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Books are boring. How could they be better?

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How are comics more interactive than an ordinary book of prose? Admittedly, I haven't kept up with them, but are these not just print on a page, or an image on a display device? Nobody's giving them a pass, if so, because there's nothing to give them a pass for.
 
Books aren't boring. They are incredible. I can't believe an adult would seriously call books boring.

What I find interesting is that I don't think many people in this thread are upset at the idea of comics, so I am not sure why they are upset at the idea of other forms of interactive book-media.

Because your topic stated books are boring and need to be improved, comics are a completely separate art form than books
 
How are comics more interactive than an ordinary book of prose? Admittedly, I haven't kept up with them, but are these not just print on a page, or an image on a display device? Nobody's giving them a pass, if so, because there's nothing to give them a pass for.

Well - some digital comics are a little more animated now, but I think it's more about some people feeling as though things like pictures detract from a book, because it 'doesn't allow you to utilize your imagination'. I think my issue with this is that you could probably make the argument that high quality descriptions of things don't let you utilize your imagination as well - that utilizing your imagination isn't strictly about visualizing a character or a map, or figuring our what colour something is.

That some line would be crossed if I had a map where I could tap to see a quick animation of troop movements, or maybe just character movements wouldn't detract from the experience of reading - and it very well has the opportunity to enrich it.

Books aren't boring. They are incredible. I can't believe an adult would seriously call books boring.

Because your topic stated books are boring and need to be improved, comics are a completely separate art form than books

Give my OP, and thread in general a better read - I don't think you quite are getting what I am saying here - because it's not what you are describing. 'Books' in my head cover everything from comics to manuals.
 
How are comics more interactive than an ordinary book of prose? Admittedly, I haven't kept up with them, but are these not just print on a page, or an image on a display device? Nobody's giving them a pass, if so, because there's nothing to give them a pass for.

There's two ways of looking at it, I guess. One would be it's just prose printed on pictures to tell the tale. The other way, which I see it really, is that both the dialogue flows while the pictures themselves are dynamic. Similar to how there are now motion comics, you can easily see how the static pictures can be animated, thus giving a reader the chance to interact while they read.

I guess it's like when a kid reads a comic, they'll often read out loud and say sound effects while maybe mimicking what's on the page. To me, that's how people can interact with it - though perhaps I'm wording it strange, so sorry in advance.
 
Give my OP, and thread in general a better read - I don't think you quite are getting what I am saying here - because it's not what you are describing. 'Books' in my head cover everything from comics to manuals.

Well, a book of prose (novel, novella, short story, etc) the most common form of book is not the same as a comic book by any shape or form. No more similar than a movie is to a album. The point of a book is that it leaves everything up to the reader's imagination with their guide being only the written word. It's like saying paintings are boring and need to have interactive elements to improve them.
 
Well, a book of prose (novel, novella, short story, etc) the traditional form of book is not the same as a comic book by any shape or form. No more similar than a movie is to a album.

The point of a book is that it leaves everything up to the reader's imagination with their guide being only the written word.

It's like saying paintings are boring and need to have interactive elements to improve them.

So let me prod at you a little bit. Do you think books that have occasional illustrations (First book of the Stormlight Archive comes to mind) or books that have maps throughout the novel, detract from the quality of book? That the author should not utilize these objects in their novels?
 
So let me prod at you a little bit. Do you think books that have occasional illustrations (First book of the Stormlight Archive comes to mind) or books that have maps throughout the novel, detract from the quality of book? That the author should not utilize these objects in their novels?

And let me prod at you (and I know I'm butting in). But do you think the need for those elements arose organically, and the author or publisher chose to use them to address some specific need—or do you think the author simply wanted to use the object because it was cool?
 
So let me prod at you a little bit. Do you think books that have occasional illustrations (First book of the Stormlight Archive comes to mind) or books that have maps throughout the novel, detract from the quality of book? That the author should not utilize these objects in their novels?

There is a world of difference between the occasional chapter art than interactive movies you would agree no?

Not to mention e-readers and books themselves would never be able to incorporate such elements, only tablets. And tablets aren't going to control the book market. Especially not epub, Amazon dominates that world.


That leaves only a small part of the book market to be able to include such elements which severely hampers their ability to take off. Most readers don't read on iPads.

E-reader readers buy a lot more books than a tablet reader, at least for Amazon. Tablet readers tend to be just casual readers.

Not to mention very few authors would have any ability to create interactive videos, they'd have to rely on a publisher to do all of that. And you know how many authors want to rely on publishers to be involved in the pure creative side of the book creation? Not very many to put it lightly.


The nature of how books are consumed and the nature of how authors create books makes what you suggest very impossible unless you feel that book authorship need to become a team based effort and devoted readers need to switch from reading books on e-readers and onto tablets.
 
So let me prod at you a little bit. Do you think books that have occasional illustrations (First book of the Stormlight Archive comes to mind) or books that have maps throughout the novel, detract from the quality of book? That the author should not utilize these objects in their novels?

Sorry to intervene, but this is different.

For example, I was reading throughout the summer, the Name of the Rose, by Umberto Ecco. The book was amazing, but at some point, when the writer was explaining an extremely complex architectural structure, I got lost. Few pages later on, a relevant sketch was given, and the reading experience improved.

Also, and this is another example, in a book that i read, the writer mentioned a painting, and he started comparing it with a situation. Now, I could google the name of the painting or the painter, but it would be much easier for me just to have an image of the painting somewhere in the book, as it happened. (for the record, this happened, in Julian Barnes' The History of the Words in 10.5 Chapters, and i'm talking about the Medusa painting).

So, I believe books that have a kind of map, or other illustrations are not his point. Or maybe I'm wrong. I do believe though, that sometimes it's helpful.
 
I think there are a lot of opportunities for all sorts of genres to take advantage of this technology, even some sci-fi writers. Imagine if for example, by double clicking a planet name in some space opera novel, you get a cool sketch of what the planet looks like. Or even a 3D rotatable zoomable planet (that's big budget though).

So basically, annotations. There's room for extratextual stuff to improve, with digital formats, but it'll always be restricted by the fact that writing tends to be a solitary affair, and each layer of interactivity is one more strata of complexity that the creator just can't deal with.

We can even think of books becoming more interactive - a resurgence of 'choose your own adventure' books would be awesome! You could do all sorts of things and I feel like this is a huge opportunity.

What makes that different from stuff that's already out there like visual novels?
 
What makes that different from stuff that's already out there like visual novels?

Yeah, we have interactive books and books with media. No one buys them because no one wants them (except for the OP and a maybe a tiny niche).

He is asking for radical change in a medium where the creators don't want a change nor do the consumers want a change (both consumers of dead tree books and the e-book variety).

He wants change in a place no one else is asking for a change and no one on the creative sides wants to make a change. It's a battle he lost before he even started.
 
Cost is a big issue here. Some things, like being able to click a made-up word and see a glossary entry, are easy and should be done. This is the sort of stuff that basically exists now in lots of print books, except without having to page through to an appendix. Smart connectivity with the internet would also be nice, in something like the way Kindle now automatically incorporates a dictionary. If I tap a proper noun, like the name of a painting (to use persongr's example), the ereading app can provide me with context. None of this is very involved.

However, when you start talking about animations and the like, you're talking about real money. A major advantage of the format is the really low production cost, which is possible because one person working alone can write a book. Comic books are a lot more expensive for the same amount of plot precisely because they require things like artists.
 
And let me prod at you (and I know I'm butting in). But do you think the need for those elements arose organically, and the author or publisher chose to use them to address some specific need—or do you think the author simply wanted to use the object because it was cool?

The latter - why world the author "need" to include pictures or maps? He could just use text.
 
I would like books to remain mostly words but also have more character art, location art, maps and so on.

I don't want for them to lose what they are I just want that art to be added to books. So take a book the way it is but it also has that additional art in it. I would prefer it, personally, of course the book would still have an enormous number of stuff that are not depicted in any picture.
 
There is a world of difference between the occasional chapter art than interactive movies you would agree no?

Sure, but why does that matter? I am simply talking about the introduction of non-text elements into novels - why are pictures okay but a picture that moves suddenly going to far? Why are descriptions okay, but a description that you can call up by tapping on a name suddenly going to far? I am not saying that books should all be movies with some text - and I think I make that extremely clear.

Not to mention e-readers and books themselves would never be able to incorporate such elements, only tablets. And tablets aren't going to control the book market. Especially not epub, Amazon dominates that world.

ereaders are evolving, and some already have no problems with rich media.

That leaves only a small part of the book market to be able to include such elements which severely hampers their ability to take off. Most readers don't read on iPads.

E-reader readers buy a lot more books than a tablet reader, at least for Amazon. Tablet readers tend to be just casual readers.

Not to mention very few authors would have any ability to create interactive videos, they'd have to rely on a publisher to do all of that. And you know how many authors want to rely on publishers to be involved in the pure creative side of the book creation? Not very many to put it lightly.

None of this really has anything to do with the original point you were making, but I mostly agree - that the infrastructure needs to be there - but the infrastructure is most definitely growing.

The nature of how books are consumed and the nature of how authors create books makes what you suggest very impossible unless you feel that book authorship need to become a team based effort and devoted readers need to switch from reading books on e-readers and onto tablets.
What am I even suggesting? I feel like I don't know what you think I am suggesting right now.


Sorry to intervene, but this is different.

For example, I was reading throughout the summer, the Name of the Rose, by Umberto Ecco. The book was amazing, but at some point, when the writer was explaining an extremely complex architectural structure, I got lost. Few pages later on, a relevant sketch was given, and the reading experience improved.

Also, and this is another example, in a book that i read, the writer mentioned a painting, and he started comparing it with a situation. Now, I could google the name of the painting or the painter, but it would be much easier for me just to have an image of the painting somewhere in the book, as it happened. (for the record, this happened, in Julian Barnes' The History of the Words in 10.5 Chapters, and i'm talking about the Medusa painting).

So, I believe books that have a kind of map, or other illustrations are not his point. Or maybe I'm wrong. I do believe though, that sometimes it's helpful.

How is that different than what I am talking about? He painted a very strong line, and I am trying to simply push him past that boundry - if he gives room to maps, why not maps that animate a little bit? If he gives room to that, why not descriptions you can click on? If room to that, where exactly is the line drawn?

So basically, annotations. There's room for extratextual stuff to improve, with digital formats, but it'll always be restricted by the fact that writing tends to be a solitary affair, and each layer of interactivity is one more strata of complexity that the creator just can't deal with.

Which is why I think the tools need to be there to really support authors if they want to get more complex, which is something that is being worked on.

What makes that different from stuff that's already out there like visual novels?

Execution. That's not to say that interactive novels do not exist - but HOW they are integrated into books can change with the technology out there.
 
I cannot read fiction anymore. I keep trying to finish the Dark Tower series. I lose interest around 1/4 into book 5.

Meanwhile I devour non-fiction books. Tell me more about the origins of life, and the inner workings of the human mind! I can't get enough of it!
 
The latter - why world the author "need" to include pictures or maps? He could just use text.

You don't think those elements were chosen because they communicate something more efficiently than text could? You literally think that illustrations and MAPS within a text only exist because let's throw illustrations and maps in there? Are you playing devil's advocate right now?
 
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Well boring might be harsh, but they aren't really taking full advantage of their technological capabilities. With an ever increasing amount of people reading books on tablets and phones and the like, I think books could really use this opportunity to become much more lively and interactive. I give paper books a pass because they don't have the tech to make themselves awesome, but ebooks should really be upping their game.

I think ePUB3 is the most capable technology at delivering what I am talking about. Good explanation for what ePUB3 is


Basically, ePUB3 makes books more 'programmable'. I think the difficulty here is that authors aren't generally accustomed to programming their books - mostly just writing them, so the tools really need to be there to really make it easy for authors. That or some startups need to appear that help authors convert their books into something more interactive (awesome company idea?).

Apple really started the push to more interactive books last year with their talks about providing interactive text books for tablets, and I think that's the sort of direction books should be heading into.

I think there are a lot of opportunities for all sorts of genres to take advantage of this technology, even some sci-fi writers. Imagine if for example, by double clicking a planet name in some space opera novel, you get a cool sketch of what the planet looks like. Or even a 3D rotatable zoomable planet (that's big budget though). We can even think of books becoming more interactive - a resurgence of 'choose your own adventure' books would be awesome! You could do all sorts of things and I feel like this is a huge opportunity.

What does GAF think? Should books stay boring? Do you know of any good interactive books? Do you think ePUB3 is a good platform for this, or something else? What would you like to see in interactive books if you could choose? Let's talk about it.

Personally, I would love it if books could link words to glossaries, especially in fantasy books with a lot of made up words. A lot of the time when I am reading a book I'm like "What the fuck kind of monster is a Blerblarg again? Let's go back 30 pages to look for it's description". Even something as simple and low tech as that would be amazing for me.

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I cannot read fiction anymore. I keep trying to finish the Dark Tower series. I lose interest around 1/4 into book 5.

Meanwhile I devour non-fiction books. Tell me more about the origins of life, and the inner workings of the human mind! I can't get enough of it!

Coincidentally, I'm about to be on my way to purchase book 5 of the Dark Tower.
Poor Susan! T_T
 
You don't think those elements were chosen because they communicate something more efficiently than text could? You literally think that illustrations and MAPS within a text only exist because let's throw illustrations and maps in there? Are you playing devil's advocate right now?

Not really - I have no idea what the authors motives were in the book I mentioned. But using your original premise, it was entirely possible for the author to just use a description for some if not all of those images, and there always was a description - but the author wanted to enrich the content of his books so he included illustrations.

If an author wants to enrich the content of his book, and adds a map that when you tap on, shows troop movements - he didn't HAVE to add that, but he had the capability and thought it would be cool, so he did it.

In regards to being more efficient, it's more efficient to have a 3D rendering of a make believe animal than to painstakingly describe it - wouldn't you say?
 
How is that different than what I am talking about? He painted a very strong line, and I am trying to simply push him past that boundry - if he gives room to maps, why not maps that animate a little bit? If he gives room to that, why not descriptions you can click on? If room to that, where exactly is the line drawn?

It is, because the examples that I mentioned consisted of one picture/map in books of over 400 pages. You seem to want a multimedia type of book, with pictures or maps of every new environment introduced, hand-drawn sketches of characters and so on.

I'm not against this kind of expansion, but I prefer the medium to stay in such position that encourages imagination.
 
I'd tell OP how ridiculous I think he is but GAF doesn't support HTML5, Flash, or Javascript so he'd find my response too boring.
 
OP, I think you are on to something but I don't think the traditional book is boring. I just think what you are talking about is something alternative that deserves a shot to be tried.

Technology does give us certain opportunities and some interesting stuff can be attempted. It is possible that some of those could become popular if properly executed. Something new can coexist with the old so it is not as if it has to replace it.
 
It is, because the examples that I mentioned consisted of one picture/map in books of over 400 pages. You seem to want a multimedia type of book, with pictures or maps of every new environment introduced, hand-drawn sketches of characters and so on.

I'm not against this kind of expansion, but I prefer the medium to stay in such a position that encourages imagination.

I don't necessarily 'want' those types books - what I am trying to do is explore the idea of interactivity in books - where do I say a book needs to be entirely interactive? One picture that moves every 100 pages is awesome. And that's only one example of the possibilities available with ebooks, you could do a lot of different things.

I think people are assuming that I have some sort of demand that all books are 100% interactive, and that isn't really what I am saying - I hoped that was clearer in the OP - and if not there, in my subsequent posts.

That being said, I have no problem with the idea of a 100% interactive book, if an author can do it - and does it well - where is the problem? If it reads well, keeps me engaged but still follows a novel format, is it sacrilege?
OP, I think you are on to something but I don't think the traditional book is boring. I just think what you are talking about is something alternative that deserves a shot to be tried.

Technology does give us certain opportunities and some interesting stuff can be attempted. It is possible that some of those could become popular.

I'm going to admit that I used the word boring a little... liberally, but only to emphasize my point. I really hoped it would be cleared up in the OP. I don't think a book is automatically boring if it is in plain print format, but I think that the traditional book format (I'm talking everything from novellas to textbooks) could be livened up with intelligent use of today's technology.
 
I'm going to admit that I used the word boring a little... liberally, but only to emphasize my point. I really hoped it would be cleared up in the OP. I don't think a book is automatically boring if it is in plain print format, but I think that the traditional book format (I'm talking everything from novellas to textbooks) could be livened up with intelligent use of today's technology.

Oh I understood what you meant although it was a poor choice of words. Not that a book is automatically boring but that the format is boring. Or at least that is what I understood from your additional comments in this thread explaining how you enjoy books. I think the counterarguements against you do have some points, my view is that the new you envision and the old can coexist. Do you agree?
 
ereaders are evolving, and some already have no problems with rich media.



None of this really has anything to do with the original point you were making, but I mostly agree - that the infrastructure needs to be there - but the infrastructure is most definitely growing.

E-Readers most definitely cannot do these things, the success of the kindle paper white is that it replicates the book completely. It can't play videos or anything. You are describing a tablet like the ipad or kindle fire. And e-reader owners buy a lot more books than a tablet owner. Tablet readers are casual readers. Devoted readers read dead-tree books and e-readers. Formats that in their intended nature can't have such interactive elements of videos and animation.
 
Does anyone else find TV boring because the explosions aren't actually happening in your room? Technology needs to address this.
 
Not really - I have no idea what the authors motives were in the book I mentioned. But using your original premise, it was entirely possible for the author to just use a description for some if not all of those images, and there always was a description - but the author wanted to enrich the content of his books so he included illustrations.

If an author wants to enrich the content of his book, and adds a map that when you tap on, shows troop movements - he didn't HAVE to add that, but he had the capability and thought it would be cool, so he did it.

In regards to being more efficient, it's more efficient to have a 3D rendering of a make believe animal than to painstakingly describe it - wouldn't you say?

I suppose, if you could express everything you hoped to express in words with that rendering, it would be more efficient. If somehow the reader could be left with the same feeling after he absorbed it.

I guess what I mean to say is, these are different means of expression. You know this, of course, or you wouldn't be suggesting the disruption in the first place. The point I hope to make is that the reason to choose one method or the other should not be the method itself, or the creation becomes a slave to the method. It becomes over-aware of itself. Creators should have a great idea, then use the tools to help them achieve that idea—not become enamored of a tool, then try to build an idea around it. The latter is an upside-down approach, and it will show in the final product.

And there is no reason to fear, resent or deride constraints in an art form, as great art has always been created within constraints. It's not old-fashioned or stubborn, it's just reality, and I believe it may have something to do with the way the creative mind works. We like knowing where the outer bounds are.

To that point, note that you aren't knocking down walls, you're just moving them. So it's pretty abstract anyway.
 
E-Readers most definitely cannot do these things, the success of the kindle paper white is that it replicates the book completely. It can't play videos or anything. You are describing a tablet like the ipad or kindle fire. And e-reader owners buy a lot more books than a tablet owner. Tablet readers are casual readers. Devoted readers read dead-tree books and e-readers. Formats that in their intended nature can't have such interactive elements of videos and animation.

If you are talking about e-readers with e-ink displays, no they can't play videos. I don't know why you keep sticking to videos, but eink displays as they are right now do not support epub3. Down the line? Sure, why not. Right now I think the newer kindles support some css styling for their documents.

But back to our original discussion - do you think an interactive map for example would somehow devalue a novel?
I suppose, if you could express everything you hoped to express in words with that rendering, it would be more efficient. If somehow the reader could be left with the same feeling after he absorbed it.

I guess what I mean to say is, these are different means of expression. You know this, of course, or you wouldn't be suggesting the disruption in the first place. The point I hope to make is that the reason to choose one method or the other should not be the method itself, or the creation becomes a slave to the method. It becomes over-aware of itself. Creators should have a great idea, then use the tools to help them achieve that idea—not become enamored of a tool, then try to build an idea around it. The latter is an upside-down approach, and it will show in the final product.

And there is no reason to fear, resent or deride constraints in an art form, as great art has always been created within constraints. It's not old-fashioned or stubborn, it's just reality, and I believe it may have something to do with the way the creative mind works. We like knowing where the outer bounds are.

To that point, note that you aren't knocking down walls, you're just moving them. So it's pretty abstract anyway.
I appreciate this post and you say a lot of things I think are important for me to keep in mind.

Oh I understood what you meant although it was a poor choice of words. Not that a book is automatically boring but that the format is boring. Or at least that is what I understood from your additional comments in this thread explaining how you enjoy books. I think the counterarguements against you do have some points, my view is that the new you envision and the old can coexist. Do you agree?

I absolutely agree. I think there is an opportunity here, not a requirement.
 
I disagree that they are boring.

Having maps and such are okay... but I don't want to see art of the characters or environments. I prefer using my own imagination.
 
Books are not boring: that is more an issue with the proposed 'reader.' And sometimes even that can be remedied by a different book or genre. Some people just don't like to read.

If said reader is 'bored' by books, tossing in a map or a glossary isn't going to make much of a difference.

It makes sense for a magazine or graphic novel or manual, but these avenues are already being explored.

If you have to keep shoveling in graphic elements into your fiction/prose to try and keep this person interested, it seems pointless for both the author and the 'reader'.

At some point the book just becomes a graphic novel.
 
I suggest checkout out Fry's Planet Word.

Specifically episode 4, which deals with the history of the written word.
At around 50 minutes in, it begins contemplating the future of the written word, and offers some interesting examples.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqbuni_frys-planet-word-4_shortfilms

I've not read it, but I understand David Farland's recent book Nightingale did some things in this direction.

If you're into that sort of thing.

Thanks for these, the fry talk was particularly interesting.
 
We already have wikipedia and tvtropes for that kind of "every page leads to every other page" labyrinth of endless clicking.

As a form of storytelling it would be extremely fragmented, unless you're talking about something like Tolkien or GRRM's appendices digitzed, with hyperlinks.
 
We already have wikipedia and tvtropes for that kind of "every page leads to every other page" labyrinth of endless clicking.

As a form of storytelling it would be extremely fragmented, unless you're talking about something like Tolkien or GRRM's appendices digitzed, with hyperlinks.

I'm not even sure what you think I was talking about in the first place to be honest :). I feel like a lot of people are reading stuff I said, but I don't remember saying.

I think the GoT's enhanced digital version is a good example of some of what I am talking about. I think it can be done better, and I think it -will- be done better.

That being said I think that there is room for creativity and experimentation that encompasses more than just annotation and moving maps.

I think it pretty much confirms that the topic creator was born after the TV show Reading Rainbow.

What more or less confirms that?
 
I remember when CD entertainment was new and I bought an interactive book. You could click on parts of the book and animations or voice overs would pop up. Or you'd be sent to another part of the book with extra, additional information.

It only served to detract from the story it was trying to tell.

I don't think you can get any better, entertainment-wise, than pure words written on a page with no distractions.

But maybe that's just me. Enough books these days are written to adhere to the movie formula with explosive action scenes and snappy one-liners without adding more gizmos and whirligigs.
 
To be fair there are not a ton of amazing books out there. Seriously the masterpieces that are well written, contain an amazing story and a very deep outlook on the world can be counted on one hand!
 
I remember when CD entertainment was new and I bought an interactive book. You could click on parts of the book and animations or voice overs would pop up. Or you'd be sent to another part of the book with extra, additional information.

It only served to detract from the story it was trying to tell.

I don't think you can get any better, entertainment-wise, than pure words written on a page with no distractions.

But maybe that's just me. Enough books these days are written to adhere to the movie formula with explosive action scenes and snappy one-liners without adding more gizmos and whirligigs.

I think just like a regular book, certain tools can be misused with something more interactive - I would imagine however that it is entirely possible that interactivity could not only be subtle/tasteful, but also enrich the reading experience.

Or, in the case of like an IKEA instruction manual - save you 5 hours of your day.
 
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