-sense, then surely it is to the detriment of fellowship and reason which are the things that drive social and scientific advancement. Pretty standard stuff, I'm guessing. Haven't read any books on the subject by the authors in the OP, so I'm pretty ignorant on the subject

Also, my username isn't meant as an offense to Christians, speaking as an ex one myself: I just thought it sounded cute. I think people should practice whatever religion if it inspires them, just don't act as in God's place. Let God do the Godding. If there is one.

 

[BruiserBear]

i dont understand what is there to discuss other than complaining about religion. that is just my experience from reading the other atheist threads.

I answered this qusetion on the first page. Please read the thread prior to posting.

 

[CornBurrito]

The "what are atheists like?" section is really dumb.

Not all atheists are part of some unifying anti-theism/skepticism movement. If atheism is like non-stamp collecting, then there shouldn't be unifying characteristics like you suggest.

 

[Jimothy]

Growing up an Atheist liberal in a conservative Christian town made me pretty militant towards religion. It's a scourge on intellectual and social progress, and is entirely out of place in an advanced 21st century world. Learning about the last 30 years of American history has made me even more convinced this is the case. I usually keep this feeling to myself and don't berate people in real life with my views, though. Am I still a douchebag?

 

[Mobius 1]

Reporting for duty.

 

[Bear]

Gnostic atheism doesn't make any sense to me - how can you know there isn't any god? To me, that particular brand of atheism seems about as faith based as any religious angle. Even Dawkins is agnostic atheist - on his own scale in The God Delusion, he claims to be around 6.9 out of 7 (7 being completely 100% gnostic atheist, 1 being utterly convinced of God's existence).

The entire idea of gods hinges on a few key points, mainly the formation of the universe, the origin of life (especially human life) and seemingly supernatural blessings/revelations. All of these are understood well enough (not fully) that God doesn't need to be part of the equation, which takes away entire basis for believing that one could exist.

Many people separate belief in religion from a general creator or deity, but in my eyes they are one and the same. Once you "disprove" religion (I use that term loosely), I don't think there is any reason to maintain the idea of God as a possibility. I wouldn't use the word "know" because that implies evidence, but if I'm being completely blunt I don't consider it to have any validity whatsoever.

I know that's not how most people see it, and it's hard put a very personal way of thought into words, but from my perspective I'd still put myself at 7.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

The "what are atheists like?" section is really dumb.

Not all atheists are part of some unifying anti-theism/skepticism movement. If atheism is like non-stamp collecting, then there shouldn't be unifying characteristics like you suggest.

I think there is possibly some crossover between atheism - a simple lack of believe - and the New Atheism movement in particular.

 

[Dice]

The "what are atheists like?" section is really dumb.

I agree. It should be scrapped.

 

[AnathemicOne]

Growing up an Atheist liberal in a conservative Christian town made me pretty militant towards religion. It's a scourge on intellectual and social progress, and is entirely out of place in an advanced 21st century world. Learning about the last 30 years of American history have made me even more convinced this is the case. I usually keep this feeling to myself and don't berate people in real life with my views, though. Am I still a douchebag?

I don't believe so. I had some douchebag athiest friends back in high school and bashed Christianity on any chance they got, think that would be the defining like of being a douchebag athiest or not.

 

[Trey]

How could you raise kids with someone who would teach them the opposite of what you would? Not to be a big downer on your relationship, but I just personally don't get how people do it. Even not wanting kids, I think the most serious faith I could roll with in a relationship is a really passive daoist or buddhist.

You could expose them to your point of view, and let her do the same, hopefully giving them balance and the ability to decide for themselves what they choose to follow. If you remove children from the equation, could you imagine loving a religious person? You acknowledge there can be decent religious people? So why would you reject the notion of you children being good, attractive, decent people while they are also religious?

 

[forknknife]

Yay! I'm like super atheist, I don't believe in anything! Wooooo!

 

[zoukka]

I never said every single religious person is the same and ascribes to the same 5 rituals I listed. We are talking about religious belief as a whole, I was pointing out the bad that comes from believing fairy tale nonsense to be literal, factual, truth.

So because people accept things without evidence every day it suddenly makes all religions more valid and correct? If someone created a thread on Harry Potter, and how it's the greatest true-to-life story ever told, are they not ignorant? Why not? Because a lot of people accept things with no evidence every day?

Just wanted to point out your flawed logic and semantics. You and me take most things surrounding as granted without any evidence at all. And if you mention religion "as a whole" it's stupid to then list just the bad things that are happening in the name of religion. Your agenda becomes crystal clear and eats away credibility from the rest of your post. (And reminds me of my younger self that I wrote about in the post you originally quoted :b)

 

[Cymbal Head]

While there might not be much to discuss about dictionary atheism, I'm happy this thread is here.

I mean we could have a Philosophical Naturalism-GAF OT, a Secular Social Justice-GAF OT, an Anti-Theist-GAF OT, and so on. But none of those would be as much fun as I'm sure this thread will be.

Bring on "why we still got monkeys" and "but isn't atheism just another form of faith."

Edit: In the time it took me to type this reply, we already got a hit on the second.

 

[mackattk]

I always liked Mark Twain's thoughts on death.

"I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit."

 

[BruiserBear]

You could expose them to your point of view, and let her do the same, hopefully giving them balance and the ability to decide for themselves what they choose to follow. If you remove children from the equation, could you imagine loving a religious person? You acknowledge there can be decent religious people? So why would you reject the notion of you children being good, attractive, decent people while they are also religious?

I don't believe he did that.


Being a Jehovah's Witness and being an atheist are two very different views of the world. As someone already mentioned, Jehovah's Witnesses don't even believe in certain medical procedures. Can you imagine your kid getting sick, and you and your wife go to war over how to deal with it at the hospital? Not good.

Bring on "why we still got monkeys" and "but isn't atheism just another form of faith."

already happened on the first page.

 

[Dice]

You could expose them to your point of view, and let her do the same, hopefully giving them balance and the ability to decide for themselves what they choose to follow. If you remove children from the equation, could you imagine loving a religious person? You acknowledge there can be decent religious people? So why would you reject the notion of you children being good, attractive, decent people while they are also religious?

It has nothing to do with people being worthwhile or not. It's hatred of religion in general. I wouldn't say "This is what I believe and your mother believes in different things" I would say "This is truth and how you determine what is true and your mother believes something that is batshit insane for the following baseless reasons..."

 

[Klocker]

signed up!

I think it's good to talk about it because a lot of people feel lonely being an ahteist. It is easier to just go with the flow and this helps to secure that our thoughts are shared by others even though we do not congregate to reassure those values on a weekly basis (some do)

I am not a closet atheist with friends or family but being a small business owner in a very religious community I do NOT discuss it openly because Atheists are distrusted as much as rapists.


It's time for a change. Most people that know me and then subsequently find I am not a believer are shocked that a moral person such as myself is "one of those".

Spoiler

I tell them that I found my own moral compass right inside myself. shocking...

 

[NullPointer]

Not quite atheist myself but I appreciate the growing trend towards it as an answer to fully irrational religious dogma/control/shame/xenophobia/hypocrisy.

Quick question though: Am I safe in assuming atheists are materialists? And if so, do the atheists here believe in free will? or is the self and free will an illusion, and we're basically chemical automatons just going through deterministic stimulus-response motions?

 

[Bombadil]

What kind of atheist am I if I often apply common sense when debating about religion, gods and spirituality?

What's common sense?

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Atheists huh? I'll show you guys!

If there's no god howcome there's neogaf huh? Can't explain that.

 

[zoukka]

Not quite atheist myself but I appreciate the growing trend towards it as an answer to fully irrational religious dogma/control/shame/xenophobia/hypocrisy.

Quick question though: Am I safe in assuming atheists are materialists? And if so, do the atheists here believe in free will? or is the self and free will an illusion, and we're basically chemical automatons just going through deterministic stimulus-response motions?

If you purely believe in scientific explanation, then free will does not exist.

 

[Seraphis Cain]

Atheists huh? I'll show you guys!

If there's no god howcome there's neogaf huh? Can't explain that.

You've convinced me. There is a god, and his name is Evilore. PRAISE BE TO EVILORE.

 

[Scapegoat]

Just wanted to point out your flawed logic and semantics. You and me take most things surrounding as granted without any evidence at all. And if you mention religion "as a whole" it's stupid to then list just the bad things that are happening in the name of religion. Your agenda becomes crystal clear and eats away credibility from the rest of your post. (And reminds me of my younger self that I wrote about in the post you originally quoted :b)

I may take things for granted/without evidence but I don't make far reaching decisions based on those assumptions that infringe on the rights of others. In any case the type of assumptions I make without evidence do not even approach ideas such as a virgin birth, god sending himself to Earth to be tortured and killed, woman coming from the rib of a man.

No doubt religion brings a lot of good into countless peoples lives, however it's still built on believing insane things without evidence. These people would still be good people without God. Most of them won't be doing good things because they want to get into heaven, they do it because it's right/moral to help others in need.

My agenda was simply to describe the illogical beliefs associated with religion.

I would love (no sarcasm) to hear more about how you view religion now with a bit of experience behind you. As a child I firmly believed in being tolerant of other people and accepting of their beliefs, to which I would say I still ascribe too, however as I got older and learnt more, it become ever clearer how ridiculous the notion of region was to me, and that people actually believe these things. It annoys me now as an adult that as a child when I asked my teacher "is Santa real?" I got a very clear and concise "no.", however when I asked "is God real?" the best I would get would be "maybe" or "no one knows".

 

[sinxtanx]

I'm an atheist because I read a picture book about dinosaurs when I was like 5

 

[waypoetic]

I'm an atheist because I read a picture book about dinosaurs when I was like 5

Dinosaurs are awesome. What's your favorite?