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Bioshock Infinite should have been ICO + Mirrors Edge

F

FloatOn

Member
I'll keep this spoiler free but I'll tell you why this game drops the ball for me and how it could have been so much more. This is yet another thread hanging on the coat tails of the now famous "Bioshock Infinite shouldn't have been a shooter".

Disclaimer: I absolutely adore the game. The art/setting/story is one of the best I've played. The gameplay itself is what I take issue with and I'm hoping this thread can be a discussion of just that.

On the one hand, I love the standard FPS campaign of shoot waves of bad guys, experience some story and roll credits. But for a game that is as unique as Bioshock Inifinite, the gameplay itself deserves so much more than that. This is where the subject line comes in.

ICO and Bioshock Infinite both share the idea of rescuing a companion. In Bioshock Elizabeth is little more than an item collector and a means to push the story along. In ICO Yorda is someone that you must defend. In the midst of the bombast of Bioshock I never feared for Elizabeth
aside for the time she runs away for a brief moment
, the enemies seem to ignore her and come only after me. This is a huge missed opportunity. The game could have scaled back much of the meaningless shooting sequences had there been time devoted to physically getting yourself and your companion through the hostile environment through other (perhaps puzzle solving) means. This leads me to my second point of contention.

Through the high flying adventure of Bioshock Infinite I never felt like falling to my death was an option. This happened all too often in Mirrors Edge for me and I loved it. Physically moving at top speed in Mirrors Edge was a fantastic experience and with the Sky Hook in Bioshock Infinite we had shades of that but the danger simply wasn't there. Jumping from building to building, rail to rail should have been a scary proposition, but it wasn't, it just felt like a natural thing to do because of well it worked. Perhaps too well. The enemy encounters in Mirrors Edge were far less frequent but there were some opportunities to put the hurt on bad guys and if you did decide to go the combat route it felt like you achieved something rather than just spraying bullets into moving targets.

TL;DR - I'm not saying combat should have been removed completely or the game changed into a different genre altogether. I am saying that the combat should have been scaled back to allow for other gameplay experiences to shine though.

It's nice to want things.
 
RealityExists said:
I'll keep this spoiler free but I'll tell you why this game drops the ball for me and how it could have been so much more. This is yet another thread hanging on the coat tails of the now famous "Bioshock Infinite shouldn't have been a shooter".

Disclaimer: I absolutely adore the game. The art/setting/story is one of the best I've played. The gameplay itself is what I take issue with and I'm hoping this thread can be a discussion of just that.

On the one hand, I love the standard FPS campaign of shoot waves of bad guys, experience some story and roll credits. But for a game that is as unique as Bioshock Inifinite, the gameplay itself deserves so much more than that. This is where the subject line comes in.

ICO and Bioshock Infinite both share the idea of rescuing a companion. In Bioshock Elizabeth is little more than an item collector and a means to push the story along. In ICO Yorda is someone that you must defend. In the midst of the bombast of Bioshock I never feared for Elizabeth
aside for the time she runs away for a brief moment
, the enemies seem to ignore her and come only after me. This is a huge missed opportunity. The game could have scaled back much of the meaningless shooting sequences had there been time devoted to physically getting yourself and your companion through the hostile environment. This leads me to my second point of contention.

Through the high flying adventure of Bioshock Infinite I never felt like falling to my death was an option. This happened all too often in Mirrors Edge for me and I loved it. Physically moving at top speed in Mirrors Edge was a fantastic experience and with the Sky Hook in Bioshock Infinite we had shades of that but the danger simply wasn't there. Jumping from building to building, rail to rail should have been a scary proposition, but it wasn't, it just felt like a natural thing to do because of well it worked. Perhaps too well. The enemy encounters in Mirrors Edge were far less frequent but there were some opportunities to put the hurt on bad guys and if you did decide to go the combat route it felt like you achieved something rather than just spraying bullets into moving targets.

TL;DR - I'm not saying combat should have been removed completely or the game changed into a different genre altogether. I am saying that the combat should have been scaled back to allow for other gameplay experiences to shine though.

It's nice to want things.
Click to expand...

Cool idea.
 
Totally agreed. Minus the skylines, the gameplay was the weakest part about Infinite. Like Evilore said, it "shouldn't be a shooter".
 
Look I'm one of the people who really disliked the gameplay and the heavy shooter focus but you basically want it to be an actual giant escort quest, and that's something I thought no one wanted. Elizabeth's role in the gameplay was fine.
 
Bioshock Infinite should have been whatever the hell Ken Levine wanted it to be, and it is. It's an outstanding achievement as is, and works just fine as a shooter.
 
RealityExists said:
ICO and Bioshock Infinite both share the idea of rescuing a companion. In Bioshock Elizabeth is little more than an item collector and a means to push the story along. In ICO Yorda is someone that you must defend. In the midst of the bombast of Bioshock I never feared for Elizabeth
aside for the time she runs away for a brief moment
, the enemies seem to ignore her and come only after me. This is a huge missed opportunity.
Click to expand...
No. I'm glad that this didn't dig up that arguably sexist trope. And I think the point was that Elizabeth—a female character—had some agency to herself and you—a man—weren't constantly trying to save her. I imagine Levine would probably argue that it is a regressive idea to insert into the game.
 
Derrick01 said:
Look I'm one of the people who really disliked the gameplay and the heavy shooter focus but you basically want it to be an actual giant escort quest, and that's something I thought no one wanted. Elizabeth's role in the gameplay was fine.
Click to expand...

From a narrative perspective the game already is a giant escort quest. What I want is for the person I'm protecting to actually matter in terms of the gameplay itself.
 
Tobor said:
Bioshock Infinite should have been whatever the hell Ken Levine wanted it to be, and it is. It's an outstanding achievement as is, and works just fine as a shooter.
Click to expand...
Took the words out of my mouth. 3/4 of my way through my second playthrough and I wouldn't change much at all.
 
Tobor said:
Bioshock Infinite should have been whatever the hell Ken Levine wanted it to be, and it is. It's an outstanding achievement as is, and works just fine as a shooter.
Click to expand...
Well, I bet the beginning and ending is what Ken Levine wanted it to be. The middle? With how much content was constantly stripped, redone, or switched around? Who knows. But thankfully it turned out pretty great.

If I had my way, I'd just give it System Shock 1's gameplay systems. Give me an OS within an OS for a UI, please. >:D
 
Tobor said:
Bioshock Infinite should have been whatever the hell Ken Levine wanted it to be, and it is. It's an outstanding achievement as is, and works just fine as a shooter.
Click to expand...

It was a great movie and a terrible game.
 
Tobor said:
Bioshock Infinite should have been whatever the hell Ken Levine wanted it to be, and it is. It's an outstanding achievement as is, and works just fine as a shooter.
Click to expand...

yes. One of my top 3 games this generation easily, I'm not gonna tell him how I think it should be done.
 
Because we just don't have enough escort missions with weak little girls who can't do anything until big action hero guy saves her.

Personally, I'm glad I didn't have to keep looking after Elizabeth, like a little pet. I detested that so strongly about Ico, literally having to drag this girl everywhere, who couldn't defend herself, or sometimes even cross decent gaps without me assisting her.
 
I think the gameplay let the game down. I don't think wave after wave after wave of very similar/the same enemies did the game justice. Less enemies with more thought required to defeat each would have been better, in my opinion.
 
I find the narrative and world would be best expressed through the lens of a cart racer.

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There wasn't a single battle in this game I didn't try running away from. I hate that it forced you to fight many of them
 
cuyahoga said:
No. I'm glad that this didn't dig up that arguably sexist trope. And I think the point was that Elizabeth—a female character—had some agency to herself and you—a man—weren't constantly trying to save her. I imagine Levine would probably argue that it is a regressive idea to insert into the game.
Click to expand...

This would be fine if we ever got a chance to see her fight back herself. The game from the start tasks you with rescuing her and you do that by shooting lots and lots of bad guys. If that's sexist perhaps you should have played a different game.

If this game went more of the ICO route Elizabeth could have assisted you in more significant ways than just picking locks or throwing items at you.
 
I kinda wished it had multiplayer. It's extremely obvious that it was there at one point, and Bioshock 2's multiplayer was actually really awesome.

And fuckin' deathmatch with skyhooks would've been sweeeeeeet.
 
Tobor said:
Bioshock Infinite should have been whatever the hell Ken Levine wanted it to be, and it is. It's an outstanding achievement as is, and works just fine as a shooter.
Click to expand...

I agree with the latter part but even if I didn't the bolded part is the most important to me. I believe in videogames as a creative process and I think people should make the games that they want. Unless 2K games had Ken at gunpoint telling him to make a shooter - I don't feel like it's my place to question his artistic vision. I can understand saying "I wish there was a game like bioshock but also added X, Y and Z. But to say a person should change their art to serve you is really odd to me. I couldn't imagine going up to a painter and saying "That tree should have been a house" or whatever. Nor do I like when people get upset with bands for changing their sounds (i can understand not liking the sound, but getting mad for doing what they enjoy...?) or for movie directors for changing genres or general tone between films.


Except when evilore does it. Because I don't want to be banned.
 
I thought the big boss already did a thread on this. But I didn't read it, so, never mind.

Tobor said:
Bioshock Infinite should have been whatever the hell Ken Levine wanted it to be, and it is. It's an outstanding achievement as is, and works just fine as a shooter.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

I think Infinite is actually a pretty fantastic shooter. Honestly, Ico + Mirror's Edge might not have sold very well at all, which sucks, but is true I think. That said, more platforming/alternate/unique gameplay stuff would have been great as you say. But it is a solid shooter on its own.
 
NotTheGuyYouKill said:
I thought the big boss already did a thread on this. But I didn't read it, so, never mind.

I think Infinite is actually a pretty fantastic shooter. Honestly, Ico + Mirror's Edge might not have sold very well at all, which sucks, but is true I think. That said, more platforming/alternate/unique gameplay stuff would have been great as you say. But it is a solid shooter on its own.
Click to expand...

The big boss simply stated what it shouldn't have been. This thread is about what it should have been instead.

Now to your second point, it's a very average FPS campaign in terms of actual gameplay, strictly talking gameplay I think Bulletstorm outclassed it, I mean bucking bronco/undertow were basically a different type of leash and the weapons in Bulletstorm were much more interesting to use.

The game really was amazing in terms of art and story though.
 
Can we not agree that Bioshock Infinite was an excellent game while also having a frank discussion of its flaws? There were problems with the narrative, mechanics, and how they were integrated into a singular experience. The game is an achievement of the medium, but we can still aim higher.
 
SalsaShark said:
yeah, this is getting silly


it's a fantastic game as it is and none of it felt out of place or wasted potential to me, at all.
Click to expand...

I just think that for a game as unique as this in so many other ways it deserves something more than the format that half life created all those years ago.

I'm glad people enjoyed it. I know I did. I just think it could have been something so much more.
 
Remachinate said:
Can we not agree that Bioshock Infinite was an excellent game while also having a frank discussion of its flaws? There were problems with the narrative, mechanics, and how they were integrated into a singular experience. The game is an achievement of the medium, but we can still aim higher.
Click to expand...

...it just came out.
 
RealityExists said:
The big boss simply stated what it shouldn't have been. This thread is about what it should have been instead.

Now to your second point, it's a very average FPS campaign in terms of actual gameplay, strictly talking gameplay I think Bulletstorm outclassed it, I mean bucking bronco/undertow were basically a different type of leash and the weapons in Bulletstorm were much more interesting to use.

The game really was amazing in terms of art and story though.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I'm just an easily satisfied shooter fan. Bulletstorm is definitely a far superior shooter, but Infinite has a pretty fantastic and fun gameplay system. Skylines, vigors, and the guns are super fun.

Definitely shines in art design and story.
 
Playing it on hard really shows off just how awesome the combat can be. There really is nothing quite like using the sky rails, just such an exhilarating experience. I think people would have been happier if they cut down on the number of regular encounters by half and just expanded on designing areas which make use of the sky rails.
 
I'm perfectly happy with the way the game turned out, but I would have preferred a Deus Ex/RPG style way of interacting with this world and its people (not ICO, what the fuck). I kind of felt like I should have been asking people for quests and stuff when I first got there, but they just kind of stared at me. But whatever, great game and once I got into the groove and acclimated myself to the vigors and general rhythm of the combat, it was easy to just take it as it was.
 
The shooting part (combined with the middle third which was fucking pointless) was well done for a shooter but something I was happy to be done with after each major encounter. Another game where the gameplay was the part I was least interested in. It could have been a exploration game where I killed a half dozen people via quick time events and I would have enjoyed it just as much.
 
This is getting nuts.

Bioshock Infinite is already ten times better than most every other game I've played--yet you guys wanna change it further? Lol
 
As far as the combat goes, I have the same complaint about it as the other Bioshock games.

The salt meter should have been a constantly recharging meter or ditched for infinite use. The combat is the most fun when you are just wildly using the powers. It is the big thing the series has over other shooters as far as combat and making it a limited resource really limits how crazy you can go.

I started a replay using a trainer to give me unlimited salts and it became an absolute blast to just wreck the combat encounters.

Sure the game would need to be rebalanced, but it would be worth it.
 
RealityExists said:
ICO and Bioshock Infinite both share the idea of rescuing a companion. In Bioshock Elizabeth is little more than an item collector and a means to push the story along. In ICO Yorda is someone that you must defend. In the midst of the bombast of Bioshock I never feared for Elizabeth
aside for the time she runs away for a brief moment
, the enemies seem to ignore her and come only after me.
Click to expand...

There's actually a voxophone/audio diary early on that says (minor spoilers, so minor it's not even anything specific but better safe than sorry)
that the people that are after you have been warned not to hurt/touch Elizabeth, because Comstock's told them that if any harm comes to her they'll be killed.
So it makes sense in context of the game why it's not specifically an escort mission and why you don't have to "protect" her in the usual sense.

I know you're explaining missed opportunities and what-not, but I think in the context of the story it fits better that you DON'T have to worry about Elizabeth.
 
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