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[aeolist]

as much as i am in favor of gun reform (frankly i'd be all for repealing the second amendment entirely) i do wonder how much this is going to matter in the medium term, as in 5-10 years, with the increased prevalence of 3d printers

defense distributed (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Defense_Distributed) is only the first major name in this field, once the designs and technology improve enough we'll have a real issue on our hands

 

[HyperionX]

The Supreme Court recently ruled against the ability of the government to do so, for one. Plus the overwhelming public opposition to such a ban as well as the pure logistics of confiscating 250+ million guns.

It could be done, theoretically, but in reality it is a pipe dream right now.

The logistics are trivial actually. We know where every active cell phone in the world is precisely, even though there are there a billions of them.

The problem is purely political, and yes that includes highly political decisions made by the Supreme Court. Obviously, at some point you have to believe that standing legal rulings won't last.

 

[Pepiope]

You seem to understand guns, but completely fail to understand the statistics of gun violence. There's no question that fewer guns would greatly reduce injuries and deaths in this country, and you're deluding yourself if you argue otherwise.

The comedian really did cover the issue quite well. You're the "responsible gun owner" in the skit, I guess. And also the guy who wears his holster while otherwise naked.

I fail to understand that gun violence has been on the decline for the past 20ish years?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

For good reason: You're an unbelievable human being. Rarely I've found someone as willfully ignorant as you are.

Is this where you derail the thread with your bitching about me specifically? Aww shucks.

I know, the conversation is so much more productive when everyone agrees with your views. I know.

youre just selfish then.

"Anyone that disagrees with "X" is selfish.

 

[Version 3.0]

Uh, this whole sentiment is bullshit. They polled gun owners and 50% of them were in favor of additional background checks on firearms.

The NRA is not indicative of all gun owners.

As usual in this country, common sense seems to prevail, for the most part, until the discussion enters the realm of politics. Then it's full stop insane. Obviously not many of those gun owners in favor of more effective laws voted for political representation with the same views (if they even had someone on the ballot fitting that description).

 

[HyperionX]

I fail to understand that gun violence has been on the decline for the past 20ish years?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

It's been stuck at 12k per year for the last couple of years. Suicides haven't dropped much either from what I gather. Mass shootings are way up. I don't think anyone would agree that this is good enough.

 

[Version 3.0]

I fail to understand that gun violence has been on the decline for the past 20ish years?

You're pretty good at deflecting. "On the decline" is not incompatible with "too high". Cancer deaths are down, too. Clearly, cancer is not a problem we should address. It's declining, let's just kick back and wait for it to be gone altogether.

 

[Gnome Scat]

I just realized this is the guy who plays the dog on Wilfred. He's a great stand up.

I knew I should have googled him before posting... Would've have me fooled for the guy, though.

 

[Rimon-hanit]

Thanks for sharing, this guy was on point from beginning to end.

 

[HyperionX]

Is this where you derail the thread with your bitching about me specifically? Aww shucks.

I know, the conversation is so much more productive when everyone agrees with your views. I know.

Get off your high horse. I'm sick and tired of you playing victim here, like you do in so many threads. Seriously, of all the people in this discussion, you are easily the most disingenuous, most quick to be offended person here. You don't add anything to the discussion at all.

 

[Cabbagehead]

Australians sure love to talk about America a lot...

Funny never the less.

 

[Pepiope]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

It's been stuck at 12k per year for the last couple of years. Suicides haven't dropped much either from what I gather. Mass shootings are way up. I don't think anyone would agree that this is good enough.

You go get your stats from slate.com, and I'll get mines from the Bereau of Justice Statistics.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/press/fv9311pr.cfm

 

[DrGonzo615]

As usual in this country, common sense seems to prevail, for the most part, until the discussion enters the realm of politics. Then it's full stop insane. Obviously not many of those gun owners in favor of more effective laws voted for political representation with the same views (if they even had someone on the ballot fitting that description).

The problem is that the NRA scares the shit out of their base saying that the government is going to take their guns away completely while the NRA goes out and fights for anything even resembling gun legislation.

Gun owners, like the general population, are pretty ignorant of what is actually being proposed. They just hear the hyped up spin version of shit spewed from pundits and lobbyists.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Get off your high horse. I'm sick and tired of you playing victim here, like you do in so many threads. Seriously, of all the people in this discussion, you are easily the most disingenuous, most quick to be offended person here. You don't add anything to the discussion at all.

I own guns. The whole point is to not be a victim.

Hey, you're the one getting personal. Not me. Calm down.

I am also glad you are the arbiter of what's relevant to the discussion.

 

[HyperionX]

You go get your stats from slate.com, and I'll get mines from the Bereau of Justice Statistics.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/press/fv9311pr.cfm

Note your data only goes to 2011. So there's no contradiction between the sources.

 

[Pepiope]

You're pretty good at deflecting. "On the decline" is not incompatible with "too high". Cancer deaths are down, too. Clearly, cancer is not a problem we should address. It's declining, let's just kick back and wait for it to be gone altogether.

Here comes the straw man. When did I say a problem doesn't exist?

 

[Applesauce]

That part where he points out how silly the text of the 2nd amendment is when applied to modern times in the US is spot on.

 

[Pepiope]

Note your data only goes to 2011. So there's no contradiction between the sources.

It's an actual source, so it takes some time. It's not a magazine that is browsing the web for shooting statistics.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

I loved this so much.

So, so much.

Literally everything he said was 100% spot on.

And it was funny as hell too.

 

[Idba]

It's an actual source, so it takes some time. It's not a magazine that is browsing the web for shooting statistics.

Gun murderes
2010: 11,078
2013: 11,208
2014: 12,565

www.factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/
www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

 

[Bleepey]

as much as i am in favor of gun reform (frankly i'd be all for repealing the second amendment entirely) i do wonder how much this is going to matter in the medium term, as in 5-10 years, with the increased prevalence of 3d printers

defense distributed (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Defense_Distributed) is only the first major name in this field, once the designs and technology improve enough we'll have a real issue on our hands

I am not sure if it is worth the NRA changing their tune about gun control when it's only as a result of guns being able to be potentially as easily printed as my old science homework I copied and pasted of Encarta as a teen.

 

[Version 3.0]

Here comes the straw man. When did I say a problem doesn't exist?

You're a slippery one. So you don't disagree with me? You agree it's a big problem and needs to be addressed? Glad to hear it. Your posts don't really seem to say that, though.

 

[Hoo-doo]

For good reason: You're an unbelievable human being. Rarely I've found someone as willfully ignorant as you are.

You haven't met Manos: The Hands of Fate, I see.
That poster displayed a downright legendary level of ignorance in gun threads. Shame he's banned.

 

[Apt101]

His brief American accent got me. And the bit about "in what world are you constantly fucking ready?".

 

[HyperionX]

You haven't met Manos: The Hands of Fate, I see.
That poster displayed a downright legendary level of ignorance in gun threads. Shame he's banned.

Actually I did. Hence the word "Rarely". ;-)

 

[Piggus]

You're clearly a person with willful denial on the subject, so you're not one to talk. Furthermore, I've done so much research on the subject, I would argue I am far more understanding of the problem of guns than most in this thread.

So basically you're like the people who research the effects of violent video games, but you don't actually play any of them. You're only interested in stats and numbers. That's fine, but most of the people you're trying to sway aren't going to take you seriously if that's all you care about. It's one thing to have a good understanding of the problems surrounding guns. It's another to have that same understanding while also putting yourself in the shoes of gun owners for once and trying to understand the other side of the debate. Owning guns is a hobby for most people. It's fun. It's outdoorsy. The history can be interesting. They're good monetary investments. They have sentimental value for many. Once you realize that and experience that, the solutions you think are obvious now may or may not be as obvious, and you may have some more realistic suggestions for regulations that benefit all. Either way, you'll gain a lot of respect for at least trying to better understand the hobby rather than just the problems surrounding it.

If we're going to base what's deemed safe and what's not on stats and numbers, you better get ready to ban alcohol, motorcycles, swimming pools, and a whole host of other things that are not necessary yet result in many deaths per year. In the case of motorcycles and alcohol, a lot more than guns. But society has determined that the benefit of owning such stuff (mostly for fun/hobby purposes) outweighs the risk. Does that mean there aren't problems? No. Does that mean we don't need better laws to reduce the deaths involved with guns? No. But for the vast majority of people living here, it also doesn't mean that an outright ban is the solution. We tried that with alcohol already, and boy did that turn out well!

A lot of anti-gun people seem to think that gun owners feel there isn't a problem and nothing should change. That's not really true. We just don't agree that we should have thousands of dollars in property seized by the government due to the actions of a very tiny minority. Can you really blame us?

 

[Pepiope]

You're a slippery one. So you don't disagree with me? You agree it's a big problem and needs to be addressed? Glad to hear it. Your posts don't really seem to say that, though.

Absolutely, mass murders need to be toned down, guns winding up in the hands of the wrong people need to be addressed, and it needs to be a much more involved process than it is right now in order to obtain a gun.

I know it's a problem, we all do, but if the solution were an easy fix, it would have been implemented by now.

 

[Idba]

Absolutely, mass murders need to be toned down, guns winding up in the hands of the wrong people need to be addressed, and it needs to be a much more involved process than it is right now in order to obtain a gun.

I know it's a problem, we all do, but if the solution were an easy fix, it would have been implemented by now.

It is an easy fix, its just that you love guns too fucking much. The NRA holds way more power than it should, which ends up scaring politicians from doing anything.

 

[Pepiope]

It is an easy fix, its just that you love guns too fucking much. The NRA holds way more power than it should, which ends up scaring politicians from doing anything.

What's the answer?

 

[THRILLH0]

I can't believe people are unironically invoking cars and swimming pools in their arguments.

The difference is that a swimming pool isn't designed for the sole purpose of killing things.

What's the answer?

Politicians growing a spine and gun nuts not being fuckwits when it comes to children being slaughtered in school?

 

[Piggus]

It is an easy fix, its just that you love guns too fucking much. The NRA holds way more power than it should, which ends up scaring politicians from doing anything.

Let's have ourselves a hypothetical situation, shall we? Let's say violent video games are found to be the leading cause of most mass shootings. If someone told you "the solution is easy, but you just love violent video games too fucking much," what would you say to them? Is the minuscule chance of you being involved in a mass shooting due to you or someone else being influenced by violent media going to make you stop playing violent games?

I can't believe people are unironically invoking cars and swimming pools in their arguments.

The difference is that a swimming pool isn't designed for the sole purpose of killing things.

Well that's just lovely, but that doesn't mean they have to be used that way. And like archery or sword fighting/collecting as a hobby, they're not. By your logic we should get rid of stuff based on its original usage rather than how it's actually used today.

Politicians growing a spine and gun nuts not being fuckwits when it comes to children being slaughtered in school?

Now THIS is irony. Calling people fuckwits while completely failing to understand something yourself. I guess in your world someone who shoots clay targets with a shotgun is a "fuckwit" but someone who shoots at a bail of straw with a bow is not. Really wonderful logic you're bringing to this.

 

[Idba]

Let's have ourselves a hypothetical situation, shall we? Let's say violent video games are found to be the leading cause of most mass shootings. If someone told you "the solution is easy, but you just love violent video games too fucking much," what would you say to them? Is the minuscule chance of you being involved in a mass shooting due to you or someone else being influenced by violent media going to make you stop playing violent games?



Well that's just lovely, but that doesn't mean they have to be used that way. And like archery or sword fighting/collecting as a hobby, they're not. By your logic we should get rid of stuff based on its original usage rather than how it's actually used today.

Im not talking about motivation (which is what your hypothetical point is about), im talking about simple gun control. Every other 1st world country has a system thats miles ahead of USA. How can the country that landed the first men on the moon be lagging behind in gun control (and health care for that sake)

How many people die because of archery and swordfighting?

What's the answer?

Better gun control. Up the age limit and have thourough mental and background checks including other means if necesarry. In short you can copy Australia or any other 1st world country

Too bad the NRA doesnt want this though

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

All these hypotheticals and analogies are part of why this issue is so frustrating to discuss. You have to work through layers of bullshit to get to the real discussion every time. Can't you guys make a case for your argument without trying to compare it to something else?

 

[The Omega Man]

Let's have ourselves a hypothetical situation, shall we? Let's say violent video games are found to be the leading cause of most mass shootings. If someone told you "the solution is easy, but you just love violent video games too fucking much," what would you say to them? Is the minuscule chance of you being involved in a mass shooting due to you or someone else being influenced by violent media going to make you stop playing violent games?

Are this mass shooting carried out with cartridges and consoles smashed on heads or still will guns? That hypothetical scenario doesn't fly unless the consoles we are using are doing the killing.

 

[Dragonborne]

I really like the guy but I am not agree with him. We cannot ban guns because of some retards doing stupid shits.Whats next? ban tequila? lol because maybe someone is drunk and ran over people
This is America not saudi arabia

 

[WrenchNinja]

Gun gaf is most definitely that 10%

 

[Theecliff]

I really like the guy but I am not agree with him. We cannot ban guns because of some retards doing stupid shits.Whats next? ban tequila? lol because maybe someone is drunk and ran over people
This is America not saudi arabia

what the fuck sort of false equivalence is this

i mean yeah slaughtering school children with weapons is just some 'stupid shit' yeah totally

owning weapons designed to fucking murder people is absolutely the same as drinking alcohol, yep yep yep



jesus fucking christ do gun nuts have any self-awareness? i bet someone's probably said why don't we ban cars in here too, haven't they

 

[Idba]

How simple gun control can be and how effective it will be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVuspKSjfgA

 

[dabig2]

I really like the guy but I am not agree with him. We cannot ban guns because of some retards doing stupid shits.Whats next? ban tequila? lol because maybe someone is drunk and ran over people
This is America not saudi arabia

Ironically Saudia Arabia is in the top 10 countries of gun ownership per citizen.

 

[Piggus]

Im not talking about motivation (which is what your hypothetical point is about), im talking about simple gun control. Every other 1st world country has a system thats miles ahead of USA. How can the country that landed the first men on the moon be lagging behind in gun control (and health care for that sake)

How many people die because of archery and swordfighting?

Who cares how many die of archery and swordfighting? You said "but guns were created with the purpose of killing" as your reason to ban them. If you're going to turn it back into a numbers game, see pool/motorcycle/alcohol/etc.

Also, us being "behind" because our government hasn't shit on law-abiding gun owners is your opinion, not the opinion of most americans who feel that's not a reasonable solution. But thanks for ignoring my point regardless.

Also it's not just the NRA that doesn't want some stupid Australia-style ban. The majority of the country doesn't want it. The NRA is stupid as hell but give credit where credit is due at least.

Are this mass shooting carried out with cartridges and consoles smashed on heads or still will guns? That hypothetical scenario doesn't fly unless the consoles we are using are doing the killing.

lol, as expected instead of someone actually saying what they would do in that hypothetical situation, they try to avoid it altogether. *golf clap*

what the fuck sort of false equivalence is this

i mean yeah slaughtering school children with weapons is just some 'stupid shit' yeah totally

owning weapons designed to fucking murder people is absolutely the same as drinking alcohol, yep yep yep



jesus fucking christ do gun nuts have any self-awareness? i bet someone's probably said why don't we ban cars in here too, haven't they

Good to know that in your eyes running someone over after a night of binge drinking is acceptable risk but shooting someone isn't. They both result in death, the only difference is you probably participate in one activity and not the other, so therefore one is bad and one is not.

 

[Dragonborne]

what the fuck sort of false equivalence is this

i mean yeah slaughtering school children with weapons is just some 'stupid shit' yeah totally

owning weapons designed to fucking murder people is absolutely the same as drinking alcohol, yep yep yep



jesus fucking christ do gun nuts have any self-awareness? i bet someone's probably said why don't we ban cars in here too, haven't they

The thing I am trying to say is
We cannot punish someone because of someone else stupidity
Government must control the situation not ban the guns

 

[danm999]

No, i said its hypocritical to attempt to logically apply the same arguments used for gun-control and dismiss them for other problems. The intent was not to dismiss any argument against any one issue because others exist, but to point out the "But i like .... so it's different" logical fallacy that seems to exist.

By making up figures to inflate problems beyond their actual impact you are not achieving that. You are not revealing an irony at all, you are simply highlighting how particularly devastating gun violence is that you need to lie in order to make another issue comparably devastating. That or you need to form a super group of violent crimes to match its numbers (and I'm guessing of all those domestic violence, rapes and murders guns are also a factor in a significant number of them anyway).

You are also supposing we do not and should not look for ways to make cars safer, to reduce domestic violence, to fight rape. We should be doing all these things. We're not even talking ban here, but regulation in almost any way, shape or form, something that is almost immediately thrown away as impossible with guns, and suddenly we have to talk about other issues even though we do try and regulate other issues.

It is a classic distraction tactic and it's a very transparent one.

 

[HyperionX]

So basically you're like the people who research the effects of violent video games, but you don't actually play any of them. You're only interested in stats and numbers. That's fine, but most of the people you're trying to sway aren't going to take you seriously if that's all you care about. It's one thing to have a good understanding of the problems surrounding guns. It's another to have that same understanding while also putting yourself in the shoes of gun owners for once and trying to understand the other side of the debate. Owning guns is a hobby for most people. It's fun. It's outdoorsy. The history can be interesting. They're good monetary investments. They have sentimental value for many. Once you realize that and experience that, the solutions you think are obvious now may or may not be as obvious, and you may have some more realistic suggestions for regulations that benefit all. Either way, you'll gain a lot of respect for at least trying to better understand the hobby rather than just the problems surrounding it.

If we're going to base what's deemed safe and what's not on stats and numbers, you better get ready to ban alcohol, motorcycles, swimming pools, and a whole host of other things that are not necessary yet result in many deaths per year. In the case of motorcycles and alcohol, a lot more than guns. But society has determined that the benefit of owning such stuff (mostly for fun/hobby purposes) outweighs the risk. Does that mean there aren't problems? No. Does that mean we don't need better laws to reduce the deaths involved with guns? No. But for the vast majority of people living here, it also doesn't mean that an outright ban is the solution. We tried that with alcohol already, and boy did that turn out well!

A lot of anti-gun people seem to think that gun owners feel there isn't a problem and nothing should change. That's not really true. We just don't agree that we should have thousands of dollars in property seized by the government due to the actions of a very tiny minority. Can you really blame us?

As others are trying to explain it to you, these are red herring arguments. Sure, they are problems in of themselves, but it's irrelevant to the discussion because we're trying to solve this problem in particular.

 

[Theecliff]

The thing I am trying to say is
We cannot punish someone because of someone else stupidity
Government must control the situation not ban the guns

yeah, and part of the way the government can control this stupidity is to not allow stupid people to own fucking weapons designed to murder people

 

[King_Moc]

Absolutely, mass murders need to be toned down, guns winding up in the hands of the wrong people need to be addressed, and it needs to be a much more involved process than it is right now in order to obtain a gun.

I know it's a problem, we all do, but if the solution were an easy fix, it would have been implemented by now.

Wtf, lol. Toned down?

You mean completely fucking stopped entirely, right?

 

[speculawyer]

You haven't met Manos: The Hands of Fate, I see.
That poster displayed a downright legendary level of ignorance in gun threads. Shame he's banned.

I don't know if it was so much ignorance as willful ignorance. Yeah, he got banned for posting a bunch unsupported assertions.

 

[dabig2]

I honestly will never understand why guns have engendered this quasi-religious fanaticism. The CDC was literally forbidden from conducting scientific research about gun violence for almost 2 decades! Tell me that fucking makes sense.

 

[Piggus]

As others are trying to explain it to you, these are red herring arguments. Sure, they are problems in of themselves, but it's irrelevant to the discussion because we're trying to solve this problem in particular.

Really? Because all I'm mostly seeing is people being called gun nuts, fuck wits, etc for trying to bring a different perspective into the conversation.

We're all trying to help solve this problem. Sometimes you have to understand something though before you can attempt to solve, and a lot of people here (you included) know jack about actually owning guns or why people would want to own one.

 

[THRILLH0]

Well that's just lovely, but that doesn't mean they have to be used that way. And like archery or sword fighting/collecting as a hobby, they're not. By your logic we should get rid of stuff based on its original usage rather than how it's actually used today.



Now THIS is irony. Calling people fuckwits while completely failing to understand something yourself. I guess in your world someone who shoots clay targets with a shotgun is a "fuckwit" but someone who shoots at a bail of straw with a bow is not. Really wonderful logic you're bringing to this.

Collecting? Remove the firing pin and disable the gun.

Hobby? Try laser target shooting.

The fuckwits aren't everyone who shoots a gun for sport. They're the people who stare an event like Sandy Hook in the face and say it woulda been cool if the teachers had guns.

They're the people who organised and attended rallies to beat their chests about the right to own guns and were pre-emptively lobbying the government before the bodies had even been put into the ground. They're the fuckwits.

 

[Piggus]

Collecting? Remove the firing pin and disable the gun.

Hobby? Try laser target shooting.

The fuckwits aren't everyone who shoots a gun for sport. They're the people who stare an event like Sandy Hook in the face and say it woulda been cool if the teachers had guns.

Ah good, suggestions from someone who has clearly never fired a gun or knows anything about collecting or target shooting. Thanks, I'll get right on that.

I agree with you about those people, but there are a lot of fuckwits on both sides of the debate. Suggesting a blanket ban is just as misinformed and out of touch with reality people saying all teachers should have guns. In fact that's A LOT more likely to happen than a blanket ban. So maybe I would take you seriously if you would suggest something that's actually possible instead of just getting angry at our lack of "progress."

Even if I'm not a "fuckwit" in your eyes, you're still proposing that I be subjected to the same ban as everybody else, even though I (and the vast majority of other gun owners) haven't actually done anything wrong.