Support NeoGAF

[Biker19]

Funny that Seamus calls it Xbone. He was there when MS released the first Xbox - one should think that he can still identify himself with the console or Xbox philosophy. You can clearly see how wrong their messaging was and still is. Xbone is no longer appealing to those who bought the original one or 360.

I agree. The Xbox brand died when the old Xbox team that made the Original Xbox & the Xbox 360 (such as Seamus Blackley, Ed Fries, Peter Moore, J. Allard, Robbie Bach, etc.) had either left, had gotten the boot, or both. Now the Xbox division is being ran by nothing more than a bunch of money-hungry, corporate suits.

The fact that Microsoft had turned their backs on the core gamers & sold them out (the ones who made the Xbox brand what it is today) by putting less & less focus on exclusives & tons of more focus on Kinect & media during the middle of the Xbox 360's lifespan, & the way that the Xbox One is being built as an "All-In-One Entertainment Box" over gaming is proof enough that the Xbox brand is no longer gaming focused, but corporate focused.

Why do they keep forgetting the PS4 is also a media machine, and that Sony has made a deal with Viacom (i think) to have their content on the PS4?

While it's true, the difference, is that the PS4 is more gaming focused, while being less media focused.

 

[Prologue]

Well he's right, Sony came back from 599 US DOLLARS and NO GAMES while Microsoft came back from RROD. So many people kept saying Sony was finished when the PS3 was flopping and look at it now.

Microosft managed to change most of it's shit before the console has even launched, it's in a much better position than Sony was back in 06.

All this stuff early in the gen in all likelihood won't matter later on.

I don't like how he compared the 599 situation with sony with the 1080p problem with Microsoft. The pricing with sony was a half year sting. The 1080p situation is a life long system issue with third party games and a good amount of first part exclusives. This isn't going to go away and it will be very apparent with each game release.

Some say the division should be sold off but its profitable. The only problem I see are the people that are in charge of the division. E3 and the months that followed could have went a lot more smoothly if they didn't keep shoving their foot in their mouth.

 

[Killing_Joke]

Pac - You should add a year of XBLG.
MS - Why would we do that?? They'll pay for it anyways!

Yup, sounds like MS. Meanwhile Sony gives away 2 ps+ games, 3-4 cross buy games, month of psn+, music unlimited, and a $10 voucher. lol

 

[Dragonborn]

Why not? When OG Xbox launched in '01 at $299, the PS2 - the weaker system - was also $299.

The Xbox came after the Ps2, so I already had Ps2. Bought the Xbox a few years later. The big difference is, while the ps2 was weaker, it had such a stranglehold and so many exclusives going for it. The X1 has no such advantage, it'd just be weaker

 

[Alx]

The whole design is compromise after compromise.

All designs are a matter of compromise. That's the whole point of design actually.

A dedicated chip would have made the console better and gave more benefit to having a non kinect bundle.

An additional dedicated chip would have made the console more expensive, or would have required that some cost be taken out of other components as another compromise.
And as a matter of fact, it would have made a non kinect bundle even less likely, since in such a configuration you would have a useless chip in your console, while you can still consider using the allocated GPU resources to something else.

 

[JABEE]

Can someone explain to me why the cable companies would agree to this? I understand why MS would want to do it, but what is the reasoning for a cable company to subsidize some other company's product? They're practically monopolies, and it seems counterproductive to push a product whose (maybe still?) primary function is not something they profit from and whose excessive use may reduce the value of their services.

Maybe nobody wants to admit the cable companies told them to shove it.

This.

I have yet to hear a legitimate explanation. It just an assumption that this is what MS wants, therefore it will happen.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Holy shit @ Pachter:

On Kinnect:

Yea

Pachter is real as fuck

 

[UNCMark]

Seamus is dead wrong(I hope) about mobile gaming eventually morphing and turning into console gaming, but I love what he said about current day Xbox Execs. They're running the business the exact opposite of how he and Allard ran it. Pachters story about conversations with Xbox execs gives valuable insight into why Xbox would have been completely fucked if Mattrick stuck around, and why it might still be with the other guys still in important positions.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Every time someone writes Michael Pachter's last name as "Patcher", an angel gets it's wings.

 

[killer rin]

Pac - You should add a year of XBLG.
MS - Why would we do that?? They'll pay for it anyways!

Yup, sounds like MS. Meanwhile Sony gives away 2 ps+ games, 3-4 cross buy games, month of psn+, music unlimited, and a $10 voucher. lol

Umm.. You get a Month (or three, I forget which was said) of Gold when you buy an X1 (also an extra month of gold if you make a new xbox live account(current policy up to I think 4-6 accounts on a console get that offer)). The Free Xbox Fitness till next year, Free Xbox Music Streaming for 6 months and next year the Games for Gold thing. So, its not like Microsoft is completely against giving stuff away to get people on board.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Umm.. You get a Month (or three, I forget which was said) of Gold when you buy an X1 (also an extra month of gold if you make a new xbox live account(current policy up to I think 4-6 accounts on a console get that offer)). The Free Xbox Fitness till next year, Free Xbox Music Streaming for 6 months and next year the Games for Gold thing. So, its not like Microsoft is completely against giving stuff away to get people on board.

They're giving away crap people don't want and products that they have no customer base with. Don't act like they're giving as much as you get with PSN+, you're getting new services that people don't even know about. It'd be different if they were giving away established services.

 

[danwarb]

Kinect 2 is good though. I think a lot of people may realise how silly they've been when they see the system.

The features it brings are useful and body tracking is accurate/reliable enough now to be useful in games, in general. Why would they take all of that out instead of simply cutting the price when necessary and offering much better value than their competition?

 

[bishoptl]

Umm.. You get a Month (or three, I forget which was said) of Gold when you buy an X1 (also an extra month of gold if you make a new xbox live account(current policy up to I think 4-6 accounts on a console get that offer)). The Free Xbox Fitness till next year, Free Xbox Music Streaming for 6 months and next year the Games for Gold thing. So, its not like Microsoft is completely against giving stuff away to get people on board.

Have you looked at what's behind the Sony paywall and what's behind Live Gold for cross-comparison? You should.

 

[HokieJoe]

Can someone explain to me why the cable companies would agree to this? I understand why MS would want to do it, but what is the reasoning for a cable company to subsidize some other company's product? They're practically monopolies, and it seems counterproductive to push a product whose (maybe still?) primary function is not something they profit from and whose excessive use may reduce the value of their services.

Maybe nobody wants to admit the cable companies told them to shove it.

Easy: to sell more cable subscriptions with a value-added service. Think of how US mobile carriers sell the latest iPhone or Samsung phones. They add the cost of the phone into your contract. It makes perfect sense when you consider the multimedia/TV integration features that MS is marketing with the XB1.

 

[killer rin]

Have you looked at what's behind the Sony paywall and what's behind Live Gold for cross-comparison? You should.

I've seen the chart. I know that gold locks everything behind the paywall and that in comparison its nothing compared to the offerings of PS (considering you dont need a subscription for stupidly simple things like apps). Just felt like saying that its not like you don't get anything with the box like he implied.

 

[eot]

Well he's right, Sony came back from 599 US DOLLARS and NO GAMES while Microsoft came back from RROD. So many people kept saying Sony was finished when the PS3 was flopping and look at it now.

Microosft managed to change most of it's shit before the console has even launched, it's in a much better position than Sony was back in 06.

All this stuff early in the gen in all likelihood won't matter later on.

They came back, but they also lost a huge amount of market share. That shit hurt them a lot.

 

[Balb]

I agree. The Xbox brand died when the old Xbox team that made the Original Xbox & the Xbox 360 (such as Seamus Blackley, Ed Fries, Peter Moore, J. Allard, Robbie Bach, etc.) had either left, had gotten the boot, or both. Now the Xbox division is being ran by nothing more than a bunch of money-hungry, corporate suits.

The fact that Microsoft had turned their backs on the core gamers & sold them out (the ones who made the Xbox brand what it is today) by putting less & less focus on exclusives & tons of more focus on Kinect & media during the middle of the Xbox 360's lifespan, & the way that the Xbox One is being built as an "All-In-One Entertainment Box" over gaming is proof enough that the Xbox brand is no longer gaming focused, but corporate focused.



While it's true, the difference, is that the PS4 is more gaming focused, while being less media focused.

I know the messaging was really bad for the Xbox One, but after the "180," I don't see any big problems with the console. Yeah their first party studios are suspect but looking at the year one line-up at least, there's no shortage of exclusive games on the console.

 

[FrunkQ]

They were all pretty correct... but I don't believe ditching Kinect is a valid strategy as will be seen as offering a "gimped PS4? for the same price and would not work. It also ditches their big major differentiator. Also future MS revenue strategies rely too much on it, with ads and marketing info, etc.

Later on they all tend to agree... the only was MS can dig their way out of this hole is to sell the whole shabang for the same price as PS4 and suck down the losses. That way a consumer sees themselves getting something in exchange (Kinect, TV, etc) for the loss of gaming focus. They also need to throw in a chunk of Gold to get people reliant on their services and weld them in for the long term. Money will then flow to MS.

All comes down to whether the MS corporate is willing to temporarily bankroll a loss leader.

Signs from the top are not entirely positive.

And Sony could be a bastard and suck down a loss to maintain the $100 gap.

Which leaves MS with not quite the business they anticipated. There is always next gen

 

[borghe]

This.

I have yet to hear a legitimate explanation. It just an assumption that this is what MS wants, therefore it will happen.

It works the same way phone companies sell you a $650 phone for $99-100 with a two year contract.

And it's actually an easy sell. Because so much of what differentiates XBONE is on that HDMI input as well as Internet connectivity, by having cable companies pick up say $400 of the XBONE bill for the consumer (i.e. a $99 XBONE) it a) makes it seem to the consumer like they are getting a great value, b) gets install base for MS, and c) locks them into usually a two year contract with the cable company.

And most of these companies have anywhere from a $300-600 per year retention amount for each customer, so $400 over two years ends up being a bargain to them as well.

 

[walltowall]

I think it was Blackley that made the point that Live subs spend more than PS+ subs. I would love to see a breakdown and analysis.

 

[Tobor]

Umm.. You get a Month (or three, I forget which was said) of Gold when you buy an X1 (also an extra month of gold if you make a new xbox live account(current policy up to I think 4-6 accounts on a console get that offer)). The Free Xbox Fitness till next year, Free Xbox Music Streaming for 6 months and next year the Games for Gold thing. So, its not like Microsoft is completely against giving stuff away to get people on board.

PS4 comes with a month of PS+, a month of Music Unlimited, $10 in PSN credit, and two free games right now, not in 2014.

 

[CF22]

I agree with Pachter on this one. Kinetic is not worth the extra $100. Plus now we know the console is weaker than the PS4. Microsoft should've said they'll give a free year of Live Gold but should've also gotten rid of the paywall for services I already pay for such as Netflix, Hulu plus and even YouTube. Live Gold is fine for extra services such as online multiplayer, the added costs of keeping servers running and things like that but why should I pay an extra fee for a service I'm already paying for?

 

[Slashlen]

Easy: to sell more cable subscriptions with a value-added service. Think of how US mobile carriers sell the latest iPhone or Samsung phones. They add the cost of the phone into your contract. It makes perfect sense when you consider the multimedia/TV integration features that MS is marketing with the XB1.

Mobile carriers do that because otherwise there would be fewer people with smartphones. Smartphones are really expensive otherwise and the carrier gets to charge an arm and a leg for data. I don't find it likely that there is a significant audience out there who wouldn't be interested in cable TV at $50 a month but would pay $80 for 2 years to get an Xbox. There may be people who pay $50 but wouldn't mind an Xbox for $30 more, but even then where is the equivalent of the data fees? Well, that's Gold, and MS is going to keep that money.

 

[ChosenPredator]

I guess Kinect can make sense if you divert it from the gaming section and utilize it to enhance something else that can be interesting & unique

 

[Slashlen]

It works the same way phone companies sell you a $650 phone for $99-100 with a two year contract.

And it's actually an easy sell. Because so much of what differentiates XBONE is on that HDMI input as well as Internet connectivity, by having cable companies pick up say $400 of the XBONE bill for the consumer (i.e. a $99 XBONE) it a) makes it seem to the consumer like they are getting a great value, b) gets install base for MS, and c) locks them into usually a two year contract with the cable company.

And most of these companies have anywhere from a $300-600 per year retention amount for each customer, so $400 over two years ends up being a bargain to them as well.

Cable companies don't need XBones to convince people to get cable. Who exactly is going to get cable because of the XBone?

 

[killer rin]

PS4 comes with a month of PS+, a month of Music Unlimited, $10 in PSN credit, and two free games right now, not in 2014.

The only thing I listed that doesn't come till next year for the Xbox Live Gold stuff is the free games. The fitness thing though starts the first week of December. Everything else is from day 1.

 

[Steroyd]

Kinect 2 is good though. I think a lot of people may realise how silly they've been when they see the system.

The features it brings are useful and body tracking is accurate/reliable enough now to be useful in games, in general. Why would they take all of that out instead of simply cutting the price when necessary and offering much better value than their competition?

Because at present they're not selling the extra value very well otherwise alot more people would have justified it on a tech level like what happened with the PS3.

Easy: to sell more cable subscriptions with a value-added service. Think of how US mobile carriers sell the latest iPhone or Samsung phones. They add the cost of the phone into your contract. It makes perfect sense when you consider the multimedia/TV integration features that MS is marketing with the XB1.

Except you don't get TV channels straight from the Xbox One but from a set top box that the cable company is going to have to give you anyway to get the channels, I'm just not seeing how this subsidiary is going to work out from the cable companies end, especially when it's a $500 console, when a standard cable DVR box would be more than half that much.

 

[HokieJoe]

Mobile carriers do that because otherwise there would be fewer people with smartphones. Smartphones are really expensive otherwise and the carrier gets to charge an arm and a leg for data. I don't find it likely that there is a significant audience out there who wouldn't be interested in cable TV at $50 a month but would pay $80 for 2 years to get an Xbox. There may be people who pay $50 but wouldn't mind an Xbox for $30 more, but even then where is the equivalent of the data fees? Well, that's Gold, and MS is going to keep that money.

Cable co's would have similar incentive- to increase their install base and retain paying customers. Plus, the XB1's UI and control interface is quite novel. Hell, compared to the average U.S. cable box, the XB1 is like the Jetsons.

 

[akira28]

Remember, Xbone is the equivalent to the N-word in some peoples' eyes.

Oh god, if someone actually said that...

 

[HokieJoe]

Because at present they're not selling the extra value very well otherwise alot more people would have justified it on a tech level like what happened with the PS3.



Except you don't get TV channels straight from the Xbox One but from a set top box that the cable company is going to have to give you anyway to get the channels, I'm just not seeing how this subsidiary is going to work out from the cable companies end, especially when it's a $500 console, when a standard cable DVR box would be more than half that much.

That's a legitimate point. It will all get down to the business arrangements they might work out.

EDIT: OTOH, a headless cable box without any of the UI features could fit that scenario. I don't know if such an animal exists though.

 

[Slashlen]

Cable co's would have similar incentive- to increase their install base and retain paying customers. Plus, the XB1's UI and control interface is quite novel. Hell, compared to the average U.S. cable box, the XB1 is like the Jetsons.

Explain this to me. Who is the person who does not pay for cable but is willing to pick it up along with an Xbox?

 

[walltowall]

Except you don't get TV channels straight from the Xbox One but from a set top box that the cable company is going to have to give you anyway to get the channels, I'm just not seeing how this subsidiary is going to work out from the cable companies end, especially when it's a $500 console, when a standard cable DVR box would be more than half that much.

You get live ESPN, and you will get live TV from Fios. You don't need a cable box. My Xbox 360 currently replaces a cable box in one of the rooms in my house and it works pretty well, all it's missing is a guide, which the Xbox One happens to have.

 

[HokieJoe]

Cable companies don't need XBones to convince people to get cable. Who exactly is going to get cable because of the XBone?

Lol, I would. I'm off contract on Dish now, and could easily go with another provider if that offer was on the table. Surely you understand that there are others out there like me.

 

[Sulik2]

Wow Pachter thinks MS is run by idiots. He is right to. Drop the Kinect or add a year of live, they need some sort of value add on the Xbone.

 

[HokieJoe]

Explain this to me. Who is the person who does not pay for cable but is willing to pick it up along with an Xbox?

Cable co's in the U.S. compete against Dish and DirecTV for subscribers.

 

[Slashlen]

Lol, I would. I'm off contract on Dish now, and could easily go with another provider if that offer was on the table. Surely you understand that there are others out there like me.

If it's taking share away from satellite, there is a time-honored practice for that: A discount for signing a contract. That's even better than an Xbone as it appeals to everyone. Are you saying you wouldn't switch for a cheaper price?

 

[PoweredBySoy]

And you guys hate Pachter.... PFFFFFT. He's purebred stud.

 

[Tobor]

The only thing I listed that doesn't come till next year for the Xbox Live Gold stuff is the free games. The fitness thing though starts the first week of December. Everything else is from day 1.

Perfect example of MS missing the plot. A $500 games console has a specific audience at launch. Core gamers. MS gives away fitness videos now, and free games next year. That's backwards, you idiots!

 

[HokieJoe]

If it's taking share away from satellite, there is a time-honored practice for that: A discount for signing a contract. That's even better than an Xbone as it appeals to everyone. Are you saying you wouldn't switch for a cheaper price?

Sure, price is part of the formula. OTOH, that time-honored practice you mention is a joke as far as I'm concerned. I shop the lowest price for the most content as normally priced. They're making that money on the back-end with your continued subscription to their service so you don't come out ahead IMO.

This is an option that could be offered. The market will determine whether it's successful or not.

 

[MonaKyshu]

Kinect 2 is good though.

thats great, im glad for it,but let me buy it when im ready and on my own terms.

its the same with paywalllive,

trying to force me into these things is only pushing me away, no matter how good they are.

its the same with all the DRM, they didn't want to take the time to slowly entice people to prefer the benefits of digital, they just wanted to force everyone into it. and then when we resisted, they acted like we were the problem.

 

[J-Rzez]

MS certainly has an uphill battle to fight. They have to convince people there's value to their product to justify its price. Unfortunately many aren't seeing this value. A less powerful machine thats 25% more expensive than said more powerful machine which also happens to offer more than enough options for other media experiences, which many aren't hidden behind a paywall. Factor in pressure that's been on MS as a whole let alone investors asking for the removal of the Xbox division, they don't have the luxury of throwing money at a problem anymore.

We'll have to see how they respond in time.

 

[Slashlen]

Sure, price is part of the formula. OTOH, that time-honored practice you mention is a joke as far as I'm concerned. I shop the lowest price for the most content as normally priced. They're making that money on the back-end with your continued subscription to their service so you don't come out ahead IMO.

This is an option that could be offered. The market will determine whether it's successful or not.

Lol, if you think discounts for a contract are a joke, you don't want to see what an actual Xbone offer would look like.

And sure, anything's an option. Maybe they should offer a free washer/dryer unit? Vouchers for free oil changes? Cheese of the month club membership?

 

[HokieJoe]

Lol, if you think discounts for a contract are a joke, you don't want to see what an actual Xbone offer would look like.

And sure, anything's an option. Maybe they should offer a free washer/dryer unit? Vouchers for free oil changes? Cheese of the month club membership?

They are a joke if you cost it out over an extended period. That's the formula I use. Then again, up until now we're only talking about how I pay to access content. Add an XB1 into the scenario, and if I were to deem it cost worthy, I would have no problem 'jumping in'.

Oh, and vouchers for free oil changes and appliances lack the UI and control features of the XB1, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

 

[Rlan]

Except you don't get TV channels straight from the Xbox One but from a set top box that the cable company is going to have to give you anyway to get the channels, I'm just not seeing how this subsidiary is going to work out from the cable companies end, especially when it's a $500 console, when a standard cable DVR box would be more than half that much.

Australia's Foxtel, which is the major PayTV thing, actually works through Xbox 360 via internet streaming, removing the need for the Foxtel box itself. It's not on Xbox One at this moment, but I imagine it will again.

 

[SnakeEyes]

Have you looked at what's behind the Sony paywall and what's behind Live Gold for cross-comparison? You should.

Quoted for truth. The difference between what you get (and don't get) access to when you don't pay for PSN/XBL is massive. Especially, as well, when you live in regions where what you get with paying for XBL is diminished, because I'll bet my bottom dollar that here in New Zealand, we won't get access to about 90% of the media functionality/services that is advertised as prime features on Xbone with XBL Gold as our American counterparts.

 

[Slashlen]

They are a joke if you cost it out over an extended period. That's the formula I use. Then again, up until now we're only talking about how I pay to access content. Add an XB1 into the scenario, and if I were to deem it cost worthy, I would have no problem 'jumping in'.

Oh, and vouchers for free oil changes and appliances lack the UI and control features of the XB1, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

If you think they would just add an XB1 to the normal offer, you are mistaken. It would be included in the cost of the service. Costing it out over an extended period would reveal the same problems you have with the discount. It would be no different than a discount, other than the fact that they gave you a box instead of the $ off. It is giving you a $500 item rather than $500 off over the life of the contract. There is no difference. They might as well give you $500 in oil changes, a $500 iWhatever, or a $500 gift card.

It makes no difference to them, unless there is some extra benefit to giving Xbox. And I don't see any extra benefit.

 

[HokieJoe]

If you think they would just add an XB1 to the normal offer, you are mistaken. It would be included in the cost of the service. Costing it out over an extended period would reveal the same problems you have with the discount. It would be no different than a discount, other than the fact that they gave you a box instead of the $ off. It is giving you a $500 item rather than $500 off over the life of the contract. There is no difference. They might as well give you $500 in oil changes, a $500 iWhatever, or a $500 gift card.

It makes no difference to them, unless there is some extra benefit to giving Xbox. And I don't see any extra benefit.

I know it would be included in the cost of the service (just like mobile phone contracts work). The difference is, they're playing accounting gimmicks with intro offers. They don't lose money on intro offers- they make it up on the back-end with people who continue using their service. Whereas, offering an XB1 (costed into the contract) means I would get an XB1 just like I bought my cell phone. It's the same model. Again, cable co's would offer it in hope of people seeing the value add to their service. Whether people actually see it that way or not is another question.

 

[Slashlen]

I know it would be included in the cost of the service (just like mobile phone contracts work). The difference is, they're playing accounting gimmicks with intro offers. They don't lose money on intro offers- they make it up on the back-end with people who continue using their service. Whereas, offering an XB1 (costed into the contract) means I would get an XB1 just like I bought my cell phone. It's the same model. Again, cable co's would offer it in hope of people seeing the value add to their service. Whether people actually see it that way or not is another question.

It's the same gimmicks. What exactly do you think is different? A discount and free stuff are the same thing.

 

[HokieJoe]

It's the same gimmicks. What exactly do you think is different? A discount and free stuff are the same thing.

TV integration. How you access their service. Using your voice or hand gesture to change channels, change the volume, view the guide, watch Netflix, search OnDemand movies, etc...Anything to keep more eyes glued to their service. That's their motivation. So no, it's not the same gimmicks. They would be offering a device which adds to the TV experience for some people. That's all.

 

[QaaQer]

TV integration. How you access their service. Using your voice or hand gesture to change channels, change the volume, view the guide, watch Netflix, search OnDemand movies, etc...Anything to keep more eyes glued to their service. That's their motivation. So no, it's not the same gimmicks. They would be offering a device which adds to the TV experience for some people. That's all.

so x1 would be exclusive to certain cablecos? no. So how would giving away boxes keep subscribers again?