Support NeoGAF

[AlphaDragoon]

Truth in a single post.

My dude.

Great OP. I'm a straight white male and I don't even live in America but before the results I didn't think I could cry so much because of an election.
I've been having some heated arguments with friends and family members because of this but I honestly don't give a shit anymore, I don't give a shit if they tell me again that I'm too sensitive. WTF ? Caring for the life of fellow human beings is being too sensitive ?
Fuck off with this shit. It goes along the "you're just adopting a posture, don't talk on behalf of women, gays or blacks".
You see that's the point, seeing everyone as an equal human being, ffs. So the fact that I'm a white male shouldn't matter if I want to call out some sexist bullshit.
I'm also so fucking tired of being told that I've lived in a bubble, coming from people who would not give a shit about Gamergate or the BLM movement. Fuck you. I see racism and homophobia everyday, you can't go read any comments below a Youtube video without seeing some bigot bullshit comment, and you can't beat someone in an online videogame without being called a "nigger" or a "faggot" because black people and homosexuals are supposed to be the worst things in existence for these shitheads.
So yeah, screw people telling anyone that they should respect bigotry, that they should give their compassion to freaking racists. My compassion will stay with the people that are being oppressed and whose lives are getting even worse because of said fucking bigots.

Also my dude.

 

[JeTmAn81]

Just exactly how do you propose to establish a universal moral code when moral relativism is all that secular society believes in?

 

[Ekai]

Boxing against strawmen. Almost no on on GAF is doing anything that you are railing against.

As a minority reading Gaf, I have to immensely disagree. There's been a huge defense force for "mere differences of opinion" (ie: bigotry is sometimes just part of politics).

There was a fucker who said my rights were a mere difference of opinion before and they then claimed to give a fuck about minorities but voted for Trump on economic grounds. Proves how much they actually care about minorities.

 

[Dipper145]

I agree that people should obviously be decent towards other human beings.

I know its not explicitly stated in the original post, but to me it comes across as: anyone who voted for trump is a bigoted person who does not value my worth as a human being.

Which seems like a disagreeable statement to me, as political viewpoints are different from moral viewpoints.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Just exactly how do you propose to establish a universal moral code when moral relativism is all that secular society believes in?

It easily falls under the preamble of the constitution and subsequent amendments.

 

[Nepenthe]

I agree that people should obviously be decent towards other human beings.

I know its not explicitly stated in the original post, but to me it comes across as: anyone who voted for trump is a bigoted person who does not value my worth as a human being.

Which seems like a disagreeable statement to me, as political viewpoints are different from moral viewpoints.

Here it is again for you since you missed the whole entire point of this thread.

 

[broncobuster]

To quote Jesse Williams and expand it to include all minorities groups:

"The burden of the brutalized is not to comfort the bystander. That's not our job, alright; stop with all that. If you have a critique for the resistance, for our resistance, then you better have an established record of critique of our oppression. If you have no interest—if you have no interest in equal rights for us, then do not make suggestions to those who do. Sit down."

This should be included in any and all political thread OP.

 

[Audioboxer]

It easily falls under the preamble of the constitution and subsequent amendments.

Not really, as the headache America has as mentioned in here already is that the 1st amendment pretty much stops government punishing for speech. The 1st amendment and freedom of speech exists to protect from government, that is its purpose. Private firms, employers, websites, forums and social media in general can all ban/restrict/etc. They are not imposing on your freedom of speech and it's embarrassing how many people get that wrong when they scream "freedom of speech" after getting banned from somewhere (or fired from a job). Government though has very little power to take away a citizens rights because they are spouting hate. Government can only really get involved when it turns to credible threats, or obviously out and out violence.

There's a reason the Westboro Baptist Church can exist, and there's a reason white supremacists can shout hate speech at Trump rallies. That is both fortunately (I support FoP) and unfortunately (I don't support hate and bigotry) how your government is setup. In some individual situations ymmv, and of course defamation laws exist. But that's some broad reasoning as to why there isn't some blanket crack down on hate speech in America.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Not really, as the headache America has as mentioned in here already is that the 1st amendment pretty much stops government punishing for speech. The 1st amendment and freedom of speech exists to protect from government, that is its purpose. Private firms, employers, websites, forums and social media in general can all ban/restrict/etc. They are not imposing on your freedom of speech and it's embarrassing how many people get that wrong when they scream "freedom of speech" after getting banned from somewhere (or fired from a job). Government though has very little power to take away a citizens rights because they are spouting hate. Government can only really get involved when it turns to credible threats, or obviously out and out violence.

There's a reason the Westboro Baptist Church can exist, and there's a reason white supremacists can shout hate speech at Trump rallies. That is both fortunately (I support FoP) and unfortunately (I don't support hate and bigotry) how your government is setup. In some individual situations ymmv, and of course defamation laws exist. But that's some broad reasoning as to why there isn't some blanket crack down on hate speech in America.

Jeez you're just targeting me aren't ya?

I was mostly speaking about bigotry developed into actual policy like Jim Crow Laws, Building Walls, Banning Muslims, Slavery... you know that stuff.

Yes everyone has a right to their speech as useless as it may be but there are nuances to the First Amendment and the Supreme Court can easily decided... well not easily... what is covered in it and what isn't. It's why you can't shout bomb in a packed area and use it as free speech... It's why there are designated protest zones... it's why you can't have a concert near a neighborhood.

 

[Audioboxer]

Jeez you're just targeting me aren't ya?

I was mostly speaking about bigotry developed into actual policy like Jim Crow Laws, Building Walls, Banning Muslims, Slavery... you know that stuff.

Yes everyone has a right to their speech as useless as it may be but there are nuances to the First Amendment and the Supreme Court can easily decided... well not easily... what is covered in it and what isn't. It's why you can't shout bomb in a packed area and use it as free speech... It's why there are designated protest zones... it's why you can't have a concert near a neighborhood.

lol not targeting you at all. Don't take interaction and engagement as a personal threat

You are right though about the last parts you said on speech. There are caveats like those you mentioned, and as I said threats to someone where there seems to be intent to cause harm can be acted on by government to PREVENT violence/murder. Speech has consequences, it just doesn't have the consequence of always being able to call on government to stop it when it's hateful. Which is why there is such a need for FB/Twitter/YT and other places to give a damn about moderation. Anyone who cries freedom of speech whilst taking part on these services is as I said above, completely misusing the term.

 

[UltimaPooh]

lol not targeting you at all. Don't take interaction and engagement as a personal threat

You are right though about the last parts you said on speech. There are caveats like those you mentioned, and as I said threats to someone where there seems to be intent to cause harm can be acted on by government to PREVENT violence/murder.

Text isn't the best way to sell sarcasm. :/

But I think there is a strong argument that hate speech is intimidation of someone and should not be covered by the first amendment. It would impede on the general welfare of the country if it got to a boiling point and I think for all intents and purposes it has.

I mean there is a murder and then there is hate murder where they killed the person based on their external factors they had no control over.

I dunno though. I would say we shouldn't ban the words outright because there needs to be context but I think there can be a strong point to prosecute someone for racial and sexual charged language to intimidate someone or a group of people.

 

[Audioboxer]

But I think there is a strong argument that hate speech is intimidation of someone and should not be covered by the first amendment. It would impede on the general welfare of the country if it got to a boiling point and I think for all intents and purposes it has.

I mean there is a murder and then there is hate murder where they killed the person based on their external factors they had no control over.

I dunno though. I would say we shouldn't ban the words outright because there needs to be context but I think there can be a strong point to prosecute someone for racial and sexual charged language to intimidate someone or a group of people.

But that is the problem as I laid it out above, the first amendment would need amended. I'm not saying that can't be done, but you see how fucking crazy your fellow Americans tend to go when amendments are even discussed. More so over the 2nd amendment and gun control.

Hate speech laws exist in my country, the UK. You really need to push limits to actually get done by them, and mostly they've targeted extremist preachers so far, but some have gotten police visits for bigotry. Not to mention it means out in public if there is ever racist abuse you can be arrested. I support hate speech laws fully when they are done properly, I just don't support an authoritarian government trying to force people on what they can say, versus what they can't. The former can potentially veer into situations where you can't criticise and mock something like Religion, because it's offensive. That is an Orwellian nightmare in the making. However reasonable hate speech laws are not.

So yeah, I'd fully support reform in America, but good luck trying to get that 1st amendment... amended.

edit: Also sorry I missed your sarcasm

 

[LoserMakesGood]

I certainly agree all US citizens deserve equal rights and equal protections.

They lost an election they could absolutely not afford to lose. They deserve enormous amounts of blame.

not only that they lost it by half assing it

 

[obijkenobi]

I'm not even gonna lie. Your responses in the "lost a close friend" thread were the proverbial straw as to why I wrote this thread. This is partly dedicated to you, so give Saturnman a big hand everyone. However, this is behavior that I've seen even during the election, and as a black woman it scares the ever-living shit out of me how quickly some progressives are rolling over.

Latino male in Texas here and I agree. I'm not tolerating that shit here. It's mostly been white males that I went to high school with, and frankly, I'm not interested in hanging out with people that think my family are descendant from rapists and bad hombres.

I have no problem debating policy like tax rates or whatever, but if I am not going to be seen as equal as a function of my skin tone and cultural heritage, I don't really have the time or patience to talk to you.

To Nepenthe's greater point (thank you for fighting the good fight) I am tired of being told by some of moderate conservative friends and some of my moderate liberal friends to "relax." No thanks on that either.

 

[UltimaPooh]

But that is the problem as I laid it out above, the first amendment would need amended. I'm not saying that can't be done, but you see how fucking crazy your fellow Americans tend to go when amendments are even discussed. More so over the 2nd amendment and gun control.

Hate speech laws exist in my country, the UK. You really need to push limits to actually get done by them, and mostly they've targeted extremists preachers so far, but some have gotten police visits for bigotry. Not to mention it means out in public if there is ever racist abuse you can be arrested. I support hate speech laws fully when they are done properly, I just don't support an authoritarian government trying to force people on what they can say, versus what they can't. The former can potentially veer into situations where you can't criticise and mock something like Religion, because it's offensive. That is an Orwellian nightmare in the making. However reasonable hate speech laws are not.

So yeah, I'd fully support reform in America, but good luck trying to get that 1st amendment... amended.

Doesn't need to be amended to accomplish that. One could argue that shouting bomb in a populated area is intimidation and able to cause panic... you can then apply that to a court judgement by the supreme court by stating that when racially charged language used to intimidate that is used to cause panic in minorities and is not conducive to free speech.

But you are correct in this political climate we'll need all the luck in the galaxy to get that shit approved.

 

[Lime]

I was going to make my own thread about this to a degree but since you have already made the thread, I'll just post my thoughts in this one. Kind of long winded...sorry not sorry.

Edit: Bottom of the page, no one will ever read, GG Angelus pt 2. Kill me now

This election has actually done a great job in illustrating the completely different ideas and belief about race in America. The polling data seems to back up the feeling I'm about to express, so if you get offended...well do some soul searching.

White America and minority America view this country much differently; much of this is due to the fact that white America doesn't have to deal with any of the issues minority America has to deal with on a daily (yes daily) basis. This election cycle and it's results have shown us in painstaking detail that white America thought we were post racial and everyone was equal. This election showed a complete divorce from the realities of this country, whether that be because they choose to ignore it, or think a few rights movements and a President being black erases 300+ years of hatred, mistreatment, and abuse of people not born white.

People genuinely act shocked that such rhetoric could be found in a candidate running for the position of the most powerful man/woman in the country; but this isn't something brand new. It's been part of American politics for ages; minorities have complained about it for just as long. Tying race into politics isn't some new lifehack that Donald Trump discovered, it's been the pillar of the Republican party since the shuffle in the 60s. If I were to be asked to draw a venn diagram between white people and republicans who are shocked at this as if this was something new, I could almost get away with simply drawing one circle.

But what really makes it damning is the fact that so many people have been trying downplay how much racism factors into politics or completely divorce the two, and as a minority it's frustrating as hell. Not just because of this hilarious act of being shocked then trying to rationalize and divorce the racism. I get it, your sheltered viewed on racial relations in this country are forever shattered (until you stop caring in about 2 months and go back to your bubble).

My issue, frustration, and rage comes more from these same people sitting in their ivory towers playing air traffic controller telling minorities how they should feel, telling minorities to effectively stop focusing on racism/sexism/phobiatic (pretty sure this isn't a word) nature of politics. That we need to "compromise". That's the thing that triggers me/us more than anything. Being told by groups of people who we thought were on our side, that we need to compromise our due rights that said groups have always had in order to "unify". That we need to "see it from their perspective"; you do NOT get to tell us that when your rights were guaranteed the day YOUR forefathers put pen to paper after they took this land from others to establish this country. Like it's insulting, demeaning, and infuriating. We're tired of being told that demanding my rights and refusing to "compromise" only pushes people towards Trump like figures. If asking for equal rights is what pushes people towards Trump like figures then you need to question those people, not us. Our rights that are owed to us are not up for compromise or discussion. Not all opinions are equal or worth listening to; "LGBT shouldn't have equal rights because..." is not a viewpoint worth entertaining period. "Mexicans are all rapists and taking our jobs (but somehow lazy at the same time...)" is not a viewpoint worth entertaining. "Black Lives Matter" is not up for debate period, there is no "opinion" on this.

As a minority, I realise that the Republican party still uses the Southern Strategy and implicitly tie race/religion into all aspects of politics. As minorities we are acutely aware of this fact and have been. The issue is, people who are completely unaware of it, or worse didn't care because it was covert so they could justify it in their mind, are suddenly trying to tell us how to react now that it's overt again. We're past tired of your "both sides" bullshit; it wouldn't be so bad if you didn't look down on us with your smug attitudes and holier than thou approach. Fuck off with your book/movie quotes about becoming the evil you hate, stop with your false equivalency nonsense. Stop telling us to understand the racism/bigotry/sexism levied against us. We're ALWAYS the ones compromising, we're always the ones being told by you that "we'll get to your issues in due time"; being told that these other issues are important. You offer no solutions, your suggestions don't lead to unity, they're empty words you prattle to pat yourselves on the back thinking "yea I did good!"

Full on campaigns of hate are okay because many people are under the delusion that "love wins" or whatever bullshit you spout that you gleamed from movies and books. In reality it doesn't because if it did despite the fact Hillary might not have been your preferred candidate she would have won. I can respect the Republican vote more than I can respect the vote of millions of pompus "allies" who decided not to vote because she's "Crooked" or "wasn't my pick". For most minorities she wasn't there main pick either but she won, we sucked it up and voted for her because it became quite clear quite fast that the other candidate would make our lives worse. But your convictions and "conscience" was more important than our lives. You have the right to not vote, or vote Trump or third party that's fine. But you do not get to turn around and tell us to "get in line" or anything of the like. If we want to be outraged we can and will be, if that bothers you go back into the bubble you've been in your entire life where you thought we were some post racial wonderland where we walk outside and birds land on our shoulder and the milk man tips his hat to us while whistling some feel good jingle.

Racism/sexism/bigotry exists in this country realize it, accept it, stop trying to rationalize it away or divorce it from politics. You just show your stupidity and the fact you just stepped out your bubble. It always has and it has always been a pillar of the Republican platform, minorities have been only pointing this out to you for decades, stop talking down to us, start listening to us. Stop telling us to "compromise" and meet people in the middle and to not be upset with them stop telling us that it's just "talk" and we don't know if Trump really means it. Stop with your stupid fucking videogame Metal Gear Solid "he's actually going to unify us by making everyone hate him" bullshit. It's infuriating as fuck, it's not funny, it just reminds us of your privilege. We're tired of being told to stop with the "Us vs Them" mentality when we aren't the ones who created and fostered it. Crack open a book, learn the history of the country you're in. We're tired of being told that we need to "step out of our bubble" by a group of people who have never seen the outside of their bubble/comfort zone to coddle another group who has never lived a day outside of their bubble.

To quote Jesse Williams and expand it to include all minorities groups:

"The burden of the brutalized is not to comfort the bystander. That's not our job, alright; stop with all that. If you have a critique for the resistance, for our resistance, then you better have an established record of critique of our oppression. If you have no interest—if you have no interest in equal rights for us, then do not make suggestions to those who do. Sit down."

 

[Audioboxer]

Doesn't need to be amended to accomplish that. One could argue that shouting bomb in a populated area is intimidation and able to cause panic... you can then apply that to a court judgement by the supreme court by stating that when racially charged language used to intimidate that is used to cause panic in minorities and is not conducive to free speech.

But you are correct in this political climate we'll need all the luck in the galaxy to get that shit approved.

Unfortunately in terms of law, what you laid out is considered an amendment or change to the 1st amendment. I only say unfortunately because it's what means it has like a 1% chance of happening.

At this point in America intent to do harm, or intent to infringe on someones rights needs to come into play around racially charged language before government is going to step in. I don't agree it's good enough, but it's sadly how it is. I think even the Democrat party would have issue trying to pass hate speech laws. Even in government the 1st amendment is seen as largely untouchable/what America is founded upon.

As things stand it's best just to try and get a liberal forward thinking party in power, but that's what the country has failed to do. Also as I said above put pressure on private services and social media to moderate better so at least people online can get a more pleasant experience.

 

[God Dayumm]

The amount of blame placed on Clinton and the Dems is staggering.

It's not their fault that 60 million voters straight up condone bigotry. I think this election speaks a LOT more about the country than it does the Democratic party.

Nobody has to tolerate bigotry, but remember that Clintons' definition of bigotry is memes. Please next time put someone other than a grandma who is out of touch with modernity.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Unfortunately in terms of law, what you laid out is considered an amendment or change to the 1st amendment. I only say unfortunately because it's what means it has like a 1% chance of happening.

At this point in America intent to do harm, or intent to infringe on someones rights needs to come into play around racially charged language before government is going to step in. I don't agree it's good enough, but it's sadly how it is. I think even the Democrat party would have issue trying to pass hate speech laws. Even in government the 1st amendment is seen as largely untouchable/what America is founded upon.

As things stand it's best just to try and get a liberal forward thinking party in power, but that's what the country has failed to do. Also as I said above put pressure on private services and social media to moderate better so at least people online can get a more pleasant experience.

Actually this case pretty much states that a few things have to be proven to punish inflammatory language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio
In a more progressive America I think it could be challenged as it was created in the 60's. But as we both agree in the political climate we have now it would be hard to do.

But I do not think the amendment needs to be amended to cover that stuff although if it were that would definitely seal the deal over a court ruling.

 

[Audioboxer]

Actually this case pretty much states that a few things have to be proven to punish inflammatory language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio
In a more progressive America I think it could be challenged as it was created in the 60's. But as we both agree in the political climate we have now it would be hard to do.

But I do not think the amendment needs to be amended to cover that stuff although if it were that would definitely seal the deal over a court ruling.

I gave that wiki link a scan. It does still seem to be based around violence, or incitement/advocate to harm. Sadly a lot of verbal abuse that's callously thrown at minorities isn't necessarily inciting violence, but disrespect, looking down on and viewing as inferior. As much as it pains me to make that statement as if I'm defending it, I'm not. I'm saying how the law would see it.

By all means it's somewhere I'd wish America could make progress, but I unfortunately see it is an uphill battle. As much as most fuckers online misuse the term freedom of speech, they are still largely protected from government intervention or government infringing on their rights. Which is why it's so important for people to put pressure on FB/Twitter and so forth to actually moderate worth a damn. Like GAF

 

[DNAbro]

Thank for writing so eleoquntly what I was feeling about some people here on GAF.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Thank you for making this thread.

 

[poppabk]

The number of posts saying things like 'fuck white people' or 'I can't wait for white people to go extinct' indicates that bigotry is also starting to infect the left as well as the right. Without some kind of significant change, bigotry and racism may be the only viable political platform in 10 or 20 years time.

 

[Palette Swap]

To add a bit more context to some of the great posts in this thread, and if you have 25 minutes to kill, I think Ta-Nehisi Coates articulates really well the depth of said bigotry in this post-Trump talk :
https://youtu.be/9MPbVUJIQHM

(Thank you twitter !)

Yeah, I hate to be the "watch this video" guy, but Coates is always interesting to listen to.

 

[Angelus Errare]

The number of posts saying things like 'fuck white people' or 'I can't wait for white people to go extinct' indicates that bigotry is also starting to infect the left as well as the right. Without some kind of significant change, bigotry and racism may be the only viable political platform in 10 or 20 years time.

Please show us were Clinton campaigned on hurting/killing/abusing/deporting white people. Scratch that, please show me the history of this political strategy of wish harm to come to white people in any form that you make this argument for.

Stop the false equivalent; a few minorities venting their frustration us bit the same as a political party who intertwined bigotry with politics and has been since the 60s.

 

[Corronchilejano]

It is politics. It's just incredibly jaded politics.

"I don't know nor care about what's going on in the world. I just think that if there where less brown people in the US, everything would be better for me.

Also, those women were probably asking for it. All the time."

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Please show us were Clinton campaigned on hurting/killing/abusing/deporting white people. Scratch that, please show me the history of this political strategy of wish harm to come to white people in any form that you make this argument for.

Stop the false equivalent; a few minorities venting their frustration us bit the same as a political party who intertwined bigotry with politics and has been since the 60s.

Not to mention the fact that a candidate running on an anti-white platform would probably get arrested, not nominated for his party's candidate and then voted in.

Like, I get false equivalencies are fun and make you feel right for a few seconds but you can't use them in real discussions lol

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I was going to make my own thread about this to a degree but since you have already made the thread, I'll just post my thoughts in this one. Kind of long winded...sorry not sorry.

Edit: Bottom of the page, no one will ever read, GG Angelus pt 2. Kill me now

This election has actually done a great job in illustrating the completely different ideas and belief about race in America. The polling data seems to back up the feeling I'm about to express, so if you get offended...well do some soul searching.

White America and minority America view this country much differently; much of this is due to the fact that white America doesn't have to deal with any of the issues minority America has to deal with on a daily (yes daily) basis. This election cycle and it's results have shown us in painstaking detail that white America thought we were post racial and everyone was equal. This election showed a complete divorce from the realities of this country, whether that be because they choose to ignore it, or think a few rights movements and a President being black erases 300+ years of hatred, mistreatment, and abuse of people not born white.

People genuinely act shocked that such rhetoric could be found in a candidate running for the position of the most powerful man/woman in the country; but this isn't something brand new. It's been part of American politics for ages; minorities have complained about it for just as long. Tying race into politics isn't some new lifehack that Donald Trump discovered, it's been the pillar of the Republican party since the shuffle in the 60s. If I were to be asked to draw a venn diagram between white people and republicans who are shocked at this as if this was something new, I could almost get away with simply drawing one circle.

But what really makes it damning is the fact that so many people have been trying downplay how much racism factors into politics or completely divorce the two, and as a minority it's frustrating as hell. Not just because of this hilarious act of being shocked then trying to rationalize and divorce the racism. I get it, your sheltered viewed on racial relations in this country are forever shattered (until you stop caring in about 2 months and go back to your bubble).

My issue, frustration, and rage comes more from these same people sitting in their ivory towers playing air traffic controller telling minorities how they should feel, telling minorities to effectively stop focusing on racism/sexism/phobiatic (pretty sure this isn't a word) nature of politics. That we need to "compromise". That's the thing that triggers me/us more than anything. Being told by groups of people who we thought were on our side, that we need to compromise our due rights that said groups have always had in order to "unify". That we need to "see it from their perspective"; you do NOT get to tell us that when your rights were guaranteed the day YOUR forefathers put pen to paper after they took this land from others to establish this country. Like it's insulting, demeaning, and infuriating. We're tired of being told that demanding my rights and refusing to "compromise" only pushes people towards Trump like figures. If asking for equal rights is what pushes people towards Trump like figures then you need to question those people, not us. Our rights that are owed to us are not up for compromise or discussion. Not all opinions are equal or worth listening to; "LGBT shouldn't have equal rights because..." is not a viewpoint worth entertaining period. "Mexicans are all rapists and taking our jobs (but somehow lazy at the same time...)" is not a viewpoint worth entertaining. "Black Lives Matter" is not up for debate period, there is no "opinion" on this.

As a minority, I realise that the Republican party still uses the Southern Strategy and implicitly tie race/religion into all aspects of politics. As minorities we are acutely aware of this fact and have been. The issue is, people who are completely unaware of it, or worse didn't care because it was covert so they could justify it in their mind, are suddenly trying to tell us how to react now that it's overt again. We're past tired of your "both sides" bullshit; it wouldn't be so bad if you didn't look down on us with your smug attitudes and holier than thou approach. Fuck off with your book/movie quotes about becoming the evil you hate, stop with your false equivalency nonsense. Stop telling us to understand the racism/bigotry/sexism levied against us. We're ALWAYS the ones compromising, we're always the ones being told by you that "we'll get to your issues in due time"; being told that these other issues are important. You offer no solutions, your suggestions don't lead to unity, they're empty words you prattle to pat yourselves on the back thinking "yea I did good!"

Full on campaigns of hate are okay because many people are under the delusion that "love wins" or whatever bullshit you spout that you gleamed from movies and books. In reality it doesn't because if it did despite the fact Hillary might not have been your preferred candidate she would have won. I can respect the Republican vote more than I can respect the vote of millions of pompus "allies" who decided not to vote because she's "Crooked" or "wasn't my pick". For most minorities she wasn't there main pick either but she won, we sucked it up and voted for her because it became quite clear quite fast that the other candidate would make our lives worse. But your convictions and "conscience" was more important than our lives. You have the right to not vote, or vote Trump or third party that's fine. But you do not get to turn around and tell us to "get in line" or anything of the like. If we want to be outraged we can and will be, if that bothers you go back into the bubble you've been in your entire life where you thought we were some post racial wonderland where we walk outside and birds land on our shoulder and the milk man tips his hat to us while whistling some feel good jingle.

Racism/sexism/bigotry exists in this country realize it, accept it, stop trying to rationalize it away or divorce it from politics. You just show your stupidity and the fact you just stepped out your bubble. It always has and it has always been a pillar of the Republican platform, minorities have been only pointing this out to you for decades, stop talking down to us, start listening to us. Stop telling us to "compromise" and meet people in the middle and to not be upset with them stop telling us that it's just "talk" and we don't know if Trump really means it. Stop with your stupid fucking videogame Metal Gear Solid "he's actually going to unify us by making everyone hate him" bullshit. It's infuriating as fuck, it's not funny, it just reminds us of your privilege. We're tired of being told to stop with the "Us vs Them" mentality when we aren't the ones who created and fostered it. Crack open a book, learn the history of the country you're in. We're tired of being told that we need to "step out of our bubble" by a group of people who have never seen the outside of their bubble/comfort zone to coddle another group who has never lived a day outside of their bubble.

To quote Jesse Williams and expand it to include all minorities groups:

"The burden of the brutalized is not to comfort the bystander. That's not our job, alright; stop with all that. If you have a critique for the resistance, for our resistance, then you better have an established record of critique of our oppression. If you have no interest—if you have no interest in equal rights for us, then do not make suggestions to those who do. Sit down."

Excellent. And every word is true.

 

[poppabk]

Please show us were Clinton campaigned on hurting/killing/abusing/deporting white people. Scratch that, please show me the history of this political strategy of wish harm to come to white people in any form that you make this argument for.

Stop the false equivalent; a few minorities venting their frustration us bit the same as a political party who intertwined bigotry with politics and has been since the 60s.

I'm not saying they are equivalent. But it should be obvious that bigotry is entrenched on the right and on the rise on the left. As minorities slowly become the majority over the next couple of decades, appealing to bigotry in the left will become a viable strategy for election, and chances are someone will use it.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I'm not saying they are equivalent. But it should be obvious that bigotry is entrenched on the right and on the rise on the left. As minorities slowly become the majority over the next couple of decades, appealing to bigotry in the left will become a viable strategy for election, and chances are someone will use it.

Here's the thing I think it is going to cause some discomfort in America...Minority America for the most part really don't give a fuck about white people. We've never been trying to remove your rights, we generally just want to be treated as equals and left alone. You're not seeing bigotry on the rise, you're seeing minorities being fed up with a sizable portion of America actively trying to keep them "in check" and deny them rights, and another sizeable portion of America fine with it.

And this "rise of the colored people" fantasy has been the fuel for conservative bullshit for 300+ years.

• Gotta keep the natives in check or they might kill us all for killing them!
• Gotta keep the blacks as slaves because they might rebel and enslave us!
• Gotta keep women from voting because they might vote to enslave men!
• Gotta keep blacks as second class citizens because they might vote to make us second class citizens!
• Gotta keep the Japanese American citizens caged because if we don't they'll do it to us and let Japan in!
• Gotta keep discriminating against blacks in business, housing, school because if we don't they'll accumulate power and do it to us!
• Gotta keep the gays in line, because if we don't they'll make us get gay married by force!

And so forth

 

[DangerMouse]

Well said Angelus Errare.

Bigotry isn't politics but exploiting the repercussions of bigotry for political favor is as old as time.

Too many people treat elections like football games to be won. Not voting because you don't care for either "team" or because they didn't excite you enough are ridiculous reasons but we accept them. You vote for the person whose politics and platform line up most with yours of the two (yes two, blame first past the post) because they will affect all Americans for the foreseeable future. It's the height of entitlement and selfishness to not vote because a candidate didn't do enough to "win you over". Voting is a right and a responsibility and a duty, not the Super Bowl.

This is a fantastic post too.

 

[roknin]

I was going to make my own thread about this to a degree but since you have already made the thread, I'll just post my thoughts in this one. Kind of long winded...sorry not sorry.

Edit: Bottom of the page, no one will ever read, GG Angelus pt 2. Kill me now

This election has actually done a great job in illustrating the completely different ideas and belief about race in America. The polling data seems to back up the feeling I'm about to express, so if you get offended...well do some soul searching.

White America and minority America view this country much differently; much of this is due to the fact that white America doesn't have to deal with any of the issues minority America has to deal with on a daily (yes daily) basis. This election cycle and it's results have shown us in painstaking detail that white America thought we were post racial and everyone was equal. This election showed a complete divorce from the realities of this country, whether that be because they choose to ignore it, or think a few rights movements and a President being black erases 300+ years of hatred, mistreatment, and abuse of people not born white.

People genuinely act shocked that such rhetoric could be found in a candidate running for the position of the most powerful man/woman in the country; but this isn't something brand new. It's been part of American politics for ages; minorities have complained about it for just as long. Tying race into politics isn't some new lifehack that Donald Trump discovered, it's been the pillar of the Republican party since the shuffle in the 60s. If I were to be asked to draw a venn diagram between white people and republicans who are shocked at this as if this was something new, I could almost get away with simply drawing one circle.

But what really makes it damning is the fact that so many people have been trying downplay how much racism factors into politics or completely divorce the two, and as a minority it's frustrating as hell. Not just because of this hilarious act of being shocked then trying to rationalize and divorce the racism. I get it, your sheltered viewed on racial relations in this country are forever shattered (until you stop caring in about 2 months and go back to your bubble).

My issue, frustration, and rage comes more from these same people sitting in their ivory towers playing air traffic controller telling minorities how they should feel, telling minorities to effectively stop focusing on racism/sexism/phobiatic (pretty sure this isn't a word) nature of politics. That we need to "compromise". That's the thing that triggers me/us more than anything. Being told by groups of people who we thought were on our side, that we need to compromise our due rights that said groups have always had in order to "unify". That we need to "see it from their perspective"; you do NOT get to tell us that when your rights were guaranteed the day YOUR forefathers put pen to paper after they took this land from others to establish this country. Like it's insulting, demeaning, and infuriating. We're tired of being told that demanding my rights and refusing to "compromise" only pushes people towards Trump like figures. If asking for equal rights is what pushes people towards Trump like figures then you need to question those people, not us. Our rights that are owed to us are not up for compromise or discussion. Not all opinions are equal or worth listening to; "LGBT shouldn't have equal rights because..." is not a viewpoint worth entertaining period. "Mexicans are all rapists and taking our jobs (but somehow lazy at the same time...)" is not a viewpoint worth entertaining. "Black Lives Matter" is not up for debate period, there is no "opinion" on this.

As a minority, I realise that the Republican party still uses the Southern Strategy and implicitly tie race/religion into all aspects of politics. As minorities we are acutely aware of this fact and have been. The issue is, people who are completely unaware of it, or worse didn't care because it was covert so they could justify it in their mind, are suddenly trying to tell us how to react now that it's overt again. We're past tired of your "both sides" bullshit; it wouldn't be so bad if you didn't look down on us with your smug attitudes and holier than thou approach. Fuck off with your book/movie quotes about becoming the evil you hate, stop with your false equivalency nonsense. Stop telling us to understand the racism/bigotry/sexism levied against us. We're ALWAYS the ones compromising, we're always the ones being told by you that "we'll get to your issues in due time"; being told that these other issues are important. You offer no solutions, your suggestions don't lead to unity, they're empty words you prattle to pat yourselves on the back thinking "yea I did good!"

Full on campaigns of hate are okay because many people are under the delusion that "love wins" or whatever bullshit you spout that you gleamed from movies and books. In reality it doesn't because if it did despite the fact Hillary might not have been your preferred candidate she would have won. I can respect the Republican vote more than I can respect the vote of millions of pompus "allies" who decided not to vote because she's "Crooked" or "wasn't my pick". For most minorities she wasn't there main pick either but she won, we sucked it up and voted for her because it became quite clear quite fast that the other candidate would make our lives worse. But your convictions and "conscience" was more important than our lives. You have the right to not vote, or vote Trump or third party that's fine. But you do not get to turn around and tell us to "get in line" or anything of the like. If we want to be outraged we can and will be, if that bothers you go back into the bubble you've been in your entire life where you thought we were some post racial wonderland where we walk outside and birds land on our shoulder and the milk man tips his hat to us while whistling some feel good jingle.

Racism/sexism/bigotry exists in this country realize it, accept it, stop trying to rationalize it away or divorce it from politics. You just show your stupidity and the fact you just stepped out your bubble. It always has and it has always been a pillar of the Republican platform, minorities have been only pointing this out to you for decades, stop talking down to us, start listening to us. Stop telling us to "compromise" and meet people in the middle and to not be upset with them stop telling us that it's just "talk" and we don't know if Trump really means it. Stop with your stupid fucking videogame Metal Gear Solid "he's actually going to unify us by making everyone hate him" bullshit. It's infuriating as fuck, it's not funny, it just reminds us of your privilege. We're tired of being told to stop with the "Us vs Them" mentality when we aren't the ones who created and fostered it. Crack open a book, learn the history of the country you're in. We're tired of being told that we need to "step out of our bubble" by a group of people who have never seen the outside of their bubble/comfort zone to coddle another group who has never lived a day outside of their bubble.

To quote Jesse Williams and expand it to include all minorities groups:

"The burden of the brutalized is not to comfort the bystander. That's not our job, alright; stop with all that. If you have a critique for the resistance, for our resistance, then you better have an established record of critique of our oppression. If you have no interest—if you have no interest in equal rights for us, then do not make suggestions to those who do. Sit down."

I've wanted to put this into words for people for a long damn time. You nailed it. Thank you.

This post should be required reading.

 

[Guileless]

Just exactly how do you propose to establish a universal moral code when moral relativism is all that secular society believes in?

This thread is like the bizarro version of Christian preachers railing at same sex marriage after Obergefell (which Trump said last night he was not going to touch). Not everyone shares your moral convictions. Keep religion out of politics.

 

[IISANDERII]

Alright GAF. Let's get something straight right now.

Yes, we're in the aftermath of a devastating political loss, and yes, we need to review the faulty trains of thought and action that led us here. If nothing else, I'm happy to see both progressives and some members of the party willing to have this debate among themselves. We're at least trying to come to terms with this and move on towards a solution, and the seeming willingness to self-correct is a salve on a fresh wound.

However.

The one thing that is not on the table for discussion, what is not up for debate, what is not a simple "political difference of opinion" is my fucking worth as a human being due to the way I was born.

Now I don't know if it's just secret Trump supporters crawling from out of the woodwork to revel in their victory through concern trolling, or if it's well-meaning yet scared progressives who are onto the idea that we need to burn down literally everything we stand for to properly figure out what happened, who are pushing this silly-ass notion that blatant (and I mean "Fuck niggers" kind of blatant) racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and Islamophobia are just cute little quirks in thought like thinking vanilla ice cream is somehow better than chocolate. Frankly, I don't give a good god damn who is responsible. As progressives, we are not- absolutely not- about to push even a quark-sized insinuation that these thoughts are harmless.

This single axiom, that the equality of all human beings on the basis of their immutable qualities is self-evident is, to me, the very foundation of modern progressive thinking, just like "hey, we shouldn't snap the necks of newborns" is a foundation thought of what it is to just be a normal person. Equality is not questionable. I don't care if your lovely Mother Maggie Mae or your Best Friend Forever since kindergarten harbors any thoughts that run contrary to this. You need to deal with that the way you feel best, just like some of us are going to deal with it by cutting these people out of our lives if need be.

"But you're just forming an echo chamber by cutting people off!"

Yes. I want an echo chamber of friends who at the very least believe that I am not inherently more violent than they are just because I'm black. That doesn't mean that it's impossible to have differences in opinion over the election or politics, even if all of the people involved trend left-leaning. But it does mean that there is an establishment of basic human respect. After a lively debate about what we need to do regarding Syria, me and my best friend can still come back immediately and despair about the quasi-libertarian racist crap that plagues Imgur and Reddit. That is still a healthy relationship.

Seriously GAF. Cut it out with trying to normalize bigotry as "just another opinion". Stop trying to repackage and rebrand bigotry as just "a simple political opinion." Stop downplaying the harm and evil this thinking leads to. Don't shirk back into the comfortable veil of moderate apathy just because a lot of y'all didn't show up to even stop Trump in the first place. Ultimately, don't abandon the one fucking shred of dignity you have left.

Equality has been demoted, corroded and eroded for decades. For too many people, the tipping point was the election of a figurehead. In my opinion, it should've been long before that.

 

[A Link to the Past]

The number of posts saying things like 'fuck white people' or 'I can't wait for white people to go extinct' indicates that bigotry is also starting to infect the left as well as the right. Without some kind of significant change, bigotry and racism may be the only viable political platform in 10 or 20 years time.

Except "fuck white people" cannot conceivably be a party platform in our lifetime, and likely won't even in this century if at all.

"Fuck brown people" has been the conservative platform for longer than anyone's been alive.