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[Sushi Nao]

Oh, right, sorry. I think I quoted the wrong thing.

I'm still working off the assumption you're crazy though.

Mmm, great.

Let's look at it another way. Is there subversion in the game? Yes. Does the world itself - the main source of story conveyance - ever purposely mislead the player? No.

Does Oscar mislead the player? Yes. Is he the narrator? No.

Does Frampt mislead the player? Yes. Is he the narrator? No.

Does Gwyndolin mislead the player? Yes. Is Gwyndolin the narrator? No.

The underlying truth is that the world is what it is, and that the information gleaned from it is evidence of what happened there. It's open to interpretation in some cases, but it's all there for the player to see.

 

[A Link to the Past]

The Stanley Parable

But he is reliable -

Spoiler

if you follow his instructions, you get the happy ending.

 

[Haly]

But he is reliable -

Spoiler

if you follow his instructions, you get the happy ending.

He is only reliable in certain conditions. I think we can say that the narrator in Stanley Parable is reliable and unreliable depending on what you choose to do. Or we can say the narrator is completely unreliable because while he tells you the truth under certain situations, when taken as a whole the narrator is definitely keeping things from you regarding the truth of Stanley's world.

The definition of "narrator" is fuzzy for games because the line between character and audience is blurred.

 

[A Link to the Past]

He is only reliable in certain conditions. I think we can say that the narrator in Stanley Parable is reliable and unreliable depending on what you choose to do. Or we can say the narrator is completely unreliable because while he tells you the truth under certain situations, when taken as a whole the narrator is definitely keeping things from you regarding the truth of Stanley's world.

The definition of "narrator" is fuzzy for games because the line between character and audience is blurred.

Couldn't it just be argued that he is only ever unreliable when you don't rely on him? Thus at these points, you're not actually trying to rely on him, thus he can't be unreliable to you in that context. Further, it's also

Spoiler

the narrator's story, thus he would dictate what is necessary information for said story.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

...some of you really need to read up on what an unreliable narrator is.
1. Yes, unreliable narrator.
2. Only in certain parts. But for the most part, no.
3. Hrm. It does some interesting tricks with narrative and the specific and careful choice of words and text but I'd probably say it's not an unreliable narrator. Unless you go by the assumption that the text in the game that narrates is

Spoiler

Chara

then YES extremely unreliable narrator
4. Nah, I wouldn't say this is an example of unreliable narrator.
5. Nope.

For Witcher I was talking about Dandelion's intros but that probably isn't really a good example.

For Undertale

Spoiler

yes I do think Chara was narrating the text, as in Pacifist/Neutral its phrased as "Your" bed, if you look into the mirror it says "It's you." but if you get to New Home in Genocide, right around when the red text starts to appear, suddenly it changes to "It's me." and "My bed."

 

[OniBarubary]

For Witcher I was talking about Dandelion's intros but that probably isn't really a good example.

For Undertale

Spoiler

yes I do think Chara was narrating the text, as in Pacifist/Neutral its phrased as "Your" bed, if you look into the mirror it says "It's you." but if you get to New Home in Genocide, right around when the red text starts to appear, suddenly it changes to "It's me." and "My bed."

Oh yeah, I completely forgot that Dandelion is actually the one relating the story to us. That totally works.

And yep, if that's your interpretation of Undertale that is an

Spoiler

incredibly well done and sneaky unreliable narrator.

 

[RoboPlato]

Unreliable narrators are excellent in games because the context and presentation of the situation can change in real time. Call of Juarez: Gunslinger did it best. There were times when the narrator would just start making up crazy shit to look cool or see if the people he was telling the story to were paying attention, then it would change enemies and such once he got called out.

 

[reggie186]

I think Silent Hill: Shattered Memories would apply here.

Spoiler

the narrator is revealed to be a girl in denial about her father's death, if I remember correctly.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Heavy Rain did it well I thought.

 

[OniBarubary]

I think Silent Hill: Shattered Memories would apply here.

Spoiler

the narrator is revealed to be a girl in denial about her father's death, if I remember correctly.

Yes, holy shit that is a good example.

 

[flatearthpandas]

Looks like "narrator" might be next for the list of words gamers use in no relation to their actual meaning. I love this trend!

Came in pretty skeptical, article caught my interest a bit, and then Jesus H Christ the thread started happening. Might need to sub.

Here I am an hour later than I started, having deleted paragraphs of potential ways to approach the topic of narration in videogames because it is a very interesting subject in many ways. Too complicated to really do justice to in the middle of the night on a tablet. But I think it is safe to treat most games as if there is no narrator at all unless one is explicitly claimed. And when there is a narrator, there will always be some kind of disconnect because the medium itself, even discounting the huge impact of player agency which even the most scripted game can't get around narratively, offers more detail than any narrator could hope to deliver. You're seeing a window into a story being narrated whose overall shape is constructed but whose details are narratively only implied. This is getting a little beside the point, but the relationship to a narrator in a game is inherently complicated. There is always a question in the mind of the audience about which aspects are part of the story--not the plot, but the implied narrative.

 

[Odrion]

Games are pretty long so writers put in a twist or a betrayal to keep the wheels turning.

But it's hacky as shit these days.

 

[JStein0222]

It makes sense to me. You're very often only getting the perspective of the player character, so it makes sense that they would misinterpret or miss certain things going on

Nailed it.

 

[Corpekata]

Heavy Rain did it well I thought.

I'd say Heavy Rain is a textbook example of how to not do it. They handled it awfully.

Spoiler

There needs to be a conceit for the character to be telling lies to the audience, and there is none in HR. It just randomly cuts away at important times and even gives thoughts to the character that don't match his real personality.

 

[iz.podpolja]

Mmm, great.

Let's look at it another way. Is there subversion in the game? Yes. Does the world itself - the main source of story conveyance - ever purposely mislead the player? No.

Does Oscar mislead the player? Yes. Is he the narrator? No.

Does Frampt mislead the player? Yes. Is he the narrator? No.

Does Gwyndolin mislead the player? Yes. Is Gwyndolin the narrator? No.

The underlying truth is that the world is what it is, and that the information gleaned from it is evidence of what happened there. It's open to interpretation in some cases, but it's all there for the player to see.

There is no narrator in enviromental storytelling, so it cannot be nor reliable nor unreliable. In Soulsborne games narration is done by the interpreter instance - the player, as the story itself is a head-canon. So there can be a situation when the player decides that he was misinterpreting the story, as he sees it - but it will not be a done by any in-game instance, and therefore is a meta-text situation.

 

[TheSlySoul]

I like something like Etna where she makes crap up and characters react to it.

 

[Yabberwocky]

I wish more games unreliable narrators, it's such an interesting concept.

Varric was THE poster boy for this in DA2, great character and he really added alot of flavor to the narrative. Not to mention he wrote those tales of the Champion after the events in Kirkwall, which makes him an unreliable narrator both in-universe and to the audience

Ha, Varric was my first thought! Plus every time I have a wave of enemies drop in right behind me I can't help but think, you goddamn sadist, Varric.

 

[Sushi Nao]

There is no narrator in enviromental storytelling, so it cannot be nor reliable nor unreliable. In Soulsborne games narration is done by the interpreter instance - the player, as the story itself is a head-canon. So there can be a situation when the player decides that he was misinterpreting the story, as he sees it - but it will not be a done by any in-game instance, and therefore is a meta-text situation.

Great point. Is this unique to video games?

 

[Cripplegate]

So weird seeing this thread after just playing The Beginner's Guide.

I've been thinking about this all afternoon, because I couldn't think of many other games that ever tried using this device. I see some potential examples here so I'll add them to my list. I've only recently started playing through the Silent Hill franchise for the first time, so nice to know I've got something to look forward to with Shattered Memories.

Lots of examples here that don't fit, though. System Shock 2? No. But I see OniBarubary is taking care of that already haha.

But I guess the AV Club article isn't very helpful, to be fair, because they're talking about different things at different points in the article, and in at least one case someone quoted there doesn't even seem to understand what a narrator is at all. Weird article.

 

[MadSexual]

Great point. Is this unique to video games?

I think film narrative accomplishes this rather frequently.

To say a bit more, a narrator comes into play when someone is presenting the facts to you. They become unreliable when their interpretation of events is easily subverted by the objective points of the plot. A camera in a film is not likely to be unreliable without some seriously undermining framing in the narrative.

Anyone looking to experience truly awesome unreliable narrators should look into Nabokov's books Pale Fire and Lolita.

 

[Ashtar]

Kings quest reboot had an unreliable narrator I think.
Far cry 3 tried this maybe, at least that's what the writer claims as to why it's the typical White savior story.

 

[pannagape]

Vanille from Final Fantasy XIII seems to be an obvious example.

 

[iz.podpolja]

Great point. Is this unique to video games?

No, it is quite common with non-written media in general (imagine putting together a story told in a cycle of paintings for instance, or listening to a playlist). But it can be also used in a bookish form - most types of poetry don't include narrator instances, same is true for drama, but in order to have the same "piece together" mechanics they require a non-fabular structure - be it within a single text or, what is more common, a series of texts (a tome of poetry, anthology).

It is also very common in everyday's life - we think about our reality "in stories" (whether they are really there or it is just a cognitive simplification, or even a mnemonic trick) - about politics, our relationships, and all the little observations & encounters (imagine a girl spilled her coffee trying to get out of the car, crossed the street in hurry and went inside a building & then you see her going out an hour later talking with someone angrily on the phone - click - your mind immediately starts making connections, trying to fabularise these two potentially completely separate events).

The best thing about this is that this natural tendency is that it's amplified, when one is convinced that the story is "really" there - once at the University we made a test, giving students random pieces of text taken from several criminal novels and telling them to put the story "back" together - and got ourselves at least several neat new short stories. Of course there is downside to this - it is very much how conspiracy theories are born.

But getting back to Soulsborne games, the devs seem to know the power of this mechanism. You see, it doesn't really even matter, if the pieces they left are intentionally coherent, or not - in the absence of other forms of storytelling - players will interpret the input as a story anyway, moreover they will seek better explanations within the community, if they feel they fail to "deliver" in this regard, and (as I already wrote in another thread) - the best testament to how powerful and compelling these fan creations can be, is a completely different game - narrative driven, which makes the whole thing quite grotesque - I'm talking about ME3 and the "indoctrination theory", which explained events of the game in a far more interesting & what is more important - coherent way - then anything Bioware tried to achieve.

 

[Remembrance]

The Witness was originally going to start with a narrator saying this:

My purpose here is to help you. We're conditioned by movies and video games to regard a statement like that as third act betrayal fuel, so if you have to be suspicious for a little while, OK... You have time.

(That's not in the game anymore.)

 

[OniBarubary]

Lots of examples here that don't fit, though. System Shock 2? No. But I see OniBarubary is taking care of that already haha.

But I guess the AV Club article isn't very helpful, to be fair, because they're talking about different things at different points in the article, and in at least one case someone quoted there doesn't even seem to understand what a narrator is at all. Weird article.

I try lol. I just have a neurosis regarding people who misuse terminology or misunderstand it and apply it to incorrect things. Sue me, I'm a writer, words and their meanings are super important to me. I mostly like to do it so people can become knowledgeable about stuff they were mistaken about.

And you're right, the article kinda...does a bad job about it which is further confusing the term.

Anyone looking to experience truly awesome unreliable narrators should look into Nabokov's books Pale Fire and Lolita.

Ha ha ha holy shit yeah. Dude ruined my expectations for his books because I read those two first and after that every other book of his I read I immediately was like "Alright so what's this dude lying about?"

If people are looking for a very prominent example of this, then the book and film Fight Club pretty much is defined by it's unreliable narrator.

Kings quest reboot had an unreliable narrator I think.
Far cry 3 tried this maybe, at least that's what the writer claims as to why it's the typical White savior story.

Amusingly, yes to both of those. KQ due to Graham's embellishments and literally telling the story so he can say whatever he wants and for Far Cry 3 this is amusingly true because your character does super fucking drugs during the whole game and as a result you have these tripped out scenes like the dance floor fights and indigenous trials and stuff that makes you wonder how much of what he says or does is really happening how you're seeing it. I don't think it explains the White Savior bullshit but it does explain a hell of a lot of other details.

Vanille from Final Fantasy XIII seems to be an obvious example.

Hrm. You know, I think that might actually be a little true. If you're saying that because she hides things and doesn't let everyone know the stuff she knows or is deceitful or whatever then no, goddammit, Imma have to throw a dictionary at you. But if you mean in the fact that she narrates the story and that as a result her telling of it is suspect...then maybe.

 

[The Citizen Kane of Games]

I think film narrative accomplishes this rather frequently.

To say a bit more, a narrator comes into play when someone is presenting the facts to you. They become unreliable when their interpretation of events is easily subverted by the objective points of the plot. A camera in a film is not likely to be unreliable without some seriously undermining framing in the narrative.

Anyone looking to experience truly awesome unreliable narrators should look into Nabokov's books Pale Fire and Lolita.

The film that immediately comes to mind is Atonement.

Spoiler

Basically the biggest part of the film is fictionalized in a fictional book because the main characters died before they could even tell this story to the writer of the book.

But I haven't see it used a lot of other films. People mostly confuse it with plot twists.

 

[shouamabane]

Easy exposition.

 

[Prevolition]

Ludonarrative Dissonance?

Lewd.

 

[Sushi Nao]

No, it is quite common with non-written media in general (imagine putting together a story told in a cycle of paintings for instance, or listening to a playlist). But it can be also used in a bookish form - most types of poetry don't include narrator instances, same is true for drama, but in order to have the same "piece together" mechanics they require a non-fabular structure - be it within a single text or, what is more common, a series of texts (a tome of poetry, anthology).

It is also very common in everyday's life - we think about our reality "in stories" (whether they are really there or it is just a cognitive simplification, or even a mnemonic trick) - about politics, our relationships, and all the little observations & encounters (imagine a girl spilled her coffee trying to get out of the car, crossed the street in hurry and went inside a building & then you see her going out an hour later talking with someone angrily on the phone - click - your mind immediately starts making connections, trying to fabularise these two potentially completely separate events).

The best thing about this is that this natural tendency is that it's amplified, when one is convinced that the story is "really" there - once at the University we made a test, giving students random pieces of text taken from several criminal novels and telling them to put the story "back" together - and got ourselves at least several neat new short stories. Of course there is downside to this - it is very much how conspiracy theories are born.

But getting back to Soulsborne games, the devs seem to know the power of this mechanism. You see, it doesn't really even matter, if the pieces they left are intentionally coherent, or not - in the absence of other forms of storytelling - players will interpret the input as a story anyway, moreover they will seek better explanations within the community, if they feel they fail to "deliver" in this regard, and (as I already wrote in another thread) - the best testament to how powerful and compelling these fan creations can be, is a completely different game - narrative driven, which makes the whole thing quite grotesque - I'm talking about ME3 and the "indoctrination theory", which explained events of the game in a far more interesting & what is more important - coherent way - then anything Bioware tried to achieve.

Awesome, thank you so much for the clarification on this. I'll likely encounter some more of this as I progress through University English classes next year, so I appreciate the perspective.

 

[Htown]

This is part of why I like Dark Souls: its narrator is its environment, and it's extremely reliable.

Look.

I love Dark Souls.

But there really isn't a need to shoehorn it into every topic.