I wasn't even thinking about Borderlands but I guess you can count that. Mass Effect and Fallout 3 are two of the most popular WRPGS this gen. The three WRPGS I'm looking forward to most next year are Mass Effect 2, Alpha Protocol, and Fallout: New Vegas. Guess what combat mechanic they all have in common?Talon- said:
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Bioware's Greg Zeschuk says JRPGs lack evolution
- Thread starter Regulus Tera
- Start date
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Talon- said:
i do. The thing is the previous entries the combat is based around the character you are playing and not you. People bitched about it in Morrowind so Bethesda got rid of it for twitch based combat in Oblivion. The stat/character based combat that was good enough for all previous entries of TES suddenly had to change due to the demands of the new fanbase.
I don't think there's anything wrong with adding a more visceral combat system to a RPG, especially when the key elements (character progression, loot, stats, etc.) all remain in place. After all, BioWare clearly set out DA as a completely separate entity.Fredescu said:
I'm really interested in seeing how Alpha Protocol winds up.
charlequin
Banned
More Fun To Compute said:
Nice!
Unsurprisingly, despite greatly enjoying games by all three developers, I came into this thread with significantly more respect for Warren Spector and Chris Avellone than Greg Zeschuk. :lol
A Link to the Past
Banned
Yes and no. Some JRPGs ARE lacking in evolution, but games like Valkyria Chronicles and The World Ends with You are very shining examples of the genre's quality.
duckroll said:I also think it is awfully hypocritical for Bioware to bash "JRPGs" when they made the Sonic RPG on the DS, which is essentially a really shitty JRPG clone. The game obviously bombed, so maybe they're just trying to justify why it failed by blaming their inspirational sources for that turd.
Greg Zeschuk after reading your post:
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
MW2, the most successful rpg this gen by far.Fredescu said:
Are they really that good at it, though? Their storytelling's seen a pretty astounding improvement, certainly, and you could even argue for an improvement in the base writing, but in terms of making a game they have yet to show any real stellar growth. It took them a good four or five years of making games before they even managed to take the anchor of shitty licensed settings and piss-poor d20 mechanics off their neck. They have improved since then, but Mass Effect 1 wasn't really stellar in that department, and Dragon Age's combat can be pretty janky as well.Number 2 said:
I mean don't get me wrong, they are definitely evolving and refining their games, and I really do hope they pull it together and make something awesome for Mass Effect 2 and whatever non-MMO stuff they've got in the pipeline, but as of now I really don't think they've shown that they're in any real position of authority in terms of refining existing systems, nor have they really shown any willingness to go with more experimental game mechanics. In both cases I could point to at least two JRPG developers that excel in each of those categories, and probably more if I took time to think about it or starting throwing one-off games into the mix instead of franchises.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Ballistictiger said:
Ike actually evolves from a young man (17) to an adult (20). He really is one of the manliest character in anything remotely JRPG in the last few years. I'm sure there might be more, but I don't know them.
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
I kinda feel like Final Fantasy 12 is more different from Final Fantasy 6 than Dragon Age is from Baldur's Gate. I picked those because there is about a decade between their respective releases.
I mean if you want to throw Mass Effect in there in place of Dragon Age, I'm not sure I still don't come out saying that the Final Fantasies are more different. I guess what I'm saying here is it seems like this guy is pretty much incorrect.
I mean if you want to throw Mass Effect in there in place of Dragon Age, I'm not sure I still don't come out saying that the Final Fantasies are more different. I guess what I'm saying here is it seems like this guy is pretty much incorrect.
Misterinenja
Member
soco said:
Rly.
*sigh*duckroll said:
From a pure battle mechanics point of view. By a step backwards, I meant they stepped away from FFXII's in-area combat, gambits, etc., which I thought were a big improvement for the series. Also, from the 3 or so hours of FFXIII I've seen, there's been more melodrama than in the entirety of FFXII with that Vanille girl giving Snow the strange nods and all.
So, as a reminder, independent parts of the FFXII experience that were divergent from traditional Final Fantasy games were dropped in FFXIII.
It's like I have to stick a "IMO" at the end of every damn post. :lol
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
i dont think so, no. The games have gotten steadily worse from BG2 on. DA is a step-up but its no where close to what i had hoped for.Coxswain said:
Until now 5 years of Biowares time is what? Two games?
Its funny you mention 3rd party rulesets as an anchor around Bioware because i personally feel that Bioware has not made a really engaging system since theyve been doing their own thing.
i mostly agree with this. Biowares evolution has been mostly to presentation. Things look very pretty and polished and lotsa voice acting and facial animations and "epicness" and "extreme." It reminds me a little bit about the Star Wars movies.
MvmntInGrn
Member
Why in in-area combat in any way important to defining a JRPG or WRPG?Talon- said:
An in-area combat system is not more advanced than a turn based one.
MvmntInGrn
Member
Sorry, I meant why is it an improvement. :lolTalon- said:
Unknown One
Member
Hopefully so, I know when FF13 comes out I would want to gauge my eyes out because of Girly men.Cow Mengde said:
Ike actually evolves from a young man (17) to an adult (20). He really is one of the manliest character in anything remotely JRPG in the last few years. I'm sure there might be more, but I don't know them.
Really, Duck? Where did I criticize FFXIII as a whole? I clearly stated what I meant by step back.duckroll said:You just agreed with someone earlier that criticizing something without having actually played it yourself results in ignorance, and then you go ahead and do exactly the same thing. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.
So I can't make a value judgment on the battle system of a new Final Fantasy game that has been described explicitly as a departure from FFXII's system?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
soco said:
In terms of storytelling, no. In terms of gameplay and combat mechanics definetly.
The only thing JRPG has been stagnant over the years is the way they present the plot and character development in the gameplay department and systems there's so many different approach in the genre, that someone saying otherwise can't go further of the 'lol shitty animu games' crystal with they look the genre.
If you don't consider dialogue trees and choice influenced story progression as key, you end up with garbage like Borderlands.Talon- said:
Marketing Department: Research shows that 67% of Fallout 3 players skipped through the dialog sequences
Publisher: Give us a shooter with levels and loot!
Developer: *makes Borderlands*
I can't believe how many times I heard, not just on GAF, that Borderlands was like Fallout 3. I was stunned, actually stunned as in "wait, you really think that?" every time I heard it. In which universe?
Dragon Age's combat is the one good thing WRPGS have done in a while. It's a return to actual strategy. Screw this pause > click head bullshit.Coxswain said:
Crash Station
Member
I haven't read through the thread since I expect it to be a big east vs west battlefield, but I honestly think JRPGs have evolved too much. Most of the series known for good turn-based battle systems have moved on to pseudo real-time/mmo/srpg battle systems. Even the new ones are trying to combine turn-based and real time elements that it ends up enjoyable to a tolerant few (Eternal Sonata).
ZephyrFate
Banned
I laugh at people who think jRPGs aren't evolving and then fail to include Demon's Souls. And then they say that DS stole ideas from other games. Fuck that noise. Demon's Souls is one of the most innovative RPGs, not just Western or Japanese, in a decade or more.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
And in 1998 Fallout 2 had gay marriage. Not only that but you could pimp out your spouse for some caps.Ferrio said:
Talon- said:
Every single FF battle system is different though, so I can't really see how being different is automatically a step back. FFX and FFX-2 had completely different battle systems too. FFX didn't even have ATB. I'm sure someone out there would argue that FFXII is a step back from FFX because removing ATB was a step "forward" in making the game more strategic and less action based. Yet many people would also argue that FFX-2 was the right step foward, with ATB and attack strings playing a more action based role with the ability to interrupt enemies and to cancel attacks, and that FFXII took a step back from that.
The point is, it's silly to consider something a "step back" without even trying it out in the game it's featured in first. Remember how many people declared that FFXII was a terrible misstep for FF before the game even came out simply based on how it was described and what they thought it meant in comparison to FFs before that?
MvmntInGrn
Member
Your right, I separated it incorrectly.Talon- said:
I don't buy that Borderlands is a sign of RPGs becoming mindless. Borderlands is a loot game. It's not a separate genre perhaps, but it's a certain type of game that's just fun to play through.Fredescu said:
The game I've played more than any other game my entire life is without a doubt Diablo II. I don't give a flying flip about the narrative. I just want to go around blowing foes away with satisfying skills and pick up unique items.
Now, Mass Effect is without a doubt a more streamlined experience, but I don't think the character progression suffered in any way from the loosened skill assignments and whatnot.
Crash Station
Member
Talon- said:
But it also lessened the impact of each attack. For those of us that didn't want to watch the game play itself, battles took much longer than they should have.
Not saying it isn't good for you or anyone else that liked gambits, but there's just as many if not more fans that didn't. That's why FFXIII is being considered a "return to form" rather than a "step back" by the fans that hated XII.
cosmicblizzard said:
I think it's going to be pretty funny when FFXIII is actually released in English, and both camps start bitching about various aspect of the FFXIII battle system. It will either be "too gimped" from the FFXII gambit system of almost full auto control, or it will be "too similar" to the crappy ass FFXII gambit autoplay system. :lol
You and I both know that FFXII didn't play itself unless you were just burning through run-of-the-mill encounters but that's a different conversation.cosmicblizzard said:
Sure. In my eyes I consider it a step back from just a direct point of view. Am I taking a harsher tone than how I actually feel? Maybe.
Again, obviously my posts are going to come from my point of view. I'm personally disappointed that they took a "step back" in even dropping the in-area combat, especially when the loadtimes are non-existent. I know without even playing (and watching some streams) that it's going to take longer to roll through an area.duckroll said:
My greater disappointment is that I felt like FFXII was an early sign of where the series could be headed mechanically, but they decided to make a throwback of sorts. I'm sure this could be vaguely related to the FFVIII -> FFIX period in the series.
Then again, what the hell was I really expecting?
Crash Station
Member
duckroll said:
*Sigh* If the fanbase didn't need more splintering...
Whatever, there's complainers for each mainline release and I don't expect this to be any different. I'm sure things will work out.
Talon- said:
Yeah, I was exaggerating but there is some truth to it.
And no, you aren't being harsh at all. I'm basically just saying there's two sides to everything and there will always be fans that aren't satisfied. I wasn't satisfied with XII and it sounds like you won't be satisfied with XIII. Can't please everyone I guess.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
soco said:
Yeah, actually I did, Is my english broken or are you just being pedantic?
voodoopanda
Member
JRPGs hit their peak with the Shadow Hearts series. Couldn't go anywhere but down after those.
Honestly, I feel the same way. Splitting hairs between binary choices makes your character less of a role and more...gamey. Peter Moore was talking about this on 1UP Yours last year, and he said they found that players actually want a tangible measurement of their choices despite what you hear, which is why they kept the morality system in Fable 2.Cowie said:
The late quest where the "selfless" decision would cause scarring was a nice touch in that game. I wish they would've taken that further.
Only when the battles don't matter. Heh.cosmicblizzard said:
Oh, sure, I'm sure there's someone pleased about the aesthetics but pissed about the gameplay and someone else thrilled with the gameplay and annoyed by Vanille and Fang. Can't please everyone with such a popular series, but even the "worst" Final Fantasy's are instant GotY contenders.