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[phillipgessert]

I think there is some fundamental misunderstanding of what I am proposing here, I assume it's obvious but maybe it isn't.

I am not proposing that every book made, regardless of category (text, comic, etc) or genre (fiction, fantasy, etc) should henceforth be made into some uber interactive movie you read, or something.

I feel as though there are opportunities with ebooks to create new categories, maybe even new genres of books. To add a lot of cool and unique features (like X-Ray with Kindle for example) and to push to envelope even and integrate other media within your books in new and interesting ways - like a text-book with a 3D animated visualization of the DNA replication process.

I am not looking to burn all books, and I don't think that -reading- books are boring. I feel like I've said this a few times, but maybe I need to say it a few more - I think that keeping books as simple as they have been so far is boring, that we can get exciting and try new and unique things. But I do not demand it of all books, nor do I think that a books quality is predicated on how much flash you can put into it.



You're obviously being willfully obtuse here. The last feature I mentioned is the ability to press a button and get a recap - it wouldn't be something you would -have- to press. You are so focused on winning some make believe argument with me you're not even actually talking to me.

The reason you have to reiterate that over and over again is because those of us who aren't keen on the idea are mostly of the following opinions:

1. This already exists, and it's not called a book. It's called a website, or a videogame, or Dragon's Lair, or other somesuch multimedia 'experience'.

2. Those who love books already love them, so those this would appeal mostly to those who do not. So you are describing broadening the definition of 'book' for people who don't even want what you're talking about.

3. These sorts of changes don't exist within a vacuum, and although we can say all day long that not all books need or should have this, I think it's safe to say that much of this will creep into mainline books (aka 'actual books').

So you might say we are having two different discussions, but you're not hearing one of them. Perhaps we aren't hearing yours, because we only hear ours, but that is true for you too I believe. In other words, you seem as steadfast to die on your hill as your opponents are to die on theirs. Perhaps if your OP and title weren't so cutely adversarial, the discussion on both sides of the fence would be a little more academic and a little less combative.

 

[Dresden]

I am not looking to burn all books, and I don't think that -reading- books are boring. I feel like I've said this a few times, but maybe I need to say it a few more - I think that keeping books as simple as they have been so far is boring, that we can get exciting and try new and unique things. But I do not demand it of all books, nor do I think that a books quality is predicated on how much flash you can put into it.

You're the one missing the point - no, I'm not accusing you of wanting to go on some F451 book burning spree. But:

"I think that keeping books as simple as they have been so far is boring, that we can get exciting and try new and unique things."

What I'm saying is that your approach to making them 'new and unique' isn't 'new and unique' at all. These are all things that have been done, or are being done, with or without a digital medium in play. It's not a fundamental misunderstanding of what you're presenting, but rather a fundamental misunderstanding in your very own ideas about what makes a book interesting. There's no room for growth in your proposals. It's all just iterative.

 

[daydream]

I'm sure it will happen. Doesn't have much to do with "books" or "literature", though, it would be a completely different thing (the term would depend on the intermedia(lity) theory you're going with).

 

[kehs]

When I get bored of a book, I just write my own ending or chapters.


Kinitari, read better books.

btw, Google Books is integrating "Now" styled cards when you highlight a word. Definitions, tidbits, etc.

 

[massoluk]

I cried for humanity reading this thread.

On related note, built in dictionary makes reading on Kindle so much more enjoyable for me.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

I read the thread title as "boobs are boring" I was so confused for a while...

 

[Kinitari]

I have to agree with Dresden on this. I don't find them to be 'enriching' at all, but I do find them to be taking away from what books bring to the table: namely, using your own brain to figure out/visualize what's going. Presenting how the characters look, or the locations, etc., diminishes that experience. So much stuff is spoon fed to people nowadays anyway, do we really need everything shown to us? Even the little character reminders you mentioned a bit back just feels like being too lazy or a result of not having worked your memory enough previously. It's a mental crutch.

It's the age of ADD where people seem to crave all these bells and whistles that bring nothing to the experience all while trying to make it more 'entertaining'. It really bothers me.

As for the other mediums, they already exist to provide the reader with whatever degree of 'reading' that they want (light reading, visual candy, etc.). I find them to be separate forms of entertainment that offer different experiences. Do I enjoy comics? Yes. Do I feel they (generally) work my mind the same way books do or leave as much of a lasting impression? No.

You still don't quite understand what I am saying. Comics are books, textbooks are books, manuals are books. They all are different in their functionality and use cases, but with comics for example images don't detract from the content, in fact they are essential for the content. Why not try to make new mediums? Why not try to enrich the mediums we have to create new types of books?

It seems this is an emotional wall people have, but if you really think about it - it already happens and has happened. Books with illustrations, novels even - do they remove from what is presented? If Origin of Species had colour photos, or moving photos, maybe an interactive map - would it be a worse book?

The reason you have to reiterate that over and over again is because those of us who aren't keen on the idea are mostly of the following opinions:

1. This already exists, and it's not called a book. It's called a website, or a videogame, or Dragon's Lair, or other somesuch multimedia 'experience'.

Or a book. Like a book with illustrations, or a comic book, or a manual.

2. Those who love books already love them, so those this would appeal mostly to those who do not. So you are describing broadening the definition of 'book' for people who don't even want what you're talking about.

Why would this appeal to people who don't love books? It's not about making books into movies, it's about creating new opportunities, changing how we can consume books. How am I broadening the definition of books by including 'comic books' or 'textbooks"? Are books STRICTLY books with nothing but text?

3. These sorts of changes don't exist within a vacuum, and although we can say all day long that not all books need or should have this, I think it's safe to say that much of this will creep into mainline books (aka 'actual books').

And? If people like them, they'll buy them - if they don't, they wont.

So you might say we are having two different discussions, but you're not hearing one of them. Perhaps we aren't hearing yours, because we only hear ours, but that is true for you too I believe. In other words, you seem as steadfast to die on your hill as your opponents are to die on theirs. Perhaps if your OP and title weren't so cutely adversarial, the discussion on both sides of the fence would be a little more academic and a little less combative.

I am talking directly to a lot of people, I am word for word discussing their points. I want to have this discussion, it just feels like other people don't. I've already taken a lot of what you've said and really considered it, and considered how I can make features that are 'compatible' with the traditional style of reading. You think you're not reaching me, but I think I've said "a lot of what you've said makes sense and it's important to keep it in mind".

I'm not a stubborn person when it comes to stuff like this, I don't unecessarily hold onto positions for the sake of it.

You're the one missing the point - no, I'm not accusing you of wanting to go on some F451 book burning spree. But:

"I think that keeping books as simple as they have been so far is boring, that we can get exciting and try new and unique things."

What I'm saying is that your approach to making them 'new and unique' isn't 'new and unique' at all. These are all things that have been done, or are being done, with or without a digital medium in play. It's not a fundamental misunderstanding of what you're presenting, but rather a fundamental misunderstanding in your very own ideas about what makes a book interesting. There's no room for growth in your proposals. It's all just iterative.

First of all, why do you think I am having this discussion? I want to see what people can think of, what unique things can be done -because- of this new medium. I don't have ideas and want to shove it down everyones throat, I want to discuss ideas.

And even if it's iterative, even if X-Ray is just an interactive glossary/dictionary/summary - well what the fuck is wrong with being iterative? I am not pretending to be some messiah bringing down the next wave of books, I am trying to think about how we can something new and fun!

 

[Kinitari]

Honestly, the sheer amount of people who say things like "read better books if you're bored" either don't understand what I am saying in the OP, and haven't read any other posts I've made in the thread - or Just haven't read the OP, saw this flashy title of mine and immediately jumped to the defence of something I am not actually attacking.

I guess people really don't read anymore!

Spoiler

Only half snark, because goddamn people.

 

[phillipgessert]

I get that you don't consider yourself as stubborn, but would you believe I don't consider myself stubborn either? Ha—just because we're 'not stubborn people' doesn't mean we aren't stubborn now and then. That goes for everyone. But can you see the format the thread is taking? When someone agrees with you, it's yes yes yes, but when they don't, it's but comic books, but illustrations, but don't buy it then, etc etc. I mean, you are really holding strong on this disruption, to the point that regardless of what you say, it FEELS like disruption for disruption's sake.

I get that you said my thoughts were worthy of consideration, and I'm glad you feel that way, but I'm speaking about the thread in general.

I'd urge you to take a hard look at the responses to the thread, and have the humility to consider the possibility that you have many detractors NOT because they are shortsighted or misunderstanding your argument, but because your assertion that books need this flavor of improvement has real problems.

 

[Kinitari]

I get that you don't consider yourself as stubborn, but would you believe I don't consider myself stubborn either? Ha—just because we're 'not stubborn people' doesn't mean we aren't stubborn now and then. That goes for everyone. But can you see the format the thread is taking? When someone agrees with you, it's yes yes yes, but when they don't, it's but comic books, but illustrations, but don't buy it then, etc etc. I mean, you are really holding strong on this disruption, to the point that regardless of what you say, it FEELS like disruption for disruption's sake.

I get that you said my thoughts were worthy of consideration, and I'm glad you feel that way, but I'm speaking about the thread in general.

I'd urge you to take a hard look at the responses to the thread, and have the humility to consider the possibility that you have many detractors NOT because they are shortsighted or misunderstanding your argument, but because your assertion that books need this flavor of improvement has real problems.

I really know that's what it looks like, and I am trying hard not to let it come off that way - people have disagreed with me (I think it was you) earlier on in the thread, on a fundamental level, but I didn't just say "no but comic books". If someone was misunderstanding or misrepresenting my position, I did my best to clarify - if they FINALLY got what I was trying to say, I wanted to say "hmm, I think that's interesting and I also think it's important that I consider these things if I ever want to implement it into a book I make". But honestly it didn't happen a lot, most of the posts have been drive by's with people bailing out as soon as they sort of realize that they don't actually get what the thread is about. Which, is probably more my fault than anything.

If people want to present me with real reasons why what I am talking about is a bad thing, by all means. The problem is, it isn't happening. Not really - I mean would anyone say that X-Ray in Kindle is a particularly bad feature that detracts from someone's book reading experience? Or that a text book with an interactive diagram or what not - would that be bad?

I say comic books, or graphic novels because... I mean look at them. They aren't traditional books, but a lot of GAF love and accept them - but why would some new technological version of books suddenly cross a line? I am not asking rhetorically, I actually want to know, I want to understand what people are trying to tell me.

 

[Vyer]

Honestly, the sheer amount of people who say things like "read better books if you're bored" either don't understand what I am saying in the OP, and haven't read any other posts I've made in the thread - or Just haven't read the OP, saw this flashy title of mine and immediately jumped to the defence of something I am not actually attacking.

I guess people really don't read anymore!

Spoiler

Only half snark, because goddamn people.

You are having a problem because you are being too broad and not making distinctions that most readers make. I think people are unsure what you are targeting because you're covering a wide area that includes lots of things that already exist.

Yes, all the things you mention are technically 'books'. But they are still very inherently different mediums. So when you proclaim that 'books are boring', most people aren't reading "Comic Books are boring, Textbooks are boring,' etc. etc. And most of those have already started to adopt the things you are talking about. Interactive Comics, Manuals, Textbooks and Magazines are already a 'thing'.

So people are going to assume (and even reading your OP doesn't exactly clear this up) then that the only thing left - and therefore what you are referring to - are 'regular books'. And even then, the glossary, dictionary stuff, X-Ray, etc., already exist too....so I think the whole topic/thread becomes a little more unclear.

 

[besada]

Honestly, the sheer amount of people who say things like "read better books if you're bored" either don't understand what I am saying in the OP, and haven't read any other posts I've made in the thread - or Just haven't read the OP, saw this flashy title of mine and immediately jumped to the defence of something I am not actually attacking.

I guess people really don't read anymore!

Spoiler

Only half snark, because goddamn people.

Man, you dug your own grave here. You pronounced books boring, on the title and the OP. if you don't want the thread to be filled with reactions to those, then change them. How you frame a discussion has an impact on how it unfurls, and you framed this discussion poorly.

 

[Kinitari]

You are having a problem because you are being too broad and not making distinctions that most readers make. I think people are unsure what you are targeting because you're covering a wide area that includes lots of things that already exist.

Yes, all the things you mention are technically 'books'. But they are still very inherently different mediums. So when you proclaim that 'books are boring', most people aren't reading "Comic Books are boring, Textbooks are boring,' etc. etc. And most of those have already started to adopt the things you are talking about. Interactive Comics, Manuals, Textbooks and Magazines are already a 'thing'.

So people are going to assume (and even reading your OP doesn't exactly clear this up) then that the only thing left - and therefore what you are referring to - are 'regular books'. And even then, the glossary, dictionary stuff, X-Ray, etc., already exist too....so I think the whole topic/thread becomes a little more unclear.

Thank you for this more constructive post.

I can appreciate this, and I never once considered that when people read "books" they would think "novels" and strictly novels. I look at the books on my shelf and in my digital library and I have everything from instructional programming books to comics - so I consider them one in the same.

However, I don't think a lot of people even know about these interactive books. The new iBooks happened last summer, and that's still taking off. Regular old ebooks that utilize technology are still extremely rare. It looks like X-Ray came out in December of last year, and only a few books are using it. And some of the things I am talking about aren't happening yet.

But I am sure they -will- be happening. Again, I am not trying to say that I have thought of some cool new way to read books, but that there is new technology out there that will let us read books in different ways - so what are everyone's ideas? What would they like to see?

Man, you dug your own grave here. You pronounced books boring, on the title and the OP. if you don't want the thread to be filled with reactions to those, then change them. How you frame a discussion has an impact on how it unfurls, and you framed this discussion poorly.

I get that, and I am not actually all that upset about it because I was partially expecting it. I honestly wasn't expecting it on the level that it happened. Some reactionary shock and awe was expected, but I was also expecting people to at some point get what I was talking about. I feel like even after they did, they still were mad at me, just for tricking them.

 

[phillipgessert]

If people want to present me with real reasons why what I am talking about is a bad thing, by all means. The problem is, it isn't happening. Not really - I mean would anyone say that X-Ray in Kindle is a particularly bad feature that detracts from someone's book reading experience? Or that a text book with an interactive diagram or what not - would that be bad?

Do you think your argument is evolving as the thread develops, maybe? Because I haven't re-read it, but this basically just sounds like 'shouldn't cool things be available if needed?', which is of course a tough thing to have a problem with. Compared with the arching statement 'books are improved by adding XYZ', which implies a change to the FORMAT, and is SUBSTANTIALLY easier to have a problem with.

For instance, my original counter-argument that there must be a reason for a tool to be used—X-Ray is actually a great example of that. I mean, it's not like an author was 'inspired by X-Ray' and built a book around it. But you're not really talking about that anymore. Which is fine, but the clarifications you're making now may take a page or two to stick with us.

 

[Fenderputty]

but that would defeat the purpose of reading a book

I'm now humming this stupid theme song at work. About to break out into song soon. lol

 

[Kinitari]

Do you think your argument is evolving as the thread develops, maybe? Because I haven't re-read it, but this basically just sounds like 'shouldn't cool things be available if needed?', which is of course a tough thing to have a problem with. Compared with the arching statement 'books are improved by adding XYZ', which implies a change to the FORMAT, and is SUBSTANTIALLY easier to have a problem with.

For instance, my original counter-argument that there must be a reason for a tool to be used—X-Ray is actually a great example of that. I mean, it's not like an author was 'inspired by X-Ray' and built a book around it. But you're not really talking about that anymore. Which is fine, but the clarifications you're making now may take a page or two to stick with us.

I don't know if my argument has changed honestly, I think maybe I should have just spent more time on my OP clarifying. I've never talked about improving the books themselves, only about pursuing new and exciting avenues for book development. It's not about replacing, but about expanding.

 

[CrunchyFrog]

Books are books. You want to create something else? Go for it, but don't call it a book.

Pretty much this. Books are the way they are to provoke the reader to use their own brains and imaginations, and often that power put into the reader's hands is integral to the book's story. You'd have to write the book in an almost entirely different way if you were using more interactive/visual elements. It's why good movie adaptations of books aren't just straight conversions from the page to the screen, there are just some things in one medium that don't work in the other. It's something I'd love to see though, and there's no reason it couldn't coexist with the current book paradigm.

thread title is terrible bait. You're talking about creating an interactive, visual novel-like type thing, specifically on Ebook devices and such.

that is not a book, nor is it an "improvement" over books. That's a whole different thing that very much exists and keeps evolving

its like saying "hey comics suck, motion comics are better and an improvement"

"Star Wars is better than Hamlet cuz space ships"

 

[kehs]

Honestly, the sheer amount of people who say things like "read better books if you're bored" either don't understand what I am saying in the OP, and haven't read any other posts I've made in the thread - or Just haven't read the OP, saw this flashy title of mine and immediately jumped to the defence of something I am not actually attacking.

I guess people really don't read anymore!

Spoiler

Only half snark, because goddamn people.

But textbooks are already including supplemental features like you're talking about.

I think that's why "get better books" is fitting. It's not just relegated to the quality of fictional books.

There are plenty of interactive books on nonfiction subjects.

That's probably part of the reason that people like to distinguish between types of books, as they are used differently.

I sure as shit don't need an interactive floorplan layout of Bateman's apartment as I'm reading his detailed encounter about hookers eating each other.

 

[Kinitari]

But textbooks are already including supplemental features like you're talking about.

I think that's why "get better books" is fitting. It's not just relegated to the quality of fictional books.

There are plenty of interactive books on nonfiction subjects.

Of course they exist, but they really don't exist in any crazy numbers - and a lot of the fancy extra features are strictly videos embedded on the page. If you can think of something that's more creative though, I would love for you to share it with me - I kind of make a point of asking people to share interesting interactive books they may have seen/read in my OP.

That's probably part of the reason that people like to distinguish between types of books, as they are used differently.

I sure as shit don't need an interactive floorplan layout of Bateman's apartment as I'm reading his detailed encounter about hookers eating each other.

Sure - but in game of thrones during some battle or another, wouldn't it be nice to be able to pull up a map and see where everyone's troops were located at that particular point in the book? I am honestly not asking you this question because I want you to agree, if you disagree however I would love to know why. What about this idea bothers people? Is there anyway an idea like this could be implemented that enriched someone's experience?

I wouldn't mind if people wanted to talk about what genre's are completely off limits to them, or whatever. I would actually love it.

For instance, my original counter-argument that there must be a reason for a tool to be used—X-Ray is actually a great example of that. I mean, it's not like an author was 'inspired by X-Ray' and built a book around it. But you're not really talking about that anymore. Which is fine, but the clarifications you're making now may take a page or two to stick with us.

People seemed really upset by some of the more benign ideas I had, I figured I could save the crazier ones for later. The idea of creating new types of books by, I don't know, pulling in twitter feeds or some shit, into a book or some other interactive and cool stuff - that appeals to me too. But if people are this upset about a map with moving dots... well fuck.

 

[Risette]

I am trying to think about how we can something new and fun!

How about better?

This sounds worse. Too many distractions.

 

[phillipgessert]

Of course they exist, but they really don't exist in any crazy numbers - and a lot of the fancy extra features are strictly videos embedded on the page. If you can think of something that's more creative though, I would love for you to share it with me - I kind of make a point of asking people to share interesting interactive books they may have seen/read in my OP.



Sure - but in game of thrones during some battle or another, wouldn't it be nice to be able to pull up a map and see where everyone's troops were located at that particular point in the book? I am honestly not asking you this question because I want you to agree, if you disagree however I would love to know why. What about this idea bothers people? Is there anyway an idea like this could be implemented that enriched someone's experience?

I wouldn't mind if people wanted to talk about what genre's are completely off limits to them, or whatever. I would actually love it.

This is a genuine question, not meant as a challenge: but do you think that 100% explicit clarity is always a benefit in reading? Do you think that confusion, especially in fictionalized battle, can shape a reader's experience—and can sometimes exist on purpose?

 

[FutureZombie]

In some ways, books are the best form of entertainment. Take fantasy books for example. There's no pandering to the lowest common denominator. No celebrities, no pop music, no political correctness. Just the imagination of one person for your consumption. Beats TV and movies by a mile.

 

[Kinitari]

How about better?

This sounds worse. Too many distractions.

Well, from what I understand of X-Ray, it's meant to be as out of the way as possible - so it's not like some glowing button to press, but if actively look for more information on something, it's there. Regardless, if that's not something you'd like, can you think of anything you would like to see in books? And let me just clarify by saying all sorts of books, manuals... novels... comics, anything.

This is a genuine question, not meant as a challenge: but do you think that 100% explicit clarity is always a benefit in reading? Do you think that confusion, especially in fictionalized battle, can shape a reader's experience—and can sometimes exist on purpose?

Of course, I think it's up to the authors discretion, as well as the reader. I can imagine that some readers appreciate the experience of being a bit in the dark and not quite putting all the pieces together - and I am sure some don't. The same way I would say that authors might love it when their readers are confused about some hidden plot point, but some might hate it when their message isn't being received the way they want it to be.

I don't think there is a right answer or anything.

 

[Trent Strong]

You're supposed to be using your imagination when you read. Pictures and interactive stuff would just make you lose your imagination less.

 

[Kinitari]

You're supposed to be using your imagination when you read. Pictures and interactive stuff would just make you lose your imagination less.

I take it you're talking strictly about fiction novels - and that's fine and all. But I want to really ask you something and I don't mean this as an attack. How do you feel about novels with illustrations? There are a lot of them out there, whether it be ones of maps or creatures or even characters - do you think they detract from the reading experience? Or do you put novels with illustrations in a different category than regular novels?

 

[phillipgessert]

Well, from what I understand of X-Ray, it's meant to be as out of the way as possible - so it's not like some glowing button to press, but if actively look for more information on something, it's there. Regardless, if that's not something you'd like, can you think of anything you would like to see in books? And let me just clarify by saying all sorts of books, manuals... novels... comics, anything.



Of course, I think it's up to the authors discretion, as well as the reader. I can imagine that some readers appreciate the experience of being a bit in the dark and not quite putting all the pieces together - and I am sure some don't. The same way I would say that authors might love it when their readers are confused about some hidden plot point, but some might hate it when their message isn't being received the way they want it to be.

I don't think there is a right answer or anything.

Hmm, I don't think this should be at the reader's discretion. That's pure opinion of course, but I believe control over the experience should be firmly in the hands of the creator—or anyway, as firmly as it possibly can be.

And this may be a part of the conflict as well. Currently, authors enjoy that kind of control. In part, you are talking about turning much of that control over to the reader. I'm not sure what effect that has on the integrity of the art form as singular expression.

 

[Risette]

Well, from what I understand of X-Ray, it's meant to be as out of the way as possible - so it's not like some glowing button to press, but if actively look for more information on something, it's there. Regardless, if that's not something you'd like, can you think of anything you would like to see in books? And let me just clarify by saying all sorts of books, manuals... novels... comics, anything.

I would like to see consistent, scalable digital formatting. Nothing annoys me more than having an eBook with the whole chapter title thing in the middle of the page. It should have a page break no matter what font size I choose. Stuff like that.

 

[Kinitari]

Hmm, I don't think this should be at the reader's discretion. That's pure opinion of course, but I believe control over the experience should be firmly in the hands of the creator—or anyway, as firmly as it possibly can be.

And this may be a part of the conflict as well. Currently, authors enjoy that kind of control. In part, you are talking about turning much of that control over to the reader. I'm not sure what effect that has on the integrity of the art form as singular expression.

Well consider that an author that put an animated map in their book put it in with the desire to give these users this information. I don't think anything I've suggested is particular out of the authors hands - but some of the more subtle implementations give the users the reigns and allows them to decide how much of these tools they want to utilize.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

You're supposed to be using your imagination when you read. Pictures and interactive stuff would just make you lose your imagination less.

there are genuinely good reasons to have features like a built in dictionary and wikipedia and on-the-fly translation. These things made All the Pretty Horses a lot easier for me to read because I'd see a word I didn't know or a place or a passage in spanish and instantly be able to look up what they are talking about rather than shrug and keep reading as I normally would with a paper book.

 

[Trent Strong]

I take it you're talking strictly about fiction novels - and that's fine and all. But I want to really ask you something and I don't mean this as an attack. How do you feel about novels with illustrations? There are a lot of them out there, whether it be ones of maps or creatures or even characters - do you think they detract from the reading experience? Or do you put novels with illustrations in a different category than regular novels?

Yeah, I guess novels with illustrations are fine, I just haven't read one in so long I forgot they existed. But, I don't know, there's just something about a book with a bunch of pictures and sounds and interactive multi-media stuff going on all the time that bothers me. Seems like it would take away from the purity of the reading experience somehow.

 

[phillipgessert]

Well consider that an author that put an animated map in their book put it in with the desire to give these users this information. I don't think anything I've suggested is particular out of the authors hands - but some of the more subtle implementations give the users the reigns and allows them to decide how much of these tools they want to utilize.

I feel like, if I were that author, I wouldn't like the readers to be able to choose not to use it. Because that would change the experience. Subtly, perhaps, but they say the devil is in the details.

What I mean is, if I put something in there, I want you to use it. If I want something not there, I don't want you to use it. There's no grey area really, it's kinda binary. Anyway, the obvious reply will be that authors don't have to do any of this, ha—but this was really a response to your original question: asking for people to give you a reason why a detailed map of troop movements might not be ideal. I'd say it might not be ideal because that level of clarity is not always a good thing. (PS they can already add maps, as you know, and troop locations are not confined only to animated ones).

 

[Kinitari]

Yeah, I guess novels with illustrations are fine, I just haven't read one in so long I forgot they existed. But, I don't know, there's just something about a book with a bunch of pictures and sounds and interactive multi-media stuff going on all the time that bothers me. Seems like it would take away from the purity of the reading experience somehow.

I think depending on the sort of experience you want to deliver (as the author), you'd have to incorporate it into your works the right way. I'm sure some crappy or overenthusiastic writers might utilize it poorly - but from what I've learned from the more constructive parts of this thread, when it comes to things like fiction novels this sort of... added content will only be appreciated if done subtly.

I feel like, if I were that author, I wouldn't like the readers to be able to choose not to use it. Because that would change the experience. Subtly, perhaps, but they say the devil is in the details.

What I mean is, if I put something in there, I want you to use it. If I want something not there, I don't want you to use it. There's no grey area really, it's kinda binary. Anyway, the obvious reply will be that authors don't have to do any of this, ha—but this was really a response to your original question: asking for people to give you a reason why a detailed map of troop movements might not be ideal. I'd say it might not be ideal because that level of clarity is not always a good thing. (PS they can already add maps, as you know, and troop locations are not confined only to animated ones).

Of course, and I can at least appreciate that position. I was even thinking that you might say that if you were the author and you put in a tool you'd want the reader to use it - and I guess that makes sense when considering what you'd want out of your book. I think I'd probably be more flexible as an author.

 

[Trent Strong]

there are genuinely good reasons to have features like a built in dictionary and wikipedia and on-the-fly translation. These things made All the Pretty Horses a lot easier for me to read because I'd see a word I didn't know or a place or a passage in spanish and instantly be able to look up what they are talking about rather than shrug and keep reading as I normally would with a paper book.

Oh yeah, built in dictionary is awesome. One of the best things about ereaders.

 

[Wiktor]

I take it you're talking strictly about fiction novels - and that's fine and all. But I want to really ask you something and I don't mean this as an attack. How do you feel about novels with illustrations? There are a lot of them out there, whether it be ones of maps or creatures or even characters - do you think they detract from the reading experience? Or do you put novels with illustrations in a different category than regular novels?

Japanese have this things called Light Novels...and they're full of pictures. They're good, but the existence of those pictures do change the whole context of the novel. It doesn't enrich it, it makes it different and authors adapted to that by simplifying their prose considerably and making it more brisk.
The problem is, the more you add those extra elements, the less of a novel it becomes. And it's not bad in itself, but it does become different experience, one that isn't better than pure-text one.

 

[Ikael]

But thing is, these ideas of the OP have been done before. They are called "websites" and "interactive text novels", you should check out 999 some day, mate. Books are, simply put, their own thing.

 

[Kinitari]

But thing is, these ideas of the OP have been done before. They are called "websites" and "interactive text novels", you should check out 999 some day, mate. Books are, simply put, their own thing.

Well firstly, I don't think the ideas I presented are strictly new or the end all be all of what we can do with the technology available to us, the real point of the thread was to discuss which direction we could be moving in, and what interesting things we could integrate into books.

However I am really curious, you seem to say that 'books are their own thing' - but I don't really understand what you mean when you say book here. What is your definition of a book? Does it include things like textbooks, or children's books or even dictionaries? And why can't we incorporate some web technologies into books, I wonder?

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Ok, so how can you envision this being used? You keep saying what it's not going to be used for so when are the benefits? I don't see 99% of books benefiting from it. Most things in the OP just don't add a value. What does it support japanese and arabic languages, or mathematical functions do? Books already have languages, you can already right equations, so what additional benefit are these providing. The rest are just turning it away from a book. The only instance I can possibly see benefitting is books such as tech books because interactive diagrams or videos to better explain a point would be extremely useful but for all the other books what would they do? I'm just not seeing how "interactive" books as you call them benefit anything besides kids books and textbooks. Most books don't have illustrations or have a handful at best in hundreds of pages, if you're adding constant animation or videos then why are you reading the book?

 

[Kinitari]

Ok, so how can you envision this being used? You keep saying what it's not going to be used for so when are the benefits?

I don't know what you mean when you say this. What is it that I keep saying isn't going to be used for x? And what is the X in that question as well? Maybe I don't remember saying what you are talking about, I have said a lot of things in this thread.

I don't see 99% of books benefiting from it. Most things in the OP just don't add a value. What does it support japanese and arabic languages, or mathematical functions do? Books already have languages, you can already right equations, so what additional benefit are these providing.

Consider you pick up a book that's trying to teach you arabic. The digital version has the english, next to the arabic in it's native text. And you can click on the arabic to hear it's pronunciation. That's an extremely simple example of an interesting way to write a new e-book.

The rest are just turning it away from a book. The only instance I can possibly see benefitting is books such as tech books because interactive diagrams or videos to better explain a point would be extremely useful but for all the other books what would they do? I'm just not seeing how "interactive" books as you call them benefit anything besides kids books and textbooks. Most books don't have illustrations or have a handful at best in hundreds of pages, if you're adding constant animation or videos then why are you reading the book?

How do you define a book? What isn't a book anymore? I ask these questions a lot in this thread because people keep saying "that's not a book", without actually defining what a book is. My definition is broad, it covers all sorts of things we can books in our regular day lives (textbooks, novels, comic books, etc).

When you say 'benefit' - what do you mean? Are we talking strict utilitarianism? Because there are benefits - depending on the type of book. But I think the most important thing is that it encourages creativity.

Imagine books that have somehow intelligibly integrated tweets? I don't even know if this is a book I would like, but as creative expression I think it's fascinating. I think there is a lot of opportunity here, and I think that not looking outside of the traditional paradigm of book writing/reading (text on a page) is selling the value of books short. There is nothing inherently wrong with regular-ass books, but I would love to see books/authors that took more risks and tried new things.

And it is happening to varying degrees, and it will continue to happen. The simple features that I mentioned in the OP, the ones that I would love, are new features in some Kindles (X-Ray). And I am sure more authors (of all stripes and sorts) will pursue these options as time goes by.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

All that text and you STILL haven't explained anything. How do they benefit? It's not a trick question, what are they doing with the books that make them better to read than the physical version. And why are you playing semantics about what a book is? You know exactly what a book is, I'm trying to find out what about the list you had in the OP enhances the experience of reading a book.

Ok, and a book teaching you arabic (essentially a textbook) you could have pronunciations, where is this affecting the vast majority of books?

Edit: You keep mentioned novels and comic books, how does this enhance them? You still haven't answered this after being asked multiple times.

 

[Kinitari]

All that text and you STILL haven't explained anything. How do they benefit? It's not a trick question, what are they doing with the books that make them better to read than the physical version. And why are you playing semantics about what a book is? You know exactly what a book is, I'm trying to find out what about the list you had in the OP enhances the experience of reading a book.

I don't think I've explained something more in my entire life, but I'll keep trying.

"How do they benefit?" - I'm going to take this to mean, how does the person buying the English book trying to teach you how to read Arabic benefit from this technology.

The person who wants to learn Arabic can, for example, click on any English word in this book and it will give them the ability to see it written in Arabic and/or pronounced in Arabic. If designed well, it would be sleek and minimal while still providing functionality over physical paper books that would normally require you to read a regular text book + have the internet open. This is one example, I could think of quite a few more - and I have been throwing them around in the thread.

"Why are you playing semantics about what a book is?" - I really really am not. I think I've explained it quite a few times in this thread, but it's getting long and maybe I haven't explained it enough times. A book to me is anything that we regularly call a book, something that might sit in a book shelf, or something that is sitting in my book reading apps. These are all generally categorized books, and when I say books I mean any of them.

The problem is I really don't know what you mean when you say 'book'. I don't know where you are drawing the line, and if you could clarify I would really appreciate it.

 

[Wiktor]

Consider you pick up a book that's trying to teach you arabic. The digital version has the english, next to the arabic in it's native text. And you can click on the arabic to hear it's pronunciation. That's an extremely simple example of an interesting way to write a new e-book..

No, actually it's example of a absolutely absymal product. If you're already using electronic device as a way to teach english you can do ten times more with the medium by creating a learning software. Creating digital version of paper book and just adding pronounciation is just plain lazy and it creates worthless experience on electronic device compared to the alternatives.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

So much fail in this thread. I mean, it's actually a crying shame, and I have trouble believing I'm reading some of it. Go watch a Transformers film you nimrod.

 

[Kinitari]

No, actually it's example of a absolutely absymal product. If you're already using electronic device as a way to teach english you can do ten times more with the medium by creating a learning software. Creating digital version of paper book and just adding pronounciation is just plain lazy and it creates worthless experience on electronic device compared to the alternatives.

But... how do you know? Has it been done? You very well may be right, but you seem to be speaking from a position of authority. Mind you, this was a throwaway example, but I don't know why it would be a bad one?

What about something even simpler? Lets say the book reader you have knows you want to learn Arabic, so every once in a while when you are reading your regular books you can highlight a sentence and sort of 'ask' it how it would say it in another language. It's not so much about sitting down and focusing on learning to read Arabic, but more about enriching the experience of reading in different ways.

So much fail in this thread. I mean, it's actually a crying shame, and I have trouble believing I'm reading some of it. Go watch a Transformers film you nimrod.

What is it about what I've said that bothers you, specifically? I'm super curious.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I don't think I've explained something more in my entire life, but I'll keep trying.

"How do they benefit?" - I'm going to take this to mean, how does the person buying the English book trying to teach you how to read Arabic benefit from this technology.

The person who wants to learn Arabic can, for example, click on any English word in this book and it will give them the ability to see it written in Arabic and/or pronounced in Arabic. If designed well, it would be sleek and minimal while still providing functionality over physical paper books that would normally require you to read a regular text book + have the internet open. This is one example, I could think of quite a few more - and I have been throwing them around in the thread.

"Why are you playing semantics about what a book is?" - I really really am not. I think I've explained it quite a few times in this thread, but it's getting long and maybe I haven't explained it enough times. A book to me is anything that we regularly call a book, something that might sit in a book shelf, or something that is sitting in my book reading apps. These are all generally categorized books, and when I say books I mean any of them.

The problem is I really don't know what you mean when you say 'book'. I don't know where you are drawing the line, and if you could clarify I would really appreciate it.

You have to be a joke poster. I'm obviously not asking about the arabic example. You're just being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse. I'm done with your baiting. Let me know if you want to have an actual conversation.

 

[Wiktor]

But... how do you know? Has it been done? You very well may be right, but you seem to be speaking from a position of authority.
Mind you, this was a throwaway example, but I don't know why it would be a bad one?

Because it's obvious. Software can do everything such ebook could and then do also ten times more things usefull to people who are learning new language

What about something even simpler? Lets say the book reader you have knows you want to learn Arabic, so every once in a while when you are reading your regular books you can highlight a sentence and sort of 'ask' it how it would say it in another language. It's not so much about sitting down and focusing on learning to read Arabic, but more about enriching the experience of reading in different ways.
.

I'm sorry, but such software doesn't exist and won't for a very very long time.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

What is it about what I've said that bothers you, specifically? I'm super curious.

Books have been presented in (relatively) the same format for about 600 years now. If you don't like it, it's absolutely your problem.

 

[Kinitari]

You have to be a joke poster. I'm obviously not asking about the arabic example. You're just being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse. I'm done with your baiting. Let me know if you want to have an actual conversation.

What?... I'm bending over backwards here. Well okay, if you're sure you don't want to have this conversation.

Because it's obvious. Software can do everything such ebook could and then do also ten times more things usefull to people who are learning new language

I'm sorry, but such software doesn't exist and won't for a very very long time.

I don't think everyone wants to sit in front of a computer, or use an app to learn. And even if software is better, it doesn't mean that learning by reading with some enhancements is bad - that's if I agree with your general premise, which doesn't consider than an e book is software.

And as for that technology not existing, it does. Google translate. It's not perfect, but it's good and getting better.

Books have been presented in (relatively) the same format for about 600 years now. If you don't like it, it's absolutely your problem.

Really? I think stuff like graphic novels or comic books are pretty different. That being said, I don't really hold any emotional attachment to tradition, I have no problems trying new kinds of books.

 

[zoukka]

If you find books boring, then it's you who is boring.

I have to sign this one.

 

[Kinitari]

I have to sign this one.

While I think it's extremely interesting the sort of effect me using the word "boring" has on people, I still think I need to clarify.

Boring as in... text on paper boring. I don't think reading in and of itself is boring, quite the opposite. I love reading and I think it would be exciting if more people tried new and unique ways to deliver the book reading experience.

 

[MilesWebber]

Remember when you were a kid and you could get PIZZA for reading books? That's the shit reading could use nowadays.