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[Xiraiya]

Griffith is sort of strange and I can see why he has apologists. Until the whole rebirth thing happened.

Spoiler

When he makes the choice, he's physically and psychologically broken. There's basically nothing left in his head but his dream of having a kingdom. I don't think the pre-torture Griffith would have so willingly sacrificed his army, but there are still constant hints that he has very little sense of morality. When he's reborn as Femto, I have no idea what's going on there. I thought that Femto was some kind of caricature of Griffith, all of his values and desires technically intact, but completely warped. Then Tower of Conviction happens, he takes his Griffith form again and "Oh, I don't feel any remorse for any of that. See you later." So, what? Was he just pure, manipulative evil all along, who happened to have a soft spot for/ needed Guts? That strikes me as annoyingly simplistic for a series that earlier tried to make us feel sympathy for a Count who eats people.

Spoiler

Well from my standpoint I always felt wary of Griffith, I felt like he was the sort of person who wanted to do the right thing and be respected but only as long as it didn't get in the way of his goals, I think in reality Griffith was actually always quite an insecure and self destructive person deep down, when he can't control things, like Guts leaving, he can't help but act out and I think it's a side effect of always being above those around him, he felt like a protagonist with plot armor surrounded by fodder support characters essentially.

Griffith as he is now is just a glorified version of himself, the appearance is basically an illusion as he is still femto, he no longer feels things except under specific circumstances, he is smart enough and self aware enough that even if he feels nothing, he would never become a great ruler or build an amazing kingdom if he just slaughtered his way to the top and treated everyone like garbage, so he's basically on auto pilot just trying to achieve his ambition.

He is a very interesting character and there are various ways to interpret him without being wrong.

 

[Necron]

Johan from Monster. Lol beat by one minute.

Intelligent evil personified. Brilliant anime.

 

[Beloved]

Intelligent evil personified. Brilliant anime.

100% agree. What a fantastic story.

 

[RangerBAD]

I thought

Spoiler

he slept with the old dude because the kid dying got to him. He needed gold etc to prevent more deaths.

Also unless i am missing something wasnt the Charlotte sex mutal consent? I think she is with him in the current timeline.

Spoiler

Charlotte was mutual, but I think people are referring to Casca.

I remember it as him using the gold to fund the Band. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Goodstyle]

Tobi had the misfortune of coming into the story after Pain, who grew up in a third world country that's used as a battlefield for bigger countries, his parents died, his friends died, HIS DOG DIED. And then we're supposed to accept Tobi spending years killing people and starting wars because

Spoiler

he was lonely and idealistic and then some girl he liked died.

Spoiler

Gonna get this out of the way first and foremost. Rin wasn't just some girl he liked, she meant every bit as much to him as Yahiko meant to Nagato (if not more). Rin saved his life, was his only friend growing up, someone he was in love with, and the only person who shared and supported his dream to save the world. Knowing that she had to commit suicide using her own teammate would be deeply unsettling for anyone, let alone a kid.

There's also the fact that he was offered a way to create a literal dream world for everyone to live in after this event (which was specifically designed by Madara to be as traumatic as possible). It was because of this that his idealism was twisted into a false altruism, while Pain lost everything and was offered no way to move forward in life. The thing about Nagato is that he isn't a leader, he isn't an independent thinker, or someone with cunning or charisma. He's a natural follower who is swayed by stronger personalities like that of Yahiko, Obito, and Naruto. His story is more about someone that tries to rationalize a purpose or meaning in a world that offers none, which is why his plan was to create an endless cold war. He wanted to create a world that was as uncertain as he was because he was in need guidance, while Obito wanted to create a world without an identity because all of his judgements, ambitions, and actions for those he cared about ended up being meaningless. In his world, everything would be certain in that all actions one would choose for themselves would be irrelevant to creating happiness. That's how he was able to justify killing everyone, there would just be happier versions of them in the dream world that would get made.

I will agree with you on Kishi's repetitious nature, there are definitely a lot of themes and plot elements that got beaten to death. Both Obito and Nagato's big moments of tragedy were "friend dies - I go on rampage" scenes and both of them ended up helping Naruto out in the end after a philosophical debate. Even knowing that, I was able to enjoy both their character arcs because of the messages they brought to the story. Nagato's story was just all tragedy with no real hope in sight, but Obito's story was more about the dangers of letting yourself be cut off. There was hope in his life, but he threw away his identity and isolated himself. He tried to justify his actions by telling the world they'd regret it if they didn't give into the dream world, but it was in trying to force everyone to betray themselves as he did that he found the most regret.

Most discussion between Obito and Nagato boils down to this lame "My pain is greater" contest when there was more to the characters than just that. If Obito lived the same life as Nagato, he would never have had an opportunity to make the right choices. The fact that he chose wrong is a huge part of his character.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

On Tobi:

Spoiler

He also had Madara poisoning his mind. Keep in mind he was still at an age where, as Itachi put it, "he could be painted any color." What we see happen to Obito is exactly what Itachi feared was going to happen to Sasuke when he spoke those words to Naruto. Obito shows on several occasions that he just wants to go home, and he probably would have had Madara not steered him on a path of vengeance and hatred. This is totally disregarding the fact that Madara is the one who saved him, but that's another story.

And that is the badly written part. Why did Madara save Obito? Some random 14 year old kid? Sure, he was an Uchiha, but by no means a spectacular one. Did he just happen upon Obito by chance? Why take him on his pupil when he's a legend scary enough to cause a war by his name alone and Obito is some generic genin (maybe chunin by that point, I forget) kid?

 

[Walpurgis]

This is probably the best answer in this thread (second being Fate/zero characters). Johan is a monster, a horrifying, evil and intelligent monster. You don't see him much throughout the series but the show is very much about him. The trail of blood he leaves behind him, the lives that he ruins, the brutality that he engages in, is unlike anything I have ever seen. And what really got me was the realism. A person like this can actually exist and probably does. You really should watch this if you haven't already OP.
http://myanimelist.net/anime/19/Monster

Akagi from Akagi. Not really evil? Just badass and intelligent to a crazy degree.

Kaiji has the same ugly ass art like the one you posted (probably same manga-ka) but is awesome. The whole show is basically about super intricate mind games and strategies in various gambling games where people are fighting for their lives. The protagonist isn't evil but since this is a survival game, he has to make some tough decisions on who he can trust. He can get pretty badass too.

 

[ohNOitsRO]

Griffith - Berserk

In GAF fashion, first post wins.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Spoiler

Gonna get this out of the way first and foremost. Rin wasn't just some girl he liked, she meant every bit as much to him as Yahiko meant to Nagito (if not more). Rin saved his life, was his only friend growing up, someone he was in love with, and the only person who shared and supported his dream to save the world. Knowing that she had to commit suicide using her own teammate would be deeply unsettling for anyone, let alone a kid.

There's also the fact that he was offered a way to create a literal dream world for everyone to live in after this event (which was specifically designed by Madara to be as traumatic as possible). It was because of this that his idealism was twisted into a false altruism, while Pain lost everything and was offered no way to move forward in life. The thing about Nagito is that he isn't a leader, he isn't an independent thinker, or someone with cunning or charisma. He's a natural follower who is swayed by stronger personalities like that of Yahiko, Obito, and Naruto. His story is more about someone that tries to rationalize a purpose or meaning in a world that offers none, which is why his plan was to create an endless cold war. He wanted to create a world that was as uncertain as he was because he was in need guidance, while Obito wanted to create a world without an identity because all of his judgements, ambitions, and actions for those he cared about ended up being meaningless. In his world, everything would be certain in that all actions one would choose for themselves would be irrelevant to creating happiness. That's how he was able to justify killing everyone, there would just be happier versions of them in the dream world that would get made.

I will agree with you on Kishi's repetitious nature, there are definitely a lot of themes and plot elements that got beaten to death. Both Obito and Nagito's big moments of tragedy were "friend dies - I go on rampage" scenes and both of them ended up helping Naruto out in the end after a philosophical debate. Even knowing that, I was able to enjoy both their character arcs because of the messages they brought to the story. Nagito's story was just all tragedy with no real hope in sight, but Obito's story was more about the dangers of letting yourself be cut off. There was hope in his life, but he threw away his identity and isolated himself. He tried to justify his actions by telling the world they'd regret it if they didn't give into the dream world, but it was in trying to force everyone to betray themselves as he did that he found the most regret.

Most discussion between Obito and Nagito boils down to this lame "My pain is greater" contest when there was more to the characters than just that. If Obito lived the same life as Nagito, he would never have had an opportunity to make the right choices. The fact that he chose wrong is a huge part of his character.

I think the main problem is that too much of his motivation is written retroactively. Which is obviously a running problem with Naruto in general, but it feels like there's a step missing between "lonely kid" and "nihilistic sociopath." I feel like

Spoiler

we never get to see Obito as his own character. Obito is only ever characterized as a justification for Tobi's ambitions. We don't know what he likes, if he's good at anything, how he feels growing up in a "prestigious" clan, I don't think it's ever explicitly stated if he's an orphan. Previously, all we knew was that he thought Papa Kakashi was a hero, and is envious of Kakashi. Then Kishimoto immediately expects us to buy that Obito is utterly alone and depressed and has no friends and no parents and no hope whatsoever aside from Rin. There's enough material and world building in Nagato's backstory to make a prequel/ spin-off series. Obito is just "oh by the way, Obito has no friends and is completely miserable, that's why this happened!"

Kishimoto is obsessed with backstory, and yet one of the few times we actually need an expansive backstory, we get some contrived silliness that boils down to "loneliness, Naruto parallel, blah blah, Madara did it."

 

[Jack Remington]

Wha? You've lost me there.

So there was Fate/stay night some years ago with Saber as the love interest.

Then Unlimited Blade Works retold the story in apparently a much better way with Rin as the love interest.

The original visual novel had 3 possible stories with the 3rd story featuring Sakura Mato as the love interest.

What I'm saying is they should NOT adapt that into another anime series. UBW is the definitive telling of that story, and it's the only relationship for Emiya that really makes sense. Leave it as is, and if they want to continue the franchise, just do a different Holy Grail War.

 

[Annubis]

So there was Fate/stay night some years ago with Saber as the love interest.

Then Unlimited Blade Works retold the story in apparently a much better way with Rin as the love interest.

The original visual novel had 3 possible stories with the 3rd story featuring Sakura Mato as the love interest.

What I'm saying is they should NOT adapt that into another anime series. UBW is the definitive telling of that story, and it's the only relationship for Emiya that really makes sense. Leave it as is, and if they want to continue the franchise, just do a different Holy Grail War.

No, I mean you lost me as in Sakura is best girl.

 

[Goodstyle]

I think the main problem is that too much of his motivation is written retroactively. Which is obviously a running problem with Naruto in general, but it feels like there's a step missing between "lonely kid" and "nihilistic sociopath." I feel like

Spoiler

we never get to see Obito as his own character. Obito is only ever characterized as a justification for Tobi's ambitions. We don't know what he likes, if he's good at anything, how he feels growing up in a "prestigious" clan, I don't think it's ever explicitly stated if he's an orphan. Previously, all we knew was that he thought Papa Kakashi was a hero, and is envious of Kakashi. Then Kishimoto immediately expects us to buy that Obito is utterly alone and depressed and has no friends and no parents and no hope whatsoever aside from Rin. There's enough material and world building in Nagato's backstory to make a prequel/ spin-off series. Obito is just "oh by the way, Obito has no friends and is completely miserable, that's why this happened!"

Kishimoto is obsessed with backstory, and yet one of the few times we actually need an expansive backstory, we get some contrived silliness that boils down to "loneliness, Naruto parallel, blah blah, Madara did it."

Spoiler

It was stated that he was an orphan and had a shitty childhood like Naruto in chapter 653, which was why he wanted to be acknowledged and be Hokage in the first place. It was also the chapter that we find out that he wanted to save the world since before he was a Genin. We also know that Kakashi made fun of him for being the weakling within the Uchiha clan and that it was clearly something that bothered him in the Gaiden.

However, you are 100% in saying that there should have been more time in developing Obito's backstory. A lot of the stuff was SAID, but not shown. For example, he said that he traveled the world looking to see if there was any hope in it, if what Madara said was true, and that he concluded that there was nothing to see.

That is a hugely important piece of backstory Kishi didn't show us at all. He's just telling us these things and expecting us to retain it. The misunderstanding of Obito's character from most of the fans doesn't come from any fault in the readers, but rather Kishi's inability to convey the material effectively. It was clear that he was rushing a lot of things in those final 100 chapters.

 

[Broank]

Ainz Ooal Gown. In the past there was no one who did not know his name.

 

[Tigress]

Kimblee from Full Metal Alchemist (the manga and Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood. Not Kimblee from the first FMA anime).

 

[Jack Remington]

No, I mean you lost me as in Sakura is best girl.

God, Rin the Tsundere Queen is so much better IMO.

 

[K.Sabot]

Evil main characters are the best.

But I'm seeing a lot of clear antagonists in this thread, I wish there were more super evil calculated protagonists in entertainment.