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[Alpha-Bromega]

LOL Bioware, sometimes i guess diarrhea catches us all unaware

 

[bonesmccoy]

Maybe the problem is just that they tied it too closely to DA:O.

Take Relic's approach, for example. They've created a wonderfully popular RTS series in Dawn of War, and now taken the time to expand into the 3rd Person Action genre with Space Marine. Had Relic called it 'Dawn of War 3' or 'Dawn of War: Space Marine', people would have been rightly upset and shunned the game.

BioWare should have called this something like 'Hawke: A Dragon Age Tale' or something like that - given it a title that establishes the connection to the parent franchise and simultaneously establishes it as a separate and wholly different kind of game.

 

[Emitan]

Maybe the problem is just that they tied it too closely to DA:O.

Take Relic's approach, for example. They've created a wonderfully popular RTS series in Dawn of War, and now taken the time to expand into the 3rd Person Action genre with Space Marine. Had Relic called it 'Dawn of War 3' or 'Dawn of War: Space Marine', people would have been rightly upset and shunned the game.

BioWare should have called this something like 'Hawke: A Dragon Age Tale' or something like that - given it a title that establishes the connection to the parent franchise and simultaneously establishes it as a separate and wholly different kind of game.

But that would require Bioware acting rationally when we know they made the decent into madness years ago.

 

[Brandon F]

Even in BG1, there were so many unique touches to the environments and there was a real "sense of place". Even if you were wandering through many similar looking forests, over here there was a octagonal Wizard's house. Over there were some wyvern nests. Maybe a bandit camp or the Xvart town.

The only time the re-use of assets really dragged the game down a bit was with the mines. There was too much time spent in them and they all looked the same. But you still had the rest of the world. The Gnoll Fortress. Beregost. Nashkel. And above all, Baldur's Gate itself, which was a large and fully detailed city.

I don't at all disagree(except for the city of Baldur's Gate, that place is just ripe full of copy/paste outside of a few building locations; Athkatla in BGII however....just a night and day difference).

DA2 was far worse though, but a closer comparison could be made for the variety in encounters. In BG1, you can only fight so many gibberlings, gnolls, and wolves... It doesn't excuse DA2's awful 'spawning' design though....and as you accurately said, those gnolls, wolves, and gibberlings actually 'populated' the world at large.

But really it's an unfair comparison I'm even making given the sheer scope of Bioware development in 1998 compared to 2011. Again, its more of an embarrassment.

I'll never expect Bioware to own up to DA2 being 'less than the quality standard', but one hopes moving forward this backlash will reinvigorate the teams, and EA as a publisher, to ensure more care goes into releases. Doubtful when the bottom line is the priority.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Yeah, there's a quote from well before the EA buyout where they talk about the studio debating about whether or not GTA: San Andreas was an RPG or not.

Clearly, the side who considered it one won.

That's not even the problem. I think there's plenty of merit in saying "games should be more accessible and shorter". I love my hardcore tactical RPG that takes 50 hours to beat, but I can see where they're coming from.

The problem is the actual games. Apparently Bioware themselves believe that making games more accessible means making them more terrible.

I mean if they wanted the GTA audience, why not try for some GTA quality?

 

[Derrick01]

The 1990s were a long time ago.

Hey 90s nostalgia is all the rage now!

 

[bonesmccoy]

But that would require Bioware acting rationally when we know they made the decent into madness years ago.

Lol, well at least we still have Mass Effect. They haven't completely ruined that yet.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Maybe the problem is just that they tied it too closely to DA:O.

Take Relic's approach, for example. They've created a wonderfully popular RTS series in Dawn of War, and now taken the time to expand into the 3rd Person Action genre with Space Marine.

Actually, an even better example is what Relic did with Dawn of War 2. They made it more accessible. They "dumbed it down" by removing base-building. They made it more action-packed.

And guess what? Because they actually put in the effort and polish and quality to make it work, and designed the game well, Dawn of War 2 is a BETTER game than DoW1.

 

[Rolf NB]

In a perfect world, Sega would have bought Bioware and renamed them "Team Sonic West".

Alas, instead we are here, where Bioware continues to make dating sims without furries.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Yeah, let's not heap everything on EA, here. Bioware is doing this sort of thing because they want to - they're not tragic victims of circumstance.

Moreover, if Bioware didn't want to do things this way, the doctors have more than enough power within EA to change it.

They willingly went along with the 15-month DA2 plan because they felt that's where their games needed to go - quick content releases that don't spend a long time polishing.

 

[Emitan]

Lol, well at least we still have Mass Effect. They haven't completely ruined that yet.

The style and tone of Mass Effect basically did a 180 from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 2. All the uniqueness and charm of ME died in 2 and I think ME3 is going to be exactly like ME2 from what I've seen.

 

[Pinko Marx]

The style and tone of Mass Effect basically did a 180 from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 2. All the uniqueness and charm of ME died in 2 and I think ME3 is going to be exactly like ME2 from what I've seen.

What do you mean by charm.

 

[Emitan]

What do you mean by charm.

It went from grand space opera which isn't something seen very often in games to another dark and gritty shooter. It lost it's identity. It went from worlds that felt like real places to sparse corridors. From a fully realized world to a backdrop for action.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

It went from grand space opera which isn't something seen very often in games to another dark and gritty shooter. It lost it's identity. It went from worlds that felt like real places to sparse corridors. From a fully realized world to a backdrop for action.

The comparison I always hear is from Star Trek to J.J Abrams Presents Star Trek.

Both good, but decidedly different.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

It went from grand space opera which isn't something seen very often in games to another dark and gritty shooter. It lost it's identity. It went from worlds that felt like real places to sparse corridors. From a fully realized world to a backdrop for action.

pretttty much, Mass Effect 1 was certainly very unique and charm is a great word for the lure the game had

 

[The Technomancer]

The style and tone of Mass Effect basically did a 180 from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 2. All the uniqueness and charm of ME died in 2 and I think ME3 is going to be exactly like ME2 from what I've seen.

I wouldn't call it a 180. More like there was a clear focus change.

pretttty much, Mass Effect 1 was certainly very unique and charm is a great word for the lure the game had

Mass Effect had an interesting tone and style, and one that's not often seen in video games (closer to Star Trek then Halo) but it was hardly unique.

 

[bonesmccoy]

Actually, an even better example is what Relic did with Dawn of War 2. They made it more accessible. They "dumbed it down" by removing base-building. They made it more action-packed.

Absolutely!

You could even toss DOW: Retribution into the mix. The streamlined the experience even more so than what they accomplished in DOW2, and enhanced the online elements. But rather than marketing it as a whole new game, they were clear that it was an expansion. For me that shows a level of honesty with their fan base that BW just isn't interested in.

 

[Emitan]

The comparison I always hear is from Star Trek to J.J Abrams Presents Star Trek.

Both good, but decidedly different.

I'd agree with that, but the problem with Mass Effect is that I feel like I can get the ME2 experience from several other games, while ME1 was unique. I can't really get tje J.J. Abrams Star Trek anywhere else, so although it's not what I really wanted as a Star Trek fan, it's still good.

 

[Brandon F]

It went from grand space opera which isn't something seen very often in games to another dark and gritty shooter. It lost it's identity. It went from worlds that felt like real places to sparse corridors. From a fully realized world to a backdrop for action.

The Citadel was smaller in ME2, and the overarching plot felt ineffectual, but outside of that they were quite similar.

I do wish Mako exploring was improved rather than removed entirely in favor of mineral clicking though.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Absolutely!

You could even toss DOW: Retribution into the mix. The streamlined the experience even more so than what they accomplished in DOW2, and enhanced the online elements. But rather than marketing it as a whole new game, they were clear that it was an expansion. For me that shows a level of honesty with their fan base that BW just isn't interested in.

Relic is content to just make sweet games. They can make a game more accessible and still have it be a sweet game. Bioware's not content with that, and that's really the difference. They want to talk big and deliver small.

Also Bioware's marketing department is fucking terrible. One of the worst in the gaming industry.

 

[diffusionx]

It went from grand space opera which isn't something seen very often in games to another dark and gritty shooter. It lost it's identity. It went from worlds that felt like real places to sparse corridors. From a fully realized world to a backdrop for action.

I'm not seeing what you saw in ME1. ME1 had lots of planets yes but most of them were boring. ME1 had lots of sidequests but most of them were terrible. ME2 was much better on that actually. ME1's main missions were similar to ME2's.

The only real step backwards in terms of location was the Citadel. Which hurt, but the better sidequests helped make up for that. The thing that made ME1 feel "real" was the codex stuff and backstory, which ME2 had too, but I guess nobody read all that stuff twice. I didn't.

I like what Bioware did with ME2, but I dont' think they should do it for everything.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

it's not the square footage of the areas that matter, Mass Effect was considerably different in tone and atmosphere

 

[ReaperXL7]

The style and tone of Mass Effect basically did a 180 from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 2. All the uniqueness and charm of ME died in 2 and I think ME3 is going to be exactly like ME2 from what I've seen.

But ME3 will have turret sequences! sure that has to count for something!

 

[Frankenstrat]

look at what they're doing to ssx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5scm_58USc

uh, what? SSX might be one of the few examples of developers really listening to fan response and restructuring various elements. Unless this was planned the entire time. Either way, definitely not what happened with DA2.

 

[Dennis]

It went from grand space opera which isn't something seen very often in games to another dark and gritty shooter. It lost it's identity. It went from worlds that felt like real places to sparse corridors. From a fully realized world to a backdrop for action.

Very true. And of course Bioware knows very well that it is true.

But they believed (mistakenly) that destroying the soul of Mass Effect by making it something else would make them more money.

Its about money.

"Whats gonna sell, whats gonna sell!" - grimdark corridor shooter.

They were wrong of course but admitting that they fucked the soul of the franchise to little effect would be humiliating.

 

[Lostconfused]

Its about money.

"Whats gonna sell, whats gonna sell!" - grimdark corridor shooter.

They were wrong of course but admitting that they fucked the soul of the franchise to little effect would be humiliating.

That's why they are doubling down on mass effect 3.

 

[K.Sabot]

Bioware starting to remind me of Dyack.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Bioware starting to remind me of Dyack.

but can we ban Bioware from game making

 

[Deified Data]

but can we ban Bioware from game making

Nothing is impossible. How can it be done?

 

[K.Sabot]

but can we ban Bioware from game making

For.

 

[Emitan]

But ME3 will have turret sequences! sure that has to count for something!

 

[odin toelust]

Very true. And of course Bioware knows very well that it is true.

But they believed (mistakenly) that destroying the soul of Mass Effect by making it something else would make them more money.

Its about money.

"Whats gonna sell, whats gonna sell!" - grimdark corridor shooter.

They were wrong of course but admitting that they fucked the soul of the franchise to little effect would be humiliating.

how was it a mistake to strip the soul from ME1 from a bottom line perspective? Was ME2 not more financially successful than ME1?

 

[famousmortimer]

I was caught off guard by how much it sucked so I guess me and Bioware have something in common.

 

[inky]

So, how long till Mass Effect starts making Call of Duty numbers? I know, right... what about Halo numbers? LOL, Gears of War 3 numbers? Anyone?

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

how was it a mistake to strip the soul from ME1 from a bottom line perspective? Was ME2 not more financially successful than ME1?

it's a business concept that escapes me but; catering to a dedicated niche creates quality customers, one person who buys your product 5 times is better than 5 people who buy it once and never again. Bioware lost devoted fans and gained people who couldn't give one shit what a Bio what is

 

[Emitan]

So, how long till Mass Effect starts making Call of Duty numbers? I know, right... what about Halo numbers? LOL, Gears of War 3 numbers? Anyone?

As of December 2010 they've sold 7 million for both games. LOL.

 

[Lostconfused]

how was it a mistake to strip the soul from ME1 from a bottom line perspective? Was ME2 not more financially successful than ME1?

It got a lot of critical aclaim but it did't actually sell that well. Certainly nothing like gears of war or probably even Bioshock.

 

[MattKeil]

Except it dumbed down equipment, dumbed down the story--er--wait, instead of "dumbed down" it COMPLETELY IGNORED MASS EFFECT 1.

Utter bullshit. Dozens of things you did in ME1 are referenced or have influence on events in ME2. It's one of the most impressive aspects of the game.

You can play ME1 and skip to 3 because 2 wasn't important at all in the "trilogy" aspect other than

Spoiler

LOL HUMAN SKIN REAPERS

.

Again, wrong. Shepard's entire situation is different due to ME2. His allegiances are different (and entirely dependent on player choice), his status in the eyes of the galactic population is different (again, determined by the player), and vastly more is now known about Cerberus, which was nothing but a handy antagonist for sidequests in ME1. We know more about the Reapers' methods, we know the identity of the Collectors (certainly significant in relation to ME1's final third). The only way to make the claim your making is to willfully ignore the story completely.

Choices from ME1 (sup,

Spoiler

saving Wrex

?) DID NOT MATTER outside of a five minute cameo in ME2.

What should they do, write two entirely different game stories and cram them on the same disc? There were plenty of differences in ME2 if you made opposing decisions in ME1. And the

Spoiler

life or death of Wrex

will be an even more prominent issue in ME3, I predict.

It was an okay game, but it's a disappointment over all.

Just nonsense. It wasn't what some were expecting due to the streamlining of the inventory (which went a bit too far, admittedly) and the beefing up of the action elements, but it was a very character-driven game and a pretty great writing accomplishment. Thankfully most people seem to realize this outside of the usual cadre of anti-Bioware folks.

 

[Derrick01]

So, how long till Mass Effect starts making Call of Duty numbers? I know, right... what about Halo numbers? LOL, Gears of War 3 numbers? Anyone?

When I talk about EA games trying to ape other games I usually refer to ME as an attempt to ape Gears. ME will never do Gears numbers even if they add multiplayer. If anything their multiplayer, if it's real, would probably end up like Dead Space 2 meaning dead in 2 months.

Utter bullshit. Dozens of things you did in ME1 are referenced or have influence on events in ME2. It's one of the most impressive aspects of the game.

Oh yeah those emails were really impressive and game changing!

What should they do, write two entirely different game stories and cram them on the same disc?

Yes, otherwise don't hype that feature as your main "innovative" feature in the series.

 

[Deified Data]

Again, wrong. Shepard's entire situation is different due to ME2. His allegiances are different (and entirely dependent on player choice), his status in the eyes of the galactic population is different (again, determined by the player), and vastly more is now known about Cerberus, which was nothing but a handy antagonist for sidequests in ME1. We know more about the Reapers' methods, we know the identity of the Collectors (certainly significant in relation to ME1's final third). The only way to make the claim your making is to willfully ignore the story completely.

Spoiler

Unless you chose to align with Cerberus.

Woo player choice!

 

[Pre]

I've recently been playing through Origins for the first time, and I have to say that I'm interested to see if the second title can improve upon this turd of a game.

 

[Gattsu25]

I've recently been playing through Origins for the first time, and I have to say that I'm interested to see if the second title can improve upon this turd of a game.

Don't worry. Dragon Age 2 should be right up your alley.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

I've recently been playing through Origins for the first time, and I have to say that I'm interested to see if the second title can improve upon this turd of a game.

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbut!

not a fan of halfassed DA:O either, but halfassed is better than one quarter assed! or not assed at all. assed

want a Baldur's Gate experience? looks like we just have to keep playing Baldur's Gate, trolol

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Hm, where have I heard this tune before....

^^^ What this man said. They don't have a real plan, they're just knee-jerking here and there with no idea where they're headed after the immediate project. It's like they're a slave to focus groups, sales figures, publisher desires, and untested ideas.

 

[Vilam]

Can always count on GAF to raise a bitchfit about DA2. I haven't played it myself - not really my type of game - but multiple real life friends all enjoyed it quite a bit. It always puzzled me considering the backlash online, which I'd even bring up with them out of curiosity. They weren't part of the "new audience" either and also enjoyed DA1. Ultimately I can't help but feel that while there are a number of valid complaints, a large portion of the whiners out there find it popular to hate on EA and wrote off the game without giving it a fair chance.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Can always count on GAF to raise a bitchfit about DA2. I haven't played it myself - not really my type of game - but multiple real life friends all enjoyed it quite a bit. It always puzzled me considering the backlash online, which I'd even bring up with them out of curiosity. They weren't part of the "new audience" either and also enjoyed DA1. Ultimately I can't help but feel that while there are a number of valid complaints, a large portion of the whiners out there find it popular to hate on EA and wrote off the game without giving it a fair chance.

Would you like to see videos I recorded of the last ten minutes in order to "prove" that I played the game?

 

[Chinner]

Can always count on GAF to raise a bitchfit about DA2. I haven't played it myself - not really my type of game - but multiple real life friends all enjoyed it quite a bit. It always puzzled me considering the backlash online, which I'd even bring up with them out of curiosity. They weren't part of the "new audience" either and also enjoyed DA1. Ultimately I can't help but feel that while there are a number of valid complaints, a large portion of the whiners out there find it popular to hate on EA and wrote off the game without giving it a fair chance.

nice little condescending post here.

 

[WanderingWind]

^^^ What this man said. They don't have a real plan, they're just knee-jerking here and there with no idea where they're headed after the immediate project. It's like they're a slave to focus groups, sales figures, publisher desires, and untested ideas.

The last one being the only valid way to grow an established brand in the video game market, especially with fan genres like RPGs.

I'm not even upset at Laidlaw and BioWare for creating Dragon Age 2. What I am currently upset about is the fact that they understand that it was a bad game, continue to issue half apologies that read like thinly-veiled insults and seem content to move in their downward sales and critical reception spiral.

Laidlaw is a hell of a self-promoter though, because only a really good one would be able to spin a negatively received game that sold loss than it's predecessor and parlay that into a better position.

 

[MuddyDonut]

Can always count on GAF to raise a bitchfit about DA2. I haven't played it myself - not really my type of game - but multiple real life friends all enjoyed it quite a bit. It always puzzled me considering the backlash online, which I'd even bring up with them out of curiosity. They weren't part of the "new audience" either and also enjoyed DA1. Ultimately I can't help but feel that while there are a number of valid complaints, a large portion of the whiners out there find it popular to hate on EA and wrote off the game without giving it a fair chance.

Maybe you should....I dunno...play the game?

 

[Bisnic]

Oh yeah those emails were really impressive and game changing!

I met a bunch of people from ME1 in Omega and Illium that could be completely missing if i had killed them in the first game, or does that not count?

Sure, some people would argue that they're only good for 1 or 2 sidequests or only there for 5 minutes of dialogues each, but eh... i know GAF loves to bash ME2 for whatever reasons.