Support NeoGAF

[Azih]

...continued rise? You're talking as if it only became popular in the 1990

Nah I'm just saying that it peaked after 2001 and any connection drawn between the decline of anime as well as the JRPG in America and 9/11 due to some cultural backlash is tenuous at best.

 

[water_wendi]

ive been thinking of exactly how and to whom to reply to in this thread but there is so much different bullshit going on, this thread is now like a sub-directory with its own topics :lol

Anyway.. in regards to European devs being cheated out of recognition with the wrpg moniker... what? i think the reason there is not much discussion here on Neogaf is that the majority of them dont make it to console. And those that do are often horrible due to porting or translation issues (Risen, Two Worlds, for example). When good ones hit there is discussion about them.. theres been tons of discussion about Sacred 2, Risen and Divinity 2 lately.

 

[sonicmj1]

I've gotta say, I can see where Greg is coming from based on that experience.

I haven't played Eternal Sonata, but I abandoned the genre for a long time after playing Tales of Symphonia and giving up on it halfway through. I sunk my share of time into it, but when I was trudging through yet another set of elementally themed dungeons, I felt like I had done everything in the game before a million times, even though my JRPG experience was little more than Pokemon, Final Fantasy, and Dragon Quest before that. Yet many of my friends loved the game. "Maybe this genre is not for me," I thought to myself. It was only after playing Persona 4 and TWEWY recently that my mind changed. It's still not a genre I'm unconditionally enthusiastic about, but I can see now that it isn't static.

Many of the JRPGs that come over here are extremely conservative, and if they aren't very, very good at what they do, they're going to cause fatigue in anyone who isn't a real genre fan. Appealing to that niche is much safer for the North American market than bringing over something new. The only platform where publishers are willing to take risks seems to be the DS, which isn't a platform I use very often. The only games I've bought for it in the last two years are TWEWY, Professor Layton and the Curious Village, and Order of Ecclesia.

 

[Flachmatuch]

Nah I'm just saying that it peaked after 2001 and any connection drawn between the decline of anime as well as the JRPG in America and 9/11 due to some cultural backlash is tenuous at best.

Peaking after 2001 fits perfectly well with the theory though. I don't think that the cultural backlash argument is very good either, but a "backlash" can be a process that decreases growth (second derivative). A better counter argument might be the popularity of the Wii and its games.

 

[BocoDragon]

Also, I'm not really even talking about the boom. I'm just disappointed anime isn't as easily available as it was when we were growing up now that one of the major blocks is gone and the other one mostly sucks. I don't know how it is where you're from, but anime has kind of exited the mainstream over here.

I'm only 25, but when I was "growing up" anime wasn't mainstream for North America either. The entire experience consisted of finding VHS and DVDs in the tiny "Japanimation" section of the video store, along with the occasional airing of an adult anime film after midnight on a sci fi channel or whatever.

Anime only started airing on TV in a big way with the success of Pokemon in 1997-98. Now we're in 2009 and this supposed golden era of mainstream anime has passed? It was a brief flash in the pan from my perspective.

Honestly the appeal of anime significantly lessened once I started seeing all those series brought over, and lo and behold, most of it was the same junk food for kids that Americans pumped out. Up until then, the main "point" of anime was to see the types of animated shows that Americans would never have produced.. Wacky stuff.. Sex and violence of course.. It filtered out that 99% of childrens pap that actually made up anime and left only the unique content promoted by the underground channels of fandom.. If anime isn't mainstream in America any more... Fine by me! I liked it that way.

 

[truly101]

Well it certainly sounds plausible that there's some kind of connection between 911 and the incredible popularity of military games, and maybe that has something to do with JRPGs becoming less popular (although it's probably more because of general decline of a genre).

Thats more of an American culture thing, we like blowing shit up. Again, JRPGs were quite popular in the PS2 heyday, which was post 911. I do think that the whole 9/11, Iraq and Afghanistan wars did increase the popularities of military shooters and FPS games in general. Again, there is more of a direct correlation and identification there.

People also forget that this decade has really seen the advent of quality western games on consoles. Used to be that most console games made in the west sucked ass, they marginally got better from the Snes/Genesis days to the PS1, to their explosion on the Xbox and PS2. Now they're arguable the more dominant developers, save for Nintendo and maybe Capcom. Naturally western developed games are going to cater a little more to western sensibilities. Its not really a mystery when you consider very facet, it just doesn't sound as cool as "911 KILLED THE JRPG!!!!"

 

[sfried]

I think the problem is when people equate America as the whole of "Western" culture and sensibilities. I know most European produced games have less clearly defined sides and more empathetic characters than the American counterparts. I'd like to point out Beyond Good & Evil as an example, but I don't think it contributes to the discussion of RPGs that much.

 

[Flachmatuch]

Thats more of an American culture thing, we like blowing shit up. Again, JRPGs were quite popular in the PS2 heyday, which was post 911. I do think that the whole 9/11, Iraq and Afghanistan wars did increase the popularities of military shooters and FPS games in general. Again, there is more of a direct correlation and identification there.

People also forget that this decade has really seen the advent of quality western games on consoles. Used to be that most console games made in the west sucked ass, they marginally got better from the Snes/Genesis days to the PS1, to their explosion on the Xbox and PS2. Now they're arguable the more dominant developers, save for Nintendo and maybe Capcom. Naturally western developed games are going to cater a little more to western sensibilities. Its not really a mystery when you consider very facet, it just doesn't sound as cool as "911 KILLED THE JRPG!!!!"

No idea tbh, but it's a pretty complex issue. For example, a lot of modern (military oriented) games deviate from the "folktale" type story, where the underdog wins against the "evil" larger entity, and some even do the exact opposite: focus on "war" and present one side as being fundamentally right although with some faults and errors (like MW...and I guess that's part of the reason for the amount of WW2 games released). Or you get two sides that are very similar overall, and war's presented as a natural thing, something that can't be avoided and is basically everyone's fault. (Along the more traditional "evil mastermind attacking us" stuff of course.) And of course you get direct military simulation type stuff where you just assume you're doing the "right thing", or don't even care about it. Of course this is variety, which is a good thing in itself, but the picture they present on war and the reasons behind it etc is pretty homogeneous, and there's basically no critical thinking that could be related to current stuff in any of them. This may be just about liking to blow shit up, but it's still super narrow minded and tbh it reminds me of the "communist" propaganda that I grew up with (just much, much higher quality of course).

 

[pancakesandsex]

I think the introduction of the Xbox, the shift in development platforms from windows to console, and the inherited attitude that pc games are inherently better than console games from the 90s (when the overwhelming majority of console games, rpgs in this case, were Japanese in origin, and Western in origin for PC,) are what lead to arguments like this.

Basically the crowd who hung on every word PC gamer printed in the mid 90's, or the fresh meat who would have eventually been part of that crowd, are now playing video games on console instead of PC for the most part. These people are exposed to games they wouldn't have been, and wouldn't have wanted to be, 10-15 years ago, and PC vs console transformed into East vs West.

Now the PC vs console argument still exists, but on far different issues than it did back in the 90's.

 

[Azih]

Peaking after 2001 fits perfectly well with the theory though. I don't think that the cultural backlash argument is very good either, but a "backlash" can be a process that decreases growth (second derivative). A better counter argument might be the popularity of the Wii and its games.

Which I also mentioned, alongwith the great success of the PS2.

 

[water_wendi]

Thats more of an American culture thing, we like blowing shit up. Again, JRPGs were quite popular in the PS2 heyday, which was post 911. I do think that the whole 9/11, Iraq and Afghanistan wars did increase the popularities of military shooters and FPS games in general. Again, there is more of a direct correlation and identification there.

i think the rise of fps popularity among console gamers was more from Halo than patriotic feelings from 9/11.

 

[Flachmatuch]

Which I also mentioned, alongwith the great success of the PS2.

I just wanted to nitpick about that single argument, sorry. I don't really think you need a "backlash" to explain decreasing popularity of anime or jrpgs.

i think the rise of fps popularity among console gamers was more from Halo than patriotic feelings from 9/11.

Yeah, but it's more like positive feedback I think. Surely the wars are a good thing (sorry) for FPS makers and in the other direction, the militarism that a lot of these games show is good for helping people accept wars?

 

[sfried]

I just wanted to nitpick about that single argument, sorry. I don't really think you need a "backlash" to explain decreasing popularity of anime or jrpgs.

I don't think it has anything to do with America per-se. I think it has to do with the declining market in Japan. Only then where they feeling the effects of the (80's) economic bubble burst (as can be seen from the simplification of the so-called "anime" style to something resembing the overlly-abstracted and "clean looking" are we have today), and as a result, the bigger companies were willing to take less risks.

Again, trying to round up America as the whole of "Western" audiences is rather Americentric in approach.

 

[Flachmatuch]

I don't think it has anything to do with America per-se. I think it has to do with the declining market in Japan. Only then where they feeling the effects of the economic bubble burst, and as a result, the bigger companies were willing to take less risks.

I have no idea why a declining Japanese market would change American tastes. I think it was just a temporary burst in popularity, like a fashion, which happens quite often, or maybe the American gaming/movie industries succeeded in learning everything they could (and that worked for US audiences) from the Japanese in this time.

Again, trying to round up America as the whole of "Western" audiences is rather Americentric in approach.

I did that? Sorry.

 

[Torquill]

I think some JRPGs lack evolution and some don't, just as with WRPGs. I wonder if the issue relates more to quantity.

Is it that less JRPG games evolve, or that there are simply more JRPG games that do not? This is a significant difference.

If the same number of more progressive JRPG games are made as WRPG games (an assumption which may not be correct, this is just a thought) but there is an additional quantity of more traditional JRPG games that have no WRPG counterpart, might it only "appear" that JRPG games lack evolution?

We must also consider the fact that many old JRPG games get remade/re-released far more than western games which may make it appear there are many more less progressive new games than there actually are.

 

[Greg_Zeschuk]

Just a clarification on the "last" JRPG comment regarding Eternal Sonata - that was probably my last, though I may have played Rogue Galaxy since then, and I still do play DQVIII from time to time to get all the Dragonian Armor.

- I've played quite a variety of RPGs over the years (I'm dropping the 'J' for now as requested...) - I think it's pretty hard to hold down a full-time+ job and play lots of RPGs. As you all know they're super time-consuming and it's hard to keep up.

- It's fair to say I'm primarily a RPG hit-buyer - I've got and played practically everything from Square Enix from the last 10 years (with the exception of The World Ends with You, which I have, but haven't played yet). I'm looking forward to FFXIII though I'm not sure I dig the characters (I'm not stepping in that one!)

- I like Atlus a lot - the stuff they bring over is consistently interesting and different

- I've played a variety of other games over the last 10 years, my personal favorite being Skies of Arcadia on the Dreamcast. Lots of others: Suikoden series, Star Ocean, Shadow Hearts, Legend of Dragoon, the Grandias (multiple, starting on DC), Xenosaga, Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey (which I couldn't play), and lots of others I can't think of off the top of my head

- It's fair to say that I don't play a lot of RPGs on DS or PSP - for some reason I prefer playing tactics games on those platforms, so in addition to the multitude of remakes and FF Tactics my personal favorite tactics game as Jeanne D'Arc - I'm not sure if there's a tactics vs. RPG debate raging, but they are clearly related

So, I think I've sample enough to have some experience, but I'm definitely not a master. When I talk about the similarity I'm talking about the structure (e.g. how does the game work, where are the saves, how does the story unfold) and also what I'm doing moment to moment. Also - are any of the fundamental game systems identical to what they've been historically? In general, I think games from Japan to not show much evolution in those areas. I don't think we always to either, but in elements we're always trying to push something different (e.g. in Dragon Age: Origins the way NPC relationships work are totally different, and some of the website social stuff is different as well). Other western examples include the evolution from Black Isle's Fallout 1 & 2 into Bethesda's Fallout 3 - lots of changes there; it would have been easiest to keep it the same, but they took the aggressive route.

greg


(And, I liked the joke about Sonic DS - funny!)

 

[sfried]

Just a clarification on the "last" JRPG comment regarding Eternal Sonata - that was probably my last, though I may have played Rogue Galaxy since then, and I still do play DQVIII from time to time to get all the Dragonian Armor.

ARGH! Rogue Galaxy...Probably not the right thing

- I like Atlus a lot - the stuff they bring over is consistently interesting and different

That's great, but...

- It's fair to say that I don't play a lot of RPGs on DS or PSP - for some reason I prefer playing tactics games on those platforms, so in addition to the multitude of remakes and FF Tactics my personal favorite tactics game as Jeanne D'Arc - I'm not sure if there's a tactics vs. RPG debate raging, but they are clearly related

So, I think I've sample enough to have some experience, but I'm definitely not a master. When I talk about the similarity I'm talking about the structure (e.g. how does the game work, where are the saves, how does the story unfold) and also what I'm doing moment to moment. Also - are any of the fundamental game systems identical to what they've been historically? In general, I think games from Japan to not show much evolution in those areas.

I think wherein lies the problem: A lot of the changes in structure occur mostly in the handheld titles, simply because developers are able to take risks with the smaller budget and the fact that it requires less manpower to develop for. I would suggest you go over the selections mentioned by GAFers for the DS.

And I would avoid the Tales games if I were you. And Star Ocean. They tend to be very derivitive, and surely not definitive, representations of a Japanese-developed RPGs.

I'm wondering if you've still played pre-CD era console RPGs like FFVI (also known as FF3 for the Super Nintendo). To me, its lack of a central character was one of its charms, and the fact that you were free to choose your approach in the latter half of the game.

And...

- I've played quite a variety of RPGs over the years (I'm dropping the 'J' for now as requested...) - I think it's pretty hard to hold down a full-time+ job and play lots of RPGs. As you all know they're super time-consuming and it's hard to keep up.

I understand your predicament. Thanks.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

(with the exception of The World Ends with You, which I have, but haven't played yet)

I think you'll like it, it's one of the best RPGs in years IMO.

 

[Flachmatuch]

You're also comparing the about half a dozen console WRPGs, all very popular, which is a relatively new genre (it is too, on consoles), to a pretty mature genre in which dozens or so of games are released each year. Since it's so "new" and there are so few games in the genre, it's easy to see everything as "evolution".

Also, it seems to me that the "core gameplay systems" of WRPGs have much less variety than JRPGs; I don't mean the technology stuff (like NPC relationships), but the actual "pure" gameplay (rock paper scissors)...of course, this means that the "gameplay" in JRPGs is basically equivalent to the combat (which I think is technically kind of true).

 

[jim-jam bongs]

It wasn't a joke! I liked Sonic Chronicles

Spoiler

but yeah I did know you guys made it.

I was a bit surprised that more people aren't talking about it in the thread is all, since it sort of seems like the type of hybrid RPG that you're encouraging more of.

I know that it would probably be a large money-sink, but ever since Sonic came out I've wondered what an epic BioWare RPG would be like on a handheld. SC had some nice concepts, but I'm thinking more like the KOTOR of DS games. Hell, you could probably put the DA:O flash game on a cart and sell a fair bit.

 

[sfried]

I'd also recommend looking out for Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey for the DS next year.

 

[Torquill]

An interesting question just occurred to me. Has a major Western RPG title ever been commercially remade? Not re-released, remade.

 

[Azih]

You're also comparing the about half a dozen console WRPGs, all very popular, which is a relatively new genre (it is too, on consoles), to a pretty mature genre in which dozens or so of games are released each year. Since it's so "new" and there are so few games in the genre, it's easy to see everything as "evolution".

Also, it seems to me that the "core gameplay systems" of WRPGs have much less variety than JRPGs; I don't mean the technology stuff (like NPC relationships), but the actual "pure" gameplay (rock paper scissors)...of course, this means that the "gameplay" in JRPGs is basically equivalent to the combat (which I think is technically kind of true).

Well Console WRPGs are direct descendents of PC Rpgs and there is the rejoinder that Dragon Age is very much a throwback to BG II (which it is, as it was meant to be). As for core gameplay systems Fallout 3, Fable 2, Dragon Age, Mass Effect etcetera have very different 'core gameplay systems'. Certainly very different combat.

 

[sfried]

An interesting question just occurred to me. Has a major Western RPG title ever been commercially remade? Not re-released, remade.

Shadowrun for the SNES. Remade from its PC counterparts.

And Ultima.

 

[Torquill]

nm

 

[Fredescu]

And stop using the term "JRPG". I never saw the gap many Americans feels between the computer RPGs and console RPGs, that, and I feel "WRPG" cheats out Moleneux and the rest of European development houses that go unrecogniszed.

Cheats out? You think Drakensang, Divinty II, Risen, The Witcher, and so on, don't get counted as WRPGs? Your arguments are getting more and more bizarre.

 

[Torquill]

And stop using the term "JRPG". I never saw the gap many Americans feels between the computer RPGs and console RPGs, that, and I feel "WRPG" cheats out Moleneux and the rest of European development houses that go unrecogniszed.

Is Europe not generally considered part of the "Western" world? "Western" civilizations?

 

[Flachmatuch]

Well Console WRPGs are direct descendents of PC Rpgs and there is the rejoinder that Dragon Age is very much a throwback to BG II (which it is, as it was meant to be). As for core gameplay systems Fallout 3, Fable 2, Dragon Age, Mass Effect etcetera have very different 'core gameplay systems'. Certainly very different combat.

Just like JRPGs, they're all different variations on the same few concepts, no matter which way I look at them. FO3 is similar to ME (but with added tactical stuff (and yeah, you get additional neat stuff like this in loads of JRPGs)); Kotor, DA are both very similar (with tweaks of course) to NWN (and FF12 or even Grandia in some ways hehe) (imo Bioware games (except ME) are very similar to each other anyway (which is a good thing, seeing how good the basic combat is) - if there's much difference, I certainly don't notice it when I'm playing the games); Fable/Fable 2 are simple action RPGs. Borderlands is an awesome combination of Diablo and FPS'. Good stuff and I love them all (well I actually don't really like DA but that's an exception), but they're all pretty similar to a few "prototype" games I played (the best of them in the 90's and before :-/)

I don't think there's more variation than between JRPGs (actually there's less imo). On the other hand, since there are sadly only about 4-5 console WRPGs a year (and that's a good year :-/), they can be pretty different from each other.

 

[water_wendi]

Shadowrun for the SNES. Remade from its PC counterparts.

There was a Shadowrun game for PC?

And that remake thing is really a good point. im trying to think of a game and right now i cant come up with any.. nothing like Ys or the FF remakes on DS. That might have something to do with the "fatigue" people are talking about.

 

[Azih]

At this point we run into the problem of reducing games to their core concepts at which point every game is the same and there is no innovation between them at all, just variations. Defining 'innovation' and 'evolution' might be an impossibility in the first place making this whole thread kinda pointless.

Oh well, that's GAF.

 

[Tellaerin]

SC had some nice concepts, but I'm thinking more like the KOTOR of PSP games.

Fixed (at least for me, anyway ). A Bioware RPG for PSP would be amazing. Maybe a Jade Empire sequel/spinoff... I really enjoyed that game, and I'd love to see them revisit the IP.

Yeah, I know it's not likely, but a guy can dream.

 

[Torquill]

There was a Shadowrun game for PC?

And that remake thing is really a good point. im trying to think of a game and right now i cant come up with any.. nothing like Ys or the FF remakes on DS. That might have something to do with the "fatigue" people are talking about.

Yeah, I'm wondering if the core issue doesn't have more to do with the re-issuing of older titles than a lack of newer "evolved" titles.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Fixed (at least for me, anyway ). A Bioware RPG for PSP would be amazing. Maybe a Jade Empire sequel/spinoff... I really enjoyed that game, and I'd love to see them revisit the IP.

Yeah, I know it's not likely, but a guy can dream.

Boo! I hardly use my DS, don't make me buy a PSP that I hardly use too!

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

There was a Shadowrun game for PC?

Yes, but it's a multiplayer-only FPS.

 

[sfried]

There was a Shadowrun game for PC?

And that remake thing is really a good point. im trying to think of a game and right now i cant come up with any.. nothing like Ys or the FF remakes on DS. That might have something to do with the "fatigue" people are talking about.

What about Ultima? Wasn't that remade several times?

 

[Fredescu]

An interesting question just occurred to me. Has a major Western RPG title ever been commercially remade? Not re-released, remade.

The lack of remakes might be to do with their PC heritage. If you want to play an old popular game, someone has probably made a widescreen mod for it. A lot of people still play the old classics this way.

 

[water_wendi]

Yes, but it's a multiplayer-only FPS.

im talking about a game that the SNES could be based around. i know about the FPS :lol

What about Ultima? Wasn't that remade several times?

Not really. There were different versions released on different platforms.. like the PC version of Ultima I came out a few years after it released on Apple and Commodore but it was pretty much the same game. It wasnt a remake, just a port.

edit: i guess a case could be made for the first Ultima with the re-release because it was recoded and had updated graphics and some stuff was changed around. Probably the closest it comes to the Japanese remakes would be the Dragon Warrior 1 and 2 compilation released on the SNES.

 

[Flachmatuch]

At this point we run into the problem of reducing games to their core concepts at which point every game is the same and there is no innovation between them at all, just variations. Defining 'innovation' and 'evolution' might be an impossibility in the first place making this whole thread kinda pointless.

Oh well, that's GAF.

The original argument compared innovation (or whatever else evolution means) between two genres though, and that's easier to do than trying to define innovation in absolute terms. You just have to find comparable changes and cliches between the two genres.

 

[djtiesto]

Just a clarification on the "last" JRPG comment regarding Eternal Sonata - that was probably my last, though I may have played Rogue Galaxy since then, and I still do play DQVIII from time to time to get all the Dragonian Armor.

- I've played quite a variety of RPGs over the years (I'm dropping the 'J' for now as requested...) - I think it's pretty hard to hold down a full-time+ job and play lots of RPGs. As you all know they're super time-consuming and it's hard to keep up.

- It's fair to say I'm primarily a RPG hit-buyer - I've got and played practically everything from Square Enix from the last 10 years (with the exception of The World Ends with You, which I have, but haven't played yet). I'm looking forward to FFXIII though I'm not sure I dig the characters (I'm not stepping in that one!)

- I've played a variety of other games over the last 10 years, my personal favorite being Skies of Arcadia on the Dreamcast. Lots of others: Suikoden series, Star Ocean, Shadow Hearts, Legend of Dragoon, the Grandias (multiple, starting on DC), Xenosaga, Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey (which I couldn't play), and lots of others I can't think of off the top of my head
greg


(And, I liked the joke about Sonic DS - funny!)

Well, I can't hate on you THAT much if you're a really big fan of DQ8 and Skies of Arcadia! Even though they are totally uber-traditional in terms of genre structure, just that they pull of traditional RPGing so damn well (but that may be why I love them so much).

An interesting question just occurred to me. Has a major Western RPG title ever been commercially remade? Not re-released, remade.

As a matter of fact, a number of old American/Western PC RPGs got remade (for the consoles or Japanese PCs), but they were remade by Japanese companies no less. Ultima 3-5 got remade for NES, 6-7 for SNES (in fact, I think the SNES version of 7 was Japanese exclusive ironically enough), Eye of the Beholder, many of the Wizardry games.

And I would avoid the Tales games if I were you. And Star Ocean. They tend to be very derivitive, and surely not definitive, representations of a Japanese-developed RPGs.

I thought Star Ocean 1 and 2 brought quite a bit to the RPG field - the full motion active battle system, the reasonably advanced item creation systems, Private Actions and dialogue choices that affect characters attitudes toward you (having real gameplay applications, like the AI would be more apt to heal characters they have greater affinity towards), multiple endings based on these character affinities, and tons of various minigames.

 

[WanderingWind]

I think the problem is when people equate America as the whole of "Western" culture and sensibilities. I know most European produced games have less clearly defined sides and more empathetic characters than the American counterparts. I'd like to point out Beyond Good & Evil as an example, but I don't think it contributes to the discussion of RPGs that much.

Oh, but it should. It really, really should.

 

[mujun]

Game design isn't linear.

Not necessarily true. Halo defined console fps controls for a long time after it hit. Just one example. System Shock did the same for story presentation. Going back to older styles is mainly limited to retro feel games.

And your example of trying things new and coming away with the good stuff is true.

Problem is in Japan they often don't do that though and instead of keeping the good next time round they just put out a bunch of new stuff again leaving any improvements they may have stumbled on behind.

 

[HK-47]

Not necessarily true. Halo defined console fps controls for a long time after it hit. Just one example. Half life did the same for story presentation. Going back to older styles is mainly limited to retro feel games.

And your example of trying things new and coming away with the good stuff is true.

Problem is in Japan they often don't do that though and instead of keeping the good next time round they just put out a bunch of new stuff again leaving any improvements they may have stumbled on behind.

Half Life brought its brand of scripted storytelling in to the mainstream but System Shock was doing it 4 year earlier.