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[Metrotab]

Still less than 5k dislikes on a video seen 1.5mil times. So obviously the scandal here isn't that scandalous, if we're going by the fair and rational metric we've been asked to use for the Ghostbusters trailers themselves.

Looks like even if people make sideways insinuations that a low-level, even subconscious sexism might be at play, those insinuations aren't carrying all that much weight. Certainly no scarlet letter or anything similar.

In fact, it seems like the whole thing backfired anyway. It's the media that gets made fun of, deservedly so in my opinion.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

In fact, it seems like the whole thing backfired anyway.

James' video? Yeah, it backfired.

It'll backfire even worse when he actually goes and watches the fucking thing and then does a review of it.

 

[Eidan]

Nobody's saying bad movies shouldn't eat shit. But there's a difference between criticizing a film because it fails at what it's trying to do, and criticizing a film because it's not what you would have done had you been placed in the driver's seat, or because you don't think it paid enough tribute to you and your fandom.

Ring.A.Ding.

 

[border]

I addressed this in the post you're responding to. Dunno what else to tell you. Simply being a big Godzilla fan doesn't automatically make the scenarios one to one. The context is completely different, which you inherently acknowledge by way of your interpretation of his video as being some sort of catalyst in a fan civil war or whatever.

I don't really think it's a one-to-one scenario, but how could it be? His interpretation of "true Godzilla" is equally as selfish and dogmatic as his definition of a "true Ghostbusters" film....but it doesn't have the gender/identity politics slant that is of great importance to progressive bloggers and backwoods nerd misogynists. Is it your contention that he should have (and did) know that he was walking into a social justice minefield, and therefore he should accept or expect whatever backlash and negative attention comes from it?

If so then in some ways that is fair - people will be held accountable for their opinions, usually in direct proportion to the audience they have and the volatility of the topic they address. A reasonable person probably would have expected his Ghostbusters review to get the response it did. But in some ways that perspective also smacks of the usual "Well this person shouldn't have voiced their opinion on the internet if he wasn't ready to take the heat."

 

[Metrotab]

James' video? Yeah, it backfired.

It'll backfire even worse when he actually goes and watches the fucking thing and then does a review of it.

No, I was talking about the articles.

I see absolutely no way in how his video backfired. It wasn't him walking away with dirt on his face from this episode. Even anti-GG subreddits thought the whole thing was overblown clickbait drama.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

No, I was talking about the articles.

Oh.

No, those didn't backfire.

 

[Lothar]

Ring.A.Ding.

This is how he always reviews movies he doesn't like. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_ufBleUNos It's nothing specific about Ghostbusters.

His biggest complaint is that it doesn't look like the old Godzilla movies, it had none of Godzilla's characteristics, he doesn't breathe fire, they killed him with missiles. "Did they ever see a Godzilla movie?" This is how he reviews movies.

Anyone can go ahead and make a new thread about the way he criticizes all movies if they want. But this thread is about a shitty article calling him a sexist and that's laughable.

Oh.

No, those didn't backfire.

Well, they look like they were written by idiots. Was that the intention?

 

[border]

Unless he's losing views or subscribers, I don't see how a person can say the original video has backfired. It has 3-4X the number of views as his other Cinemassacre Reviews, and the followup Ghostbusters 3 History video has the 2nd highest number of views for anything else on the Reviews playlist/channel.

I mostly just hope he doesn't end up pandering to the sloths, troglodytes, and morons that flocked to this video. It sucks how a number of evenhanded YouTubers who initially expressed vaguely pro-GamerGate positions ended up making videos and tweets that were almost expressly designed to appeal to that GamerGate audience.

 

[PaulloDEC]

If fans always got their way, they would drive every single show, movie, book, and game into the ground. Every single one. Just look at any fan casting for a movie. It's always the same choices, and usually because they held a gun like that character in some movie they did before or they have the same hair color or style as the character. People are knob slobbing over Deadpool right now, especially for it being so true to the character. But be honest, most of the same fans that are applauding it now never would have given Ryan Reynolds another shot after Green Lantern and X-Men Origins. Chris Evans as Captain America? No way! He was in those terrible Fantastic Four movies.

The reaction to Ghostbusters is just a complete mess. I'm glad the article touched on that. Sequels don't ruin the original, people need to get over that. Reboots don't ruin the original. You will always have the originals. People don't like the original Star Wars less because of the prequels, at least not any fans I've ever met. And it got a whole new generation a chance to get interested in the franchise.

One Christmas all I asked for was Ghostbusters stuff. Proton pack, action figures, the whole nine yards. I loved the cartoon, movies, everything. And I was like 6, I probably didn't understand half the jokes in those movies. But I loved it. I have fond memories attached to the franchise...annnnnnnd this movie coming out doesn't change any of that. If it sucks, people will just forget about it. If its good, we got a great comedy movie this year. But I swear some people attach their emotional well-being to these properties and it's sad.

People keeping saying that the negative reactions aren't sexism but the marketing. Except that the reactions have been going on since the cast was announced. Like literally people have been freaking out since then.

Underrated post. First line is especially on point.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

You're acting like an opinion can't ever be at the center of a protestation.

You're acting like an opinion isn't usually at the center of a protestation.

You're acting like the right to have an opinion somehow absolves the person giving it of having to hear it scrutinized, picked apart, confronted and rebutted.

The point of sharing his opinion wasn't to just "share his opinion" as a helpful heads-up to his fans, at least not solely. He was stepping forward to be the face of disgruntled Ghostbusters fans. That's what he did. Nobody asked him to do that, he just did it.

That he's eating some shit for it shouldn't be surprising, nor is it "disgusting," nor is the fact people are writing articles about him and calling the purity of his opinion into question "gross," that's how this works. Nobody speaking to an audience that big is going to get the benefit of the doubt about their intentions, ever. It's how anyone making any sort of semi-political statement is recieved. That he chose to get political over fuckin' Ghostbusters is weird, maybe. Silly, even. But that's what he did. There's inherent unfairness there, yeah, but then again, people seem to think it's even more unfair that Ghostbusters is getting remade in a manner they don't approve of.

Still less than 5k dislikes on a video seen 1.5mil times. So obviously the scandal here isn't that scandalous, if we're going by the fair and rational metric we've been asked to use for the Ghostbusters trailers themselves.

Looks like even if people make sideways insinuations that a low-level, even subconscious sexism might be at play, those insinuations aren't carrying all that much weight. Certainly no scarlet letter or anything similar.

What the hell? It's an article on the internet that will be saved forever. An article that implies he is sexist for boycotting this movie and making a video. Who now becomes the posterboy for this anti-Ghostbusters movement.

 

[streetsahead123]

The problem that a lot of people (or at least just me) have with the AVGN video is not necessarily with what he's saying, but the fact that he deliberately made a big deal out of it. He made a six minute video when a tweet would have sufficed. By making it such a big deal, it seems pretty clear that he's playing directly into the raging anti-Ghostbusters-reboot circlejerk. He knew for sure when he posted that video that it was going straight to the front page of reddit.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

What the hell? It's an article on the internet that will be saved forever. An article that implies he is sexist for boycotting this movie and making a video. Who now becomes the posterboy for this anti-Ghostbusters movement.

Yeah, but less than 4k dislikes tho

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

The problem that a lot of people (or at least just me) have with the AVGN video is not necessarily with what he's saying, but the fact that he deliberately made a big deal out of it. He made a six minute video when a tweet would have sufficed. By making it such a big deal, it seems pretty clear that he's playing directly into the raging anti-Ghostbusters-reboot circlejerk. He knew for sure when he posted that video that it was going straight to the front page of reddit.

Just to be clear who's making the big deal? The fucking internet personality who made a video to be forgotten in say one month (if that) or the "news outlets" making all these articles focused on this video?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Just to be clear who's making the big deal?

You are.

Right now.

 

[Dark Ninja]

Posted this in the other Ghostbusters thread that got locked up but still relevant

I love that James made the most calm video explaining why he wont review it so people wouldn't bother him about it later and people just jump on him. The reason why he would even have to make a video to tell people not bother him about it is because its well documented that he's a huge fan of it and has many LONG videos analyzing the cartoon, toys and movies. The same would happen if a new TMNT, Thundercats, Godzilla or Transformers movie would come out its almost expected for him to address it because he always brings up those properties in his videos. He doesn't review every movie the same as he doesn't "review" every LJN game. He just does what he wants and doesn't even have a schedule for releasing videos other than the Monday play videos and Monster Madness every October.

This Ghostbusters video he did is just an excuse to film in his new video store basement he just finished remodeling, just like the Godzilla trailer video he did before. He didn't even bother making an impressions/review video for Civil War which I expected after he did one for BvS. The guy doesn't like what he sees in the trailer and articulated pretty clearly and calmly.

I don't like what I see in the trailers the movie looks bad to me and I wont be seeing it either.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

You are.

Right now.

But I didn't make my video yet explaining why this kerfuffle is dumb.

Spoiler

Not yet at least

Or are you saying that this isn't a big deal yet. Because this and the larger GHOSTBUSTERS (2016) controversy seem like big deals to me in the context of Feminism and Hollywood and Nerd Culture. (Whether Paul originally intended it or not) At least, I predict this will add fuel to the fire.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I love that James made the most calm video explaining why he wont review it so people wouldn't bother him and people just jump on him.

This shit was disingenous in that thread and it's disingenous here. Like it was just a gentle public service announcement. It wasn't so people wouldn't bother him. People weren't bothering him. It wasn't a bother. It's kinda silly to push that as an actual narrative. Nobody would have had any reason to even ask the question until after the movie came out and noticed he hadn't reviewed it. People can't even point to any real trend in any of the comments threads leading up to that video that it was even a question anyone was asking to any real degree (nor could they point to the idea that Rolfe makes a habit of creating videos solely to address questions like that)

It also isn't an "excuse" to show off his basement because he's already done multiple videos showing off his basement. The only excuses happening right now are the ones you're laying out to try and make it seem somehow extra-unfair that a guy with an audience of millions who inserted himself into a weird pop-culture political fracas with his statement of protest caught blowback for doing it.

Speaking of disproportionate unfairness, here's a thing I'm not seeing a lot of people upset about the comparatively muted reaction to Rolfe's video having said:

"I love that Paul Feig set out to make a sci-fi comedy movie and for two straight years hundreds of thousands of people just jump on him."

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Wait, Elsa is gay?

Edit: Unbelievable the shit storm that AVGN's comments started. I can't even begin to count the number of shitty remakes that people have turned up their noses at on this very board, based solely on trailers and casting. Fantastic Four anyone? Let It Go.

 

[Lothar]

The problem that a lot of people (or at least just me) have with the AVGN video is not necessarily with what he's saying, but the fact that he deliberately made a big deal out of it. He made a six minute video when a tweet would have sufficed. By making it such a big deal, it seems pretty clear that he's playing directly into the raging anti-Ghostbusters-reboot circlejerk. He knew for sure when he posted that video that it was going straight to the front page of reddit.

Yeah, the fact that people don't have a problem with he said but yet still think he shouldn't say it on video is the fucked up part. That's admitting he said nothing wrong. Yet you're still wanting to restrict him. That's not even defendable.

It would actually have been really odd of him if he had made a tweet instead of a video since we know he's made videos in the past just talking about possibilities for a potential GB movie. He makes videos on every little thing. It would have seemed like he was scared to give his opinion.

Is this video that he posted back in 2007 a big deal too?
http://cinemassacre.com/2007/08/03/ghostbusters-3-my-honest-thoughts/

 

[jdstorm]

I'm going to avoid talking specifically about Ghostbusters. All conversation about that film is a shitstorm that seems to have left rational thinking at the door.

On the Entitlement of fan culture? I think that's a much trickier conversation to have. Hollywood is remaking and reinvisioning a lot of classic IPs to purely profit from the nostalgia of their customers. (fans) However not only has Hollywood done that. Over the past decade Hollywood has been increasingly profiting of mobilized consumer bases. And has been equating the purchasing of their creative products with a form of emotional ownership and stewardship. ( Buy the Collectors edition of your favourite Book/game/film/Show. Watch the Web series, read the additional comics, go to the convention, dress up ect) To keep your favourite series alive. Just look at Jericho getting a second season or The longevity of the NBC television show Community.

As with any angry mob there is little rational to the collective voice of these groups, but the consistent theme that remains is the expectation of quality. These empowered consumers view themselves as the guardians and quality control officers of these IPs. And in many respects they are. Do you think the most recent Jurassic Park film would have received a sequel if it bombed financially? Content producers are subject to consumers wanting to buy their product for it to remain viable, and consumers have found a way to leverage that buying power through the Internet.

Rather then seeking to place blame on either side of the coin. There is plenty to go around for everyone. We should take hold of one simple truth

TLDR People rarely complain when what you are making is good. And creative people as the creators have the right to ignore their audience. Traditional media is going through a revolution right now in terms of how things are made and things will quiet down once people who understand what the audience is saying are allowed to make decisions

 

[streetsahead123]

Just to be clear who's making the big deal? The fucking internet personality who made a video to be forgotten in say one month (if that) or the "news outlets" making all these articles focused on this video?

He made it a big deal first by making it a video and treating it with such importance. Has he ever made a video specifically to announce he's not reviewing a movie before? No, and that video could easily be a tweet. Did the media overreact to the video? Absolutely, but so did the anti-Ghostbusters reboot circlejerk who jizzed all over this video. It's par for the course for everything relating to this movie, everything is becoming a much bigger deal than it needs to be.

 

[streetsahead123]

Yeah, the fact that people don't have a problem with he said but yet still think he shouldn't say it on video is the fucked up part. That's admitting he said nothing wrong. Yet you're still wanting to restrict him. That's not even defendable.

It would actually have been really odd of him if he had made a tweet instead of a video since we know he's made videos in the past just talking about possibilities for a potential GB movie. He makes videos on every little thing. It would have seemed like he was scared to give his opinion.

Is this video that he posted back in 2007 a big deal too?
http://cinemassacre.com/2007/08/03/ghostbusters-3-my-honest-thoughts/

Lol ok, you're being deliberately obtuse. First of all, I do disagree with what he says, but I didn't focus on that in my post because people have a right to their opinions and he doesn't seem to be approaching it from a directly sexist angle. What I'm saying is that it seems very self-aggrandizing to treat this like some big announcement the way he did. And he also definitely knew that his target demo would run wild with this.

 

[Lothar]

Lol ok, you're being deliberately obtuse. First of all, I do disagree with what he says, but I didn't focus on that in my post because people have a right to their opinions and he doesn't seem to be approaching it from a directly sexist angle. What I'm saying is that it seems very self-aggrandizing to treat this like some big announcement the way he did. And he also definitely knew that his target demo would run wild with this.

Is this video a big deal?
http://cinemassacre.com/2007/08/03/ghostbusters-3-my-honest-thoughts/

He makes videos about his opinions.

If he makes a video about wanting a Ghostbusters movie, how can he not make a video when he gets a Ghostbusters movie?

 

[GAMEPROFF]

He made it a big deal first by making it a video and treating it with such importance. Has he ever made a video specifically to announce he's not reviewing a movie before? No, and that video could easily be a tweet.

He does a whole series about Ghostbusters/Ghostbusters III... He already posted a second video where he talked about the whole history of the canceled sequel and a third one is still coming up... Its not just specifically about the Announcement. When you see all two videos, you notice that it was made it one sitting, maybe he should have released it without cutting it in multiple parts...

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I think the backlash is pretty understandable...

Ghostbusters was not in anyway that I can recall a sexist movie. So you announce a new one, but its all about girl power rawr, and isn't it great, we are ghostbusters, but wait, GIRL ghostbusters!

Then you release some promo shit and its pure trash.

So you have taken a classic movie, turned it into some kind of empowering feminist piece, then made it bad.

Female ghostbusters to me doesn't really seem to be righting some wrong, its like they did it just for marketing... because they couldn't come up with a good movie.

Wow.

What a post backfire.

It couldn't be that they are women because - shock - women exist.

 

[The_Kid]

Honestly the more I think about it, while the video was sort of dumb (in that the reasoning expressed throughout it was flawed, not the fact it was made), he sort of became the target of people's concern with sexism. The sort of video he made wasn't anything extremely outlandish, and I honestly don't know whether his intentions are rooted behind ingrained prejudice or just some sense of fan entitlement (I'm free to wonder the basis of his reasoning without having to either accuse him or not, despite what some people may think).

But, up until now people were mad at general internet trolls and assholes, without having a real target to direct irritations at. This is understandable, because some assume it's just a boogeyman, and that it doesn't actually exist. But AVGN is kind of someone specific in the absence of any real group like with GG for example. Whether or not he intended it to be a stand against the movie, it came off that way to people.

I'm honestly at the point where I want this movie to come out and get this over with, but at the same time you're going to have arguments about the credibility of certain reviews versus others, and one side going "See, I told you!" and another side going "Well they only gave it this review because of ___". This movie isn't going to have a good history up until the point it is forgotten, regardless of its quality.

 

[Monocle]

The nostalgic aspects of the Force Awakens was its only saving grace. And even with the plot already laid out from ANH it still doesn't hold together. It was just about good enough but the next one needs to be something new and good.

I've gotta strongly disagree with you there. TFA delivers on nostalgia, but it doesn't need a saving grace because it also...

- Avoids countless pitfalls, including being anything at all like the prequels, not feeling like Star Wars, and failing to set up an intriguing next chapter for the new trilogy

- Provides likeable new protagonists (including a fantastic new droid buddy!) with character arcs and room to grow

- Provides a threatening but flawed new villain with a character arc and room to grow

- Has a cohesive and generally coherent story

- Nails the art style of the classic films while subtly updating just about everything. The use of puppetry and models adds a great deal of believability and texture

- Nails the lightsaber battles. No more of the prequels' baton twirly nonsense. The sense of weight that lightsabers had in the original trilogy is back. The choreography makes sense, informs you about the characters, and tells a story

- Perfectly captures that classic Star Wars humor, and with it the originals' distinctive pacing, with character beats and entertaining moments dropping at a steady rhythm

- Brings back the playful quality to the score, where it highlights and punctuates little moments just like the originals

- Makes effective use of inherited characters, settings, vehicles, and even objects by incorporating them into a world that's both fresh and familar

- Successfully revives the essence of Star Wars, which is that elusive emergent quality produced by an apt style and tone

The very worst thing about TFA is Starkiller Base, because it's one OT similarity too many. Its actual role in the story is mostly fine.

Spoiler

It establishes the First Order as a genocidal threat to the galaxy, and nicely centralizes the bad guys. The trench run was a terrible idea though, and the base should have blown up in the next film.

The complaints that Rey is a Mary Sue are baseless and probably mostly sexist; she is

Spoiler

a female Luke Skywalker with a scrappier past, and her development as a proto-Jedi is set up very well for people who pay attention to nonverbal cues.

The typical critiques of Kylo Ren fail because they totally misrepresent the character. The whole point is that he's supposed to subvert the audience's expectation of another Vader 2.0, by trying and failing to be just that. His face reveal is meant to be anticlimactic. His connection to other characters actually goes somewhere, and sets him on a path that will probably

Spoiler

mirror Rey's

in the films to come.

Basically, TFA is great. Better than great in a lot of ways. Miles and miles above the prequels, and probably better than Return of the Jedi overall, even if it doesn't achieve the heights of Jabba's Palace and the Throne Room scenes.

Of course there is a certain amount of fan entitlement but there is also creator responsibility as well particularly when picking up a beloved IP. Some films don't capture the spirit of the original works like Johnny Depp does weirdo versions of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Alice in Wonderland. Then you get other creators who want to sell their new movie using an old IP like Jaden Smith's karate kid. It was a decent movie but it had no greater relation to the original than it did to any other underdog tale.

And this is where the new Ghostbusters has a certain responsibility to fans of the franchise. It isn't just taking the name to cash-in like Karate Kid and it isn't a new imagining of a work like those Depp movies. It has taken the name and taken the imagery of the originals so while standing on the shoulders of all the people who created the originals it needs to pay respect to the style and tone of the previous films while still hopefully giving the audience something new. And entitlement goes both ways in situations like this. You can accuse the fans of being entitled for expecting some amount of pandering (or continuity) but the creator isn't entitled to be isolated from criticism if they screw it up. And that criticism is liable to be fiercer in Ghostbusters situation since all the groundwork had been previously laid.

I'm with you there. Creators should be responsible stewards of classic franchises. JJ Abrams and his crew proved more than equal to the task with Star Wars. As for Ghostbusters, who knows? Personally, I'm kind of intrigued by an all-female team. The trailer that accumulated a record-breaking number of dislikes isn't even bad, much less the worst in history. It looks fairly cliched, but so are most movies aimed at a general audience.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Yeah, the originals would have never stooped to a cheap slapstick gag were a character gets covered in slime.

Getting slimed wasn't one of the funny parts of that scene though. And totally ignore the word 'most'..

 

[Bobby Roberts]

That's all your opinion and nothing more.

what

no

You left out the part in my post about him making the video to answer a question fans might have when they see that he isn't reviewing the new film.

Here.