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hoverX said:
You should like it then. Set up is about 15 minutes.. gameplay about 30-45 depending on the scenario.
The rules are really simple. My friend and I knew what we were doing about 2 moves into our first game.
The really nice thing about Memoir 44 is Games of Wonder's website has a scenario creator where you are able (for free) to print out really well made fan scenario's. The game comes with about 15 or so scenarios and there are 100's more online.
Also I am always amazed by how lame spells are in AH. Well not lame so much as almost never the best option. Whoever thought a non-negotiable Sanity cost for most spells was a good idea clearly had his own Sanity at 0.
It's funny I'm watching an 11-part AH tutorial video (quite good as long as you go in with a basic understanding) just for my own erudition, and the poor guy makes like ten mistakes and oversights throughout (most of which he clarifies in text pop-ups). AH is just brutal no matter how much you think you got it. Game seriously needs a DM. :lol poor guy even forgot to add a doom token.
It's funny I'm watching an 11-part AH tutorial video (quite good as long as you go in with a basic understanding) just for my own erudition, and the poor guy makes like ten mistakes and oversights throughout (most of which he clarifies in text pop-ups). AH is just brutal no matter how much you think you got it. Game seriously needs a DM. :lol poor guy even forgot to add a doom token.
platypotamus
Member
AstroLad said:
See I like the totally random sets. Occasionally you'll get totally dicked over, but I actually kind of like that, because it can totally change the way you think about cards, or even your strategy in general. Force experimentation, find new card combos. One of my most memorable games of Dominion ended with the winner having like 4 points, no one else even in the positive (lots of curses +shit for money, no one bought a single province!).
One of the random sets enabled my wife to discover a way to make the Wishing Well (guess which card is on top of your deck, keep it if you're right) seem like the most overpowered card ever, when normally it's a card that I would ignore the hell out of.
By chance, is it Grudunza's youtube tutorial?? I was actually working my way through these trying to learn the game to figure out if I'd enjoy/my friends could get into it. I thought it seemed like a fairly good guide but now reading your comments, I'm not too sure. Anyone aware of a better video tutorial out there by chance?AstroLad said:
Correct. I think it's a very good one. As an experienced player I thought he sort of assumed some knowledge at points, but maybe not. All or at least nearly all of his oversights he acknolwedged in the text of the video, which is great. Didn't mean to comment on the quality of the tutorial, which is very high, more on the fact that there is so damn much to keep track of in AH that even a super-experienced person making a tutorial will miss stuff.ToddG15 said:
Just a quick report on yesterday's 4th Arkham and Pie Day. Lots of people (say, 25-30), at least eight pies (I made two chocolate chess pies that turned out great, plus homemade whipped cream) and other goodies, and lots of Arkham Horror. I was in three eight player games, which included one person playing via webcam and mirroring the board with their own set, as well as two people who had lost their voice due to bad shrimp. No, really. GOOs were randomly selected and folks had their choice of 2-3 randomly dealt characters. Here's how everything went:
Round One: Yig - We decided to go old-school, as it were, and play a game with only The Curse of the Dark Pharaoh. With only 10 slots on ol' Yig's doom track, this one came pretty close to the wire but we were still able to win with six seals. This was a fairly straight-forward game, with no exceptionally zany hijinx to report. All in all, a good game to play while loading up on pie.
Round Two: Ithaqua - Then we added Dunwich and proceeded to enjoy a brutally short game, with six gates opening in four rounds, at which point Ithaqua kicked our collective ass. I was rocking Diana "Yeah, I'm, um, redeemed" Stanley who drew a flamethrower and Enchant Weapon as her starting equipment...but never had a chance to use the damn thing before Ithaqua woke up and ate both cards. We gave it our best and got Ithaqua down to 15 health before he wiped us out. Ah, Arkham Horror.
Halftime: Around 6pm we took a quick break to go enjoy the beautiful day...before going right back indoors for one last round.
Round Three: Azathoth - We kept the same setup as the last game, but with new characters. This game was a hoot, with the Dreamlands(!) becoming an absolute meat grinder that repeatedly sent people off to be Lost in Time and Space, most of the investigators racking up madness and injury cards, some spectacularly bad dice luck at amusing times, and, in general, the full-on Arkham experience. That said, I had a great run with Billie Holiday - excuse me, Marie Lambeau - sealing three of the six gates over the course of the game and managing not to pick up anything debilitating along the way. In the end we pulled through, defeated Azathoth, and spent a lot of time singing - including a rendition of "Living on a Prayer" that could be heard across the street - so a good time was had by all.
Final score: Investigators 2, Great Old Ones 1. Not too shabby! Meanwhile, other groups playing were having varying degrees of success, such as the team that spent nine turns being within one seal of victory (ah, gate bursts) who then woke the GOO and got within eight health of defeating him before being wiped out. Awesome. Still, a good time was had by all and massive doses of sugar were consumed. Here's looking forward to Arkham and Pie 5 when The Lurker at the Threshold comes out later this year.
FnordChan
Round One: Yig - We decided to go old-school, as it were, and play a game with only The Curse of the Dark Pharaoh. With only 10 slots on ol' Yig's doom track, this one came pretty close to the wire but we were still able to win with six seals. This was a fairly straight-forward game, with no exceptionally zany hijinx to report. All in all, a good game to play while loading up on pie.
Round Two: Ithaqua - Then we added Dunwich and proceeded to enjoy a brutally short game, with six gates opening in four rounds, at which point Ithaqua kicked our collective ass. I was rocking Diana "Yeah, I'm, um, redeemed" Stanley who drew a flamethrower and Enchant Weapon as her starting equipment...but never had a chance to use the damn thing before Ithaqua woke up and ate both cards. We gave it our best and got Ithaqua down to 15 health before he wiped us out. Ah, Arkham Horror.
Halftime: Around 6pm we took a quick break to go enjoy the beautiful day...before going right back indoors for one last round.
Round Three: Azathoth - We kept the same setup as the last game, but with new characters. This game was a hoot, with the Dreamlands(!) becoming an absolute meat grinder that repeatedly sent people off to be Lost in Time and Space, most of the investigators racking up madness and injury cards, some spectacularly bad dice luck at amusing times, and, in general, the full-on Arkham experience. That said, I had a great run with Billie Holiday - excuse me, Marie Lambeau - sealing three of the six gates over the course of the game and managing not to pick up anything debilitating along the way. In the end we pulled through, defeated Azathoth, and spent a lot of time singing - including a rendition of "Living on a Prayer" that could be heard across the street - so a good time was had by all.
Final score: Investigators 2, Great Old Ones 1. Not too shabby! Meanwhile, other groups playing were having varying degrees of success, such as the team that spent nine turns being within one seal of victory (ah, gate bursts) who then woke the GOO and got within eight health of defeating him before being wiped out. Awesome. Still, a good time was had by all and massive doses of sugar were consumed. Here's looking forward to Arkham and Pie 5 when The Lurker at the Threshold comes out later this year.
FnordChan
AstroLad said:
Well, the nice thing about Arkham Horror is that, while it has a lot of fiddly details to keep track of, it's as much about the experience as the actual mechanics, so it's not a terribly big deal if you miss some things here and there. Everyone can look at each other, shrug, and keep playing.
FnordChan
Finally bought Settlers of Catan a few weeks ago and finally got some people together to play a game. Man, we must socialize or just take too long, cause that One Hour estimated gameplay time is bull! With three people, it took us 2 or more hours. The next day, I bought the 5-6 player expansion cause everybody liked it, and we played a 6 player game that took almost 4 hours. We had a hilarious, great time, but does anyone else take as long as we do?
PS, I love Catan!
PS, I love Catan!
BomberMouse
Member
I finally played some Ticket to Ride for the first time today. My wife just wanted to keep playing Alhambra (great game, we still haven't touched any of the modules from the big box) but after some rounds I convinced her. She really liked it, we played two times in a row.
Tomorrow my mother in law will visit us and she insist on playing with her. So yeah, just as everyone said, TTR is a great gateway game.
Has anyone tried the 2/3 players expansion/version? Does the gameplay change significantly?
Tomorrow my mother in law will visit us and she insist on playing with her. So yeah, just as everyone said, TTR is a great gateway game.
Has anyone tried the 2/3 players expansion/version? Does the gameplay change significantly?
Diplomat Amazons is supposed to be among the most "broken" combinations in two player Small World, the theory being you can eventually capture a majority of the board and never have to go into decline, remaining perpetually immune from attack. The one time I saw it come up my wife took it... and I beat her handily with (of all things) Fortified Dwarves followed by Flying Wizards. Shrug.
The wife suggested tonight that we begin keeping a master spreadsheet of our wins/losses at our various games, so that in a year (or several) we'll be able to look back on our cumulative W/L records.
I reminded her that I suggested doing EXACTLY this, when we picked up our first eurogame, and that she said that was "a stupid idea." She has no memory of shooting me down. I should have just kept track without telling her :lol So now I'm:
1) Overjoyed that she suggested something so nerdy.
2) Upset that the data won't be "pure" since we've been playing Eurogames for a few months now
3) Wondering what the best method of keeping track is.
I've set up a basic spreadsheet but it isn't very elegant. We only have three games so it works OK for now. If many more games get into the mix (which they will, if this spreadsheet is supposed to last into perpetuity) then the SS setup I've devised won't work as well.
I reminded her that I suggested doing EXACTLY this, when we picked up our first eurogame, and that she said that was "a stupid idea." She has no memory of shooting me down. I should have just kept track without telling her :lol So now I'm:
1) Overjoyed that she suggested something so nerdy.
2) Upset that the data won't be "pure" since we've been playing Eurogames for a few months now
3) Wondering what the best method of keeping track is.
I've set up a basic spreadsheet but it isn't very elegant. We only have three games so it works OK for now. If many more games get into the mix (which they will, if this spreadsheet is supposed to last into perpetuity) then the SS setup I've devised won't work as well.
platypotamus
Member
GDJustin said:
I've got a spreadsheet I set up awhile back. It only supports Agricola and RftG I believe. Each has their own sheet. Then there is a master sheet with win/loss from all games.
I ultimately decided to make it truly universal, I'd need to go database rather than spreadsheet, but I decided to save that for later.
platypotamus said:
Huh... it actually sounds like this could be a nice utility / web app / iphone app for people. Some flexible (but still simple) program for storing and tracking game results. If it were on the web it could be database-driven and players could choose to allow their data to be shared with a central db, or not. Then you could see what the avg. # of points a winner in a particular game is likely to have, etc.
I'm neck-deep in projects at the moment or I might be tempted to look into the viability of something like this.
platypotamus
Member
GDJustin said:
Yep, that post is pretty much exactly what I've been thinking, right down to the neck-deep in other projects part
BomberMouse
Member
AstroLad said:
Exactly those, too bad Switzerland isn't very good. Might pick up Nordic countries if I ever see it online then.
Whifflebat
Member
Had the gaming group over last night and got in our first (3 player) Chaos in the Old World game. I really enjoyed it, though it took awhile to figure out the rules (you have to be in the same region to fight, not in adjacent regions a la Risk? *facepalm*). I was Khorne, but was soundly beaten by my friends playing Nurgle and Tzeentch. Looking forward to playing it again.
Broke down and bought Descent. Started to paint the 80 (!) figures this weekend; man, those hero figs are tiny! Will get in a game in the near future and hope the rest of the group likes it.
Broke down and bought Descent. Started to paint the 80 (!) figures this weekend; man, those hero figs are tiny! Will get in a game in the near future and hope the rest of the group likes it.
Yes. As usual BGG can be much more comprehensive about this but basically the problem with Switzerland is that it just become a card-draw game. So many of the routes overlap that the cards are just free points near the end of the game. Some might like this but we never got into it. Nordic Countries, otoh, sets up some huge battles for routes throughout the map. The map is just tight but still open to strategic maneuvering. 3p Nordic Countries is by far the most conflict you'll find in any TTR short of house rules. They also introduce some new mechanics that spice things up a touch if you are burned out on regular TTR.BomberMouse said:
So, I talked my 2 friends to come back over tonight for more RFTG.
We are all still trying to feel out exactly how to best play the game, but I think all of us were intrigued by the prospects.
It's funny... it is more initially intimidating than Puerto Rico because of the symbols.. but I think the game is actually much simpler.. and my initial take is that it has more strategy to it than Puerto Rico with the whole your development cards are your building resources thing.. plus you can take a bunch of paths to victory (produce -> consume, settle, military takeover).
How are the expansions to this one? Do they just add more cards or different mechanics as well?
We are all still trying to feel out exactly how to best play the game, but I think all of us were intrigued by the prospects.
It's funny... it is more initially intimidating than Puerto Rico because of the symbols.. but I think the game is actually much simpler.. and my initial take is that it has more strategy to it than Puerto Rico with the whole your development cards are your building resources thing.. plus you can take a bunch of paths to victory (produce -> consume, settle, military takeover).
How are the expansions to this one? Do they just add more cards or different mechanics as well?
I know neverfade hates it but I think other than that craziness, Gathering Storm really fills the game out. Adds a fifth player if you are feeling masochistic. Adds random goals like first to get to a certain amount of developments, or first to build a 6-cost dev, or first to get all colors, or most military, etc. etc. that really make the game fun when you are playing with 3-5. Makes Alien a totally viable strategy with Alien Toy Shop and just adds several interesting new strategic options. Also adds a solo variant that I've tried once maybe. Rebel vs. Imperium adds a takeover mechanic that sucks and I'm sure was implemented to calm down the Conflict Whores. Not required though. Even without that though I feel that the RvI cards add too much clutter. So many different ways to go that it can be difficult even getting the right cards for a coherent strategy.
StoOgE said:
I would never go back to playing without the first expansion, the Gathering Storm. It fills in some cracks in the original game where it seemed like some strategies weren't entirely fleshed out (Genes production, and Alien-only to a lesser extent). The goal cards are a new mechanic, and I think they really add some nice variety (although I didn't realize until much later that you only choose some of the goal cards randomly each game).
The second expansion, Rebel vs Imperium, while fun, doesn't really do much for the game as a whole. It strengthens military-only strategies (perhaps too much), Genes a little bit, Uplift a lot, and Alien a little. There are some fun cards, but none of them are really necessary, and so it feels a little like a bunch of fan cards put together in a pack (and in fact some of the cards are fan-submitted).
RvI introduces takeover rules, where you can take over somebody's military planet if you have enough military and the right card. While a good idea, I think the low probability of actually getting one of the cards to use it, along with the multiple types of military you have to keep track of makes it less fun than it could be. You can get caught up in an arms race to try to keep your worlds, and it can take away from the game. Apparently they are going to improve it in the next expansion though.
How do you all feel about card protectors with your games? My original thinking (with Last Night on Earth) was that it's a good idea to preserve the cards for future years and use but now that I'm branching out into more games (Dominion and Arkham Horror for example), I'm not so sure it's worth the cost/effort.
Thoughts from board game vets? Do they really make a difference in the long run?
Thoughts from board game vets? Do they really make a difference in the long run?
I bought a bunch after I picked up a couple of the rare and pricey RoboRally expansions and I was going to sleeve the shit out of ever card I owned. I really don't like them though. I got some good ones recommended by Magic players but I really don't like the feel and shuffling can be a pain. Also you do lose some of the aesthetic value. Companies are really good about replacing messed-up cards so I would probably never do it for an in-print game. OOP is a different story but sometimes they have wacky sizes.
I was introduced to Killer Bunnies this weekend and had a blast!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_bunnies
The primary object of Killer Bunnies is to acquire carrot cards, one of which is revealed to be the winning "magic carrot" at the end of the game. This is done primarily through the use of bunnies, which allow the use of many in-game actions. Thus, the game revolves around playing bunnies and eliminating opposing bunnies through various means (some comical and some violent, but the game art never shows blood or gore).
Each player maintains a hand of five cards and a run cycle of two cards. In each turn, players may play one card. They are given the opportunity to purchase Cards from the market, use very special cards that are in their hand, or target weapons or cards at another player. Then the player's hand is replenished, and the player flips over the top card (which is a Run card) so that the card is face up and visible to all players. Then the player slides a face-down card up to where all the new cards are revealed. Then, the player draws a card to replenish their hand to five cards, and places a card face down on the playing surface.
Cards may be one of different varieties: "Run" cards are the basic type of cards, while "Special" cards are those that may be either played normally, or may be saved for later use when put through the run cycle. "Very Special" cards are similar, except that the player may choose to play the card out of turn, immediately from their hand. There are also the "Play Immediately" cards, which are played whenever they are drawn. Finally, "Kaballa Dolla" cards represent the monetary currency in the game, which may be used to purchase various items at the start of the player's turn.
The game continues until every Carrot card has been acquired by the players. At the end of the game, a stack of smaller carrot cards, each of which corresponds to a large Carrot card, is turned over one card at a time. The last carrot card drawn is the Magic Carrot, and its owner is named the winner. A player, however, requires a bunny in play in order to win the game - if a player is without bunnies at this phase, their Carrot cards are given to other players.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_bunnies
The primary object of Killer Bunnies is to acquire carrot cards, one of which is revealed to be the winning "magic carrot" at the end of the game. This is done primarily through the use of bunnies, which allow the use of many in-game actions. Thus, the game revolves around playing bunnies and eliminating opposing bunnies through various means (some comical and some violent, but the game art never shows blood or gore).
Each player maintains a hand of five cards and a run cycle of two cards. In each turn, players may play one card. They are given the opportunity to purchase Cards from the market, use very special cards that are in their hand, or target weapons or cards at another player. Then the player's hand is replenished, and the player flips over the top card (which is a Run card) so that the card is face up and visible to all players. Then the player slides a face-down card up to where all the new cards are revealed. Then, the player draws a card to replenish their hand to five cards, and places a card face down on the playing surface.
Cards may be one of different varieties: "Run" cards are the basic type of cards, while "Special" cards are those that may be either played normally, or may be saved for later use when put through the run cycle. "Very Special" cards are similar, except that the player may choose to play the card out of turn, immediately from their hand. There are also the "Play Immediately" cards, which are played whenever they are drawn. Finally, "Kaballa Dolla" cards represent the monetary currency in the game, which may be used to purchase various items at the start of the player's turn.
The game continues until every Carrot card has been acquired by the players. At the end of the game, a stack of smaller carrot cards, each of which corresponds to a large Carrot card, is turned over one card at a time. The last carrot card drawn is the Magic Carrot, and its owner is named the winner. A player, however, requires a bunny in play in order to win the game - if a player is without bunnies at this phase, their Carrot cards are given to other players.
ToddG15 said:
Granted I'm a BG noob, and out of the games I do have the card games are the least played, but my gut says just to roll with it, and not bother with sleeves. AstroLad is right that with a rare game or something you might want to do something different, though.
My family has a deck of normal playing cards we've had for years - YEARS. Since I was little. They're completely beat to heck, with the corners frayed, several are creased, etc. And yet even they are still totally playable, can be shuffled, etc. And given the way most new-wave games work (you only use a few of the total available cards, each time you play) I think it would take a loooooong time for them to get so beat up that it actually starts to effect play.
I noticed it with my Copper Dominion cards, last night. Since we always draw from the same part of the stack, the top ~one third of them were more beat up than the rest. So I put them away, and we play with "fresh" coppers, now, that had never been touched.
I'm as anal as the next guy, but with Dominion, you're probably only touching ~1/4th of the total cards each play session, and how many play sessions do you really have per week? And even if you're playing a TON of Dominion now, is it something you'll still be busting out nightly in ten years, or is it more likely that it will be played with more rarity?
Undoubtedly the "smart" thing to do is to sleeve the cards. Players with sleeved cards will have mint sets in a decade. But I think life's too short to worry about that sort of thing. It's like people freaking over their favorite shoes showing wear & tear, or something. You bought them to use them.
Gatekeeper
Member
Astro, which company did you get your sleeves from?
I recommend this company http://maydaygames.com/index.php/standard-usa-game-size-sleeves-56-mm-x-87-mm-100-pack.html
I have no complaints about their sleeves at all, and they produce a myriad of sizes.
Justin: I disagree. Not that I would ever consider selling any of my collection, but when I'm looking at a used or antique quality is always right behind completeness in my priorities for considering a purchase. Also, I intend to pass on all my games to my children's children.
I recommend this company http://maydaygames.com/index.php/standard-usa-game-size-sleeves-56-mm-x-87-mm-100-pack.html
I have no complaints about their sleeves at all, and they produce a myriad of sizes.
Justin: I disagree. Not that I would ever consider selling any of my collection, but when I'm looking at a used or antique quality is always right behind completeness in my priorities for considering a purchase. Also, I intend to pass on all my games to my children's children.
platypotamus
Member
jason10mm said:Can't you track this with BGG? I only record games bought and games played (always so many of the former, so few of the latter) but can't you log in who you played against and who won?
Not for what I wanted to do with it. I really like stats.
My spreadsheet for Agricola records a bunch of data aside from just who won... basically the whole score card. So I built some formulas to figure out the average number of points in the various categories (crops, livestock, space-usage, cards), the min/max points, etc. I saw for example, that I had the lowest average points in livestock, but the highest in house/family.
For my RftG sheet, I was doing something similar (and similar to the stats run on the genie page for the online version), keeping track of achieving goals, starting planet, points from chips/tableau. Even with just my spreadsheet, it was going to be possible to figure out, for example, what percentage of the time the person who achieved the "4+ Developments" goal won the game (when the goal was in the game). Once I get around to the database, as long as I store all of the data of a play, I'll eventually be able to get any answer I want.
(It was mostly Dominion that made me stop working on the spreadsheet. For the stats to have any meaning, I'd have to track which kingdom cards were available for each and every game, and even before adding the expansions to the mix, this was far too inconvenient with spreadsheets).
Couple places, one of them was called like Dragon Shield or something and the other was Mayday. Definitely didn't have a problem with the quality of either of those (the Dragon Shields were damn stingy though). I'm just not a protection kind of guy. I have an iTouch 64GB that I love raw. Many many years ago I took the skin off my iPod and I've felt liberated ever since. Function uber alles and all that. It's totally a personal thing though. I don't like the look or feel of sleeves. Maybe one day I'll see the light but I doubt it. It helps that I mix up games a ton and will almost never play the same game three times in a month.
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Speaking of RvI I might pull the RvI cards from my set before PAX. F RvI. And yes Stooge all the cards fit neatly into a box.
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Speaking of RvI I might pull the RvI cards from my set before PAX. F RvI. And yes Stooge all the cards fit neatly into a box.
AstroLad said:
I know exactly what you mean. I've never had a case for my phones / iPods / PSP, etc.
The items do receive more wear and tear as a result, but these things aren't permanent fixtures in my life. They are replaced by something new before the wear and tear becomes a problem.
That sounds like a cavalier attitude and it's not as if I'm buying iPods and handhelds every year. It's more of just a general life attitude. I buy things to use them. I don't think of the things I buy as being FOREVER. I learned this from being a gamer. Used to fret over the condition of my GBA. Then the DS came out and I haven't touched my GBA since.
So fretting over the condition of my Dominion cards seems similar. I'm playing it quite a bit now, but I'll be getting Race for the Galaxy soon...
I'm kind of scared/ashamed that I can now look at those cards and it makes sense to me :lol That Teraforming card looks mad-powerful. Also could have a ton of influence on what sort of producing planets you put down on your tableau.. if you are going military you would obviously need to produce one sort of good.. if you are settling another.. and it would obviously chuck the produce->consume strategy right out the window.
But what the fuck is that purple star that you get during the consume phase? I don't understand
In other news, got my Dominion Promo cards and Leaders of Small World in the mail today
Probably going to force my group into a game of Dominion before RFTG tonight.
I sort of want the Small World mini-expansions now. I read a few of the race powers and they seem pretty interesting.. but it seems they are out of print now. I'll hit up some local shops and see if there are any stragglers. I can see an issue with a 5 player game where you would basically see most of the same races every time even if the combos were different... more races should add some more variance to the games.
But what the fuck is that purple star that you get during the consume phase? I don't understand
In other news, got my Dominion Promo cards and Leaders of Small World in the mail today
Probably going to force my group into a game of Dominion before RFTG tonight.I sort of want the Small World mini-expansions now. I read a few of the race powers and they seem pretty interesting.. but it seems they are out of print now. I'll hit up some local shops and see if there are any stragglers. I can see an issue with a 5 player game where you would basically see most of the same races every time even if the combos were different... more races should add some more variance to the games.
platypotamus
Member
Whoa, this RftG expansion looks hot. Prestige? I don't know anything about the mechanic and I already like it.
UpperCaseN
Member
I bought Last Night on Earth thanks to this thread, played it 3 times with my gf and we love it! Any opinions on Flying Frog's other game, A Touch of Evil?
Not as good, but then again I am biased being an Arkham Horror fan and Touch of Evil is basically Arkham Horror Super Lite so you may like it more than I. Maybe invest in some of the LNOE expansions? There are a ton and I'm sure you'd like them if you are such a big LNOE fan. Even I like them and I like but don't love LNOE.
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