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[Marty Chinn]

Would you be averse to "restrained"? Because I'd say that having a knee in your neck is "restrained".

Look, my problem is someone yelling out the guy was cuffed at the time. You can't take it any further than that. If we're going to discuss it, let's at least get the facts straight. The fact is, the kid was not in handcuffs.

 

[itsinmyveins]

TGateKeeper:

First of all, I'm not trying to defend the guy and I do not appreciate you calling me an idiot.

I am, however, not gonna judge someone solely on a single short clip I saw weeks ago, not knowing anything about what happened there aside from speculation in this thread. At first I thought the thing about the taser sounded ridiculous as well when mentioned almost at the start of this thread regarding some other incident where that seemed to be the explanation. To make such a huge mistake would of course be very negligent, almost unbelievable. Whether the cops gun is heavy or not or made entierly out of steel I don't know.

According to Boogie (who I believe is a cop) earlier in this thread, using a tazer on someone wouldn't shock the officer holding them down. If that's true or not and how it works, I don't know.

But mainly it was people mentioning how the officer himself looked surprised when it happened and the amount of witnesses around. I mean, if he meant to do it there'd be pretty much no chance of getting away with it. Not only because of the witnesses, but also because there were several other officers there.

I've never said anything about it being okay to use a taser in that situation either, what I've said is rather the opposite. So clearly it's a case of brutality (and even more so after hearing what people have said about that new video) resulting in a person dying.

 

[zombieshavebrains]

Look, my problem is someone yelling out the guy was cuffed at the time. You can't take it any further than that. If we're going to discuss it, let's at least get the facts straight. The fact is, the kid was not in handcuffs.

You're right. Pretty sure the law would be on the cops side if they tried to say he was in "custody" or in "restraints".

 

[DataStream]

I think the added context given by this new video has greatly changed my viewpoint on the incident. Its hard to not come to the conclusion that the shooting was the apex of a systematic abuse of the victim.

I suspect that the cop who punched him ended up getting a deal from the D.A. and his testimony is why the case wound up as 2nd Degree Murder.

 

[Boogie]

The "he thought it was a taser" explanation is very hard to believe, for a variety of reasons.

1) The taser usually being kept on the opposite side of the gun, for the very reason of not confusing the two

2) The very different feel, grip, and weight between the two.

The only reason I am not COMPLETELY dismissing it as an absurd excuse is that human perception goes very wonky in stressful situations, as has been well researched by Dave Grossman.

 

[itsinmyveins]

The only reason I am not COMPLETELY dismissing it as an absurd excuse is that human perception goes very wonky in stressful situations, as has been well researched by Dave Grossman.

Yes, that's kind of what I'm thinking too, but even if that's the case there's brutaity involved and negligence to a huge degree.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

I feel sorry for parts of America where this happens and it is not filmed.

Just hope the police officer gets what he deserves for this in justice. 1st degree murder DOES seem harsh, but to be honest, I believe this is justice. If your mind goes wonky during pressure then someone should have seen it during his training or the ability tests before getting his gun license. I honestly do not think that is a legible excuse IMO

But that's why I am glad I live in the U.K where there are no such things as Rapid Transport/Transit teams who own guns. Our police barely have guns, just a few with MP5's but they are in the minority. I know U.K prob have less guns and it isn't comparable with U.S.A, but there might be your answer to things, eh?

*waves Union Jack proudly*

 

[Rasputin]

I feel sorry for parts of America where this happens and it is not filmed.

Just hope the police officer gets what he deserves for this in justice. 1st degree murder DOES seem harsh, but to be honest, I believe this is justice. If your mind goes wonky during pressure then someone should have seen it during his training or the ability tests before getting his gun license. I honestly do not think that is a legible excuse IMO

But that's why I am glad I live in the U.K where there are no such things as Rapid Transport/Transit teams who own guns. Our police barely have guns, just a few with MP5's but they are in the minority. I know U.K prob have less guns and it isn't comparable with U.S.A, but there might be your answer to things, eh?

*waves Union Jack proudly*

Shot man not connected to bombing

A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was a Brazilian electrician unconnected to the incidents.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

Shot man not connected to bombing

A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was a Brazilian electrician unconnected to the incidents.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

Shot dead my MI5/police agents who had been tracking him for a while and made a MISTAKE in MISIDENTIFYING him as a terrorist. They tracked him for a while and decided to kill him due to him running into a train station. It was a calculated decision. NOT what happened in this BART case.

You obviously canna compare the two situations

 

[itsinmyveins]

Shot man not connected to bombing

A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was a Brazilian electrician unconnected to the incidents.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

That's several years old though, isn't it, and they thought it was a suspect they were looking for? I remember when I read about it, totally fucked up. It wasn't long after 9/11, was it?

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

That's several years old though, isn't it, and they thought it was a suspect they were looking for? I remember when I read about it, totally fucked up. It wasn't long after 9/11, was it?

Nah it was after our attacks on our transport services in 2007 I believe. It was fucked up and I was extremely annoyed and pissed at the police, but this is a competently different issue here

 

[Deleted member 1235]

That's several years old though, isn't it, and they thought it was a suspect they were looking for? I remember when I read about it, totally fucked up. It wasn't long after 9/11, was it?

It was quite a while after 9/11 but it was very soon after the tube bombings. I don't remember the date of the tube bombings. I think that was approx 3 1/2 years ago

 

[itsinmyveins]

Oh, alright. I just remember hearing about it back then and thinking that the officer's doing that probably were all worried about a terrorist attack because there recently had been one. Either way, that too was a total failure of the police or whatever agency was in charge.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

Oh, alright. I just remember hearing about it back then and thinking that the officer's doing that probably were all worried about a terrorist attack because there recently had been one. Either way, that too was a total failure of the police or whatever agency was in charge.

You know, I can either say it, or you can be disgusted by reading the article [edit I canna find the article so I will just tell you that the woman in charge got a fucking PROMOTION]

7th July London Bombings

 

[B!TCH]

I feel sorry for parts of America where this happens and it is not filmed.

That really is the most disturbing aspect of this story (if it wasn't already disturbing enough).

 

[itsinmyveins]

You know, I can either say it, or you can be disgusted by reading the article [edit I canna find the article so I will just tell you that the woman in charge got a fucking PROMOTION]

7th July London Bombings

I'm talking about the guy being shot after that, though, not the incident. I know next to nothing about how that attack was handled by the british intelligence agencies.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

I'm talking about the guy being shot after that, though, not the incident. I know next to nothing about how that attack was handled by the british intelligence agencies.

Nah nah that's what I mean. The woman who was in overall charge of the situation with the shooting of the innocent Jean Charles de Menezes got a promotion

 

[Kevtones]

This cop, whether it by negligence or by brutality, murdered the kid. Cut and dry and on video. This shit only further solidifies how fucked the situation is.

 

[abstract alien]

...as if this wasnt bad enough already.
wtf

 

[Zenith]

Shot dead my MI5/police agents who had been tracking him for a while and made a MISTAKE in MISIDENTIFYING him as a terrorist. They tracked him for a while and decided to kill him due to him running into a train station. It was a calculated decision. NOT what happened in this BART case.

You obviously canna compare the two situations

it was worse. it was an officially sanctioned summary execution. and then there was all the evidence tampering by the higher-ups and blatent lying by the officers.

 

[TGateKeeper]

TGateKeeper:

First of all, I'm not trying to defend the guy and I do not appreciate you calling me an idiot.

I am, however, not gonna judge someone solely on a single short clip I saw weeks ago, not knowing anything about what happened there aside from speculation in this thread. At first I thought the thing about the taser sounded ridiculous as well when mentioned almost at the start of this thread regarding some other incident where that seemed to be the explanation. To make such a huge mistake would of course be very negligent, almost unbelievable. Whether the cops gun is heavy or not or made entierly out of steel I don't know.

According to Boogie (who I believe is a cop) earlier in this thread, using a tazer on someone wouldn't shock the officer holding them down. If that's true or not and how it works, I don't know.

But mainly it was people mentioning how the officer himself looked surprised when it happened and the amount of witnesses around. I mean, if he meant to do it there'd be pretty much no chance of getting away with it. Not only because of the witnesses, but also because there were several other officers there.

I've never said anything about it being okay to use a taser in that situation either, what I've said is rather the opposite. So clearly it's a case of brutality (and even more so after hearing what people have said about that new video) resulting in a person dying.

I was not refering to you as an idiot. the reason why I quoted you was because of the comment you made about prison not about the taser.

 

[Nolan.]

it was worse. it was an officially sanctioned summary execution. and then there was all the evidence tampering by the higher-ups and blatent lying by the officers.

Also aren't police officers allowed to conferr with each other anyway after the incident thereby ''getting stories right'' becomes likely.

 

[itsinmyveins]

I was not refering to you as an idiot. the reason why I quoted you was because of the comment you made about prison not about the taser.

Alright, then nevermind about that comment

I thought it was mainly aimed at me since I've both talked about the prison-thing and about the taser.

EDIT: And about that prison stuff I think I'm pretty much agreeing with you.

 

[Rasputin]

I'm talking about the guy being shot after that, though, not the incident. I know next to nothing about how that attack was handled by the british intelligence agencies.

If I remember the incident right it was half a dozen men with sub machine guns who were wearing absolutely nothing to identify them as law enforcement. The young man was suddenly out of nowhere being chased by a half dozen men with sub machine guns. The guy did what anyone in that situation would do, he ran for his life. He ran underground into the subway and tried to hide from them on a train. Once he was cornered there with nowhere else to run they shot him dead.

 

[Keylime]

Edit: Wtf wrong thread :lol

 

[Zenith]

If I remember the incident right it was half a dozen men with sub machine guns who were wearing absolutely nothing to identify them as law enforcement. The young man was suddenly out of nowhere being chased by a half dozen men with sub machine guns. The guy did what anyone in that situation would do, he ran for his life. He ran underground into the subway and tried to hide from them on a train. Once he was cornered there with nowhere else to run they shot him dead.

no, no. it was very much different. The police monitored him getting on a bus. monitored him going into the tube. monitored him buying a ticket and getting on the train like everyone else. they then decided he was a suicide bomber and ordered him to be killed. officers were not wearing uniforms. officers did not identify themselves as police. he did not even get out of his seat when they ran on the train brandishing guns. one of them held him down by the shoulders and they shot him 9 times in the head with pistols. one of the officer's guns even jammed, and he still had time to clear it and continue pumping bullets into him.

then came the cover-up. they tried to stop an IPCC investigation from being launched. they put out false info about him wearing a heavy jacket possibly concealing a bomb belt, running from officers, jumping over the turnstyles with no ticket. this was all shown to be the sham it was when the CCTV footage was leaked. in the trial the officers claimed they shouted "armed police" and Menezes got up out of his seat towards them. this was all disputed by the civilians sitting either side and opposite Menezes at the time who said the police did none of those things and acted in a dangerous manner. one of the witnesses even said he thought the police were terrorists.

it was the first state-ordered summary execution in god knows how long. viva la War on Terror (tm)!

 

[S-Wind]

I feel sorry for parts of America where this happens and it is not filmed.

Just hope the police officer gets what he deserves for this in justice. 1st degree murder DOES seem harsh, but to be honest, I believe this is justice. If your mind goes wonky during pressure then someone should have seen it during his training or the ability tests before getting his gun license. I honestly do not think that is a legible excuse IMO

But that's why I am glad I live in the U.K where there are no such things as Rapid Transport/Transit teams who own guns. Our police barely have guns, just a few with MP5's but they are in the minority. I know U.K prob have less guns and it isn't comparable with U.S.A, but there might be your answer to things, eh?

*waves Union Jack proudly*

Don't get too cocky now.

 

[Belgand]

I feel sorry for parts of America where this happens and it is not filmed.

Just hope the police officer gets what he deserves for this in justice. 1st degree murder DOES seem harsh, but to be honest, I believe this is justice. If your mind goes wonky during pressure then someone should have seen it during his training or the ability tests before getting his gun license. I honestly do not think that is a legible excuse IMO

But that's why I am glad I live in the U.K where there are no such things as Rapid Transport/Transit teams who own guns. Our police barely have guns, just a few with MP5's but they are in the minority. I know U.K prob have less guns and it isn't comparable with U.S.A, but there might be your answer to things, eh?

*waves Union Jack proudly*

Well, part of the issue is that this is a commuter rail system that travels over multiple counties and is administered by the state. Since it goes through multiple jurisdictions they have their own police force. Sort of like how there's a highway patrol with jurisdiction over the highway because otherwise it would be a jurisdictional nightmare with local police forces.

Essentially they're just local cops, but with a very specific jurisdiction.

it was the first state-ordered summary execution in god knows how long. viva la War on Terror (tm)!

Oh I'm sure there have been plenty of those in the US, we just do a better job covering them up.

 

[BigGreenMat]

Bzzt. Not in this case, no. However, there are instances of suspects who have cocaine-induced psychosis, or who are hopped up on crystal meth, and they feel no pain. There are videos of 5 officers fighting to subdue a single suspect. In those situations, it doesn't matter how many officers there are, the only solution is a taser (or a rear naked choke, if possible)

If what you said is true then a taser would be similarly ineffective based on how tasers work. They are generally ineffective against people in altered states.

 

[Boogie]

If what you said is true then a taser would be similarly ineffective based on how tasers work. They are generally ineffective against people in altered states.

Umm, no. You couldn't be more wrong. When deployed in probe mode, provided the probes make contact with the skin, it doesn't matter what fucking "altered state" he's in, the dude is going down. It's not a "pain compliance" weapon in that mode. "How tasers work" in that mode is by disrupting a person's voluntary muscle control, it completely incapacitates you.


Now, in push-stun mode, that may not be the case, as the effect is more localized ie. it is incredibly painful, but doesn't incapacitate your entire body.

I don't why you're trying to correct me, since it seems clear you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

 

[BigGreenMat]

Umm, no. You couldn't be more wrong. When deployed in probe mode, provided the probes make contact with the skin, it doesn't matter what fucking "altered state" he's in, the dude is going down. It's not a "pain compliance" weapon in that mode. "How tasers work" in that mode is by disrupting a person's voluntary muscle control, it completely incapacitates you.


Now, in push-stun mode, that may not be the case, as the effect is more localized ie. it is incredibly painful, but doesn't incapacitate your entire body.

I don't why you're trying to correct me, since it seems clear you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

No, I know exactly what I am talking about. Tasers are many times ineffective, despite having made a successful circuit. I know the intent of the weapon and that it disrupts voluntary muscle control, but that doesn't mean it is always effective. That is the reason tasers are generally only recommended to be used if another officer is there to provide an alternative use of force is available. I personally never want to get hit by one.

 

[Nikashi]

Updated information on the upcoming trial of this officer:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/crime/detail?entry_id=62514&tsp=1

Mehserle's attorneys have said the former officer meant to stun Grant with his Taser on the platform at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland but pulled his pistol by mistake.

Looks like that's what he's arguing after all, what a fucking idiot.

 

[xMk2x]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhbddux00Eo#t=4m22s

 

[Tim the Wiz]

It's murder. End of.

That story about the killing of the Brazilian electrician in the aftermath of the London bombings still gets me angry. The agents involved were obviously out for blood on intentional orders, and an innocent man died for it. The cover-up afterward, when they realized - oops - they'd been too hasty to grab a PR victory, was nearly just as bad. Honestly, it was like handing them a license to kill after the fact. I await a time when suspects are no longer assumed automatically guilty simply because the suspected offence is terror-related - and yes, we've had some culpability on that front here in Australia, too. Thankfully, counter-terror laws installed in Britain since 9/11 have been under some review.

 

[DataStream]

Verdict at 4pm PST

 

[ocadman]

No matter what the verdict is, BART will probably be all fucked up today, at the least.

 

[Chris R]

Verdict at 4pm PST

Any place to watch it live?

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Second degree murder? :lol

What a shame if he is actually convicted of that.

 

[Zenith]

It's murder. End of.

That story about the killing of the Brazilian electrician in the aftermath of the London bombings still gets me angry. The agents involved were obviously out for blood on intentional orders, and an innocent man died for it.

They weren't just out for blood, they were ordered to kill him instead of detaining him. Hence 9 bullets in the head and 1 officer clearing a jam from his gun before continuing to fire.

Our first state ordered summary execution.

 

[msv]

That story about the killing of the Brazilian electrician in the aftermath of the London bombings still gets me angry. The agents involved were obviously out for blood on intentional orders, and an innocent man died for it. The cover-up afterward, when they realized - oops - they'd been too hasty to grab a PR victory, was nearly just as bad. Honestly, it was like handing them a license to kill after the fact.

Yeah same here. I feel that we should have stricter rules for when things like this happen. All the people involved here should be incarcerated imo.

 

[Chris R]

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/livenow?id=7544444 Live video

 

[DataStream]

guilty of involuntary manslaughter... some bullshit

 

[paranoidfortean]

I want to make this cause my own as I've tired of the whole Haiti earthquake thing. Is it still in?

 

[StoOgE]

Fucking BULLSHIT.

He executed a kid and got off with a slap on the wrist. A kid is DEAD and this asshole is going to see the light of day.

California, you know what to do. Burn your state down.

 

[ezekial45]

Worst part is he isn't going to jail. He's going straight home now.

This is BULLSHIT!

 

[dabig2]

This is some ol bullshit!

Havn't followed the story since it happened but has the family sued the state and BART out of existence yet?

 

[StoOgE]

2-4 YEARS?

HORESHIT.

 

[Gary Whitta]

...yeah, I think I'll stay home tonight.

 

[wenis]

Such a light penalty. Most likely he'll get 4 years in an out of state prison with police protection. My dad is already fuming (he's a 30 year vet with the Santa Clara Sheriff's department).
Thank god I don't need to ride BART tonight.

 

[ronito]