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[Corky]

When I was a kid I had trouble sleeping one night due to a fever. Minutes felt like hours and I kept rolling around in the bed, then all of the sudden a bright light shines in through my open door and as I literally hold up my hand and try to shield myself from the light I can discern the silhouette of a man in armor as light rays shine past and over his shoulders.

It was really eerie, I've attributed it to the delirium/hallucinations due to the fever but I've never told this to anyone and had more or less repressed it until this very moment that I decided to share it in this thread. It was weird to say the least.

 

[Log4Girlz]

When I was a kid I had trouble sleeping one night due to a fever. Minutes felt like hours and I kept rolling around in the bed, then all of the sudden a bright light shines in through my open door and as I literally hold up my hand and try to shield myself from the light I can discern the silhouette of a man in armor as light rays shine past and over his shoulders.

It was really eerie, I've attributed it to the delirium/hallucinations due to the fever but I've never told this to anyone and had more or less repressed it until this very moment that I decided to share it in this thread. It was weird to say the least.

Praise the sun.

 

[Ronok]

Four:
I suppose the next two are things that must only be said to be coincidence, but it's some crazy coincidence. One day I was walking somewhere and it was clearly just about to rain, the clouds were very low and it has all the signs and senses. I still had a couple blocks to go so I prayed that God would hold back the rain until I reached where I was going. Trusting that, I just took a leisurely pace. The very second I walked into the door of where I was going it started to rain, and within 10 seconds it was a torrential downpour. Pretty crazy timing. I didn't have a habit of praying like that, it was the only time and "it worked."

Five:
Another time I was up in Chicago taking a survey with people at houses of a neighborhood or leaving a survey for them to fill out if they weren't home. I was going down one side of the street and my friend was going down the other side. He reached a house with a massive beast of a very angry dog behind a screen door. He was terrified and didn't want to go near it. I said have some faith, man, and while it was still barking at us I said a simple prayer asking God to calm the dog down. Before I even got to saying "Amen" the dog instantly shut up, and when I walked to the door, it was cowering and slightly whimpering looking up at me... What the fuck is that?!

Even if I were a religious person I'd hope they were coincidences. You'd have to be a pretty big asshole to ignore all them prayers from people who have real problems, and then grant you two bullshit wishes to avoid rain and a stupid dog.

 

[captainnapalm]

Obligatory

Sorry, incredibly dull monotone voice guy, I switched off after about 40 seconds. Science is open-minded, he says. Well, it's not open to anything that doesn't conform to it's incredibly narrow view of what reality is, namely everything we can touch, taste, hear or see. That's not being open-minded.

 

[Gregorn]

Not an atheist, but when I was around 9 I was out in the backyard playing with friends when everything around me suddenly stopped moving. I immediately saw some egyptian hieroglyphic type things pan across from left to right at eye level. Quickly after I heard a very strange gargling sound, which I interpreted at the time as an alien's voice (i used to read about UFOs). This all happened in ~6 sec.

There's no way this happened to you and you've casually gone on with your life. If I believed Egyptian Gods were trying to speak to me by freezing all of time I'd make it my life goal to find out what happened.

It's the same with a lot of these stories, I don't know how you can be like "well, ghosts are real and there's an evil force at work trying destroy us all, but I'm going to continue working at a post office and updating my facebook everyday".

Sorry, incredibly dull monotone voice guy, I switched off after about 40 seconds. Science is open-minded, he says. Well, it's not open to anything that doesn't conform to it's incredibly narrow view of what reality is, namely everything we can touch, taste, hear or see. That's not being open-minded.

More like captain facepalm, amirte?

 

[captainnapalm]

There's no way this happened to you and you've casually gone on with your life. If I believed Egyptian Gods were trying to speak to me by freezing all of time I'd make it my life goal to find out what happened.

It's the same with a lot of these stories, I don't know how you can be like "well, ghosts are real and there's an evil force at work trying destroy us all, but I'm going to continue working at a post office and updating my facebook everyday".



More like captain facepalm, amirte?

Substance, not insults, please. How can I take you seriously otherwise?

 

[Aiii]

Sorry, incredibly dull monotone voice guy, I switched off after about 40 seconds. Science is open-minded, he says. Well, it's not open to anything that doesn't conform to it's incredibly narrow view of what reality is, namely everything we can touch, taste, hear or see. That's not being open-minded.

Wait, what? That's not even remotely close.

Some people just have the strangest idea about what science is.

 

[captainnapalm]

There's no way this happened to you and you've casually gone on with your life. If I believed Egyptian Gods were trying to speak to me by freezing all of time I'd make it my life goal to find out what happened.

It's the same with a lot of these stories, I don't know how you can be like "well, ghosts are real and there's an evil force at work trying destroy us all, but I'm going to continue working at a post office and updating my facebook everyday".



More like captain facepalm, amirte?

Also, no, experiences like that don't always change everything. Weird shit happens and you move on. You don't quite know what to make of it, it passes quickly and you go on with your life.

 

[captainnapalm]

Wait, what? That's not even remotely close.

Some people just have the strangest idea about what science is.

So science does not believe in a strictly material universe? That is news to me.

 

[Necromanti]

So science does not believe in a strictly material universe? That is news to me.

There are things that are obviously beyond what we can perceive with our senses. The majority of the EM spectrum, for example.

 

[BigDes]

I hate seeing all these Higgs Bosons cluttering up everything, plus they get in my mouth when I'm running and they taste disgusting

 

[Toppot]

Sorry, incredibly dull monotone voice guy, I switched off after about 40 seconds. Science is open-minded, he says. Well, it's not open to anything that doesn't conform to it's incredibly narrow view of what reality is, namely everything we can touch, taste, hear or see. That's not being open-minded.

If science doesn't understand something it considers lots of ideas and asks for evidence of them. You are ignorant to think it is just taste, touch, see or hear. Logic, causality, mathematics, measurements. We can't taste, touch hear or see gravity, we just see the effects of gravity, it doesn't mean its not there.

Not being able to explain something and simply saying it is spiritual/ghosts (There for ironically explaining it) is close minded.

 

[Soodanim]

I don't have a label. Don't believe in the Holy Books. But I do think there's a "God" out there. An unconscious energy that holds everything in balance, including the universe. What am I then, if I were to label myself???
Everything can be explained somehow. That's my motto.

A deist, most likely. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deism

The belief that God has created the universe but remains apart from it and permits his creation to administer itself through natural laws. Deism thus rejects the supernatural aspects of religion, such as belief in revelation in the Bible, and stresses the importance of ethical conduct.

 

[captainnapalm]

There are things that are obviously beyond what we can perceive with our senses. The majority of the EM spectrum, for example.

It's still matter, we just can't see it with the naked eye. Scientists aren't perceiving it with their magic third eye, are they?

 

[BigDes]

It's still matter, we just can't see it with the naked eye. Scientists aren't perceiving it with their magic third eye, are they?

and this makes science less valid how?

 

[Aiii]

So science does not believe in a strictly material universe? That is news to me.

Aside from being completely inaccurate with your statement, let me just itterate two points for you:
1. "Science" is not a sentient being, nor is it a religion. There's no set of rules of what "science" is. Just a set of rules on how to define theories and facts within the community. Big difference.
2. Science is both knowledge and theory. The latter being accepted only with logical and rational reasoning based on what we know at the time the theory is deviced. Therefor any theory can be proven wrong by new finding at any times and no scientist will ever claim 100% accuracy, even in the best of cases.

So no, science doesn't believe in anything. Science is as diverse as you're gonna get. Science is the pursuit of knowledge, not the source of knowledge.

 

[Slavik81]

Sorry, incredibly dull monotone voice guy, I switched off after about 40 seconds. Science is open-minded, he says. Well, it's not open to anything that doesn't conform to it's incredibly narrow view of what reality is, namely everything we can touch, taste, hear or see. That's not being open-minded.

Classic descriptions of supernatural things all can be sensed either directly or indirectly. And, unless the human mind is supernatural itself, something existing only in the mind may leave evidence of its existence too.

However, if something cannot be sensed in any way, it might as well not exist. For instance, a universe with an invisible, untouchable, inaudible unicorn is indistinguishable from one without it, from the perspective of any human being.

 

[Necromanti]

It's still matter, we just can't see it with the naked eye. Scientists aren't perceiving it with their magic third eye, are they?

If you want to get technical, it's not exactly matter...

 

[The Technomancer]

I like how rationalists always come out and say how untrustworthy our senses and cognitive faculties are whenever people bring up weird experiences, yet they use these these same tools to formulate their joyless, meaningless view of the world which they try and foist upon others with an air of implied superiority.

...hence why experiments are repeated over and over and various instruments with better sensitivity then human senses are developed and proper research is peer reviewed. Its not perfect, but its something besides "man, I was really creeped out this one time, there's a credible chance it was caused by a ghost"

Also joyless and meaningless? Really?

The system is fallible, because you are fallible and not all-knowing. Sorry to break that to you. Your science makes a poor all-knowing God.

Science doesn't claim to be all knowing. Just more accurate than its alternatives.

 

[BigDes]

So why are religious ideas/spiritual ideas any less fallible?

Cause I mean any idea of religion you have ultimately either came from other people, or yourself both of which you have admitted to be fallible?

 

[The Technomancer]

Sorry, incredibly dull monotone voice guy, I switched off after about 40 seconds. Science is open-minded, he says. Well, it's not open to anything that doesn't conform to it's incredibly narrow view of what reality is, namely everything we can touch, taste, hear or see. That's not being open-minded.

Did they teach you any history of science in school at all? As just one example, Einstein's theory of relativity completely violated several fundamental assumptions that scientists had held up to that point and presented a radical re-conception of how space and time function. What's more, it absolutely concerned itself with things we cant touch, taste, here and see (let me know the next time you perceive time dilation while you're driving down the highway). And science is filled with all kinds of stories like this. It just doesn't agree with some of what you believe. That doesn't make it close-minded.

Also

I just wish people had more open minds about things at the very least. Science can't prove or observe things that happen in the conscious or subconscious mind of one person, nor can it observe or substantiate anything non-material, so it doesn't seem fair to negate all so-called "supernatural" (really just non-material) phenomena based on those criteria.

We're getting there.

And what does non-material mean? Please tell me. If something is non-material, how does it interact with the material world? And if it interacts with the material world, how can that interaction not be observed?

 

[BobTheBub]

Sorry, incredibly dull monotone voice guy, I switched off after about 40 seconds.

 

[Raist]

As a student Chemist, I'm a reasonably scientific guy, but I can't explain this shit.

Hum...

As a child I grew up deficient of Biotin and Pantothenic Acid, these are important compounds which are strongly linked to healthy neuron development, I grew up with a moderately serious mental condition which causes me to very frequently hallucinate.

?

 

[captainnapalm]

and this makes science less valid how?

It makes it perfectly valid for the study of matter. That's it.

Science has to infer things because it only believes matter is "real", things it can not prove - like for example that consciousness is merely the sum of our biological parts and must too come from matter. And that every human emotion, act or impulse is merely biological driven, as opposed to a connection to a higher reality or purpose which we can not fathom through mere observation.

So science does have a dogma. It's not this unbelievably democratic and awesomely open-minded source for all things true. It clings to its own closely-held beliefs too just like many other belief systems.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

I like how rationalists always come out and say how untrustworthy our senses and cognitive faculties are whenever people bring up weird experiences, yet they use these these same tools to formulate their joyless, meaningless view of the world which they try and foist upon others with an air of implied superiority.

Entertain yourself with fantasy, and understand yourself and the world around you with reason. That is living up to your potential as a human being.

Being disappointed with reason, and using fantasy to understand yourself and the world around you is a betrayal of your humanity.

 

[The Technomancer]

It makes it perfectly valid for the study of matter. That's it.

Science has to infer things because it only believes matter is "real", things it can not prove - like for example that consciousness is merely the sum of our biological parts and must too come from matter. And that every human emotion, act or impulse is merely biological driven, as opposed to a connection to a higher reality or purpose which we can not fathom through mere observation.

So science does have a dogma. It's not this unbelievably democratic and awesomely open-minded source for all things true. It clings to its own closely-held beliefs too just like many other belief systems.

How can something that is non-material interact with the material world? And if it does, how can that interaction not be observed in some way?

 

[Jintor]

So basically unprovable, unobservable concepts don't fit within a framework designed around observation, evidence and repeatability.

 

[BadWolf]

Can't think of any.

 

[Dice]

So basically unprovable, unobservable concepts don't fit within a framework designed around observation, evidence and repeatability.

Yes. And since the only faculties we possess by which to experience and know things are those that are observable, why would you try to go by anything else, and how could you even do so? Anything else can't even be defined, let alone known.

 

[captainnapalm]

Did they teach you any history of science in school at all? As just one example, Einstein's theory of relativity completely violated several fundamental assumptions that scientists had held up to that point and presented a radical re-conception of how space and time function. What's more, it absolutely concerned itself with things we cant touch, taste, here and see (let me know the next time you perceive time dilation while you're driving down the highway). And science is filled with all kinds of stories like this. It just doesn't agree with some of what you believe. That doesn't make it close-minded.

Also

We're getting there.

And what does non-material mean? Please tell me. If something is non-material, how does it interact with the material world? And if it interacts with the material world, how can that interaction not be observed?

The farthest reachest of science can indeed be highly esoteric. I mean, have you ever tried to read any of that stuff about dark matter and that? It's mental. And really quantum theory greatly undermines classical Newtonian physics, but when push comes to shove, most people still fall on these 17th and 18th century crutches to back up their views. The farthest reaches of science aren't really allowed to penetrate, the implications too dramatic and universe-altering to really take hold.

 

[Dice]

The farthest reaches of science aren't really allowed to penetrate, the implications too dramatic and universe-altering to really take hold.

Implications, especially of things which you currently do not have any control over, are not something to base your life on.

 

[BobTheBub]

Entertain yourself with fantasy, and understand yourself and the world around you with reason. That is living up to your potential as a human being.

Being disappointed with reason, and using fantasy to understand yourself and the world around you is a betrayal of your humanity.

Is this a quote? I like it.

 

[Pandaman]

The system is fallible, because you are fallible and not all-knowing. Sorry to break that to you. Your science makes a poor all-knowing God.

All-knowing Gods are mute; so a some-knowing science that speaks up is infinitely superior.

 

[captainnapalm]

How can something that is non-material interact with the material world? And if it does, how can that interaction not be observed in some way?

Thought is non-material and you could argue that is the most fundamental interaction we have with the material world. Everything you see around you wherever you are right now probably comes from thought.

 

[captainnapalm]

Implications, especially of things which you currently do not have any control over, are not something to base your life on.

Like the implication that consciousness is derived from matter?

 

[Orayn]

Like the implication that consciousness is derived from matter?

Thought is non-material and you could argue that is the most fundamental interaction we have with the material world. Everything you see around you wherever you are right now probably comes from thought.

Old-fashioned Cartesian dualist, eh? I'm looking forward to you explaining away all of neuroscience in one fell swoop.

 

[Aiii]

Like the implication that consciousness is derived from matter?

Like, from brain function?

 

[Omegasquash]

Like the implication that consciousness is derived from matter?

Sorry for butting in, but it's all some of us have to go on, and it's likely because it's tangible, explainable, palpable (to a socially acceptable degree) and in front of us.

 

[Necromanti]

Thought is non-material and you could argue that is the most fundamental interaction we have with the material world. Everything you see around you wherever you are right now probably comes from thought.

But thought would not be possible without our sophisticated brains. And if our brains are made of matter, then it would seem reasonable to think that our thoughts are the results of physical interactions in the brain, chemical and electrical, to make it possible. We know that damaging certain parts of the brain can result in the altering of personalities. We (hopefully) know that the annihilation of the brain results in the cessation of brain activity, and ergo, termination of the mind. You mentioned emotions, but we already know of a range of chemical messengers that are responsible for such reactions, such as dopamine and endorphins.

If there is a supernatural explanation behind these interactions--and there's certainly more to them, as the further down in scale you go, the more complicated it seems to get--it doesn't seem relevant. If you open those floodgates, anything is possible. If there was a genie inside me, controlling my every action, I wouldn't know it, and it would do little to help me describe reality.

 

[Kinitari]

It makes it perfectly valid for the study of matter. That's it.

Science has to infer things because it only believes matter is "real", things it can not prove - like for example that consciousness is merely the sum of our biological parts and must too come from matter. And that every human emotion, act or impulse is merely biological driven, as opposed to a connection to a higher reality or purpose which we can not fathom through mere observation.

So science does have a dogma. It's not this unbelievably democratic and awesomely open-minded source for all things true. It clings to its own closely-held beliefs too just like many other belief systems.

How can the scientific method integrate non-empirical concepts into it's methodology?

Someone can come up with a very beautiful idea, but that doesn't mean it's right - like anything in life, it should be validated before we use it as a fact.

"Science" doesn't fully understand the mechanics of human consciousness (although we do learn more and more everyday) - it's not making any hard claims about the stuff it doesn't know. Is your suggestion that scientists just choose a metaphysical theory that sounds nice and use that one to explain things they don't get yet? Which scientist gets to choose? Do they stop the research on consciousness after he/she chooses one?

What's the solution, what's this "open mindedness" you wish for actually mean when applied?

 

[Strawman]

Thought is non-material.

Nope

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

I've seen a UFO. A perfectly spherical metallic object floating still and silent above my house before splitting in half and shooting off in opposite directions. I never jumped to any conclusions just because I couldn't identify it though. I certainly didn't attribute it to a deity, and I don't believe it was extraterrestrial.

 

[Oppo]

CaptainNapalm and some others in this thread are clearly not familiar with Magnetic Resonance Imaging.

here's a hint: yes you can in fact see and measure thoughts.

and, lol at "science dogma", that's a good one.

 

[Slavik81]

Thought is non-material and you could argue that is the most fundamental interaction we have with the material world. Everything you see around you wherever you are right now probably comes from thought.

Is your argument basically going to be that science's material world and your dualistic world are indistinguishable until death? Or are there noticeable differences between the two worlds before that point?

 

[Zaphod]

Not really other that our collective existence in this present moment that is neither the past or the future. I don't think that has a metaphysical explanation though I just don't have enough of an understanding of philosophy and science to explain it and if anyone knows any good ones I'd love to read it.

 

[Droog]

It didn't matter where I was trying to sleep; my house, a friend's house, family. And it didn't matter where, geographically, it was; inner city, remote country with no other houses around, a trailer court. Nothing environmentally affected thde phenomina as I experienced it. Also didn't matter if I was alone or not. I would even hear it at sleepovers, and my friends (and relatives) claimed that they heard it too.

I had a similar experience when I was quite young, to me it sounded like footsteps stomping up stairs. In my case however I realised it was my own heartbeat that I was hearing as the only common factor in all the places that I was hearing this sound was my being there. I realised this when I found that if I changed my sleeping position the noise could stop.

That your friends/family also claim they could hear the sounds in your story is an interesting difference though so perhaps it's not the same thing?

 

[Kinitari]

CaptainNapalm and some others in this thread are clearly not familiar with Magnetic Resonance Imaging.

here's a hint: yes you can in fact see and measure thoughts.

and, lol at "science dogma", that's a good one.

I just read about an experiment where scientists were able to read thoughts using hacked consumer grade bcis (like the emotiv)

 

[Liquid Helium]

Sorry, incredibly dull monotone voice guy, I switched off after about 40 seconds. Science is open-minded, he says. Well, it's not open to anything that doesn't conform to it's incredibly narrow view of what reality is, namely everything we can touch, taste, hear or see. That's not being open-minded.

Maybe if you didn't switch it off you would have learned something, you keep posting this same 13 year old level drivel before on neogaf and getting criticised for it. Maybe if you took some time to actually be open minded and consider the fact that you might be wrong and that logic and science and philophopy has actually dealt with the things you are saying already you might be better off for it.

Science only 'dogma' is that things in it can be tested and demonstrable. Either the supernatural non-material things you are talking about have an effect on the real word or they don't. If they do have an effect on the real world then science can test for them and they can be proven. If they don't have an effect on the real world then why are we even talking about them? How can anybody even know they exist?

 

[twobear]

I like how rationalists always come out and say how untrustworthy our senses and cognitive faculties are whenever people bring up weird experiences, yet they use these these same tools to formulate their joyless, meaningless view of the world which they try and foist upon others with an air of implied superiority.

There's nothing joyless about the universe of modern physics. It's furnished us with a view of our universe that thousands of years of mystical 'insight' has scarcely imagined.

 

[captainnapalm]

Maybe if you didn't switch it off you would have learned something, you keep posting this same 13 year old level drivel before on neogaf and getting criticised for it. Maybe if you took some time to actually be open minded and consider the fact that you might be wrong and that logic and science and philophopy has actually dealt with the things you are saying already you might be better off for it.

Science only 'dogma' is that things in it can be tested and demonstrable. Either the supernatural non-material things you are talking about have an effect on the real word or they don't. If they do have an effect on the real world then science can test for them and they can be proven. If they don't have an effect on the real world then why are we even talking about them? How can anybody even know they exist?

Yet science can only test that which it can objectively observe, and it can't do that to consciousness, so it can't be of any use at this, the most fundamental level at which we interact with reality.

Here are some things science doesn't know, yet still feels confident telling other people they are wrong about:

Science has no idea how consciousness came into existence.

Science has no idea how life came into existence.

Science has no idea how the universe came into existence.

Your scientific certainty house was built on sand, I'm afraid.