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[CharlieDigital]

Seriously, what a bunch of crap. Rights? The only right you have when confronted by an officer of the law is the right to get shot if you don't kiss his ass.

Nah, but cops are human beings as well who knowingly enter a profession which has higher risks than most. It's understandable that an officer, especially a relatively green one like this guy (two years?), would be more wound up and reactive in a tense situation. I'm not absolving him of his error -- I think he should do time -- but to say that police are some sort of automatons who never make mistakes and who have no emotive reactions to a situation is just plain retarded.

They are human, after all, and subject to the same human reactions to adrenaline and a situation where the threat of an escalating confrontation is real.

If you're confronted by an officer, do everything you can to not escalate the situation. Don't run, don't shout, don't retaliate, follow directions, no fast movements, get the incident resolved and get on with your life. Seems like common sense.

 

[Salmonax]

The cop either thought he had his taser in a fit of seemingly impossible rookie-panic, or he's deranged. There's really no third option.

 

[Tarazet]

http://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2009/news20090104.aspx
http://www.bart.gov/news/barttv/?&cat=48&id=477

Straight from the horse's mouth.

 

[DY_nasty]

http://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2009/news20090104.aspx
http://www.bart.gov/news/barttv/?&cat=48&id=477

Straight from the horse's mouth.

When they start talking about the taser equipment and handcuffs it really, really sounds like bullshit. Also, I don't believe that he's only seen one video of the event either. This such bullshit.

 

[xnipx]

ok so you people defending the police in this situation saying that only a CRAZY person would execute a man in handcuffs laying on the ground in front of all of those people....what if he was crazy? doesn't that say something about the low standards required to be in a position of power to control whether someone lives or dies?

that is the true problem here, something is OBVIOUSLY wrong with the cop who shot him, so we should be worried about the fact that he was able to get in this position in the first place. if he was able to, who knows how lax their requirements truly are. and that is why people fear the police. and unless you have actually been profiled or the victim of police brutality/abuse of power you really can't cast judgment on those with less than ideal opinions of the police.

 

[Chittagong]

My couple of cents.

- There is really no question on whether the gun was accidentally fired: it wasn't. He pulled it and fired it, that's well documented.

- Now this brings up the question of why. There are two possible explanations. Either he went insane (Falling Down style, enough of this shit) or he made a mistake (thought of a taser but fired his gun).

- Both options are perfectly plausible. Even the taser one. It's pretty well documented that you can think of doing one action and then carry out an all different action not realizing it. Couldn't find the list, it's one of many behavioural errors.

- Obviously he can't have thought he could get away with an execution - with the crowds, CCTV and all.

- Regardless, he will end up in jail, maybe for rest of his life. Which, whatever the motive, is perfectly right.

As for the issue of police in general. I have huge respect for police. It's one of the shittiest jobs on the planet. You have to chase night and day lowlife scum bags that disregard everybody else, robbing, mugging, burglaries, raping, and you risk your life doing it every day.

Power to the police, wish they had guns in London too. There will always be mistakes and misconducts, but the benefits overweigh the risks, imo.

 

[Tarazet]

I just got around to watching the video I linked above (there's a transcript of it provided as well). A couple of points that haven't come up yet:

1) The taser is holstered on the opposite site of the body from the "duty weapon," the gun.
2) None of the young adults were armed with anything.
3) Oakland PD was called in for backup, though it was clearly a BART officer who fired the shot.

 

[Boogie]

This is a truly sickening incident. I can't begin to account for this officer's actions or what could have been going through his head.

Even so, there is the usual amount of ignorance regarding the police in this thread, and I'm going to have to correct some of it.

First, regarding safeties:

I don't believe it. With a gun, you take the safety off, load, and fire. With a tazer, you have to pull a pin first.

Many police pistols do not have a safety. Mine doesn't. And OF COURSE your gun is already going to be loaded when its in your holster.

And in any case, there's NO WAY if I had a safety that it would be on when the gun is in my holster. If I'm ever in a situation where I would need to use my pistol, I need to be able to fire right away, and not have to fuck around with the safety.

I hate fucking cops so fucking much. Only the lowest dregs of society choose to become police officers because they are too fucking stupid to do anything else with their lives. Fuck them all.

Fuck you too. I graduated with Distinction from one of Canada's top universities. One of my coworkers has a PhD in Chemistry. Others have law degrees.

Some of us cops are damn smart. In fact, most of my coworkers are damn smart.

I love how threads like these pull in the contrarians. May as well as call this an execution, that's how it fucking looked to me. And just because your a cop, does not absolve you of all the bad traits humans can exhibit. To some people, Police Officers can do no wrong, its such an infantile view. Just because you've got a family member that's an upstanding Officer of da' Law! doesn't mean you have to defend every idiot in uniform.

I'm just skimming the thread, but has anyone actually defended this guy?

pretty much. he put his finger on the trigger, took off the safety, aimed and shot someone at extremely close range. An experienced cop wont able to claim that he didn't know that sort of shot could kill someone.

What safety? Do you know what make and model of pistol BART officers carry? Good Lord...

It doesn't even matter what his intent was at that point. He put on the badge, he has to be held to a higher standard. Make an example out of this guy.

He should be held to a higher standard, but he's also subject to the same laws as everyone else. First-degree murder requires premeditation. There was none here.

 

[DY_nasty]

It really makes me uneasy because this all happened early new year's day. Dude was probably coming back from a party.

 

[Cloudy]

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=idJAr6NUy3E&feature=related

WTF, just saw that clear clip of it. Fuck this guy and why the hell is his name being withheld? He is a cowardly murderer and needs to go to jail for life..

 

[Tarazet]

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=idJAr6NUy3E&feature=related

WTF, just saw that clear clip of it. Fuck this guy and why the hell is his name being withheld? He is a cowardly murderer and needs to go to jail for life..

He has been identified as Johannes Mehserle.

There was a riot in Oakland last night, 200 businesses got damaged and cars were torched.

 

[Cloudy]

I saw the rioting but I didn't see that his name had been released.

I'm sure he didn't mean to shoot the guy but he wanted to wave his gun around and have a feeling of power. I hope the jackass rots in jail..

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=idJAr6NUy3E&feature=related

WTF, just saw that clear clip of it. Fuck this guy and why the hell is his name being withheld? He is a cowardly murderer and needs to go to jail for life..

God, some of you people.

How do you in one post condemn him for life as a cowardly murderer, and then in the next post, say he didn't mean to shoot him?

Murder implies INTENT.

The type of murder that would send you to jail for life, implies planning and deliberate intent.

 

[Cloudy]

Ok, he's just a cowardly "killer". Probably gets a hard-on by brandishing his gun and accidentally shot the guy.

IMO he needs to be made an example of...

 

[B!TCH]

He has been identified as Johannes Mehserle.

There was a riot in Oakland last night, 200 businesses got damaged and cars were torched.

While I can't say I condone it, I can certainly understand it. People, at least those who understand the profound implications of such an event, are extremely angry that this happened.

 

[Tarazet]

Ok, he's just a cowardly "killer". Probably gets a hard-on by brandishing his gun and accidentally shot the guy.

IMO he needs to be made an example of...

Negligent homicide, which is what you're accusing him of, carries a much lighter sentence than second-degree murder, which is what I feel this is.

 

[TheHeretic]

Negligent homicide, which is what you're accusing him of, carries a much lighter sentence than second-degree murder, which is what I feel this is.

By negligent homicide you mean manslaughter right?

 

[Cloudy]

Negligent homicide, which is what you're accusing him of, carries a much lighter sentence than second-degree murder, which is what I feel this is.

I think they need to throw the book at this guy. Even if we go with the taser theory (which I don't buy), dude was restrained and even tasing him at that point was unnecessary.

The cops are lucky the crowd didn't rush them right there. Then again, they just saw that asshole shoot a guy in the back. Unreal..

 

[Tarazet]

By negligent homicide you mean manslaughter right?

My mistake, negligent homicide is death caused by an inaction. I meant manslaughter.

 

[Cloudy]

My mistake, negligent homicide is death caused by an inaction. I meant manslaughter.

I think cops have the term "negligent discharge of a firearm". Dunno what happens when it leads to homicide..

 

[Tarazet]

I think cops have the term "negligent discharge of a firearm". Dunno what happens when it leads to homicide..

Then it could be an additional charge levied on top of a manslaughter charge if the prosecutor wants to maximize the sentence.

Re-edit: Well, maybe not. Since it was the same gunshot responsible for the negligent discharge and the manslaughter, you can't be charged twice for the same action..

 

[TheHeretic]

I think cops have the term "negligent discharge of a firearm". Dunno what happens when it leads to homicide..

Mens rea. If he didn't intend for the firearm to go off hes guilty of manslaughter.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Ok, he's just a cowardly "killer". Probably gets a hard-on by brandishing his gun and accidentally shot the guy.

IMO he needs to be made an example of...

Or maybe he is a good guy who accidentally killed someone.

Oh wait he is a cop, obviously he signed up for that very glorious moment. A culmination of years work, that night was.

 

[Cloudy]

Mens rea. If he didn't intend for the firearm to go off hes guilty of manslaughter.

If he has no prior record, couldn't he escape prison on a manslaughter charge? The rioting after that verdict will make this recent one look like a picnic...

 

[TheHeretic]

If he has no prior record, couldn't he escape prison on a manslaughter charge? The rioting after that verdict will make this recent one look like a picnic...

I seriously doubt he'll escape prison unless some extraordinary circumstances come to light. If it is manslaughter and not straight up murder then its either voluntary or involuntary. To me it seems to be at the least voluntary manslaughter, which should have prison time.

 

[Cloudy]

Or maybe he is a good guy who accidentally killed someone.

Or maybe he's a scumbag who feels tough brandishing his weapon over an already restrained person.

I can play that game too...

Look, I have nothing against law enforcement in general like some folks here. There was just no reason to draw his weapon there. I mean, he wasn't the only cop there and no one else thought to do that...

 

[DY_nasty]

IMO he needs to be made an example of...

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Solideliquid]

Just watched the video and jesus this is so sad.

I'm amazed that with all the civilians standing around and a potentially insane armed individual that the other police officers didn't at least take his weapon then and there. I'm not saying he was insane at the time because we just don't know at this point. Wow and the other officers just start talking on their radios and walking around I mean they should have at least taken his weapon...


Not to seem insensitive but doesn't this remind anyone of the movie Strange Days?

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Or maybe he's a scumbag who feels tough brandishing his weapon over an already restrained person.

I can play that game too...

Look, I have nothing against law enforcement in general like some folks here. There was just no reason to draw his weapon there. I mean, he wasn't the only cop there and no one else thought to do that...

He wasn't fully restrained, and he was struggling. And weapons experts have already commented that it looked like he thought he was firing his taser.

I know you can play that game, you already were, which is why I replied. There's a big difference between a guy who intimidates the public to feel tough and a dude who executes someone on purpose in front of tons of witnesses. But why am I bothering? He is a cowardly killer, a scumbag who deserves to rot in prison apparently :lol

 

[DY_nasty]

He wasn't fully restrained, and he was struggling. And weapons experts have already commented that it looked like he thought he was firing his taser.

I know you can play that game, you already were, which is why I replied. There's a big difference between a guy who intimidates the public to feel tough and a dude who executes someone on purpose in front of tons of witnesses. But why am I bothering? He is a cowardly killer, a scumbag who deserves to rot in prison apparently :lol

So what does the guy deserve then? To be let off with a slap on the wrist?

 

[seanoff]

He wasn't fully restrained, and he was struggling. And weapons experts have already commented that it looked like he thought he was firing his taser.

I know you can play that game, you already were, which is why I replied. There's a big difference between a guy who intimidates the public to feel tough and a dude who executes someone on purpose in front of tons of witnesses. But why am I bothering? He is a cowardly killer, a scumbag who deserves to rot in prison apparently :lol

yeah he does actually. at best he recklessly killed a man for no good reason. if i do that i go to jail. what makes him any different? he's a cop? not a good defense. neither is error a defense.

the police didn't even look in need of using a Taser to be honest.

the evidence is pretty clear and damning. he has to do time.

 

[quailtamer]

In total agreement that the cop deserves to be charged with murder. The video showed that he drew his weapon and deliberately fired.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=idJAr6NUy3E&feature=related

Then I saw the most recent posted video and I have to say that I've changed my opinion. And that the people saying you can't draw conclusions from one grainy video are right. In the most recent video it looks like the cop is shocked that he shot him and that it was an accident.

Was the cop negligent and does he deserve to be punished? Yes.

But it looks like the whole situation is just really messed up now. I don't think you should send a guy to jail for years for what I now believe was an accident. But on the other hand if he is let go, you are going to have thousands and thousands of angry rioters who drew the conclusion that the cop deliberately killed an unarmed civilian.

 

[WickedAngel]

In total agreement that the cop deserves to be charged with murder. The video showed that he drew his weapon and deliberately fired.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=idJAr6NUy3E&feature=related

Then I saw the most recent posted video and I have to say that I've changed my opinion. And that the people saying you can't draw conclusions from one grainy video are right. In the most recent video it looks like the cop is shocked that he shot him and that it was an accident.

Was the cop negligent and does he deserve to be punished? Yes.

But it looks like the whole situation is just really messed up now. I don't think you should send a guy to jail for years for what I now believe was an accident. But on the other hand if he is let go, you are going to have thousands and thousands of angry rioters who drew the conclusion that the cop deliberately killed an unarmed civilian.

At the end of the day, there was still no reason to draw the weapon in the first place. It might not be murder but there are any number of crimes that could properly address such gross mishandling of authority and his negligence to safely control the situation. The man unnecessarily drew a weapon on a subdued suspect and shot him.

He needs to go to jail.

 

[widgetraf]

It was an accident. I've watched the video about half a dozen times, and the look on the cop's face says it all. He was shocked that he shot Oscar Grant, and I do believe he deserved to be punished. But it was an accident, not murder.

I don't think there is any need to riot in Oakland. People are trying to make this into Rodney King or something when it's clearly not.

 

[Branduil]

He has been identified as Johannes Mehserle.

There was a riot in Oakland last night, 200 businesses got damaged and cars were torched.

Well, destroying other's personal property will certainly help matters.

 

[Stinkles]

It was an accident. I've watched the video about half a dozen times, and the look on the cop's face says it all. He was shocked that he shot Oscar Grant, and I do believe he deserved to be punished. But it was an accident, not murder.

I don't think there is any need to riot in Oakland. People are trying to make this into Rodney King or something when it's clearly not.

I think he thought he was pulling his taser. The look on his face says yes, that's what happened, but a Taser feels NOTHING like a pistol. So awful.

 

[Xenon]

This is a case where the cop needs to be charged for this crime. Cop or not what he did was wrong and he needs to be punished for it. There was no need to bring a gun into that situation.

There are many people in prison being punished for crimes they did not intend on committing, but still were the direct result their own actions. They didn't mean for those things to happen but they did. Pulling the gun was that action. You don't point a gun at someone without understanding that in doing so you could possibly take their life. The only time that is valid is when someone else’s life is at risk which clearly wasn't the case here.

I'm a big supporter of the police and respect what they have to deal with, but I can not defend this.

 

[Smiling Bandit]

Screaming mob, uncooperative suspect, confused and overstrained officer. He'll most likely go for the mistaken taser situation and that's what the video supports the most.

 

[reaver18]

looks like he got lost in the moment with everyone yelling, scrambled and pulled out his gun and just shot without even thinking. weird how humans act when their adrenaline is pumping. either way, it's his fault and he needs to be punished.

 

[Nocebo]

Screaming mob, uncooperative suspect, confused and overstrained officer. He'll most likely go for the mistaken taser situation and that's what the video supports the most.

He was going to taser a cuffed man who was lying face down on the floor? That would be nearly as bad, you'd think something like that would constitute torture.

 

[B!TCH]

Yet another unintelligent, uniformed thug representing the badge.

That's his excuse? How does a person mistake a taser for a handgun? Fucking idiot. Any punishment he gets is too good for him.

 

[Nocebo]

Wow, the fact that someone trained in the responsible and safe use of guns could kill a man on accident with a single shot sure makes you think.

 

[Aaron]

Wow, the fact that someone trained in the responsible and safe use of guns could kill a man on accident with a single shot sure makes you think.

They must not have provided him enough offenders pinned helpless to the floor in training.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Awful, awful story . I agree with the general consensus here that he's either psychotic or... well I don't know.

It really makes me uneasy because this all happened early new year's day. Dude was probably coming back from a party.

I was thinking the same thing :/.

Wow, the fact that someone trained in the responsible and safe use of guns could kill a man on accident with a single shot sure makes you think.

Yeah, it sure does.

 

[radioheadrule83]

They must not have provided him enough offenders pinned helpless to the floor in training.

Exactly!

It doesn't matter if it was a fucking accident. Tell that to the family.

A young man, only 22 years old, in the prime of his life - got into an argument... AN ARGUMENT - on a train, and he was shot in the back while he lay on the floor.

What, we let people off for shooting people if they show a shocked face afterwards now? Maybe it was a "What have I done?" face... something he fucking damn well should have been pulling. He shouldn't have even been pulling a tazer on the guy, tazers have been known to kill people too.

Yes, he should be made example of, yes he should go to jail. Fuck him. He killed a 22 year old kid.

 

[Phoenix]

looks like he got lost in the moment with everyone yelling, scrambled and pulled out his gun and just shot without even thinking. weird how humans act when their adrenaline is pumping. either way, it's his fault and he needs to be punished.

Adrenaline will actually be found to be the cause. When you're pumped up, you will do a LOT of things instinctively without even thinking. Police are normally trained that when they are in these situations that they should rely on others to take action. Its one of the reasons that many if not most states outlaw most of the actions of ramming vehicles and such when involved in car chases. An Adrenaline charged brain will not respond with reason - it will respond based on instinctive interpretation of the events.

In any event, this is a very tragic situation and the officer needs to go to jail. Intent is only necessary for murder, but for 2nd degree murder you don't need malicious intent - you need only show that the conduct was dangerous and without regard for human life. That one is a 50-50. The guy is 100% convicted of involuntary manslaughter - no chance of a failure to convict there.

Whether or not the guy intended to get has taser or not - he's going to have a HARD time since there was not even a reason to get a taser since the subject was subdued already by a large number of officers. His behavior was reckless and led to the death of an innocent. There should be a special penalty for that alone since you have training and you are carrying a weapon that can kill - the burden of responsibility falls to you since you're discharging the weapon!

 

[Smiling Bandit]

He was going to taser a cuffed man who was lying face down on the floor? That would be nearly as bad, you'd think something like that would constitute torture.

Trying to taser an uncooperative suspect is hardly out of line, is it?

And why should they make an example of him? To appease the stupid mob who'll angrily shake their fists to the sky anyway? To ruin his life further? How can you demand to make an example of an accident? They should raise their training standards.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I've got to question the idea of giving BART officers guns as opposed to just tasers. They operate in enclosed spaces and deal with crowds... plus they don't seem to be able to handle weapons properly. Why not just leave it to the ordinary police or other BART officers who are specifically trained to handle weapons in those situations.

 

[Earthstrike]

Trying to taser an uncooperative suspect is hardly out of line, is it?

And why should they make an example of him? To appease the stupid mob who'll angrily shake their fists to the sky anyway? To ruin his life further? How can you demand to make an example of an accident? They should raise their training standards.

Are tasers effective when launched into the head? Aren't there risks associated with that?

 

[radioheadrule83]

Trying to taser an uncooperative suspect is hardly out of line, is it?

Yes it is if he's fucking cuffed. What kind of pussy do you have to be to want to tazer someone who's already restrained and cuffed on the floor? If the guy weren't dead, I'm sure he'd rather have been roughed about a bit than shot with a tazer. Its completely unnecessary. Tazers should ONLY be used when people are out of control and can't be restrained any other way. Not when they're ALREADY RESTRAINED.

I'm not 100% convinced of his bullshit story anyway.

And why should they make an example of him? To appease the stupid mob who'll angrily shake their fists to the sky anyway? To ruin his life further? How can you demand to make an example of an accident? They should raise their training standards.

Because in a position of responsibility, he shot a restrained 22 year old man dead. It doesn't happen everyday, it shouldn't, and there should be no message to society that someone can get away with it, and especially no hint that if you're marshall of the law (BART.. I dunno) that you're above the law. No-one is. The moment you point a gun at someone, even before you pull the trigger, you can be and often are responsible for what happens next.