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Blizzard admits Diablo 3's end-game is lacking, would like to fix eventually

The problem is, they tackled that problem backwards ans half-assedly in the first place. Instead of saying: we are going to take our time finetuning Inferno while giving you more looting options in the meantime, they first nerfed Inferno stupidly (without any tuning whatsoever) and then they upped the loot chances (again, without testing the values) once most people complaining had bought their way trhough the end of the game anyway. They effectivly broke any sense of progression people were supossed to have by making it trivial, simply because they didn't take the time to analyze and test what the numbers and community were telling them. They flatened the curve, and people got bored within a week.

Trivial? I still hear people complaining that Inferno is too hard. There's still a big leap from Hell Act 4 -> Inferno Act 1, a big leap from Act 1 -> Act 2, and a big leap from Act 2 -> Act 3. It's only trivial from the perspective of people who had already done tons of grinding to gear up for pre-nerf and suddenly found themselves able to easily beat the whole game.

If you think this is trivial, Diablo 2 was a complete joke. Everything there was already easy by the time you could beat Hell, especially in multiplayer games and especially especially after you start getting good gear.
 
Because Blizzard saw the life span of D2 lasting 10+ years, and the healthy trading scene that sprang up around it, they wanted a slice of that action so they monetized it. They imagined a scenario where D3 would also last 10 years, but this time it would be a constant source of revenue for them, for very little effort outside of server maintenance and occasional bug fixes etc.

In order to gain as much value from the player as possible and keep people playing, they needed to cockblock certain areas. Act 1, 2, 3, 4. They needed to slow the progress of the players. When people get to the end game too quickly, they're more likely to quit. And when they go, with them goes potential RMAH revenue.

It's easy for anyone who's put any significant amount of time into this game to draw these conclusions, but I don't think they really bear the weight of scrutiny.

Blizzard has a pretty solid track record of not nickle and diming their customers, despite a wealth of opportunities to do so. What they do have a track record of is making their games consistently more convenient and accessible, with the intent of broadening their customer base. That is how they get their long-term income -- from lots and lots of people continuing to buy their games years after release. Every change they've made from D2->D3 is in line with this, and the idea that they would suddenly shift from their consistently successful strategy to a f2p-style whale-milking scheme doesn't really make sense.

They also needed decent drops to be rare as hell, because they don't want you getting too powerful. Look at legendaries and set items. Some people have played for 200 hours and haven't seen one of either.

I put hundreds and hundreds of hours into D2/LOD, and found exactly one top-tier item (a piece of tal rasha's) and 0 top-tier runes. The loot in this game is crap, but that is more a result of the reward system being fundamentally broken by Nephalem Valor. The actual time investments to get the best of the best gear are not really changed from D2.

They needed gear checks, not skill checks. Otherwise, people would just be side-stepping the barriers, finish the game and lose interest.

Gear checks are how a loot game works, yes. I hate to break the news, but there is no skill in a point and click loot game. Running in circles for 20 minutes dodging attacks and dinking away at a boss fight that is designed to last 3 minutes is not skill, it is a silly waste of time, and a developer who does not plug that hole is irresponsible.

They also needed the stats on loot to be mundane so they had more control over how people used it. No crazy modifiers allowing for emergent gameplay. Again, that would give the player the edge, and shorten the length of time people would be playing, and that wasn't going to happen.

So they want you playing forever so you keep using the system that makes it so you no longer have to play forever? You really think a company that has raked in as much money as Blizzard over the past decade wouldn't see the gaping logic hole in that plan? The RMAH is there for the people who never would have put a significant amount of time into the game anyway.
 
The way they are treating D3 and its audience reminds me of how they handled WoW(TBC best expansion ever for a mmo) after WotLK and Cata. String people along and promises of future patches to keep them playing.

I did enjoy d3 for a while, but after builds for classes started to get pushed into a funnel after each difficulty setting it started to bore me.

This so much. I loved TBC! WotLK was really good but I lvoed TBC more. Cata was beyond a disappotnment. Infact, I have to cancel my sub here soon. I haven't played in months.
 
I'm hoping people would have been happier quitting because they've finished all the content though, instead of being stuck in Act 1. Maybe that's too hopeful though.

I didn't finish inferno, though I have no reason to. I just farm act 3 when I have time. When I went all melee wizard I went to act 4 to try to see how well it did. Stopped after Rakanoth because it was more annoying to farm and nothing that different or good was dropping. Act 3 is better, and act 1 is faster to farm. I'm not an achievement person, I don't even notice them when I get them usually. I turned the notifications when others get them off. There's no bonus for beating Diablo.

So far I like TL1 loot. I found some buff armor for my pets.
50e71732e9ac15fd412c57248c0bd7c7c9803c56.jpg

For TL2 this picture posted some while ago makes it seem interesting, and I'm sure they will have buffs for pets again, which is my preferred play style.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4361/qianbigimage.jpg

I hope the enchanter is back. I hate when he break my stuff but it allowed for some awesome custom armor.
 
Trivial? I still hear people complaining that Inferno is too hard. There's still a big leap from Hell Act 4 -> Inferno Act 1, a big leap from Act 1 -> Act 2, and a big leap from Act 2 -> Act 3. It's only trivial from the perspective of people who had already done tons of grinding to gear up for pre-nerf and suddenly found themselves able to easily beat the whole game.

If you think this is trivial, Diablo 2 was a complete joke. Everything there was already easy by the time you could beat Hell, especially in multiplayer games and especially especially after you start getting good gear.

It's trivial when you can buy 500k worth of gear (full set) from the AH for several classes, and complete the game with little to no skill involved. It has been done, it's just that some people might not be aware of how to do it. I'm not talking about perfecting the farming builds/routes and have super gear to do so effectively, but yes, I think it kind of became trivial after the nerf, whereas before, it just was stupidly unbalanced.

I don't know about D2, what I know is that it doesn't matter if Inferno is too hard or not (I think it isn't, just obnoxious) but more than it is not a compelling goal to build towards to. The Inferno progression curve in its current form is kind of worthless and the paralell activites to finishing the game/endless farming are nonexistant.
 
If they had balanced inferno properly in the first place, people would have just quit sooner. Either you quit due to frustration of not being able to progress, or you quit because you're done with the content. Doesn't really make a difference either way, the problem is a lack of things to do once you beat the game.
there's a big difference. i'd rather be bored with the game than quit because its broken. that leaves such a sour taste in my mouth, even when the inevetible expansion comes out. rather than thinking, "i hope the new content is cool," i'm thinking, "i hope they fixed all the old problems." i don't think people really want to play new content if all the underlying problems still exist.

also, i would definitely be staying if multiplayer wasn't broken. a good and balanced multplayer game mode can take 10hrs worth of content and turn it into a 1000.
 
I used to dislike your posts in the OT thinking you were just some idiot hater being elitist and such (esp with that damn smug avatar lol), but over the past week the light bulb went on for me and I have to say you're right on the money with EVERYTHING you've just said. I wish I had realized it sooner.

The worst part is, I feel like its unfixable. Ill be the first to admit that Im not the most imaginative guy in the world however.

But I mean, all the problems stem from them building a game around the AH. Since they chose to monetize the game through the AH, nothing they add can fix it...

I mean, they aren't going to remove the AH, because thats their revenue stream. And they aren't going to make drops that much better without changing something ELSE to re-balance the scales and make sure folks are still running to the AH as much as possible so they can make money from the game.

Any changes they make will likely add brief life to the game at best, because they are hamstrung by a flat out requirement to protect their money maker. I really do wish they had chose to monetize the game through a monthly fee. Old school Diablo heads would have fucking raged at the idea. But goddamn, at least the game design would not have had to suffer around it.

They wouldn't give a shit about you dodging attacks and slooooowly killing an elite over 15 minutes if they earned money via monthly fees. But instead, since they earn money through the AH, they cockblock you in game with enrage timers and high repair bills. Hoping that you will turn to the AH to solve that problem.
 
Because Blizzard saw the life span of D2 lasting 10+ years, and the healthy trading scene that sprang up around it, they wanted a slice of that action so they monetized it. They imagined a scenario where D3 would also last 10 years, but this time it would be a constant source of revenue for them, for very little effort outside of server maintenance and occasional bug fixes etc.

In order to gain as much value from the player as possible and keep people playing, they needed to cockblock certain areas. Act 1, 2, 3, 4. They needed to slow the progress of the players. When people get to the end game too quickly, they're more likely to quit. And when they go, with them goes potential RMAH revenue.

They also needed decent drops to be rare as hell, because they don't want you getting too powerful. Look at legendaries and set items. Some people have played for 200 hours and haven't seen one of either. Go to the AH, it was there specifically placed to condition you in its use so you'd be more likely to use the RMAH.

They needed gear checks, not skill checks. Otherwise, people would just be side-stepping the barriers, finish the game and lose interest.

They also needed the stats on loot to be mundane so they had more control over how people used it. No crazy modifiers allowing for emergent gameplay. Again, that would give the player the edge, and shorten the length of time people would be playing, and that wasn't going to happen. And by starting off modestly, it gives them plenty of wiggle room to slowly add more interesting modifiers, gems, horadric cubes or whatever with content updates and expansions.

Throw in always online, no modding, blur filter, etc etc.


So, they made Diablo 3. What they didn't account for was the players lack of tolerance for all of that crap. Now their greed is biting them in the ass. I hate to sound raged, but really, fuck them and their anti-consumer, my way or the highway, protect their cash cow at any expense attitude.

Exactly.

Diablo 2 had a loot system so good that people were willing to go outside the game and pay real money for the items it produced. Chasing the revenue generated by the latter Diablo 3 was designed without the former.
 
We'll see. I didn't care much for Torchlight because the loot was horrible.
I've gone back to Torchlight and I'm getting solid loot with interesting effects at a steady clip. Whats the problem with T1 loot compared to D3?

I also prefer Torchlight's Enchantment Shrines over leveling up my D3 blacksmith because the game respects you enough to at least tell you when its fucked you over.
 
there's a big difference. i'd rather be bored with the game than quit because its broken. that leaves such a sour taste in my mouth, even when the inevetible expansion comes out. rather than thinking, "i hope the new content is cool," i'm thinking, "i hope they fixed all the old problems." i don't think people really want to play new content if all the underlying problems still exist.

also, i would definitely be staying if multiplayer wasn't broken. a good and balanced multplayer game mode can take 10hrs worth of content and turn it into a 1000.

Eh, different strokes for different folks I guess. Personally I don't think the the progression or itemization is as fundamentally broken as people say it was. Maybe it's just because I no-lifed it from the beginning and was able to gear up (admittedly it was quite a struggle) in Act 2 early on and had some good drops that allowed me to get some really great upgrades and progress early on way before any drop rate changes or Inferno nerfs. And this is on a Barbarian no less.

I was playing all the way up until like 2 days ago and have like 300 hours on my character. I may still play some more if my items don't sell on the RMAH. I'd definitely still be playing if there was some kind of ladder, or raid-style encounters tuned for groups, or just something else other than farming items that I don't need for gold that I don't need.
 
The worst part is, I feel like its unfixable. Ill be the first to admit that Im not the most imaginative guy in the world however.

But I mean, all the problems stem from them building a game around the AH. Since they chose to monetize the game through the AH, nothing they add can fix it...

I mean, they aren't going to remove the AH, because thats their revenue stream. And they aren't going to make drops that much better without changing something ELSE to re-balance the scales and make sure folks are still running to the AH as much as possible so they can make money from the game.

I don't think the AH fundamentally breaks anything. It's fine. But it means people can theoretically completely content much faster, so the solution is to add more content. And yes, then it starts becoming MMOish, but that's that consequence of their decisions. I don't think this generation of new gamers would really put up with a D2-style game anymore anyway.
 
It was a huge mistake that Blizzard internalized and sanitized the external structures and practices that were produced and infinitely refined by the community surrounding Diablo II out of the game's deficiencies. These formerly external structures simultaneously filled the gaps and linked what wasn't previously linked, thereby embedding a lot of meaning into the game.

The community used to be an ocean of (lack of) knowledge, (mis-)information and (faulty) suggestions; it's now a counter at which buyer and seller meet. It's almost paradoxical. The culture that surrounded Diablo II was very much like a busy and bustling marketplace; now that Diablo III is just that, no exchange goes without knowing glances that say: "let's never speak of this again."

In the end, Diablo II's shortcomings are what distinguish it as the better game. It was an ugly vessel people poured a lot of love into until this new content, the cultural exchanges and gestures needed to play the game, made it beautiful. Diablo III is an eternally lifeless monument to greed.

I love this post, even though it sounds like you are on LSD.
 
So far I like TL1 loot. I found some buff armor for my pets.


For TL2 this picture posted some while ago makes it seem interesting, and I'm sure they will have buffs for pets again, which is my preferred play style.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4361/qianbigimage.jpg

I hope the enchanter is back. I hate when he break my stuff but it allowed for some awesome custom armor.
Nice, much better then Diablo3 items :)

Here are some examples for Path of Exile itemization.

Man, TL2 and PoE have much better items then D3 ^^
 
Nice, much better then Diablo3 items :)

Here are some examples for Path of Exile itemization.


Man, TL2 and PoE have much better items then D3 ^^

The Open beta can't start soon enough! Loved the Closed beta. My only issue with PoE is most skills you can't cast while moving.
 
For TL2 this picture posted some while ago makes it seem interesting, and I'm sure they will have buffs for pets again, which is my preferred play style.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4361/qianbigimage.jpg

I hope the enchanter is back. I hate when he break my stuff but it allowed for some awesome custom armor.

Nice, much better then Diablo3 items :)

Here are some examples for Path of Exile itemization.


Man, TL2 and PoE have much better items then D3 ^^

Loot porn. It should come wrapped in a plain brown paper bag, handed over the counter to you with a knowing wink, accompanied by a raspy voice stating "i got the good shit right here".

Dammit I'll just deal with the guilt later.
 
My only issue with PoE is most skills you can't cast while moving.

Most?? I don´t know one skill u can cast while Moving, i hope they work on it.
Casting Delay/no moving while casting is definitely the weakest point of PoE, after the smooth D3 Combat.
 
Looking at PoE loot makes me want to scream into a pillow. It's ridiculous how far off the mark Blizzard was on itemization. Spirity's explanation may be cynical, but it's hard not to buy into it.
 
Gave up on D3 just before 1.03 launched. Got to Act 4 on Inferno but the awful co-op, terrible droprate/itemisation, and overall heavily sanitised gameplay just soured me to the game. But yeah, it's surprising they didn't add any end-game or perpetual content at launch - even just something simple like timed leaderboards would at least give players a reason to keep up with the gear grind.

Anyway, I still strongly believe D3 is very much a 'trojan-horse' sandbox for Blizzard to observe and experiment with various monetization/marketplace strategies (while laying the legal groundwork) for their next MMO, Titan, hence it being rushed to market when it was, quite obviously, not 'done'. Blizzard have strongly hinted Titan will be F2P and, if executed correctly, it could very easily be their monolithic cash-cow for the next decade. They've already played around a bit with WoW in that regard (additional services, pet store etc), but can't go too far because of the attached monthly fee.
 
We have already being over this. Blizzard sucks ass thats why.

The biggest issue was the level cap and lack of losing experience (as well as ladder). I mean the rest of the game is an issue too, but the fact that in d2 you could still play after getting the best items in order to level up to lvl 99 and be the best is a reason to continue.
 
Man, TL2 and PoE have much better items then D3 ^^

Black Sun Spear
Tepoztopilli (Sacred)
Two-Hand Damage: 136 to 150
Durability: 96
(Paladin Only)
Required Strength: 733
Required Level: 100
Amazing Grace
+(151 to 200) Energy Factor to Spell Damage
5% Chance to cast level 29 Singularity on Attack
+(8 to 10) to Paladin Skill Levels
50% Increased Attack Speed
+(61 to 100)% to Fire Spell Damage
+(61 to 100)% to Cold Spell Damage
-(51 to 70)% to Enemy Fire Resistance
-(51 to 70)% to Enemy Cold Resistance
+150 to Energy
Socketed: 6

Freakshow
Scythe (Sacred)
Two-Hand Damage: (675-727) to (1335-1407)
Durability: 74
Required Strength: 466
Required Dexterity: 466
Required Level: 100
+(10 to 12) to Necromancer Skill Levels
+(301 to 350)% Enhanced damage
Adds 250-750 damage
+(3 to 5)% to Spell Damage
+4 to Maximum Necromancer Minions
Random Resistance Bonus
10% Reanimate as: Ratfink
15% Reanimate as: Slain Soul
15% Reanimate as: Slain Soul
Socketed: 6

Man MedianXL had better itemization than any game ever.
 
it seems like i'm the only one still enjoying it. it's my first blizzard game really apart from playing a demo of warcraft 3 years ago and obviously it's my first of this series. but yeah, i'm still enjoying it. pvp is really needed.

I'm enjoying it, though I'm still on Normal difficulty, so we shall see.

The gear does really suck.
I'm level 26 but the drops I'm getting are around level 15 and are useless most of the time.

I've bought stuff from the gold auction house since it's so inexpensive compared to crafting, and now I'm pretty strong.

I enjoyed the heck out of D2 LOD but I'm a very different gamer these days.
Endless boss runs or farming is not something I think I'm going to do a lot of.
 
Loot porn. It should come wrapped in a plain brown paper bag, handed over the counter to you with a knowing wink, accompanied by a raspy voice stating "i got the good shit right here".

Dammit I'll just deal with the guilt later.

lol I'm laughing too hard, so true, Torchlight 2 the brown paper bag version. Too bad it's digital. That's a good idea if it was a boxed game though. Very funny.
 
Like the fact that on the off chance you can't find find decent gear for your appropriate level in Path of Exile, you can use some orbs and chance making your own rare gear. Even normal weapons have potential.
 
Man MedianXL had better itemization than any game ever.

I just youtubed that game, it's a shame that there will be no chance at modding D3. Mods to add maps like Starcraft 2 at least, or anything close. The community could have kept things interesting for blizzard, but they'd be making money off the community anyway and that would seem kinda weird.


Like the fact that on the off chance you can't find find decent gear for your appropriate level in Path of Exile, you can use some orbs and chance making your own rare gear. Even normal weapons have potential.

I did this a lot. I guess blizz wanted blacksmith to be popular like that but you don't have to level up the orbs and the white or magic item you find in POE. I would try adding extra stats to items just like in Torchlight. POE was interesting, I should have donated to get in the beta after open beta went down.
 
I just youtubed that game, it's a shame that there will be no chance at modding D3. Mods to add maps like Starcraft 2 at least, or anything close. The community could have kept things interesting for blizzard, but they'd be making money off the community anyway and that would seem kinda weird.

If you're interested in playing it and want to get the low down on its many nuances and eccentricities, this guy put together a full (and extremely extensive) Let's Play on it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP93Txj5FCU
 
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