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Black female (non-stereotypical) protagonists in videogames?
- Thread starter Vermillion
- Start date
staticneuron
Member
There is nothing in my post that implies that that it has gotten "worse" per say. My sentence only implies that the damage is already done for some.
There is no way I could have gotten it backwards. The damage didn't come first. The separation couldn't have come first, since some culture used race as a deciding factor.
Racism and the effects that come from racism is in no way "fixed". If by better you mean there are less outright violence and more progressive movements in some countries, you may be right. But the world as a whole still have huge race and culture issues.
I guess the real question is are we discussing non-stereotypical dark skinned characters in video games, or the under-representation of very much stereotypical, just not negatively so, black characters.
The latter is obviously a much less represented group, especially when we're talking about female protagonists. And it finally leads to a yet another question, or perhaps a challenge - one of portraying a believable black character that is black enough for people like you, but still wouldn't lead to accusations of perpetuating racial stereotypes.
Wonder if that's even possible lol.
If the character is "black" in any way (whether harmful or helpful), the accusations will come.
But then... what stereotypes would we be talking about? There's lot's of different dark-skinned people, what stereotypes would they all have in common for us to know which ones they don't adhere to?
ResidentDante
Member
She was much darker in Dead or Alive 4, she was made lighter just like Vanessa from Virtua Fighter 4 to 5.
I ask the developers: Why?
Jest Chillin
Member
This question honestly feels like baiting and that's without even going into the post that followed it.
I really don't believe that it's that difficult of a notion to consider characters that are not Human as out of the range of consideration for the topic at hand. When the subject is the cornered around Human race representation in video games, Earthworm Jim should not be brought up as an example of any race. Fran is a Vierra and not a Hume and thus not even a fantasy equivalent of the same species. Just as a Mog is not considered "White" even though it has white fur.
The subject of what qualifies as a race vs. perception of race when nationality is considered it definitely a complicated one and as such there will likely never be a consensus on the subject. However it shouldn't be difficult to consider made up species in games that aren't even considered a Human equivalent as disqualified for the sake of discussion in these types of topics.
Marmaladefire
Member
Yeah uh.. Fran isn't actually black because she's a sexualized bunny lady with brown fur and not a person. (though I know I was one of the people who said we were supposed to read her as black, I wasn't totally serious there) I know quite a few black girls who love fran from the perspective of representation though. Taking what we can get at that point I think. I really loved Lisa, in DoA4 so it annoys me so much that they white washed her
Just like with Vanessa in Virtua Fighter. I mean what in the fuck is the deal? White washing characters is absolutely offensive, what the fuck are they trying to imply? Is it a matter of the perceived attractiveness of the characters in relation to their skin tone? SMFH.
Same deal with Kat From Gravity Rush. Heck she's not even suppose to be a african analogue. She's just different from the norm of the city enough to qualify her as an outsider. She's whatever the heck her people are.
It would help advance the discussion if you would elaborate as to why you disagree.
Yeah that's bad but I have customised her to make her proper dark, like Nigerian dark. I have seen many others online have done the same. She's MUCH better that way.
toastyToast
Member
As this thread has made abundantly clear, there's a lot of baggage surrounding the designation 'black'. There's still a discussion to be had with characters that are merely dark skinned because for one, they're not the status quo and secondly, by being dark skinned there's some sort of racial/ethnic identity associated with their appearance because its too simple for someone to just be dark/black, there has to be a good reason.
MWS Natural
Member
The Spoony Hou
Member
Exactly. She's not black, but if a black woman feels Fran represents her, that's fine for me. Fran looks human enough and is as inteligent as a human, so it's acceptable.
If you're going to exclude her because she's of a fantasy race, then you might as well exclude black people that come from fantasy cultures, because they won't match the same cultural background as real black people. Hell, exclude any black people from a culture different than yours, based on the same reasoning if you may.
So it is said by some. I did look it up after I wrote that comment and it seems the matter is still up for debate. From Wikipedia:
Race (Wikipedia)
But I don't buy it. It seems like race has become a categorisation with some nasty side effects that people are keen to do away with. You can see that in the tone of the announcement from researchers that you linked to. They have looked at things on a genetic level and see no difference which is fair enough since racial distinctions are very superficial.
But from a common sense perspective: take a black guy from Ghana and a white guy from Poland and look at them. Do you not see a difference? Do think that difference is socially constructed? Society made the one look they way they do and the other look they way they do. That makes no sense. Now take EVERY native Polish guy in Poland and EVERY native Ghanian, hell even add in every native dude from Quatar and put them in groups. Do you see a difference? Can you not see some common characteristics we can use to define each group? Are they socially constructed too?
As people mix and move around it becomes less easy and useful to see these distinctions but they are there for anyone with eyes to see and they are biological because human skin, hair and eyes are part of our biology.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I don't really understand your question. The point of using the term would be to drop the negative connotation associated with the term "black".
All I know is that what many are referring to without expliciting stating it is that black directly refers to features like huge lips, oversized noses and "nappy"/fro hair. Also associated with poverty and "dat thug life" at least in North America. If you don't have any of these in combination with dark skin you get people trying to break things down. This doesn't happen with people who are described as "white".
Like someone mentioned before, "white" and "asian" characters are allowed to have a variety of physical features and can come in all shapes and sizes, but if someone who is described as "black" does not have one particular set of physical features then they are scrutinized as "not black" but something else.
lol I was mostly joking but I wouldn't describe Fran as a monster. She is barely any different from a human. Take away the ears and the arched feet, she would pretty much be human. Also, she has a dark complexion which looks like skin to me, not fur. I see her as black in the same way I see Tuvok from Star Trek as black. Sure, they're not human but its close enough.
That isnt skin?!
I was going to argue there are plenty of white and japanese people in japanese media that have ears and tails, but thought that was skin.
Edit: I am looking at her right now I am pretty sure than is skin dude.
Don't mind them. The fact that people base their judgement solely on skin colour, then apply an extreme on the spectrum with the label 'black' and afterwards believe that judgement on skin should be based on her being blonde are lot fools fighting in the dark, a blind argument in itself.
If she were to walk the streets, she would be considered black. She mostly looks Indian if I were to pick by skin-tone, as I have a friend who looks similar in some ways.
Seth Balmore is all I can think of.
She has same skin tone I do, and I am african, and called "black" by simpletons.
I introduce to you, the color black:
Zoe
Member
Do you think he's black?
Gravity Rush does not take place on an Earth-based world. Many characters have exotic colorings.
methane47
Member
Uh... yes
oh lord
This lady by Neogaf standards is NOT black
"Black" as a race refers more to Biological heritage rather than physical characteristics.
She'd be considered a weird pale looking vampire that has natural blood red eyes. And probably locked up for study. At least a complete oddity.
We already had this argument when Kat was announced for PSABR and in the Gravity Rush thread. Even the creators said she's not meant to be representative of any section of the human race. A lot of the misconceptions are down to the coloring for shading because of her base skin tone, the color profiles used, and the extreme lighting conditions she's almost always under. Heck there were plenty of Japenese cosplayers that had very similar pale skin tones to what Kat has and they'd be bang on save for size of the eyes, but such a depiction of an ethnically Japanese person isn't uncommon in Japanese media either.
Dark Octave
Banned
This is what I hate the most about Japanese developers. Their total ignorance of black people while being given power to influnce the world on what black people are about.
-They almost always have to be HUGE compared to the rest of the team.
-They almost always have to be one of the oldest team members at around 40-something in a group of teens and 20-somethings.
-They almost always have to be the comedy relief.
-They almost always have to be the unatractive one in the group with lumpy, rough faces and scars in a sea of pretty boys and baby faces.
-They always are pretty much the only black person in the world.
-In an RPG setting you can bet your life that they will be a gun user.
-Almost always written to be brawn over brains. If you ever see a black female in an RPG (which you will probabaly never see (LO?)) I'll bet cash money that she will be the rough and blunt warrior, not the sweet and delicate healer.
Western games aren't perfect either, but they are getting better and at least they try at times.
Froschi
Member
Race is a social construct. Just like you folks say white people or black people. Ethnicity and genetics are not social constructs. They have a basis in human history.
Just like people say Asian or Indian. So many people say Indian as if everyone looks like Apu from the Simpsons or Kumar from the White Castle movies. And yet you don't see that it's one of the only countries in the world, where 4 socio-genetic groups have resided for over centuries. Mongoloid, Caucasoid, Australoid and Negrito. Go to North India, you'll see light skinned Indians with green eyes, go to the East, you'll see Indians with asian features, go South and you'll see Indians with aboriginal and samoan features etc.
So you can just say hey, we're all equal. We're all humans yes, but we have enough genetic diversity and differences. It's not about homogenization into one 'race' but about respecting all races and never demeaning someone because of it.
As for the debate on dark skinned, light skinned. There has been so much interracial marrying in the US, large portions of North Africa have seen massive migration from Arab countries etc. Go to Libya, Ethiopia, Algeria, Morroco, Tunisia etc. You'll see a large group of lighter skinned Africans. You can't just say oh she's black, or he's not black.
As for this discussion, we haven't had adequate representation of non white males, let alone having black female protagonists. Despite being the second largest minority group in America, Hispanics are still underrepresented in all facets of American society, from media, politics, sports etc. Have we even had a single 'East Indian' protagonist yet?
She'd be considered a weird pale looking vampire that has natural blood red eyes. And probably locked up for study. At least a complete oddity.
We already had this argument when Kat was announced for PSABR and in the Gravity Rush thread. Even the creators said she's not meant to be representative of any section of the human race. A lot of the misconceptions are down to the coloring for shading because of her base skin tone, the color profiles used, and the extreme lighting conditions she's almost always under. Heck there were plenty of Japenese cosplayers that had very similar pale skin tones to what Kat has and they'd be bang on save for size of the eyes, but such a depiction of an ethnically Japanese person isn't uncommon in Japanese media either.
She also has blond hair. Though could be a weave I guess...
Reminds me I have Gravity Rush sitting on my Vita unplayed. Any good?
1) Uh why cant black people have unrealistic features like everyone else in video games.
2) there are black people with blond hair.
Zoe
Member
It's pretty great. Ends with no conclusion though and the sequel has yet to be announced
hbkajshdvfbkjhvgkahsgdfka
Member
As a black guy who lives with black women who do not fit a lot of these definitions of black women, this thread is hilarious.
Mate, I come from Africa and I have yet to see a black person with naturally blond hair. I don't believe you. They are obviously of mixed ethnicity to have blond hair.
Arguing about the race of characters from fictional places is pointless.
dapperbandit
Banned
I always arrive in threads like these with conflicting thoughts. I have little doubt that what I'm going to say is going to annoy someone but it's my opinion.
On the one hand yes, it would be nice to see more variety and diversity in games (i.e, "less of the grizzled white guy with buzzcut" archetype people tend to go for). It would be great if the different groups that are represented were done so with more originality. So the black guy isn't always the burly machinegunner and the female isn't always the lithe sniper/stealthy character.
At the same time, I find some of the calls for variety quite arbitrary. As in, "there should be more games with black female characters, because there aren't that many games with black female characters".
If you're going to end up creating diverse characters for the sake of diversity, I have little doubt that you'll end up with mary sue characters that can do no wrong because those characters are basically created to please people. let's for a moment imagine there's a game, a murder mystery for example, and one of the characters is an Irish transexual. Then it turns out that this character is guilty of 11 cases of infanticide. What would the reaction from that community be? Of course it would be negative.
Because you're creating a character from a social group who has barely been represented in games before, you have to be very careful that are positively received. And that means you're fundamentally limited in terms of the depth of that character. And so you get characters that are more or less defined by their distinguishing characteristics, which makes for poor characterisation.
/rant
On the one hand yes, it would be nice to see more variety and diversity in games (i.e, "less of the grizzled white guy with buzzcut" archetype people tend to go for). It would be great if the different groups that are represented were done so with more originality. So the black guy isn't always the burly machinegunner and the female isn't always the lithe sniper/stealthy character.
At the same time, I find some of the calls for variety quite arbitrary. As in, "there should be more games with black female characters, because there aren't that many games with black female characters".
If you're going to end up creating diverse characters for the sake of diversity, I have little doubt that you'll end up with mary sue characters that can do no wrong because those characters are basically created to please people. let's for a moment imagine there's a game, a murder mystery for example, and one of the characters is an Irish transexual. Then it turns out that this character is guilty of 11 cases of infanticide. What would the reaction from that community be? Of course it would be negative.
Because you're creating a character from a social group who has barely been represented in games before, you have to be very careful that are positively received. And that means you're fundamentally limited in terms of the depth of that character. And so you get characters that are more or less defined by their distinguishing characteristics, which makes for poor characterisation.
/rant
You can be of mixed ethnicity and still identify as black, the president of the united states is proof that.
I am only addressing that people in fictional games can have outlandish features and still be that race. I am only addressing your statement, we can turn this into an argument if you want too.
Extra Sauce
Member
Sheva is perhaps the most sexually attracted I have been to a friggin' 3D model.
Well I don't believe people of mixed ethnicity are one race or the other though people in the US don't tend to view it that way. Obama is mixed race to me.
People in fictional settings don't correlate to any races we have here on Earth in reality because they are not part of our reality. Maybe in whatever fictional place she is from she is considered black but that is not the same black race that we have here in reality.
I am a firm believer that people of mixed ethnicity can Identify as whatever they wish to be.
You can still Identify things, even in fictional exaggerated settings. Oroe doesn't stop being black because on marvel earth you can be born with white hair. You can identify things and they do not necessarily have to be real, sounds like a lack of imagination.
methane47
Member
LOL
Mignon from King of Fighters Clearly NOT human. I can tell because I'm human and I have yet to see a human with naturally pink/salmon colored hair
Some people in this thread have the absolute worst reasonings
Let me add to this, not only can people of mixed ethnicity identify as whatever they chose,
People of mixed identity also can and will be identified by any of their races.
They cannot "remove" or "excise" themselves from groupings.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
Yeah, I don't get this type of double standard either. It's kinda messed up how people use this excuse when categorizing ethnically ambiguous japanese anime or game characters. "Black people can't have blonde hair! Therefore this character is obviously not black." People have to go above and beyond to even entertain the possibility of a character's Afro-influenced design/heritage.
Meanwhile, supposed white and asian characters are able to freely have any hair, eye, or skin color in the rainbow, no questions asked. It's such an exclusionary way of looking at things. What's the deal here?
methane47
Member
Yeah it's pretty ridiculous, And here again I'm going to go OUT of my way to entertain the possibility
http://kwekudee-tripdownmemorylane.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-melanesian-africans-of-solomon.html
Well I don't really hold that view. Culturally, yes, people of mixed ethnicity can identify with whichever side they want. But, as I suggested earlier, race is not a matter of choice. It's biological like gender. But if someone wants to see themselves as one or the other that's cool. I will understand that to be a cultural preference but they will still be mixed race to me and if I had to describe their race to anyone for any reason I would say mixed race not whatever cultural group they feel they want to belong to.
The comment about the weave was actually a light-hearted attempt at humour and not really worth deep-diving into. Yes, people in fictional universes can be black and have blond hair. There you go.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
LOL awesome. Shows just how diverse humanity really is.Yeah it's pretty ridiculous, And here again I'm going to go OUT of my way to entertain the possibility
http://kwekudee-tripdownmemorylane.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-melanesian-africans-of-solomon.html
so I guess it's not even necessary to suspend disbelief with naturally dark-skinned, blonde-haired characters appearing in fiction (especially fantasy settings).
Yeah it's pretty ridiculous, And here again I'm going to go OUT of my way to entertain the possibility
http://kwekudee-tripdownmemorylane.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-melanesian-africans-of-solomon.html
Wonders never cease! How about that? Learn something new every day..
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