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[Misanthropy]

.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Right, because of the education gap.

Whats more feasible, educating everyone on finance and health so we hope they get the message and make less babies....

Or just not let them do it until theyve proven theyre ready?

Certainly not the latter. That's just fucking vile. Government consent to procreation is one of the more disgusting things I can think of.

 

[The Frankman]

 

[jamesinclair]

Certainly not the latter. That's just fucking vile. Government consent to procreation is one of the more disgusting things I can think of.

I think the government standing idly by while their population starves to death is one of the more disgusting things I can think of.

 

[CornBurrito]

Tax children.

Tax breaks for no children.

I have no children and support this idea.

This is actually a bad idea for most of the first world. Don't most of the first world nations suffer from an unusually low birthrate?

studies have shown that people and societies breed less the more wealthy they become. if people really gave a shit about overpopulation, they would want a higher level of economic growth in countries like China.

Instead it's just easier to say that government can tell people how to live. Americans are amazing. Telling a gay person they can't marry is the crime of our generation and the govenment has no right to do that. Telling another family how large they can grow, who lives and who dies, etc etc is totally cool though.

Oddly enough aren't republicans more likely to support the death penalty?

 

[The Technomancer]

China handles this incredibly shittily but:

No government on Earth has the authority to place quotas on the value of innocent human life, or to treat life as an economic commodity that can be regulated and taken away on a whim by the state.

Is whats going to doom us in the long run. The earth is not an infinite resource. Either work on space travel or recognize that there has to be some population control.

 

[jamesinclair]

This is actually a bad idea for most of the first world. Don't most of the first world nations suffer from an unusually low birthrate?

If only we had boats and planes that would allow some kind of "emigration" and "immigration" scenario in which we could move people from overcrowded countries into countries that need more people.

 

[Devolution]

If only we had boats and planes that would allow some kind of "emigration" and "immigration" scenario in which we could move people from overcrowded countries into countries that need more people.

They already have immigrants moving in and they're pissed the fuck off about it.

 

[CornBurrito]

If only we had boats and planes that would allow some kind of "emigration" and "immigration" scenario in which we could move people from overcrowded countries into countries that need more people.

So your solution would be to ship those from third world countries into the first world?

 

[el retorno]

If only we had boats and planes that would allow some kind of "emigration" and "immigration" scenario in which we could move people from overcrowded countries into countries that need more people.

You really are serious......... you really are serious about wanting to ship people in from overpopulated countries and stop people that are well off from having kids? You're crazy. Nobody should tell anyone how many kids to have.

Also this thread is full of Malthusians who are dead wrong. The earth has plenty of room from more humans. Anyways birthrates decline as income rises. Income is rising in these countries. We will not in anyway need forced population control. We're inventing new ways to grow more from less every day. We also have genetic engineering which promises an ever greater supply of food. We're working on energy too.

 

[FutureZombie]

How about we don't make judgement calls on other governments since it accomplishes nothing and can only harm our relations with them. It's not like China is going to say, "You know what, you're right. We need to change our policy". More likely they're pissed we keep acting like we're better than everyone else. I cringe every time I hear "Other nations look to America" or someone saying our president is "The leader of the free world". That would piss me off if I lived in another country. Just shut up and run your own shit.

 

[The Technomancer]

You really are serious......... you really are serious about wanting to ship people in from overpopulated countries and stop people that are well off from having kids? You're crazy. Nobody should tell anyone how many kids to have.

Greater then two kids per couple is not sustainable in the long run. Period. And I mean the next thousand or so years here.
I don't know if that means telling people how many kids to have or what, but something has to happen. Hell, maybe it will be a huge famine.

 

[JGS]

So your solution would be to ship those from third world countries into the first world?

We aready pay good money for them. No need for boats. Middle class and rich would adopt boatloads and fly them here. That would be unsustainable too in the long run of course.

Aside from the political rhetoric, both Boehner & Biden are correct.

 

[jamesinclair]

So your solution would be to ship those from third world countries into the first world?

Temporarily, yes.

ideally, the procreation regulation system would have been deployed 50 years ago, avoiding the giant mess half the world finds itself in today.

You really are serious......... you really are serious about wanting to ship people in from overpopulated countries and stop people that are well off from having kids? You're crazy. Nobody should tell anyone how many kids to have.

You know what happens when birth is deregulated? We have 13 year olds killing their little sisters to play video games while there parents are out having fun.

The current system is barbaric.

It leads to unwanted and uncared for children killing each other, going hungry, and having terrible lives.

They were happier as carefree sperm.

 

[Devolution]

Greater then two kids per couple is not sustainable in the long run. Period. I don't know if that means telling people how many kids to have or what, but something has to happen. Hell, maybe it will be a huge famine.

Famine and disease.

 

[Misanthropy]

.

 

[remnant]

China handles this incredibly shittily but:

Is whats going to doom us in the long run. The earth is not an infinite resource. Either work on space travel or recognize that there has to be some population control.

One day the sun will burn out. Should we start rationing resources today?

Telling another family how large they can grow, who lives and who dies, etc etc is totally cool though

What does the death penalty have to do with whether or not a family should be forced to abort or give up a child

 

[fatigues_gasolini]

From my previous research, the one child policy was mostly in high populated city areas and they are letting up on the limit. Outside of city areas, there is no restriction.

I did a paper in a college class that looked at solutions to overpopulation. Personally, I wouldnt have a problem with limiting the amount of children people can have. After taking so many environment science classes, overpopulation needs to be higher on the list of things people need to take action about. The planets natural resources are already stretched thin and cant take much more.

 

[gcubed]

Wait, someone was actually supporting the One Child policy? I mean, I may be just a crazy libertarian but I would think the US cared more about human rights than that, particularly given the way China has historically enforced it.

Way to read

 

[el retorno]

Greater then two kids per couple is not sustainable in the long run. Period. And I mean the next thousand or so years here.
I don't know if that means telling people how many kids to have or what, but something has to happen. Hell, maybe it will be a huge famine.

Have you looked at Europe's birthrate? Rich people choose not to have many kids. We don't need to tell people how many kids to have, the make pretty good decisions on their own.

 

[The Technomancer]

One day the sun will burn out. Should we start rationing resources today?

There was no need for population control 500 years ago. Now?

If its not a serious issue right now then there is no way it is not going to be in the next two to three centuries.

I am not necessarily arguing for government population control. If we could I would say that we should improve the quality of life across the world so that people voluntarily have less kids, like others have pointed out. That's what we should do, honestly. And not in the "throw money at it" way we currently do.

My point is that you can't just sweep the issue under the rug.

 

[SRG01]

Why is most of china impoverished? Is it because the deregulation and policy changes that they allowed in places like Hong Kong have been blocked in the overwhelming territory of the country?

The Chinese force their people into poverty, and then enact horrendous human right policies in the name of averting some crisis. If North Korea did this shit, we would call them crazy. China does and their making lemonade out of lemons.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Seriously.

China's number one problem is to deliver goods and services to a country of its size. The government is better able to deliver services such as health care and education in the coastal/urban regions, compared to the vast emptiness of some Chinese provinces.

Also keep in mind that much of China's population is either agrarian or nomadic, especially in the deeper provinces. It's only been in recent decades that immigration has moved into urban areas, resulting in the burgeoning middle class.


Oh by the way, Hong Kong's economic health has nothing to do with China's economic deregulation. Its prosperity was on a parallel path and happened much earlier when it was under British rule.

 

[remnant]

You know what happens when birth is deregulated? We have 13 year olds killing their little sisters to play video games while there parents are out having fun.

The current system is barbaric.

It leads to unwanted and uncared for children killing each other, going hungry, and having terrible lives.

They were happier as carefree sperm.

The current system is largely deregulated and the average family size is 2.3 children and decreasing. Even in poor countries where women rights are largely absent 13 is an extreme situation.

 

[jamesinclair]

Have you looked at Europe's birthrate? Rich people choose not to have many kids. We don't need to tell people how many kids to have, the make pretty good decisions on their own.

Yes, waiting for everyone to become "rich" will work.

It sure is easy to get rich with 12 babies running around leaching off your inexistant savings account.

Im sure any day now all those people will be rich and happy. Any day now.

 

[spiderman123]

So why are we listening to the opinions of a tangerine. ?!


Better yet, why is a tangerine the speaker of the house?!

 

[CornBurrito]

QFT. I sometimes wish everyone could just think like a stoic utilitarian mathematician for just two minutes.

Is it bad if I recognize it is unsustainable but just don't care because I'll be dead long before overpopulation becomes a huge catastrophic problem?

 

[el retorno]

There was no need for population control 500 years ago. Now?

If its not a serious issue right now then there is no way it is not going to be in the next two to three centuries.

I am not necessarily arguing for government population control. If we could I would say that we should improve the quality of life across the world so that people voluntarily have less kids, like others have pointed out. My point is that you can't just sweep the issue under the rug.

from Wiki

In 2006, the United Nations stated that the rate of population growth is diminishing due to the demographic transition. If this trend continues, the rate of growth may diminish to zero, concurrent with a world population plateau of 9.2 billion, in 2050.[70] However, this is only one of many estimates published by the UN. In 2009, UN projections for 2050 range from about 8 billion to 10.5 billion.[71]

Your own chart shows the rate slowing.

 

[SRG01]

There was no need for population control 500 years ago. Now?

If its not a serious issue right now then there is no way it is not going to be in the next two to three centuries.

I am not necessarily arguing for government population control. If we could I would say that we should improve the quality of life across the world so that people voluntarily have less kids, like others have pointed out. My point is that you can't just sweep the issue under the rug.

To be fair, governments should be giving incentives to have less children rather than more and not to penalize (ie. take away existing benefits) when they exceed that limit.

Your own chart shows the rate slowing.

To be fair, the later data points are extrapolations. No one honestly knows if growth rates will flatline in the future.

 

[The Technomancer]

Your own chart shows the rate slowing.

Fair enough point. And yes, population isn't a problem in much of the "western world". Japan even has problems with birthrates falling too much. Maybe that UN estimate will work out. We'll see what happens to Africa. But I think there are going to be some painful transitions in the next century.

 

[Spokker]

The best one-child policy is women's rights and rising opportunity for women. Nothing else does it better.

 

[el retorno]

Fair enough point. And yes, population isn't a problem in much of the "western world". Hell, Japan even has problems with birthrates falling too much. Maybe that UN estimate will work out. We'll see what happens to Africa.

I understand that rapid overpopulation is a short term problem for certain regions like africa where it's a major problem, I just take issue with the fact that some people really think it's a threat to the human species unless we start forcing people to have less babies.

I think promoting family planning is a good thing though as it allows people to make their own decisions and it's been shown that more opportunities for family planning equals a slowing growth rate.

The best one-child policy is women's rights and rising opportunity for women. Nothing else does it better.

this. let people determine their own family size but give them options

 

[braves01]

Boehner is clearly spinning the GOP record here to make the WH look bad. Is anyone surprised?

Biden was right to show empathy for the Chinese population problem yet condemn the forced sterilizations, lop-sided gender ratios, and immense burden placed on the younger generation. Human population increases are a serious problem that must be addressed as resources become scarcer. It is clearly unsustainable at the current rate.

Of course, it will always be a thorny issue since I think most people would agree everyone has a natural right to reproduce. I don't disagree. However, I don't think the government should be obligated to care for all your children. After the first child people should pay more to cover the education and other associated costs of additional children, not receive tax cuts or other benefits. Sex education should also be mandated and contraceptives readily available to cut down on unwanted pregnancies.

But the pay higher taxes with extra kids idea make sit something of a class issue which people wouldn't be happy about either.

 

[Puddles]

One child doesnt go far enough.

Should be mandatory vasectomies when every boy turns 12, and then they can pay to have it temporarily reversed when they apply for, and are granted a license for one child.

Women, at age 11, should have that birth control implant. Same deal, when they apply for, and receive a child license, they get it removed for the required amount of time.


Child license application requires proof of financial stability, proof of education and a series of psychological and physical tests.

Shanadeus alt account?

Fist-pump.

Anyway, none of this would be a problem if we just invested a few hundred billion into radical life-extension technologies. Who needs to worry about taking care of retirees when Grandpa can still unload a bale of hay with a pitchfork at 95?

 

[remnant]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Seriously.

China's number one problem is to deliver goods and services to a country of its size. The government is better able to deliver services such as health care and education in the coastal/urban regions, compared to the vast emptiness of some Chinese provinces.

Which is why the Chinese in the rural areas have it so great right now. Which is why so many of the rural chinese move to the coastal cities and into Hong Kong.

Also keep in mind that much of China's population is either agrarian or nomadic, especially in the deeper provinces. It's only been in recent decades that immigration has moved into urban areas, resulting in the burgeoning middle class.

Which puts them at even a larger risk to the various quotas and rules that the Chinese still have on them. If they were allowed to produce freely, their wealth would grow.

Oh by the way, Hong Kong's economic health has nothing to do with China's economic deregulation. Its prosperity was on a parallel path and happened much earlier when it was under British rule.

LOL. Yeah no shit they did better under the British. Who the fuck do you think deregulated them. The rules that Hong Kong had were much less regulated compared to the rest of China becuase the Brits used Hong Kong almost solely as a trading port,before and after the rest of China fell under Communism rules. The light regulatory role was a big reason why they choose to stay independent. Do you even know what you typed?

 

[Buddha Beam]

“I’m deeply troubled by the comments reportedly made by the Vice President yesterday regarding China’s reprehensible one-child policy, which has resulted in forced sterilizations and coerced abortions and should not be condoned by any American official.

Ahh, there it is. You watch Fox News, listen to right-wing hate radio or read a few of the reprehensible right-wing blogs and that'll be the phrase you see being used over and over and over again.

Its almost impressive how mindless these blood drinking monsters can be in their lusty pursuit of power.

 

[JGS]

Population controls are a tough nut to crack. The simplest solution (Although brutal) is to stop saving so many old people.

You need young people more than you need old people. Now who would implement that though?

Shanadeus alt account?

Fist-pump.

Iirc, I'm pretty sure this would be too many restrictions placed on the man.

 

[Puddles]

Population controls are a tough nut to crack. The simplest solution (Although brutal) is to stop saving so many old people.

Best solution in the long-term is to stop the old people from becoming old.

We can't do it today, but in 30 years? If we put hundreds of billions into the research? I don't see an issue.

 

[Sibylus]

from Wiki



Your own chart shows the rate slowing.

Indeed. We aren't microbes, we don't have the time, space, or interest to cram the planet full of our own kind and collectively eat ourselves to death, and that risk becomes ever more marginal as quality of life rises. The real problem is raising it without being physically or economically destructive (ie war, mass slaughter, authoritarian population controls, letting famine and disease run rampant...). One way or another the growth is going to flatten, but if we take our self-assessment of being compassionate beings seriously, we have a responsibility to spare as many torments as we can while we're driving along the transition.

 

[el retorno]

Ahh, there it is. You watch Fox News, listen to right-wing hate radio or read a few of the reprehensible right-wing blogs and that'll be the phrase you see being used over and over and over again.

Its almost impressive how mindless these blood drinking monsters can be in their lusty pursuit of power.

To be fair the one-child policy has resulted in forced abortions and sterilizations. He's not lying in that quote at all. You're doing the same knee jerk reaction as him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...nese-region-must-conduct-20000-abortions.html

 

[WickedAngel]

Tyranny is awesome

So is cyclical poverty.

 

[el retorno]

Indeed. We aren't microbes, we don't have the time, space, or interest to cram the planet full of our own kind and collectively eat ourselves to death, and that risk becomes ever more marginal as quality of life rises. The real problem is raising it without being physically or economically destructive (ie war, mass slaughter, authoritarian population controls, letting famine and disease run rampant...). One way or another the growth is going to flatten, but if we take our self-assessment of being compassionate beings seriously, we have a responsibility to spare as many torments as we can while we're driving along the transition.

My point is that we're smart. we invent new ways for farm. we invent better health care. we've gone to space. We're not going to need those things. We're fine as is. We'll figure out and solve our problems. Malthusians have been wrong for over 200 years.

 

[speculawyer]

The Speaker of the House responds to Joe Biden’s apparent empathy for China’s one-child policy:

You couldn't be bothered to post what he actually said?

But as I was talking to some of your leaders, you share a similar concern here in China. You have no safety net. Your policy has been one which I fully understand -- I’m not second-guessing -- of one child per family. The result being that you’re in a position where one wage earner will be taking care of four retired people. Not sustainable.

Seems like a reasonable statement to me. Some people don't seem to understand diplomacy . . . do they think he should have told them they were fuckwads for that policy? Especially when you consider that they have probably had the greatest turn-around in the last 50 years.

 

[remnant]

Population controls are a tough nut to crack. The simplest solution (Although brutal) is to stop saving so many old people.

You need young people more than you need old people. Now who would implement that though?

Whoever tries to do that would be called a monster for trying to kill SS. Who was the last guy who even glanced at that direction? Paul Ryan?

I don't disagree. However, I don't think the government should be obligated to care for all your children. After the first child people should pay more to cover the education and other associated costs of additional children, not receive tax cuts or other benefits. Sex education should also be mandated and contraceptives readily available to cut down on unwanted pregnancies.

But the pay higher taxes with extra kids idea make sit something of a class issue which people wouldn't be happy about either.

But we should take care of yours? Is there anything more greedy?

 

[bonesmccoy]

I love Biden's Way.

Hey China, I'm not coming down on your policies, but man, your policies suck.

Some things that seem to have been missed:

- There has to be 3 children born to every woman for the population to be sustained.
- Our economic growth (in the West) is dependent on an expanding population.
- China's policy has created a situation in which female babies are aborted far more than male babies, simply because a son can earn more than a daughter.

edit: I'm pretty sure population control has been part and parcel of American foreign policy for some 40 years, if not longer.

 

[Sibylus]

My point is that we're smart. we invent new ways for farm. we invent better health care. we've gone to space. We're not going to need those things. We're fine as is. We'll figure out and solve our problems. Malthusians have been wrong for over 200 years.

This is also true, an immortal line of knowledge is quite the powerful tool and has allowed us to sustain our growth countless times in the past.

 

[WickedAngel]

My point is that we're smart. we invent new ways for farm. we invent better health care. we've gone to space. We're not going to need those things. We're fine as is. We'll figure out and solve our problems. Malthusians have been wrong for over 200 years.

I'm curious to know who "we" is and how "we" are fine, given that we haven't even figured out how to ensure that all humans have access to potable water.

Launching primates into space is far easier than finding adequate foodstuffs for 20 billion people.

 

[HylianTom]

Fair enough point. And yes, population isn't a problem in much of the "western world". Japan even has problems with birthrates falling too much. Maybe that UN estimate will work out. We'll see what happens to Africa. But I think there are going to be some painful transitions in the next century.

We're going to keep on doing what we're doing until we can no longer physically/geologically/mathematically do it. Whether it's water, minerals, top soil, oil, or some other resource, as soon as we start bumping our heads into one ceiling, things here on planet Earth are going to get very.. "interesting."

It'll happen in our lifetimes. Things are going to be rough, and it'll be a fascinating time to be alive.

In the meantime, though, our leaders, afraid of being punished by voters who don't like to hear unpleasant things like "grow the fuck up!", will fight to keep our way of life duct-taped together through any means possible. The phrase, "deal with reality, or reality will deal with you" comes to-mind.

 

[Piecake]

I'm curious to know who "we" is and how "we" are fine, given that we haven't even figured out how to ensure that all humans have access to potable water.

Launching primates into space is far easier than finding adequate foodstuffs for 20 billion people.

replicators, duh

 

[el retorno]

I'm curious to know who "we" is and how "we" are fine, given that we haven't even figured out how to ensure that all humans have access to potable water.

Launching primates into space is far easier than finding adequate foodstuffs for 20 billion people.

We = people. And access to water has improved and is continuing to be improved. So is access to food. Things are improving for the majority of the world. Bad stuff is happening and in certain areas it does get worse temporarily. but as a whole humanity continues to make progress.

 

[Admiral Bone to Pick]

I love Biden's Way.

Hey China, I'm not coming down on your policies, but man, your policies suck.

Some things that seem to have been missed:

- There has to be 3 children born to every woman for the population to be sustained.
- Our economic growth (in the West) is dependent on an expanding population.
- China's policy has created a situation in which female babies are aborted far more than male babies, simply because a son can earn more than a daughter.

Just worth nothing (because statistics are serious business):

- The replacement fertility rate is about 2.1, and in the West the only countries that have a fertility rate above 3 are generally in Latin America.

-Many of the fastest growing economies have low fertility rates (Singapore, South Korea, China, Russia).