magicalsoundshower
Member
Well, at least they're not de-evolving like WRPGs which seem to have gone downhill and become less complex ever since Ultima 7 came out (for the most part).
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Bioware's Greg Zeschuk says JRPGs lack evolution
- Thread starter Regulus Tera
- Start date
I think that's his point though. At least the genre as a whole moved forward by integrating things from a previously successful game while JRPGs arguably haven't evolved as a whole since the FFI/DQ1 days. At leas that's what I'm thinking he's getting at. Whether that's actually true or not is a whole different discussion.ZombieSupaStar said:
Hours Left
Member
I feel like we've been hearing about the "fall" or "demise" of JRPGs for over 10 years, they are not going anywhere.
And WRPGs have more than their fair share of faults and recycled ideas, as does every genre. Why must it always be JRPG vs. WRPG? It's okay to like both, or to praise one without blasting the other.
And WRPGs have more than their fair share of faults and recycled ideas, as does every genre. Why must it always be JRPG vs. WRPG? It's okay to like both, or to praise one without blasting the other.
Teknopathetic
Member
I would like to say that not everything pre-halflife was just doom shooters.
System Shock 1, duders.
"Why must it always be JRPG vs. WRPG?"
Because JRPGs are fucking terrible.
System Shock 1, duders.
"Why must it always be JRPG vs. WRPG?"
Because JRPGs are fucking terrible.
MightyHedgehog
Member
But it's still choice for the player to make that isn't present in his example. Not saying it's perfect, but games should ultimately be about player empowerment...even ones that are interested in forcing you down a very specific path to see a specific story. Anyway, the devil is in the details of the execution, especially for RPGs. JRPGs have fallen way down in popularity and sales for the reasons he listed, just as WRPGs did at various points in the last twenty-something years, too. Just because his studio and its choice of genre specialization isn't the most regularly innovated or that they're not immune to the same general criticisms doesn't make his statement any less true.JoshuaJSlone said:
A lot of the current situation is also that WRPGs have a now solid representation on consoles due to the makers of them moving onto consoles and away from PCs while JRPGs have lost their dominance in the same platform space and have suffered from their home territory moving away from consoles and into handhelds and mobiles leaving fewer interested in supporting that market. The West has more options and hasn't made the mass moves into portable preference that Japan has...not yet, anyway.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
Teknopathetic said:
oh nobody played that, cmon now
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Raging Spaniard said:Eh, sure, but at least their textures load in time
Also, lets not pretend BioWare hasnt been making the same game for years now.
And there's where the argument breaks down.
KoTOR, JE, ME, DA and presumably ME2 follow the exact same plot structure. Intro level, 5 levels that give the illusion of choice, finale level(s).
They've also gamed morality to the point where it doesn't matter any more and it becomes yet another bar to min/max. In fact, in BioWare games, it's almost detrimental to be morally gray because of all the mechanics they've built around their morality system.
BioWare refines their game systems, of course. But they haven't "evolved" in a long time now.
Teknopathetic said:
fixed that a little ;-)
I really wanted to post this but couldn't find the correct words so i wouldn't be trolling.
I disliked the genre when i first saw a final fantasy game (somewhere during the early 1990's), and things have only gotten worse. WRPG's haven't exactly gotten better either come to think of it, barring a handful of exceptions.
To be honest, i dislike most big name Japanese games. Most of them are just too ridiculous to me, or have terrible HUD and interface design.
ShockingAlberto
Member
He's not wrong. JRPGs have mostly stagnated, but it's a market that does not reward experimentation. So developers have to stick to their core market, which is still sizable, and not take risks.
But it could also be coming from a better source. Bioware games still have terrible inventory management and pretty laughable sidequests. Nonlinearity is not a free pass on all aspects of game design.
But it could also be coming from a better source. Bioware games still have terrible inventory management and pretty laughable sidequests. Nonlinearity is not a free pass on all aspects of game design.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
Facism said:
id kill for an open world cyberpunk/ deus ex game, instead we got counterstrike with magic
Honestly, that's the reason I like jRPGs. I don't play them non-stop, but I like to play them every once in a while to play something comfortable and familiar. I really like the RPG output this gen. There aren't an overwhelming number of them so you can play them every few months and still feel "caught up" =)
firehawk12 said:
They really aren't. The leap from BG2 to something like Mass Effect, was much larger then from FF9 to FF12.
Not to mention what Bioware is doing with SWTOR. Which is shit that has straight up never even been attempted in the MMORPG market. It's probably one of the most ambitious games ever made.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
How many RPGs actually use turn-base battle systems these days? A couple of remakes on the DS?Zenith said:
And this too. Bioware's version of conversation really isn't all that much better than industry norm of "yes.. or yes?"JoshuaJSlone said:
Again, as repeated by damn nearly everyone, Bioware really shouldn't be talking on this one. Rather such critiquing should be left to the more diverse WRPG developers like, you know, the few still on the PC
magicalsoundshower
Member
I think it's safe to say that System Shock 1 (and maybe Marathon, not sure which came out first) pretty much invented the story-based shooter and Half-Life is actually a lot less complex than SS. I'd still rather classify System Shock 1 as an action adventure, though, as upgrading your cybernetic gear is a pretty integral part of the game.Teknopathetic said:
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Also, theres a fundamental difference. BioWare wants to make games about moral choices, thats fine. Who says JRPGS need to to that? Maybe I dont want to have that much control over my characters actions, you know?
I dont want to do things that go against the nature of the game just because BioWare has an idealistic view of what a game should be.
I dont want to do things that go against the nature of the game just because BioWare has an idealistic view of what a game should be.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
I've only played a teensy tiny bit of Dragon Age, but I'm fairly sure the choices you make in that game are more complex than 'yes or yes' or 'kick the puppy or feed the puppy'. Credit where credits due, and all that jazz.grandjedi6 said:
ZombieSupaStar
Member
fresquito said:
well since troika/black isle are smoldering craters and Obsidian has 1 foot on a banana peel and the other on a loose rock, beggers cant be choosers
fresquito said:
This is sad but true. One can only hope that Bethesda pays attention to the succesful mods and uses those ideas in the next FO and Oblivion. I see modding as a form of backseat game design, there's no better way to show a dev what you want than actually making it.
larvi said:
Nobody is saying what they are using isn't similar, it's just a different system. A better, more refined system. What if you changed the name of Dex/str/con to something different, would that somehow make it more innovative? Thats what many JRPG's do, and many games that are coming out of Japan right now (like Demon Souls, which is a game that ripped off all ti's mechanics yet gets called innovative by EDGE)
Nobody is saying JRPG's aren't good games, or aren't fun. The fact is, they aren't selling like they used to, people care a lot less about them now then before, and there is a lot of fucking rehashed trash being shovelled onto shelves.
In fact, it honestly seems like the Western fans of JRPG's play a lot more of the good JRPG's then gamers from Japan do. Gamers who are obsessed with the brainless, thoughtless, terrible Monster Hunter series.
Misterinenja
Member
Didn't this guy just release a game straight from the 90's a while ago? :/
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
There is something to be said of games sticking to genre standards on purpose. In fact, such a thing is the norm for every genre. If you look towards the most popular games of any genre they will always play close to genre standards And as long as it doesn't get as bad as, lets say, the horror film genre, I'm not sure what the neverending fuss about evolution is.Firestorm said:
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Oh by the way, funny that BioWare bitches about JRPG's not innovating when they STOLE THE GAMBIT SYSTEM for Dragon Age.
I mean, come on.
I mean, come on.
CabbageRed
Member
Hopefully a Japanese developer can finally break free, dig deep in the Garden of Originality, and make a game set in a medieval fantasy world where the selfish and expansionist humans rule over a swath of land that looks like England. There could be a pointy-eared race called "Elves" and they would be a once-proud race that feels a strong connection to nature and are in their twilight years thanks to the humans. There could also be "dwarves" who would be cranky little people that lived in mountains who are also in a state of decline.
Make sure that whatever race you play in the game it is clearly meant to provide the 'human perspective' and you have a winner whose originality can repeated over and over again.
Make sure that whatever race you play in the game it is clearly meant to provide the 'human perspective' and you have a winner whose originality can repeated over and over again.
Shogun PaiN said:
Have you even played Dragonage. Your choices change the game from start to finish. Your choices, race, class, decisions etc.. all change the experience you have from the moment the game starts until it ends. You act like it's all the same until the end.
Thats the problem. Most people in this thread who are defending JRPG's (like he said they suck or something), have not played the WRPG's they are inturn trashing.
Vyse The Legend
Member
LiK said:
Surely you jest...
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
but I'd imagine the journey to that text box has a few different potential paths?Shogun PaiN said:
Teknopathetic
Member
"Nobody is saying JRPG's aren't good games, or aren't fun."
No, I am expressly saying this.
No, I am expressly saying this.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Blackface said:
Yes, they're making us pay a monthly fee to play KoTOR3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. I suppose that's innovative. I admit I don't know crap about the TOR, but if there's a "morality system" and fetch quests, I don't see how it's different from any other BioWare game.
And I agree that the leap from BG2 to ME2 is huge. They did an action game with Jade Empire and a TPS with Mass Effect. But everything else, from how companions/party members work, to the story structure, to the morality, to the dice rolls feel mechanically the same. Hell, they still haven't found a metaphor for conversation systems beyond dialog trees.
People make light of the "farting" in Fable 2, but at least they tried to do something different with regards to how a player interacts with NPCs.
jRPGs this gen:
Turn-Based
Lost Odyssey
Blue Dragon
The Last Remnant
Enchanted Arms
Arc Rise Fantasia
Real-Time in Turns
Eternal Sonata
Valkyria Chronicles
Real-Time
Tales of Vesperia
Infinite Undiscovery
Star Ocean IV: The Last Hope
Magna Carta 2 (ok kRPG)
Demon's Souls
Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World
Turn-Based
Lost Odyssey
Blue Dragon
The Last Remnant
Enchanted Arms
Arc Rise Fantasia
Real-Time in Turns
Eternal Sonata
Valkyria Chronicles
Real-Time
Tales of Vesperia
Infinite Undiscovery
Star Ocean IV: The Last Hope
Magna Carta 2 (ok kRPG)
Demon's Souls
Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World
I might consider that a bad thing if JRPGs battle systems weren't a hell of a lot more fun and interesting than Bioware's broken battle systems.
As much as I like Dragon Age, god that battle system is a bore. It just doesn't flow at all either.
I applaud FFXII and FFXIII for making more outlandish jumps into completely new directions. (yes, even though I realize FF XII's battle system is almost like Dragon Age).
As much as I like Dragon Age, god that battle system is a bore. It just doesn't flow at all either.
I applaud FFXII and FFXIII for making more outlandish jumps into completely new directions. (yes, even though I realize FF XII's battle system is almost like Dragon Age).
CabbageRed said:Hopefully a Japanese developer can finally break free, dig deep in the Garden of Originality, and make a game set in a medieval fantasy world where the selfish and expansionist humans rule over a swath of land that looks like England. There could be a pointy-eared race called "Elves" and they would be a once-proud race that feels a strong connection to nature and are in their twilight years thanks to the humans. There could also be "dwarves" who would be cranky little people that lived in mountains who are also in a state of decline.
Make sure that whatever race you play in the game it is clearly meant to provide the 'human perspective' and you have a winner whose originality can repeated over and over again.
Lord of the rings?
magicalsoundshower
Member
Interestingly enough, SS1's predecessors by the same development team, the two Ultima Underworld games, were the very first 3D action RPGs, i. e. they were the granddaddies of Oblivion. One could easily describe SS1 as a dumbed-down Ultima Underworld 2, set in the future, with guns. I still loved it though. It still boggles the mind that some reviewers considered SS1 a Doom clone when it came out which seems to prove that they really weren't all that smarter back then.jman2050 said: