Support NeoGAF

[SnakeswithLasers]

You guys are a bunch of bookie die hards but you aren't really convincing me otherwise. I literally read 2-3 books a month, usually 4-500+ pages. On a good month I can squeeze in more. I've been reading since I was extremely young, and I love the experience, not a week goes by where I don't pick up a book. I have a huge library of books digital and physical, and the library is a magical place.

That being said - keeping books the way they are because you want to yell at clouds is silly, there is a LOT of potential to have books evolve, and keeping them the same because of some misguided appeal to tradition is silly.

A book that could provide me with a quality experience doesn't suddenly become bad if it's interactive, if the interactivity is done right it can be amazing. If the author has maps and world lore - it could be digested a lot easier while utilizing the tech right. If an author wants to try to tackle different ways of writing books, they have the tools available to them - that includes things like books that pull info off the internet in real time, or books that can imbed 3D images or videos if they are meant for instruction. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, and an intelligent use of the tech would make me extremely happy!

At that point it's not a book, it's a website. These have existed for years now. Try geocities or something.

 

[Windu]

More explosions.

 

[Sloane]

At that point it's not a book, it's a website. These have existed for years now. Try geocities or something.

Yup, sounds like choose your own adventure on a website. Pretty sure those exist.

 

[The Technomancer]

The strength of books is putting all the lifting on your brain, which is a very powerful visualizer.

Audiobooks give you voicework, so that's less boring.

Honestly yeah, I get basically a movie in my head (but better because I can imagine impossible perspectives and stuff). I'm fine with books remaining just words

 

[GasProblem]

I don't think books are boring.

Books like the 'A Thousand Years of Dreams' like in Lost Odyssey would be awesome though.

 

[Ferrio]

You guys are a bunch of bookie die hards but you aren't really convincing me otherwise. I literally read 2-3 books a month, usually 4-500+ pages. On a good month I can squeeze in more. I've been reading since I was extremely young, and I love the experience, not a week goes by where I don't pick up a book. I have a huge library of books digital and physical, and the library is a magical place.

That being said - keeping books the way they are because you want to yell at clouds is unnecessary, there is a LOT of potential to have books evolve, and keeping them the same because of some misguided appeal to tradition is silly.

A book that could provide me with a quality experience doesn't suddenly become bad if it's interactive, if the interactivity is done right it can be amazing. If the author has maps and world lore - it could be digested a lot easier while utilizing the tech right. If an author wants to try to tackle different ways of writing books, they have the tools available to them - that includes things like books that pull info off the internet in real time, or books that can imbed 3D images or videos if they are meant for instruction. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, and an intelligent use of the tech would make me extremely happy!

We got something that does that already....

 

[Deleted member 10571]

Pretty much. Most books involving maps and world lore aren't going to be high quality, though, so maybe it'd work for genre stuff?

One word. Lordoftherings.

 

[IamMattFox]

One word. Lordoftherings.

One word. "Most."

 

[Enduin]

I would love to see books like this. Books can still be books, but there's no harm in having Books+. If it fits the story and experience you're trying to create I don't see what the problem with it would be. There already have been lots of traditional books that have all sorts of add-ons and what not to tell a particular story and present a particular experience.

 

[Kinitari]

At that point it's not a book, it's a website. These have existed for years now. Try geocities or something.

The terminology is inconsequential, you can call it whatever you like. But the functionality is there, and that's what's important.

I don't really feel like books HAVE to stay the same just because, and I don't think a book suddenly becomes bad if it saves me time by giving me a pop up definition of a subjective word - most quality ebook readers do that now for objective words. This interactivity is already there in ebooks in varying degrees - I am just talking about increasing the possibilities for a full range of genres - or creating newer genres, like an interesting mix between graphic novel and regular novel.

I mean really - why is this such a bad idea, instead of just saying "You're bad and you should feel bad" can someone actually tell me how this sort of thing is bad?

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Maybe an achievement system. "The best thing about books isn't reading them, its showing everyone online I did"

 

[The Atticus]

I feel as though this is like complaining that pictures don't have sound.

 

[Akuun]

If you find *all* books boring then you probably haven't found a book you like yet. It's like watching a movie you don't like, then deciding that all movies suck and that the medium needs to be reworked. Try other books.

Books are boring only if the author's writing doesn't click with you. Most people who grow up thinking all books are boring only think so because school tends to choose books that are boring for mandatory reading, and never spent much time looking to read for fun. The act of reading gets too closely tied to the tedium of school, and they grow up hating reading. Which sucks, because there are a ton of awesome books out there. A book that really clicks with you leads to an experience just as good (if not better, in some ways) than any comic book, movie, or game that you like.

Basically, go try to read other books and see if they click with you. There is a *huge* variety in the way books are written, so if one doesn't do anything for you, then put it away and try another.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

You guys are a bunch of bookie die hards but you aren't really convincing me otherwise. I literally read 2-3 books a month, usually 4-500+ pages. On a good month I can squeeze in more. I've been reading since I was extremely young, and I love the experience, not a week goes by where I don't pick up a book. I have a huge library of books digital and physical, and the library is a magical place.

That being said - keeping books the way they are because you want to yell at clouds is silly, there is a LOT of potential to have books evolve, and keeping them the same because of some misguided appeal to tradition is silly.

A book that could provide me with a quality experience doesn't suddenly become bad if it's interactive, if the interactivity is done right it can be amazing. If the author has maps and world lore - it could be digested a lot easier while utilizing the tech right. If an author wants to try to tackle different ways of writing books, they have the tools available to them - that includes things like books that pull info off the internet in real time, or books that can imbed 3D images or videos if they are meant for instruction. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, and an intelligent use of the tech would make me extremely happy!

What someone said before about books being so great because they engage your imagination is the reason your idea is so strongly rejected. With maps, character images, audio dialogue, and more being supplied to you, you're no longer utilizing your imagination to recreate these yourself.

I've noticed that my ability to fill in the gaps using my imagination often detoriate the longer I go without reading books. Trying to picture the way a character look, or the furniture placement of an office, is not only fun, but useful. You're forcing your brain think in a way that you rarely do when it comes to other entertainment mediums. Maybe there is no benefit to this sort of thinking, but if there is then you might lose out on it as these novaux-books have the potential of pushing traditional books out of the way.

Instead, you're left with a movie-in-a-book - at which point you're left wondering why you just won't go for a full-blown movie adapation of the book?

With that said, if you use technology to work within the medium rather than aping after the other mediums, then yes, I'm fully behind you. Like, for an example, further expanding the use of interactive "pick-your-path" story telling through words alone.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

One word. "Most."

One word: okay!

 

[Shabadoo69]

If a book is good enough they will make it into a movie.

 

[HamPster PamPster]

Maybe an achievement system. "The best thing about books isn't reading them, its showing everyone online I did"

The audible app has achievements. Not going to lie, I wouldn't mind if the kindle app had them too

 

[Arcteryx]

The only interactive book I'd like to see made would be something of the sort from The Diamond Age: some kind of fully interactive children's book(basically speak-n-spell + Google + Disney). Beyond that, nah, I'll just take paper please.

edit: To actually answer the OP: the reason why I don't want insanely interactive books is that for me it would totally remove the imagination aspect of the story. Instead of thinking up what some landscape looks like or a character, I'd instead be focusing on some graphic to relay what some artist imagined. On top of that, I think it would bring about a dive in writing quality, as writers would be writing more for the visuals and less for the readers imagination.

ex: Instead of getting a line like, "The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel.", we would get some hastily drawn visual of a grey sky. No thanks.

 

[Conciliator]

The problem with books is that they are not video games. I read a book a couple weeks ago and it wasn't like a video game at all! Total bullshit. The only thing that helped is reading the dialogue out loud to give it bad voice acting.

 

[cloudwalking]

You guys are a bunch of bookie die hards but you aren't really convincing me otherwise. I literally read 2-3 books a month, usually 4-500+ pages. On a good month I can squeeze in more. I've been reading since I was extremely young, and I love the experience, not a week goes by where I don't pick up a book. I have a huge library of books digital and physical, and the library is a magical place.

That being said - keeping books the way they are because you want to yell at clouds is silly, there is a LOT of potential to have books evolve, and keeping them the same because of some misguided appeal to tradition is silly.

A book that could provide me with a quality experience doesn't suddenly become bad if it's interactive, if the interactivity is done right it can be amazing. If the author has maps and world lore - it could be digested a lot easier while utilizing the tech right. If an author wants to try to tackle different ways of writing books, they have the tools available to them - that includes things like books that pull info off the internet in real time, or books that can imbed 3D images or videos if they are meant for instruction. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, and an intelligent use of the tech would make me extremely happy!

I get where you are coming from, but I'd honestly be worried, especially in the case of fiction, that the interactive bits would pull me out of the story moreso than adding anything to the experience. And, as someone else mentioned, I don't really want pictures in my novels because I like to picture things myself in my head, and the ability to do that comes from the skill of the writer and the prose he has created. A great writer can create a scene in my mind more vivid than even the most colourful of pictures.

There are specific instances where I could see it working better than others, for example in a mystery/crime novel, where maybe the reader could examine a 3D model of the evidence just as the protagonist would. But, then, the question is still -- what does it add to the experience? A skilled writer can pull the reader in the directions he needs to and make him picture or understand the things he wants them to, so what purpose does a picture or a model serve? I can only see it a) de-emphasising the writing, as it shows you exactly what you should be imagining, or b) breaking the immersion of the story, taking you out of it.

Like I said before, in non-fiction and educational situations it's a different story. I have a subscription to National Geographic magazine and they offer such supplemental content on the iPad. I enjoy it immensely. Being able to pinch and zoom and rotate in on a 3D scan of a mummy is pretty darned cool, and much more engaging and educational than just looking at a picture of it.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

I mean really - why is this such a bad idea, instead of just saying "You're bad and you should feel bad" can someone actually tell me how this sort of thing is bad?

Because most people who read know how to use bookmarks, so it would be unnecessary.

 

[tokkun]

I think there are a lot of opportunities for all sorts of genres to take advantage of this technology, even some sci-fi writers. Imagine if for example, by double clicking a planet name in some space opera novel, you get a cool sketch of what the planet looks like. Or even a 3D rotatable zoomable planet (that's big budget though). We can even think of books becoming more interactive - a resurgence of 'choose your own adventure' books would be awesome! You could do all sorts of things and I feel like this is a huge opportunity.

I'm not interested in such features. Using my imagination and being able to put my own slight personalization on things is one of the things I like about books.

Based on adaptations of books to film and games, I usually find the visual version disappointing to what I had imagined.

Personally, I would love it if books could link words to glossaries, especially in fantasy books with a lot of made up words. A lot of the time when I am reading a book I'm like "What the fuck kind of monster is a Blerblarg again? Let's go back 30 pages to look for it's description". Even something as simple and low tech as that would be amazing for me.

Doesn't the Kindle already do this?

 

[vidcons]

I want paragraphs to be .gifs. That could make them real intense. Maybe the text waves during dream sequences.

or jiggles like jelly when your kindle or phone gets shifted around.

oh man that'd be so cool

 

[Rocket Scientist]

Well boring might be harsh, but they aren't really taking full advantage of the internet's capabilities. With an ever increasing amount of people reading Kinitari's threads on tablets and phones and the like, I think his threads could really use this opportunity to become much more lively and interactive. I give his posts a pass because they don't have the tech to make themselves awesome, but his threads should really be upping their game.

A few ways Kinitari's threads could become more interesting:

1. Cats

2. A controversial subject, pick at least one, more is advised for maximum epicness:

- Circumcision
- Tipping
- Israel

3. This post is lame I give up. I tried Gaf.

As for the actual subject of the thread I would definitely enjoy interactive choose your own adventure style ebooks. I'm assuming they already exist, haven't looked though. If videogames can make stories with multiple endings, why couldn't successful authors? Shit GTA IV was oscar worthy. Where you at Stevie King? As for visuals etc, not really. There's a market for visualized stories, but there should be a segment which remains text only. Part of the enjoyment from reading is the image you build up in your mind.

 

[Danj]

The only interactive book I'd like to see made would be something of the sort from The Diamond Age: some kind of fully interactive children's book(basically speak-n-spell + Google + Disney). Beyond that, nah, I'll just take paper please.

Dang, I came in here to say this.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

The terminology is inconsequential, you can call it whatever you like. But the functionality is there, and that's what's important.

I don't really feel like books HAVE to stay the same just because, and I don't think a book suddenly becomes bad if it saves me time by giving me a pop up definition of a subjective word - most quality ebook readers do that now for objective words. This interactivity is already there in ebooks in varying degrees - I am just talking about increasing the possibilities for a full range of genres - or creating newer genres, like an interesting mix between graphic novel and regular novel.

I mean really - why is this such a bad idea, instead of just saying "You're bad and you should feel bad" can someone actually tell me how this sort of thing is bad?

Because you started a topic entitled "Books are boring." It's a title designed to be divisive for clicks. Take the good (clicks and responses) with the bad (people dismissing you due to your awful PR technique).

And yes, people will experiment more with ebooks as the format evolves. Books have been doing innovating things with the medium (House of Leaves is a good example), and will continue as the medium evolves and they aren't necessarily constrained by physical paper.

Aside from that, these pie in the sky topics of, "Man, someone should do something innovative, right!??" aren't particularly stimulating. It's easy to say that something should be done differently or better--it's hard to go and do it differently and better. Go out and make an innovative ebook. Then you'll convince people. Stating, "Books are bad, they need maps and pictures" isn't really groundbreaking.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

I think authors should deliberately employ the medium most suited to what they want to do. Conventional novels and textbooks are good, hypertext or audio-visual 'books' could be good too. Just like you can do different things with graphic novels that you can't do with conventional novels, ideally nothing should have to follow a particular format, whether that's taking advantage of new technologies or sticking with a more traditional format.

 

[injurai]

How are books boring? I find it hard to set aside time and get into them, but when I do I love them. Even if the book is mediocre its still 100x the story delivery of any other medium.

 

[NEOPARADIGM]

I know what you mean, OP. GAF gonna GAF.

On the odd occasion I sit down to write something with a word-processor, I always feel like I should be adding links, gifs and pics to what I'm writing.

There's a lot of room for books to join the rest of us in the 21st century.

 

[daviyoung]

Good idea but the techno books will have to exist next to the traditional format. Some serious compromises will have to be made and the first gens will sacrifice the storytelling for gimmickry.

Reading books is only boring if you're reading boring books. Content is king.

 

[noobasuar]

Books just like anything else take work to get into. Yeah it's hard to read a book when you've barely read shit in your life but if you keep developing the skill you'll learn to enjoy to read and see that it's better than other mediums that try to tell stories.

 

[TheKaeptain]

If a book is good enough they will make it into a movie.

Are you saying Twilight is good?

 

[Rubbish King]

A book that could provide me with a quality experience doesn't suddenly become bad if it's interactive, if the interactivity is done right it can be amazing. If the author has maps and world lore - it could be digested a lot easier while utilizing the tech right. If an author wants to try to tackle different ways of writing books, they have the tools available to them - that includes things like books that pull info off the internet in real time, or books that can imbed 3D images or videos if they are meant for instruction. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, and an intelligent use of the tech would make me extremely happy!

I get what you're saying, it could be cool for like... encyclopedia's

But when I read a book I like my imagination doing all the work.

If a book is good enough they will make it into a movie.

I can think of MANY books that have not been made into movies..does that mean they're not good?

 

[Kinitari]

If you find *all* books boring then you probably haven't found a book you like yet. It's like watching a movie you don't like, then deciding that all movies suck and that the medium needs to be reworked. Try other books.

Books are boring only if the author's writing doesn't click with you. Most people who grow up thinking all books are boring only think so because school tends to choose books that are boring for mandatory reading, and never spent much time looking to read for fun. The act of reading gets too closely tied to the tedium of school, and they grow up hating reading. Which sucks, because there are a ton of awesome books out there. A book that really clicks with you leads to an experience just as good (if not better, in some ways) than any comic book, movie, or game that you like.

Basically, go try to read other books and see if they click with you. There is a *huge* variety in the way books are written, so if one doesn't do anything for you, then put it away and try another.

Maybe I should clarify, I don't mean the content of books are boring, I mean the delivery of books are boring. I have a lot of books I love dearly, but I wouldn't have minded if the glossary were interactive for example - or if (depending on the book) there was an interactive gif or video (usually for the instructional books I read). There are a wide variety of possibilities.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

The audible app has achievements. Not going to lie, I wouldn't mind if the kindle app had them too

Heh, I shouldn't be surprised really.

My serious view is that one of the great things about book is the fact that they're low tech. That makes them more accessible to more people.

 

[Ceebs]

The fuck? Books are fine as they are.

This.

 

[CheesecakeRecipe]

The only interactive book I'd like to see made would be something of the sort from The Diamond Age: some kind of fully interactive children's book(basically speak-n-spell + Google + Disney). Beyond that, nah, I'll just take paper please.

My nugga right here, would love to see Stephenson's book in that way. Hell, you could even have some fun with Snow Crash and Cryptonomicon with the tech bits.

 

[xenist]

Music is boring too. Every piece of music should be accompanied by fireworks and a lightshow. There should also be narration explaining what the music means.

Books are not fucking boring. They are one of the best and most perfect creations of mankind. They are as perfect as anything is ever going to get. Holy shit I actually got mad in real life reading this. First person I ever put on ignore.

 

[Klendathu Club Owner]

Man, some of you guys must really HATE comics.

I think there are a lot of opportunities for all sorts of genres to take advantage of this technology, even some sci-fi writers. Imagine if for example, by double clicking a planet name in some space opera novel, you get a cool sketch of what the planet looks like. Or even a 3D rotatable zoomable planet (that's big budget though). We can even think of books becoming more interactive - a resurgence of 'choose your own adventure' books would be awesome! You could do all sorts of things and I feel like this is a huge opportunity.

While I don't think conventional books are boring, I agree that ebooks offer new opportunites to do some new and exciting things with literature. Especially with touch-technology. Seems like something (post)-modern writers should love. Technology offers a lot of opportunities to break conventional literary rules. Imagine what someone like Mark Z. Danielewski (House of Leaves) could do with it.

 

[besada]

This interactivity is already there in ebooks in varying degrees - I am just talking about increasing the possibilities for a full range of genres - or creating newer genres, like an interesting mix between graphic novel and regular novel.

I mean really - why is this such a bad idea, instead of just saying "You're bad and you should feel bad" can someone actually tell me how this sort of thing is bad?

It's not that's it's terribad, it's just an idea that a) has already been tried in the hypercard days of yore, and b) most readers of books don't want it. Books work fine the way they are.

They work exactly as intended, requiring the reader to bring something to the table. You're looking to change the nature of the medium to fix a problem most of us don't have. I don't mind you thinking about it or trying it, because I have no doubt it's something most readers don't want.

 

[Kinitari]

Because you started a topic entitled "Books are boring." It's a title designed to be divisive for clicks. Take the good (clicks and responses) with the bad (people dismissing you due to your awful PR technique).

I fully admit the title was meant to be eye catching, but saying "Interactivity in ebooks and possible methods for increasing their quality" REALLY wouldn't get anyone to read it. And I am taking the negatives no problem - I want to encourage all these people to give me reasons for WHY they think my reasoning is bad, heck maybe someone will convince me at one point! But it hasn't happened yet.

And yes, people will experiment more with ebooks as the format evolves. Books have been doing innovating things with the medium (House of Leaves is a good example), and will continue as the medium evolves and they aren't necessarily constrained by physical paper.

Aside from that, these pie in the sky topics of, "Man, someone should do something innovative, right!??" aren't particularly stimulating. It's easy to say that something should be done differently or better--it's hard to go and do it differently and better. Go out and make an innovative ebook. Then you'll convince people. Stating, "Books are bad, they need maps and pictures" isn't really groundbreaking.

I actually am writing a book (a crappy one, my first) and I have been looking at ways to make it interactive in intelligent ways, something like this thread would be a great way to data-mine good ideas!

The topic is about fostering discussion, I ask a bunch of questions at the end of my post specifically to encourage it - heck I even ask people to tell me if they think the idea is terrible and to possibly expand on what they think would be good implementations. The OP wasn't

"LOL Books are dumb, prove otherwise you losers"

You're not reading it right if that's what you think it was. Maybe the fault of the author though!

 

[Wiktor]

The beauty of books is that they're all text.

You start adding multimedia and interactive elements and what you get isn't a better book, but a crappy game.

Plus, if you add plenty of such elements, it stops being a book IMO. Which isn't bad on it's own. Heck. I love stuff like Umineko, but it's not a book anymore.

 

[Rubbish King]

Music is boring too. Every piece of music should be accompanied by fireworks and a lightshow. There should also be narration explaining what the music means.

Books are not fucking boring. They are one of the best and most perfect creations of mankind. They are as perfect as anything is ever going to get. Holy shit I actually got mad in real life reading this. First person I ever put on ignore.

I am okay with this

 

[Camp Lo]

Audiobooks make autobiographies fucking wonderful. Listening to Robin Quivers' and Lisa Lampanelli's audiobook with them narrating is orgasmic.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

1. Cats

This picture did indeed improve the thread! But then, it would improve any thread.

EDIT: To perhaps try and contribute with my post, I will say that sometimes the narration of an audiobook can really improve a book. The "I, Partridge: We Need to Talk About Alan" autobiography acted out by Steve Coogan is one of the best ways to spend five hours of your life.

 

[John Rabbit]

OP wants books to be webpages.


no.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Here's an idea (don't steal this, Kinitari!):

A interactive book that fights you.
Basically, you have some level of interactivity going, in that you can change the dialogues at certain points, and look up information in a dictionary. Well, as you continue to do this, hoping to solve the mystery (it'll be a weird-fiction detective), suddenly the text change and the book itself stops you from reaching the last page. So you must back-track, change key-lines and paragraphs, and try to circumvent the obstacle the book has put up, while the book is simultaneously following your changes and mocking you in the text.

 

[Ducarmel]

Are there any tools or documentation to experiment with this. I would actually be interested to see if I could do a text adventure game or something.

I know that is not actually a book but I think it would be cool to see if there is an audience for interactive fiction.

edit: found this looks like a good place to start


Create rich-layout publications in EPUB 3 with HTML5, CSS3, and MathML

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-richlayoutepub/index.html

 

[Green Wiggly]

I think the problem plaguing books today is a distinct lack of advertising and DRM.

 

[Kinitari]

Here's an idea (don't steal this, Kinitari!):

A interactive book that fights you.
Basically, you have some level of interactivity going, in that you can change the dialogues at certain points, and look up information in a dictionary. Well, as you continue to do this, hoping to solve the mystery (it'll be a weird-fiction detective), suddenly the text change and the book itself stops you from reaching the last page. So you must back-track, change key-lines and paragraphs, and try to circumvent the obstacle the book has put up, while the book is simultaneously following your changes and mocking you in the text.

Stealing it as we speak, thanks bro.