You don't need gimmicks to get people to read. Harry Potter got millions of new people to read. A good well written book is all it takes.
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Books are boring. How could they be better?
- Thread starter Kinitari
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It's not necessarily about getting more people to read, but about exploring the new ways we can create and present books. Maybe it's the same amount of people reading, but reading in new ways, or just enriching the experience with useful tools.
Books can have illustrations. Maybe those can be videos in ebooks? Maybe you could choose where the story went?
I don't find either feature to be essential in making books less boring.
phillipgessert
Member
I was thinking about this stuff some more last night, and had an idea I wanted to throw at you. You're getting a lot (?) of people challenging the quality of your imagination based on your ideas here. And it got me considering that what you and some others are calling 'interactivity' is probably more accurately termed 'media richness' and is meant as an improvement to the way information is PRESENTED to a reader.
Okay, so if we place such heavy emphasis on presentation, requiring less comprehension and consideration from the reader (aka 'imagination' or 'confusion' or even 'memory'), haven't we actually created a LESS interactive product? Am I not LESS engaged mentally?
Of course all mixed media/medium stuff has been already done- EPUB3 seems to basically just be using all those web standards.
But think about the visual novel. A well written kinetic visual novel that you can read in the form factor of an e-reader and with the convenience that comes along with it? That seems worth something. Along similar lines, people in the mid-twentieth century for whom comics were a trashy, pulpy faux-substitution for proper written literature, and couldn't imagine a world where Maus or Black Hole or whatever powerful work could exist in that same medium: they were also suffering from the lack of imagination that many people in this thread seem to have.
But think about the visual novel. A well written kinetic visual novel that you can read in the form factor of an e-reader and with the convenience that comes along with it? That seems worth something. Along similar lines, people in the mid-twentieth century for whom comics were a trashy, pulpy faux-substitution for proper written literature, and couldn't imagine a world where Maus or Black Hole or whatever powerful work could exist in that same medium: they were also suffering from the lack of imagination that many people in this thread seem to have.
Visual and textual comprehension and consideration are pretty different, especially when you're combining them. A Courbet painting is probably going to require more consideration than the sixth book in the Princess Diaries series (to score an easy point).
Wiktor
Member
You could do it all even on e-reader. So bassicaly your argument is "some people want crappy ineffective tools when learning new languages".
No. Google Translate is capable of translating single words. It completely breaks apart when trying to do the same with sentences. In your example such function would actually hurt your learning process, as all you would be getting is akward, wrongly put together translations.
Can you think of any ways, using modern tech, you could make an ebook different, still keeping to a general book format but utilizing new techniques to engage the reader in different ways?
I think that's an issue of semantics, and not really something I want to pursue in this thread. Are comic books less interactive than novels? Maybe, using your definition. Does it matter? If it does, not to me particularly.
This is the reason I keep emphasising comic books, I don't think the people in this thread are offended at the notion of comic books, but their reactions to the idea of technology changing up the book format in new and unique ways seems to offend people the way I would imagine people were offended by the introduction of graphic novels/comic books a couple of decades ago.
Sigh. Look, I don't want to really get into whether or not there is quality in using an e-reader to teach you a language with an interactive book. It's not an argument I want to spend time defending, regardless of how good of an argument I can make - it's not the point of this thread. If you want, try to think of another way you could mix up tech and books in new and exciting ways for you personally.
Google translate translates entire web pages with pretty good accuracy. It's not just single words, its better at doing whole sentences, paragraphs. Like I said it's not perfect, but it will continue to improve - it won't be decades or anything before we can almost perfect translations digitally.
Moving past just Google Translate - there are dozens of new and emerging approaches to language translation that will most likely continue to increase the quality more and more. The tech is here bro. Look up a youtube video of a Microsoft presentation where there is a live Cantonese translation.
I don't think you've used Google Translate lately.
If you find books boring, that's bad for you in every aspect of your life.
about technology, if i'm reading one of those books where there's community around it (harry potter, LotR, Games of thrones etc...) it would be nice to get a forum like interface where you share your thoughts with people who are at the same page that you're reading (no newbies or super experts with no life).
about technical amusement, i've bought this book that is a real pleasure to read since it's the full text + original images and the pop-ups are well themed and related to the story:
worst image i could ever find, but really cool to see irl, check your local library
about technology, if i'm reading one of those books where there's community around it (harry potter, LotR, Games of thrones etc...) it would be nice to get a forum like interface where you share your thoughts with people who are at the same page that you're reading (no newbies or super experts with no life).
about technical amusement, i've bought this book that is a real pleasure to read since it's the full text + original images and the pop-ups are well themed and related to the story:
worst image i could ever find, but really cool to see irl, check your local library
Luckily I don't find books themselves boring, and I love to read - more so than many people probably give me credit for in this thread
.That's a really interesting idea, tying in a community with your reading experience. I am trying to think of the most ideal format for something like that, but I can't think of any - that's not to say it doesn't exist, but it's not something my poor design sense can really visualise well. If done right though I can see it working really well with Harry Potter like books.
about technical amusement, i've bought this book that is a real pleasure to read since it's the full text + original images and the pop-ups are well themed and related to the story:
worst image i could ever find, but really cool to see irl, check your local library
I am terrified of popup books, in real life, because I destroyed one pretty badly as a child. I'd feel terrible if I destroyed that book.
apocalidiot
Banned
OP is everything wrong with today. Lets add Twitter functionality to books too
"omg, I'm like reading a book. Like you're reading this, but a book! #yoro #retro"
"omg, I'm like reading a book. Like you're reading this, but a book! #yoro #retro"
phillipgessert
Member
The semantic argument was only a part of my point though. What do you think about the rest of it? Do you think that the enhancements you suggest make reading a more passive, and potentially less engaging, experience?
Coinspinner
Member
I love looking at fanart of stuff from books. Every artist has their own idea of what things look like.
Well I am open to any ideas you might have - how would you personally use the technology available to us with e-books to enrich or change up the reading experience?
Not personally. You are simply shifting your engagement from working extra hard to imagine something like... troop position, to pressing buttons and watching it happen instead. It just 'engages' different parts of your brain. Which isn't a bad thing, I mean in that examples a book is still 99% reading, but with the occasional map or drawing that provides extra info.
When it comes to X-Ray like functionality, even less so - because you are still reading. Instead of going back a few pages if you're confused about something, you tap a name - different methods for the same end result.
That's a really cool idea - maybe when you click on some interesting creature name in a popular book, you can see a collage of different interpreations and drawings of said creature, pulled off the net.
that's my problem actually with my daughter, she always tries to pinch the figures
anyway this book is particular, i'll make some examples:
- when they call for the winners of the golden tickets, they rappresent 4 different pieces of news paper with an article style description of the winner, if you pull the tab, you can read the comments of charlie's grandparents
- when Charlie finds the winning choccolate bar, there's an actual cardboard made chocolat bar that you open and find the golden ticket
that's pretty amusing and if you already know the story, that's a pretty neat addition
Wiktor
Member
I'm using it almost daily. The sentences it translates are in most cases understandable, but they;'re gramatical nightmare
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Are you being sarcastic? I've now asked 3 times for examples how this will improve various types of books to which all you've done is harp on some stupid arabic pronunciation thing. I've asked multiple times how the list in the OP will enhance the reading experience with the vast vast majority of books and you've said nothing. Instead, you've decided to argue stupid semantics with yourself over what the age old question of "what is a book really?". Don't act like you've been even attempting to have a discussion as you've ignored pretty much my whole post that has given my postion let alone "bending over backwards". This is now 3 times, in what way do the list you've given in the OP enhance books? How will this improve 99% of books? If you can't answer this yet again then you've proven my point of you being a joke poster who doesn't want discussion, it's a simple question and the very basis of your thread.
You've asked an extremely open ended question that I have never once claimed to have an answer to. I have ideas, but these are subjective ideas that you may or may not like. If you want, ask me something more specific like... in what ways do you think epub3 can enhance how we read fantasy novels - or something, and I can give you ideas and examples (and in fact I have peppered them throughout this thread already).
I've said a looooot of things. But I really don't know what you expect from me? Give me some more specific questions, queries or concerns and I can answer you, and we can talk about it - but as it is right now I don't know what you want.
Bro, I've been trying to talk to you - and 'what a book is' is an important question if people keep telling me that the stuff I am talking about 'isn't a book'. If it isn't a book, than what is? I mean I can approach this either way, I can talk about how we can have newer categories of books (kind of like how graphic novels/comic books are 'new categories') or I can talk about how particular categories and genres can incorporate technology. You just tell me what you want to hear because I really have no idea.
Look, I really want to have this discussion, I think it's fascinating, but I feel like I am talking, and I have been talking to you. You asked me questions, and I tried to answer them - but then you got mad and told me I wasn't. Just let me know what it is you want me to say, or how it is you want me to say it and I will - but as it stands right now I sincerely have no idea what it is you want.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
So you have no idea how this technology would make them better than physical books but why haven't they done this yet because books are boring? And yet another post without giving an example of how this will improve the experience for most books. Ya... I think we're done here.
I don't know if my ideas will necessarily make books objectively better - I have a lot of different ideas, some are crazy some are already implemented. I don't know if you missed them or something but we talked a bit about X-Ray for Kindle, and that was really similar to an idea I had when I made my OP. Is that what you are looking for when you ask me your questions?
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
I've really come to love audible because of that. Especially with my long commute, I've enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would. I still prefer books if I have the option though, I can read a lot faster than the audible speaker.
phillipgessert
Member
Not to butt in, but to use a selling analogy: I believe you are describing features, but Zaraki is asking for benefits.
Ah. Well my features could be worded as benefits I guess, if I say something like "on the fly translations, definitions and recaps available directly from the book's interface" or "dynamic content that remains up to date/current as long as you have an internet connection" or "interactive tools that integrate well with the text of an instructional book that provides an enriched learning environment".
I'm not so much looking to sell a particular feature, so much as discuss their possibilities and how I personally feel about them. I can go on and on about how much I love them, but as you've seen people won't necessarily agree with my assessment.
And honestly, that's not what I'm looking for, getting everyone to like the stuff I like.
So, you say books are boring, then proclaim books great but their delivery boring. Just words on paper. You love books so much you want to change anything and everything without even knowing why or how it would improve or impact the reading experience.
Seems to me you are just confused about what books are. The presentation and delivery don't matter one bit; it's just the means to an end. The story is all in your imagination. All those "improvements" you keep coming up with directly affect that experience. The reason ebooks took off is because they made the actual aspect of reading easier, they didn't try to change what books actually are.
And honestly, you can't say you get/love books/reading and then complain about those boring words. Just makes you look foolish.
Seems to me you are just confused about what books are. The presentation and delivery don't matter one bit; it's just the means to an end. The story is all in your imagination. All those "improvements" you keep coming up with directly affect that experience. The reason ebooks took off is because they made the actual aspect of reading easier, they didn't try to change what books actually are.
And honestly, you can't say you get/love books/reading and then complain about those boring words. Just makes you look foolish.
I've got bad news for you, Twitter integration has been a Kindle feature forever.
Is it weird to be excited about new possibilities or something? I love books, and I would love to see them try new things. I can see potential for great functionality, and a lot of what I've read about in things like X-Ray is wonderful, but I can't guarantee that every cool new idea will be a positive - that's why we try and see what happens.
But e-books, many of them, -do- have a lot of these improvements. Things like the ability to resize font, change colours, change font type - that's the simplest level of what I am talking about. Live dictionaries and character summaries built in - next level. I mean... I am not particularly talking about something new and radical - I just want to see where we can take this.
Where did I complain about those boring words? Do you love games? Do you never want to play next-gen games that utilize new technology because the games that you play right now are great? Isn't that a little bit boring?
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
Well, you did say in your thread title that "Books are boring" then proceed to suggest ways to fix that/improve upon it (in your opinion).
Sorry for late reply, but it's hard to engage about this when I'm at work, but anyway...
Things like 'on the touch dictionary support' for words you don't know I suppose could be helpful (though I think you're generally able to suss out the meaning contextually), but the rest of the 'interactive' stuff I don't feel adds anything. You keep saying it enriches the experience, but I still feel like it dumbs down the process. As Adol keeps pointing out, it makes reading a more passive experience when without all these presented visual cues, the reader was working more to visualize what they're reading.
As for notes, recaps, or character summaries that you mentioned, I still feel like it's a crutch for readers and will ultimately lead to even more passive reading if they don't have to remember anything on their own, but can just click a button and have answers.
I'm just not seeing any benefit from these extras.
Wiktor
Member
When it comes to novels unique writtign styles and advances in writing are "new technology". Not multimedia features that turn it into something different than a novel.
Yeah, in the same way someone would talk about next gen games, and what they'd like to see in them, I really wasn't poo pooing books as they are.
I appreciate the opinion from a subjective point of view, but I do completely disagree. Talking strictly about novels, I don't for example think that authors who choose to occasionally throw in an illustration are somehow making a more passive book - I think engaging the mind in different ways of anything can make your brain now active. I also keep saying this, but comic books provide a different experience than traditional novels, but I don't think anyone thinks that they reduce the integrity of the reading experience, not anymore at least.
The crutch you talk about already exists in the book, and people are going to use it if they want it - I've often times gone back chapters when confused, or when I've put down a book for too long. The ability to do so easier is just acknowledging this. What's particularly good about this sort of feature is that it isn't mandatory. You don't have to look up a character, you only do it if you want to.
I think it's also important I emphasize, I'm not just talking about novels here.
phillipgessert
Member
I think your argument will be stronger if you limit it to the genre formats you tend to use in your examples, rather than to 'books' at large. Because the general reading public is honestly not relieved or convinced when you roll out comic books and fantasy novels for the millionth time. However, fans of those genres and formats probably ARE more prone to want this flavor of enrichment, because it plays well with the desires of that fanbase.
And I get that you aren't talking about novels alone, but so far your non-fiction examples have basically been 'footnotes but different'.
And I get that you aren't talking about novels alone, but so far your non-fiction examples have basically been 'footnotes but different'.
Jeesh. "books are boring." I could not disagree more. books are wonderful. reading and learning even with plain old written text can be involving and entertaining without any extra bells and whistles.
but at now I understand why the OP wants to have netflix running on his google glasses while doing dishes. Apparently he can't be more than 5 minutes without audio/visual stimulation.
but at now I understand why the OP wants to have netflix running on his google glasses while doing dishes. Apparently he can't be more than 5 minutes without audio/visual stimulation.
But this just seems to be saying "lets keep books the same for the sake of keeping them the same". Which, I guess maybe I am broken in this regard, doesn't appeal to me. I don't have any romanticization of the format, and I understand that books have been constrained by paper and ink for a long time.
I don't think there is anything perfect about the format, I think that perfection isn't something that will ever be achieved by anything, so there is always room for improvement, for experimentation and trying new things. I don't particularly think this is a radical ideology either.
That's neither here nor there - I mean if you like we can discuss the merits of a media rich (media includes books brah) life, but I don't see how it's relevant to what I am actually attempting to discuss.
Do you have any direct comments on anything I've said? I really wouldn't mind a discussion, but you're talking about what I am saying in a very holistic way, let's get nitty gritty. Do you think X-Ray is bad?
The thing is I'm not really looking for an argument! I don't want to necessarily convince anyone of anything - most of the arguing I have been doing is trying to clear up misconceptions of what I am saying. I am occasionally challenging some thoughts as well "books are perfect the way they are, adding extra media to text makes books worse" - because I don't think those are realistic arguments, considering the scope of books that have illustrations in them, even on paper.
I want people to start talking about textbooks and manuals, and I have mentioned them a bit in my examples - but people don't want to talk about text books and manuals, they want to talk about novels.
If my CSS book had rich examples of the CSS, or little animations, it would be a more enriching experience for me personally - and I assume(d) for others. It seems like LCfiner for example thinks that any extra media content in a book is a detriment, but I don't know if he is considering things like maybe a book that talks about wildlife - maybe it could have an animation of the animal occasionally, or an interactive map that shows a birds migration patterns.
I have tons of ideas, and I am willing to share them! And I would really like to talk more, and argue less. However if people have a fundamental issue with the idea that books in and of themselves aren't perfect, then I have to address that before I can even begin to discuss those ideas.
phillipgessert
Member
Don't get too hung up on my use of the word 'argument'. I only mean you are making a case for an idea. I gotta say though, you opted to hang onto that word rather than discussing my actual point about genre-specific desires and needs, and this looks like a trend with you in this thread. Grasping for the low-lying fruit of a statement while ignoring the actual meat of what's being said. And then, ironically, stating that you don't understand why no one is listening to you as you beat illustration's drum for the umpteenth time.
We do hear you. It's a weak position and here's why. You are effectively stating that new things are better than old things, because they are just like them. The reason the conversation never seems to end is because you are having it out both sides of your mouth.
Well, I think it varies depending on how different it is - it might need a new category depending (like comic books needed from books) but I would still consider it a book as long as it focused heavily on reading, had a page to page format and was published as such. The name really doesn't matter to me though.
That being said, it's not that I JUST want books that are extremely media rich, some more subtle implementations I think would be interesting as well - or things that have so many bells and whistles that it becomes a completely new type of reading experience - I am comfortable with the idea of a full spectrum of things.
I'm old fashioned because I think reading can be its own reward. When I'm reading a novel, I don't wish I had links embedded or more pictures, or voice clips.
Sprucing up literature with bells and whistles doesn't appeal to me at all. Now, there are exceptions for textbooks, artbooks or books explaining certain physical processes that benefit from a visual aid.(eg: showing how an internal combustion engine works or how an embryo develops) But that's not all books and it's still possible to learn and get interested in complex subjects without those extensions.
I don't think Xray is bad. I just think it's useless. it's not a selling point for me. I could take it or leave it.
I appreciate your input. It's interesting that people seem to feel very strongly about novels staying the same, but not other formats - I wonder why that is. I actually really don't know, and I imagine it is more than just sentimentality.
I think the value on X-Ray is that it isn't an 'in your face' feature, it's very much something you can completely ignore and have the same regular experience you enjoy. It seems for novels, if I were ever to be in a position where I could input these sorts of features into an enovel of my own, it would be essential that I provide some dual experience - where someone could get the regular reading experience without being encouraged or forced to use any extra features or functionality. At least going off of people in this thread.
That being said, I really do think stuff like instructional or non-fiction books can really benefit from some rich-media, things like biology or chemistry books for example could have much more useful diagrams and displays if we pushed the envelope in that regard.
For educational purposes, I'm fine with interactive versions of books. That said, I don't think programming is necessary for books meant for literary or entertainment purposes. I'm not against making versions that are, but I would personally find it distracting rather than helpful.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
There's already an e-book niche for this kind of stuff, and maybe it'll grow into its own corner of the market like graphic novels, but I think the plain text-on-paper/eInk novel will keep surviving well into this century. Basically, the death of the novel is something that's been talked about every couple of years since forever like how Nintendo is doomed.
This is the thread I wanted to bump.
I believe this is exactly what OP is talking about:
http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012/snow-fall/
A story told entirely in HTML5.
I believe this is exactly what OP is talking about:
http://www.nytimes.com/projects/2012/snow-fall/
A story told entirely in HTML5.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Supplementary stuff is cool, but books are fine as they are.
Shouldn't the title be eBooks are boring? How would you cram this into a physical medium?
What will happen when I lose power/internet? All of a sudden, my book is different?
How will I lend out these books to people? Does everyone need a new eBook reader for this to work? How would you distribute this to the poor folks? Do you tell them to bad so sad? Would I pay more for these features? Who will host these things?
Frankly, most of the time, when a fantasy book shows me a map, I never look back at it. If they provided me with pictures, most of the time, I think, 'damn, that's not how I imagined he'd look, he look so, <insert depreciating comment here>'.
I'm more of a question asker than a question answerer.
What will happen when I lose power/internet? All of a sudden, my book is different?
How will I lend out these books to people? Does everyone need a new eBook reader for this to work? How would you distribute this to the poor folks? Do you tell them to bad so sad? Would I pay more for these features? Who will host these things?
Frankly, most of the time, when a fantasy book shows me a map, I never look back at it. If they provided me with pictures, most of the time, I think, 'damn, that's not how I imagined he'd look, he look so, <insert depreciating comment here>'.
I'm more of a question asker than a question answerer.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
a normal book on a kindle paperwhite is the pinacle of book awesome.
If they can make the device even better and display absolutely perfect text with no other visible stuff, that's brilliant.
I think side buttons for page change on the paperwhite would be better. other than that, perfect.
If they can make the device even better and display absolutely perfect text with no other visible stuff, that's brilliant.
I think side buttons for page change on the paperwhite would be better. other than that, perfect.
agreed, just read this ebook
about music appreciation. It provides video examples illustrating what the author is saying about classical pieces. Without the video it would be dry, boring and nowhere near as enlightening.
amen
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