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[Trin]

I don't really get this question. If you believe that there is no consciousness in death, then there is nothing to 'deal' with when you are dead. Moreover, since it is not possible to really conceive of non-existent consciousness, there is nothing scary that you can imagine about it when you are alive. It makes more sense to ask how people who believe in eternal life deal with the permanence of life, since that is something you would actually have to experience.

Maybe you meant to say "how do you deal with the impermanence of life?" Well, life's stages are full of impermanence - the impermanence of childhood, the impermanence of beauty, the impermanence of love. Impermanence is one of the main things we celebrate in life.

I feel that you're focusing too much on semantics. My intent was to encompass both ideas, the reality that life is impermanent and that death is the unavoidable finality, and how we live and cope with those concepts.

.

Both your comment and that thread were very interesting reads. I've enjoyed some healthy debates over religion, but heaven has always been a topic that I've never felt comfortable "taking off the gloves" to discuss with a person of faith. Partly because I empathize with their need to believe a comforting lie and also because - unlike the topics of evolution, earth's age, the creation of the universe, and abortion - I'm okay with people deciding on an explanation that suits their emotional needs.

 

[HalfBakedProphet]

The truth is I won't ever believe in God, eternal souls, or heaven, but I wish I could sometimes. I imagine with envy that there must be a comforting sense of security that comes with the unshakable faith it's not really over when we're gone and all my loved ones aren't just going to be dirt someday.

I had a long conversation with my younger sister about this subject over break, she mentioned the sense of relief and comfort she gets from going to church and reading the bible. I can't fault her, dealing with doubt and the unknown (like what happens when you die) can be difficult sometimes. Like you mentioned, Ill never believe in a soul or heaven, at least not as they've been presented to me being raised in a Catholic household. I have some very strong biases and issues against the catholic church and organized religion in general, but I don't blame people for taking that path. I used too, but I've "stared into the abyss" so to speak during a near death experience. The idea of an afterlife is extremely attractive after that.

That said, I could never "go back" to believing in the Abrahamic god. I'd be lying to myself if I did. I'll take evidence and cold truth over comfort any day.

 

[Bombadil]

That has nothing to do with whether something is valid/true or not.

If an agnostic doesn't want to be atheist because he thinks atheists are rude then he doesn't care about what's right or wrong just how he feels.

What's right or wrong, Angry Fork?

 

[Ashodin]

Honestly it's not an issue to me in terms of 'oh god, it's forever', because I know consciously that death is just nothingness for my thought processes. I'm not going to be able to ruminate on the idea of it when I die, so I know it's rather pointless to do it now. The electrical spark that is my life will go out, and I'll decompose and my atoms eventually with disseminate and do other things.

What it does do is motivate me to try to make things work with my family while they're still alive, and to live life in the pursuit of enjoying myself as much as possible. If I am not enjoying myself or doing something that is going to lead to enjoying myself, I say internally, then why bother?

This is actually a surprising inclusive line of thought - charity is enjoyable. Being with family is enjoyable. Raising a kid is enjoyable. Watching the stars, going to the amusement park, listening to music, watching movies and playing games. Working hard so I can feel good about what I accomplished in a day, and then realizing the money I get can be used to build a better life down the line. These are all enjoyable things, and so as long as I am getting that feedback in my mind that says it's pleasurable, I feel like I'm living life satisfactorily.

My man.

 

[waypoetic]

I want to thank you guys for keeping it clean! I'm glad we finally have an OT for this.

 

[HalfBakedProphet]

I have answered this question a million times, but I will sum it up quickly and say: religion doesn't necessarily always conclude that the universe has an intelligent personality. But Buddhism still asserts a particular nature of reality and prescribes a way to live within it. Buddhism is atheist, it lacks a God, but is still very much a religion: clergy, temples, scriptures, dogmas, cosmology, etc.

I've been a loooonng time lurker here on GAF, you've always been one of my favorite posters. Ive always had an intellectual interest in Buddhism but some of your views and posts helped me get more serious about meditating. No joke! I attended a Soto Zen ceremony a few weeks back, some of the rituals and stuff kinda turned me off but it was an interesting experience.

 

[Kurdel]

In general, I don't see the point of atheism as a movement. It would be mre productive to encourage people to operate rationally and skeptically instead of just inviting them to the "There is no God" country club.

On the other hand, I cannot deny the impact of the new atheism movement in popularizing atheism on the Internet and our western culture. It's just depressing to read stuff like r/Atheism, and seeing people who self identify as atheists but uphold irrational beliefs. We can find differing levels of cognitive dissonance in groups of people, but in a group that lauds critical thought and reason, it is depressing to see belief in UFOs or conspiracy theories.

 

[waypoetic]

In general, I don't see the point of atheism as a movement.

We're not a movement.

 

[NullPointer]

In general, I don't see the point of atheism as a movement.

Anything marginalized for no good reason can be a movement, lead to positive change, and then disappear when it is no longer needed or relevant.

 

[User 100115]

You sound like you are probably pantheist.



I think this is what I roll with. Although I was raised in a Christian background, so I suppose I could be agnostic Christian? I am not a religious person at all however so I suppose it could swing all over the place.

I'd actually never heard of that before, so I looked it up.

"Pantheism is considered the polar opposite of atheism."

Aw, man, but...

"Richard Dawkins called pantheism 'a sexed up version of atheism'."

...alright I can live with that.

 

[Like the hat?]

Count me in with those that say they wish they could believe in something. I feel like it might make things like death, violence, etc a little easier to accept. I dunno. I wish I believed that there was some place I went after I died, but I know I'll just end up a pile of ashes.

 

[that1dude24]

i found the "relief" granted was fleeting for one (anecdotal) religion.

i had a conversation with my father at my grandparent's house about his faith. i don't remember how it started up, but it was a fairly civil, albeit slightly emotional talk. to make a long story short, he had a fear that god was going to send him to hell (or "nothingness") if he died - feeling guilty about things he did as a father and (more importantly) in the vietnam war. this was also paired with his ptsd, where he claims he relives the moments from the war every night he dreams. i deconstructed his arguments for a christian god, a benevolent god, a judging god (how can god judge you for neural or social forces "he" knows we have no control over), and essentially had him get to god of the gaps, where we both agreed that we wouldn't know for sure. he seemed emotionally relieved by the end of it.

 

[Hawkian]

"Richard Dawkins called pantheism 'a sexed up version of atheism'."

why hello richard

 

[Dr Dogg]

Speaking of Richard Dawkins he did 2 very good documentary's from Channel 4 in the UK, Enemy's Of Reason and Faith School Menace? He does come across a little heavy handed sometimes but when his points which are valid and based on evidence and reasoning are shrugged off I can kind of see why.

 

[Trin]

Count me in with those that say they wish they could believe in something. I feel like it might make things like death, violence, etc a little easier to accept. I dunno. I wish I believed that there was some place I went after I died, but I know I'll just end up a pile of ashes.

Looks like you and I share something in common then. As others have mentioned (and significantly brightened my mood), taking in the joys of life day by day and an appreciation for the incredible things that surround us now is something worth believing in. I was also moved by an earlier comment about influencing history to truly exist beyond death as a tangible imprint on the world.

Love the hat, by the way.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

So what's an atheist like?
An atheist is an open-minded person, a curious person, a free-thinker and someone with questions like ”how?”, "when?" and "but what about the evidence?". An individual that has his/hers moral values and ethic philosophy rooted from either it's parents and family, it's nation and it's politics and history, or he/she makes a lovely polite soup of it all!

How full of yourself do you have to be to label all atheists this way? And you even dropped the word "polite" which is so random, its like you went to a thesaurus for positive descriptions. I don't think having an absurd generalization of atheists in the OP as what's read as nearly perfect people, is good for a topic like this.

 

[waypoetic]

How full of yourself do you have to be to label all atheists this way? And you even dropped the word "polite" which is so random, its like you went to a thesaurus for positive descriptions.

Full of myself? Cool, be rude. So you're closed-minded? You don't question things? You're not curious? If you disagree with where you get your morals from, sure, i can edit that part out if a majority here thinks that that part is complete bullshit.

 

[Bear]

Count me in with those that say they wish they could believe in something. I feel like it might make things like death, violence, etc a little easier to accept. I dunno. I wish I believed that there was some place I went after I died, but I know I'll just end up a pile of ashes.

Really? I'm exactly the opposite, things like this make sense to me as an unavoidable byproduct of life. I'd be much more bothered by it if it was the doing of an all-powerful, morally superior apathist on an ego trip.

 

[Angry Fork]

What's right or wrong, Angry Fork?

Atheism is valid.
Deism not invalid unless you would rather say god created the big bang then wait for a proper scientific explanation (or you don't accept the theories put forth).
Agnosticism is not valid.
Theism is not valid.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Full of myself? Cool, be rude. So you're closed-minded? You don't question things? You're not curious? If you disagree with where you get your morals from, sure, i can edit that part out if a majority here thinks that that part is complete bullshit.

There are atheists who get their morals from sports players, parents, orphans, peaceful animals, textbooks, public figures, and the various life experiences they have. So yeah.

There are atheists who are close-minded. Who believe in ghosts, good/bad luck, or destiny. Being atheist does not automatically fill-out that description in the OP.

Also, I don't mean to come off as rude, but I don't like mass generalizations in general(hey!). Especially in a topic dedicated to reason and logic. Makes no sense. Building certain people up as hyper-superior(before the first reply even) is off-putting.

 

[Reneledarker]

Hello guys.

I am an atheist from Tijuana, Mexico. In my city most people are religious. I am pretty open about being an atheist, most people freak out, but so far I have not faced any sort of discrimination.

Here in Tijuana some people like to call themselves atheist, but they believe in things like spiritual energy, energy rocks, etcetera. I wonder, are they only people that do not believe in god and religion and not atheists?

Also I do not believe in morality, to me it is just a society creation used to limit the emancipatory power of humans.
I believe that there are actions that taking into account our social context they just make sense to do.

 

[DonMigs85]

I honestly want to believe that there is a higher power out there but find it more and more difficult to convince myself. I'm probably teetering towards agnosticism.
It's just that I have this nagging doubt that the human mind could have arisen purely from natural forces. If not God, maybe alien influence?

 

[Bombadil]

Atheism is valid.
Deism not invalid unless you would rather say god created the big bang then wait for a proper scientific explanation (or you don't accept the theories put forth).
Agnosticism is not valid.
Theism is not valid.

"I'm right. You're wrong. There is no right or wrong, but you're wrong."

 

[FACE]

"The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.

"Atheism: The Case Against God" by George Smith.

"Letter To The Christian Nation" by Sam Harris.

"Every Day Is An Atheist Holiday" by Penn Jilette.

"God Is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens.

"Atheist Universe: The Thinking Person's Answer to Christian Fundamentalism" by David Mills.

"Why Evolution Is True" - by Jerry A. Coyne.

One of those is not like the others.

 

[Trey]

I honestly want to believe that there is a higher power out there but find it more and more difficult to convince myself. I'm probably teetering towards agnosticism.
It's just that I have this nagging doubt that the human mind could have arisen purely from natural forces. If not God, maybe alien influence?

That's just your sense of self fucking with you. We have no reality beyond what we perceive. So of course we rationalize that it would take a conscious to produce a conscious.

 

[waypoetic]

There are atheists who get their morals from sports players, parents, orphans, peaceful animals, textbooks, public figures, and the various life experiences they have. So yeah.

There are atheists who are close-minded. Who believe in ghosts, good/bad luck, or destiny. Being atheist does not automatically fill-out that description in the OP.

I actually mentioned family and parents. The numerous "sources" i wrote down are some of the most common ones. I don't mean for anyone to take offense, if you are missing something i'm open for suggestions.

 

[NullPointer]

That's just your sense of self fucking with you. We have no reality beyond what we perceive. So of course we rationalize that it would take a conscious to produce a conscious.

 

[angelkimne]

Count me in with those that say they wish they could believe in something. I feel like it might make things like death, violence, etc a little easier to accept. I dunno. I wish I believed that there was some place I went after I died, but I know I'll just end up a pile of ashes.

I don't know. I sometimes find atheism and naturalism quite comforting.

Firstly, because there's no god watching me do things. In on all my secrets and mistakes. No god to judge me. Lot less creepy, lot less stressful!

Secondly, the knowledge that we're all just a bunch of unspecial atoms often helps me to 'let go' and cheer up. The meaninglessness of reality has the strange effect of making me happier.

Thirdly, because atheism helps me to pretend I'm cleverer than everybody else. And in the long run, that pretence has a highly positive effect on my mood.

 

[BocoDragon]

I've been a loooonng time lurker here on GAF, you've always been one of my favorite posters. Ive always had an intellectual interest in Buddhism but some of your views and posts helped me get more serious about meditating. No joke! I attended a Soto Zen ceremony a few weeks back, some of the rituals and stuff kinda turned me off but it was an interesting experience.

Wow, that's an amazing honor! Thanks for the compliment. It's funny to know that my Internet rambling actually infuences people in the real world. But then, I've been influenced by others here as well.

I'm sure you know by now, the tradition packaging of meditation doesn't matter at all (unless you find it useful). It seems pretty understandable if you are turned off by rituals. If it's not for you, then it's not for you. (and actually I did a paper last year.. it turns out many Zen teachers were grateful for the transition to the west so that they could dispense with the old forms and reinvent the tradition aknew. Like "old wine in new bottles", they said. Even these Zen masters might have been turned off by the same rituals So there are Zens and meditation groups that are highly secular out there, if you like. (Buddhist history is a back and forth between stripping down religious baggage to nothing and building it back up to fantastic heights again... But I digress).

I don't consider myself Buddhist either (or consider myself anything, really). I've been influenced by Buddhist thought, no doubt. There's a kind of halfway position where we can use these contemplative theories to free ourselves from everyday mental fantasies, and not to build up new ones...

 

[waypoetic]

One of those is not like the others.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Orayn]

Speaking of Richard Dawkins he did 2 very good documentary's from Channel 4 in the UK, Enemy's Of Reason and Faith School Menace? He does come across a little heavy handed sometimes but when his points which are valid and based on evidence and reasoning are shrugged off I can kind of see why.

What a coincidence, I just watched these specials earlier today! Like you said, he can come off as a little heavy-handed, yeah, but I can't say I disagree basic points he's making. Beyond that, "heavy-handed" is a far cry from him being "venomous" or the Fred Phelps of atheism as some people like to claim.

 

[nib95]

This section made me laugh out loud. A tad pompous to define an entire group of people such a way simply because they do not believe in God no? Unfortunately no person is automatically void of being narrow minded or impolite just because of one specific or particular belief they may hold.

So what's an atheist like?
An atheist is an open-minded person, a curious person, a free-thinker and someone with questions like ”how?”, "when?" and "but what about the evidence?". An individual that has his/hers moral values and ethic philosophy rooted from either it's parents and family, it's nation and it's politics and history, or he/she makes a lovely polite soup of it all! (I wrote this and had Stephen Fry's voice dictating it in my head)

Logo is pretty cool. Though I think the colour combination does make it look a bit nefarious.

 

[AnathemicOne]

Atheism is valid.
Deism not invalid unless you would rather say god created the big bang then wait for a proper scientific explanation (or you don't accept the theories put forth).
Agnosticism is not valid.
Theism is not valid.

Would love to see the reasoning behind this

 

[FACE]

Care to elaborate?

Why Evolution is true is a popular science book that tries to present the evidence of evolution to the reader, the others are mostly about atheism.

 

[Paper Fox]

I consider myself an athiest. My mother is religious, and raised me as a Catholic ("raised" as in I went to a Catholic school and occasionally went to church when I was younger).
I had one person tell me that my mother was a sociopath for doing so.

 

[waypoetic]

This section made me laugh out loud.

Glad i could be to your amusement.

 

[Like the hat?]

Looks like you and I share something in common then. As others have mentioned (and significantly brightened my mood), taking in the joys of life day by day and an appreciation for the incredible things that surround us now is something worth believing in. I was also moved by an earlier comment about influencing history to truly exist beyond death as a tangible imprint on the world.

Love the hat, by the way.

Usually I have no problem with my lack of religious belief. It's mostly when I think about my kids or something. Sometimes at night I picture them as old men, on their death bed, and it just makes me wish that that would never happen to them.

I guess it's just because they mean so much to me, I dunno.

 

[Dr Dogg]

Count me in with those that say they wish they could believe in something. I feel like it might make things like death, violence, etc a little easier to accept. I dunno. I wish I believed that there was some place I went after I died, but I know I'll just end up a pile of ashes.

Well it could be argued that most nations in the west do not openly talk about death whether that be due to cultural differences or beliefs compared to most eastern countries. Though I have always felt that most of the people I have encountered in my small lifetime have used their religion or belief as an excuse for their actions or lack there of to the point of "It doesn't matter if I didn't make amends with my father, I'll see him in heaven." or "I may have done some bad things but don't worry there's another chance". Since I was 9 years old and started to question what I was being told I started to live for today not something I've only heard story's of.

 

[Bombadil]

I consider myself an athiest. My mother is religious, and raised me as a Catholic ("raised" as in I went to a Catholic school and occasionally went to church when I was younger).
I had one person tell me that my mother was a sociopath for doing so.

Do you think she is?

Some people think baptizing children and taking them to church is child abuse.

 

[waypoetic]

Why Evolution is true is a popular science book that tries to present the evidence of evolution to the reader, the others are mostly about atheism.

Would you disagree with me when i say that atheism is pro-evolution?

 

[Orayn]

Those Dawkins specials got me thinking... Some religious people live in a world of utter depravity where human beings are vile, evil creatures that will murder and steal to their hearts' content without the promise of heaven and threat of hell. Somehow, this gives them the authority to tell atheists, who generally think that humans are eusocial animals and usually pretty decent to each other, are the real nihilistic sociopaths.

 

[Amir0x]

Both your comment and that thread were very interesting reads. I've enjoyed some healthy debates over religion, but heaven has always been a topic that I've never felt comfortable "taking off the gloves" to discuss with a person of faith. Partly because I empathize with their need to believe a comforting lie and also because - unlike the topics of evolution, earth's age, the creation of the universe, and abortion - I'm okay with people deciding on an explanation that suits their emotional needs.

My main thing about the concept of religion as I've come to be OK with certain things, is really that I'm fine with people believing as long as they're not being religious and then doing the following things:

1. Trying to actively pass laws based on some religious value from their faith that impact everyone in their native country. This is tantamount to forcing religion down people's throat, and it's also astonishingly dangerous to the overall progress of the society these laws impact. So I have no love for religious people who do this, and have no problem arguing with them.

2. Using religion as a shield to justify one's disgusting thoughts. Re: Anti-homosexuality crusades, defense of pedophilia/rape/genocide in the Bible with stuff like "God knows what he's doing it" or "it's in the Bible, so it's right", anti-abortion, etc. I feel like this is an incredibly cowardly way of trying to purge oneself of responsibility for being an morally bankrupt anti-social douchenozzle, ya know? In the atheism-v.-theism thread there were a few people explicitly doing just that, and these were the only times I really got genuinely angry at the debate. It's just so nasty to say these things are OK when you're a functional, relatively mentally handicap-free individual who lives in modern times.


Things that don't bother me... like, when someone tries to preach to me casually. I know this annoys so many people, but it really doesn't annoy me. I feel like I've become fine with this because I realize the motivation most people who do this have when they start preaching. As they truly believe in the foundations of their faith, most of these people also have some sense that if they don't do this, they are letting that person die eternally since they believe in an afterlife or paradise or some reward that lets you be forever with your loved ones and in God's "holy light." So really preaching to someone is an expression of love, when you think about it. They really think they're trying to save your life - or abstractly, one's everlasting soul. It's really sweet when you view it in that sense, and it's how I smile warmly whenever my Mother tries to get me to go back to congregation. It's all love

My man.

Brotherhood of the Hedonists

 

[Dr Dogg]

What a coincidence, I just watched these specials earlier today! Like you said, he can come off as a little heavy-handed, yeah, but I can't say I disagree basic points he's making. Beyond that, "heavy-handed" is a far cry from him being "venomous" or the Fred Phelps of atheism as some people like to claim.

Well the section where he is reading out his hate mail puts it into perspective how heated some people get with him. Yes Fred Phelps is a rather twisted individual and that Louis Theroux documentary really painted the perfect picture of that "church".

 

[BocoDragon]

The border between "way of life" and "religion" is usually whether the belief system involves supernatural metaphysics (afterlife, etc.). Buddhism is certainly a religion, but something like Confucianism is a philosophy (or way of life, if you prefer).

Confucianism is still a religion by that standard. It contains assumptions about ancestor worship, etc.

Plus I personally like to think that religion is often defined by the fact that it attains a place of axiomatic truth in a cult or a larger society. It is assumed to be "just true" by that society, used to explain the world, and laud/criticize others by their adherence to its logic.

Confucianism is a little like Neoplatonism. The founding figure was just talking philosophy, but the way that their ideas were assumed to be truth by the followers actually made it religion. For hundreds of years in China, Confucius' thought was asserted to be Truth, so it was religion. The relative lack of gods seems trivial when you realize that people still believed this stuff in the same unquestioning way as in most religion.

But then again, ideologies like Communism were used similarly in places like 1950s/60s China, where they quoted Marxist and Maoist books at each other to jocky for favor in the society hard to call a economic theory "religion", but I'd say there were moments where it attained religious status...

 

[FACE]

Would you disagree with me when i say that atheism is pro-evolution?

Nope, just thought it was odd to see a popular science book between all those books about atheism. The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan would be more in line with the other books you recommended.

Edit: And ,if I recall correctly, Coyne says that his book is not about atheism in the introduction. He does poke creationists/IDers here and there though.

 

[Altazor]

I think I'm a weak atheist, or at least I would fit in your description of one. I don't really care about what other people think as long as they don't violate other people's rights (and, mine, of course). I'm not really about patronizing and having the superior moral ground on moral, spiritual or whatever issue, I just don't think there's a god and I certainly don't believe in churches and all that stuff.

It's kinda difficult to be an atheist in a predominantly christian country (Chile), in which there IS an official separation between church and state but in which most authorities refer to "god's power", "god willing", and all that when they do speeches and defend their position. It's kinda difficult because both my parents are religious although they aren't fundies - they haven't been exactly supportive with my lack of faith. They sometimes ask me why I don't believe and what if the world comes crashing down on me, who do I ask for support... and in that case, well, I told them I believe in them, and in all my loved ones, that they are my support. It's been kinda hard because most people assume you do certain stuff (go to church, pray for miracles, thank god, blah) and they look down upon you if you don't. It's been kinda hard because some authorities believe we atheists are the root of all evil and depravity and everything that's wrong with the modern world.
But on the other hand, we are not prosecuted for our beliefs, we do not face death for refusing to believe in an official religion, and my family isn't disowning me for not sharinf their faith. It hasn't been extremely difficult but it's not the sweetest thing ever.

All in all, I'm calmed and confident about my (lack of) belief. I went through a very christian phase, then I just had doubts and that agnosticism became atheism with the passage of time. I don't regret it at all.

 

[waypoetic]

Nope, just thought it was odd to see a popular science book between all those books about atheism. The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan would be more in line with the other books you recommended.

I'll put that book on the list then. Thanks for the tip

 

[pigeon interrupted]

I honestly want to believe that there is a higher power out there but find it more and more difficult to convince myself. I'm probably teetering towards agnosticism.
It's just that I have this nagging doubt that the human mind could have arisen purely from natural forces. If not God, maybe alien influence?

I'm pretty much the polar opposite. The forces of nature fill me with awe. So powerful and amazing. Creation and destruction right there in front of us. Even a sunny day is life affirming to me, let alone stuff like this.

.
It's a crying shame we will never get to see Uranus in our lifetime

Humanity is the pinnacle of intelligent life because we adapted and used our brains to decipher ever more complex tasks questions, imo. Religion is a defence mechanism which we created to reign in the darker side of nature that lurks in our genetic makeup. We were smart enough to do that. Hopefully can use our brains to overcome the savage. Maybe religion still exists because we just aren't at that place yet.

 

[FACE]

I'll put that book on the list then. Thanks for the tip

It's a damn good book even though the last couple of chapters are a bit too US centered for my taste.

 

[Paper Fox]

Do you think she is?

Some people think baptizing children and taking them to church is child abuse.

No way, course not.
And he used that term as well, called it "child abuse". Iirc he also compared it to being raped.