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[Gallbaro]

Boarders and Barnes & Nobles might be able to survive if they transition to a upscale library/netflix model, charging membership just to get in the front door and a tiered borrowing structure.

The bottom line is the "atmosphere" generated by having pure costs occupy your space and generate no revenue is not sustainable.

 

[ant_]

You mean the Borders Kobo was not a success?

Shocking.

 

[Trent Strong]

OMFG THE INVENTION OF TEH WEEHHL WIILL MAEK RUNNER OBSOLETE, THING ABOUT TEH LOST JEWRBS

This is a truly stupid discussion

You can't just take it on faith that there will necessarily be different jobs that will take the place of these jobs being lost due to new technologies. Maybe there will be, but we just don't know.

 

[silentspork]

What is being forgotten (or omitted to suit your arguments) is that these companies don't exist a vacuum.

Sure a store may be suffering because of advances like digital distribution and online marketplaces, but if Amazon is growing do they not need to employ more people? Who do you think works in the warehouses? Who do you think handles fulfilling orders? I've seen these types of warehouses before and they aren't nearly as automated as some would think.

Who do you think actually gets the packages from distributor to customer? Isn't Amazon's success good for delivery services such as UPS, FedEx and Amazon? There are even delivery services like Ensenda that work with local delivery services so that they can be used by online retailers like Amazon and Newegg.

Will the jobs created equal out to those lost? Probably not, but it hardly ever works out that way when it comes to technological innovation. But as the economy improves people will adapt, and new companies will be created to service the needs of people today.

 

[Yaweee]

You can't just take it on faith that there will necessarily be different jobs that will take the place of these jobs being lost due to new technologies. Maybe there will be, but we just don't know.

Current and historical employment rates versus the entirety of human technological advancement says, yes, tech advances produce no meaningful decrease in overall employment rates.

 

[Future]

All of which Borders offers. Its not enough because there are people like Ninja Scooter that go use those services, make notes of what they want to buy, then go online to Amazon.


For books? No. Unless it is a NYT bestseller at Walmart/Costco or some kind of close-out deal or used, that does not happen. Borders and Barnes and Nobles are the same price for books unless there is a sale.

I dont think you read what I said. Yes Borders offers that, they have for a long time. But they sat on this and did little to adapt to what was happening. They just let others take over, while wasting money trying making acrappier kindle. Similar to Blockbuster's downfall to services like netflix. They needed to make more effort to drive consumers into their stores. People will pay a few bucks extra if the service is worth it.

And the prices are stupid. Not so much for books (Amazon of course is cheaper) but for everything else in that damn store. Near christmas I walked into their dvd section and walked right the hell back out. Zero incentive for me to buy anything in there.

 

[silentspork]

You mean the Borders Kobo was not a success?

Shocking.

Until today I didn't even know that Borders had an E-reader, which I think is indicative of the level of effort they are putting into penetrating that market.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Current and historical employment rates versus the entirety of human technological advancement says, yes, tech advances produce no meaningful decrease in overall employment rates.

Yep.

It's like the people that see snow and start going on about how global warming is a scam. You can't single out examples as being representative of the broad picture in something as complex as this.

 

[Raistlin]

I just don't see that from Borders.

You really need to reread what I was responding to

I'm not sure why you keep referring to Borders

 

[Loki]

That's why in the 80s EVERYTHING was "made in Japan" and then wages started to rise, so now we've seen the move to China and THEIR wages have been rising so they've been moving to OTHER countries.

Hmmm...corporations sorta sound like scavengers. Parasites, even. Go figure.

 

[Celsior]

Some of you know Borders was in trouble before the digital book revolution?

Blaming a store closing on the consumer who will not buy overprices products is just stupid.

 

[water_wendi]

What is being forgotten (or omitted to suit your arguments) is that these companies don't exist a vacuum.

Sure a store may be suffering because of advances like digital distribution and online marketplaces, but if Amazon is growing do they not need to employ more people? Who do you think works in the warehouses? Who do you think handles fulfilling orders? I've seen these types of warehouses before and they aren't nearly as automated as some would think.

Who do you think actually gets the packages from distributor to customer? Isn't Amazon's success good for delivery services such as UPS, FedEx and Amazon? There are even delivery services like Ensenda that work with local delivery services so that they can be used by online retailers like Amazon and Newegg.

Will the jobs created equal out to those lost? Probably not[, but it hardly ever works out that way when it comes to technological innovation. But as the economy improves people will adapt, and new companies will be created to service the needs of people today.

i did address that. Of course these online companies employ people but they dont employ nowhere near as many people. Lets take Netflix to Blockbuster. Lets also just look at numbers of employees and ignore stuff like physical locations and the rent and taxes and services that would need to be part of the upkeep and the jobs that brings.

Blockbuster had 60,000 employees. Netflix has 2000. There isnt an even exchange here. Its not even close.

edit:

Some of you know Borders was in trouble before the digital book revolution?

Blaming a store closing on the consumer who will not buy overprices products is just stupid.

Its not the digital ebooks that hurt them back then. It was online competitors. Is there a bricks and mortar store that hasnt been hurt by online?

 

[Gallbaro]

Hmmm...corporations sorta sound like scavengers. Parasites, even. Go figure.

That is actually the global economy getting the greatest possible production out of the resources available to it.

-This function has improved the quality of your life by immeasurable amounts.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Blockbuster had 60,000 employees. Netflix has 2000. There isnt an even exchange here. Its not even close.

GAF has one employee. What are you doing here?

 

[Slayven]

Boarders and Barnes & Nobles might be able to survive if they transition to a upscale library/netflix model, charging membership just to get in the front door and a tiered borrowing structure.

The bottom line is the "atmosphere" generated by having pure costs occupy your space and generate no revenue is not sustainable.

So they would just be a library?

 

[water_wendi]

GAF has one employee. What are you doing here?

My apologies to all the people that are unemployed because i spent my dollars here at GAF instead of at their place.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

My apologies to all the people that are unemployed because i spent my dollars here at GAF instead of at their place.

What do you think happened to gaming magazines and then gaming websites? How often do you see people talk about how GAF has replaced all of that because they get the news here first?

In summary, lol @ you.

 

[Gallbaro]

So they would just be a library?

Exactly, but there are probably enough people in this world that want the Barnes & Noble experience

Spoiler

entitled white people

rather than the library experience that they actually would pay just to sit in the isles reading shit comic books.

 

[silentspork]

i did address that. Of course these online companies employ people but they dont employ nowhere near as many people. Lets take Netflix to Blockbuster. Lets also just look at numbers of employees and ignore stuff like physical locations and the rent and taxes and services that would need to be part of the upkeep and the jobs that brings.

Blockbuster had 60,000 employees. Netflix has 2000. There isnt an even exchange here. Its not even close.

edit:

Its not the digital ebooks that hurt them back then. It was online competitors. Is there a bricks and mortar store that hasnt been hurt by online?

Well my apologies if I missed it, I think I missed about a page of the thread before posting that.

 

[Tobor]

i did address that. Of course these online companies employ people but they dont employ nowhere near as many people. Lets take Netflix to Blockbuster. Lets also just look at numbers of employees and ignore stuff like physical locations and the rent and taxes and services that would need to be part of the upkeep and the jobs that brings.

Blockbuster had 60,000 employees. Netflix has 2000. There isnt an even exchange here. Its not even close.

edit:

Its not the digital ebooks that hurt them back then. It was online competitors. Is there a bricks and mortar store that hasnt been hurt by online?

Yes, the jobs disappear, never to be heard from again. When Tower Records went under, all of those people became permanently unemployed, and when i drive by the old location, the store is now a decaying burned out dead zone, where the homeless hold pit fighting tournaments.

Oh, wait, it's actually been replaced by a Staples, that employs just as many people, if not more, than the Tower Records did. Shocking.

 

[water_wendi]

What do you think happened to gaming magazines and then gaming websites? How often do you see people talk about how GAF has replaced all of that because they get the news here first?

In summary, lol @ you.

You are right. i, through GAF, put them all out of business. All the websites i didnt frequent for coverage of consoles i didnt own, i apologize. i also apologize to the future unemployment that befalls those that work at the magazines i currently have subscriptions with. My sincerest apologies.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

You are right. i, through GAF, put them all out of business. All the websites i didnt frequent for coverage of consoles i didnt own, i apologize. i also apologize to the future unemployment that befalls those that work at the magazines i currently have subscriptions with. My sincerest apologies.

You started this whole mess by trying to blame the consumer for the failures of stagnant corporations. Everyone has been pointing out how hilariously wrong that is, but now you're agreeing with that and going against the argument you started with.

 

[Loki]

That is actually the global economy getting the greatest possible production out of the resources available to it.

-This function has improved the quality of your life by immeasurable amounts.

Myopic view of things, no offense.

 

[water_wendi]

Yes, the jobs disappear, never to be heard from again. When Tower Records went under, all of those people became permanently unemployed, and when i drive by the old location, the store is now a decaying burned out dead zone, where the homeless hold pit fighting tournaments.

Oh, wait, it's actually been replaced by a Staples, that employs just as many people, if not more, than the Tower Records did. Shocking.

Its a good thing Staples has a physical presence so they can hire people in your city. How many people in your city who used to work at Blockbuster went to work at Netflix?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Its a good thing Staples has a physical presence so they can hire people in your city. How many people in your city who used to work at Blockbuster went to work at Netflix?

I worked at Blockbuster as a teenager. I'm totally fine now.

I like how you keep equating the employment threshold of real stores with online jobs. Millions of jobs have been created by the Internet. For every failing dinosaur store, 100s of people have created new job opportunities through new websites, new applications, new ideas, and new businesses on the Internet.

 

[Trent Strong]

Current and historical employment rates versus the entirety of human technological advancement says, yes, tech advances produce no meaningful decrease in overall employment rates.

What about wages? In the 50s, a guy could work a manufacturing job and support a whole family nicely. Today's analogue of that 1950s guy is working for 9 dollars an hour and can only survive because he and his wife both work and they live in a slum instead of in a nice house.

 

[Tobor]

Its a good thing Staples has a physical presence so they can hire people in your city. How many people in your city who used to work at Blockbuster went to work at Netflix?

That's irrelevant. Retail is retail. They don't have to work for Netflix to balance the scales.

 

[water_wendi]

You started this whole mess by trying to blame the consumer for the failures of stagnant corporations. Everyone has been pointing out how hilariously wrong that is, but now you're agreeing with that and going against the argument you started with.

i was being sarcastic. i didnt spend money at GAF that i would have spent elsewhere. People dont spend money at Borders but spend it at Amazon. Do you not see the difference?

 

[Gaborn]

I worked at Blockbuster as a teenager. I'm totally fine now.

Seriously. Realistically a job like blockbuster or a cashier at Borders is unskilled labor. Even if you don't get a job at a similar company you can find the same sort of position offered by a variety of businesses.

 

[water_wendi]

That's irrelevant. Retail is retail. They don't have to work for Netflix to balance the scales.

Retail is retail? LOL

Ok whatever. You guys are just being silly now.

Seriously. Realistically a job like blockbuster or a cashier at Borders is unskilled labor. Even if you don't get a job at a similar company you can find the same sort of position offered by a variety of businesses.

My point is that the amount of jobs available is shrinking because entire areas of retail are going bye-bye because of online.

People say "ITS OKAY LOL.. REMEMBER THE WHEEL!" seem to think that employers just magically spring up out of nowhere. The online entities replacing these retail companies are 1) not local in almost every case and 2) dont employ nowhere near the same amount of people the business they are replacing used to staff. Because of these things there is a net job loss.

Maybe im completely wrong and things are going to be okay, but i look around and it doesnt seem that way to me.

 

[CabbageRed]

Depressing. The only other bookstore I have within walking distance is a used book store that is clearly run by a very Christian, very sex-starved lady who decides what books to buy based on her tastes.

I'm more than happy to pay a premium for physically browsing through shelves of books. Portland is 20 minutes away by train so I'm not entirely without options, but I'll miss the late night walks.

 

[Trent Strong]

i did address that. Of course these online companies employ people but they dont employ nowhere near as many people. Lets take Netflix to Blockbuster. Lets also just look at numbers of employees and ignore stuff like physical locations and the rent and taxes and services that would need to be part of the upkeep and the jobs that brings.

Blockbuster had 60,000 employees. Netflix has 2000. There isnt an even exchange here. Its not even close.

edit:

Its not the digital ebooks that hurt them back then. It was online competitors. Is there a bricks and mortar store that hasnt been hurt by online?

Netflix only employs 2000 people? That can't be right. Surely it takes more than 2000 people to sort, recieve and send all those DVDs all over the country every day.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

i was being sarcastic. i didnt spend money at GAF that i would have spent elsewhere. People dont spend money at Borders but spend it at Amazon. Do you not see the difference?

No, people spend money everywhere they want.

You're still seeing it like Borders ---> Amazon. It's more like Borders ---> Amazon + 5000 other websites + all the new products that have been invented since Borders started business.

For example, people buy applications on their cell phones now. Millions of developers have millions of new jobs making things for cell phones. How many people did Borders employ again?

 

[silentspork]

Seriously. Realistically a job like blockbuster or a cashier at Borders is unskilled labor. Even if you don't get a job at a similar company you can find the same sort of position offered by a variety of businesses.

And if there is truely a demand for those types of services then another business will eventually fulfill the demand.

 

[Captain Sparrow]

All I gotta say on one hand the economy is terrible, there are no jobs, and people like to blame Obama for all of it. Then on the other hand, consumers want everything for the cheapest price possible. Something has to give. Where are jobs going to come from when a big corporation like BlockBuster who create tons of jobs for students, management, etc. Now they were replaced with a kiosk.

Sooo much could be fixed/prevented in our economy if we had been taxing internet sales all this time. Imagine if that tax revenue had gone to our states and the layoffs would have stopped.

I just wonder why we haven't seen Amazon claimed as a monopoly yet? Wal-Mart always got tons of crap for their "tactics", but at least they provided local jobs. Amazons tactics are just as bad as Wal-Marts, if not worse.

 

[Tobor]

Retail is retail? LOL

Ok whatever. You guys are just being silly now.

Yep. Care to explain how I'm wrong? Another store will replace the Borders. Hopefully one with a sustainable business model.

 

[jamesinclair]

I find it kinda silly to defend old business models by blaming consumers, it's not the consumers job to adapt but the companies. but what do i know?

Once again, its not the business model.

ITS TAX EVASION.

 

[water_wendi]

Yep. Care to explain how I'm wrong? Another store will replace the Borders. Hopefully one with a sustainable business model.

i wish i could afford the gas to drive around and fill up my 2gb sd card with nothing but pictures of places that are empty. Everywhere i look its FOR LEASE.

 

[Parham]

Retail is retail? LOL

Ok whatever. You guys are just being silly now.

You are trying to defend a company that lacked foresight and you are calling us silly?

 

[Gaborn]

You are trying to defend a company that lacked foresight and you are calling us silly?

More than that, he's advocating taxing EMAIL.

 

[water_wendi]

You are trying to defend a company that lacked foresight and you are calling us silly?

Does that make the numbers wrong?

 

[Tobor]

i wish i could afford the gas to drive around and fill up my 2gb sd card with nothing but pictures of places that are empty. Everywhere i look its FOR LEASE.

Sounds like you should move.

 

[Dr.Palutena]

Once again, its not the business model.

ITS TAX EVASION.

The conversation here has long since moved away from taxes, no one here seems to disagree with the fact that the government should be enforcing online retailers to pay taxes. frankly people would still shop online at amazon and the thousands of other sites even with taxes applied, heck i'm anecdotal proof of this since i am living in new york state right now, the convenience and cheaper prices of amazon even after factoring prices is far more a motivation than evading taxes.

 

[silentspork]

All I gotta say on one hand the economy is terrible, there are no jobs, and people like to blame Obama for all of it. Then on the other hand, consumers want everything for the cheapest price possible. Something has to give. Where are jobs going to come from when a big corporation like BlockBuster who create tons of jobs for students, management, etc. Now they were replaced with a kiosk.

Sooo much could be fixed/prevented in our economy if we had been taxing internet sales all this time. Imagine if that tax revenue had gone to our states and the layoffs would have stopped.

I just wonder why we haven't seen Amazon claimed as a monopoly yet? Wal-Mart always got tons of crap for their "tactics", but at least they provided local jobs. Amazons tactics are just as bad as Wal-Marts, if not worse.

I think you'll find most here would agree with you - states have been missing out on significant amounts of revenue which will only get worse over time. It is going to happen sooner or later.

 

[jamesinclair]

You people talking about one retail store replacing another completely miss the point.

Tower records -> Best Buy

Ok. Both hire local people to work in local stores and pay local wages. Casheirs, assistant managers, customer service, etc.
INCOME TAX.
Both pay for retail space.
PROPERTY TAX.
Both sell to local consumers.
SALES TAX.

Both requires janitorial services, plumbers, security etc etc. They keep the local economy humming.



Best Buy -> Amazon.

Amazon hires no local people. Warehouse and IT? Sure....but best buy has those too. 600 IT people in south dakota does not replace 60,000 cashiers when it comes to keeping the economy humming.

Amazon has no local presence. Empty storefronts, zero property taxes.

Amazon consumers evade sales taxes in most states.


Do you people not see how this is unsustainable?

Less revenue for government. Less revenue for shopping centers. Less jobs for people.

 

[Ulairi]

Does that make the numbers wrong?

You have a simplistic view of the world and are ignorant of the facts of international trade, corporate finance and general business. I suggest you enroll in a local community college and take introduction to finance, economics, and business and improve your skill set. Periods of change due to technology has lead to the greatest economic expansion and the broadest set of wealth in the history of the world.

 

[Ulairi]

You people talking about one retail store replacing another completely miss the point.

Tower records -> Best Buy

Ok. Both hire local people to work in local stores and pay local wages. Casheirs, assistant managers, customer service, etc.
INCOME TAX.
Both pay for retail space.
PROPERTY TAX.
Both sell to local consumers.
SALES TAX.

Both requires janitorial services, plumbers, security etc etc. They keep the local economy humming.



Best Buy -> Amazon.

Amazon hires no local people. Warehouse and IT? Sure....but best buy has those too. 600 IT people in south dakota does not replace 60,000 cashiers when it comes to keeping the economy humming.

Amazon has no local presence. Empty storefronts, zero property taxes.

Amazon consumers evade sales taxes in most states.


Do you people not see how this is unsustainable?

Less revenue for government. Less revenue for shopping centers. Less jobs for people.

How do you tax properly for sales tax? Is it paid on where the product ships from? The consumer lives? Tell me the logistics of how the state of Wisconsin is owed money when I purchase a book that ships from Kansas to me? Amazon pays taxes in every local they operate.

If you think the college and high school kids operating the registers at your local best buy are what keeps the economy going, you're clueless. They don't. They never will.

 

[water_wendi]

You have a simplistic view of the world and are ignorant of the facts of international trade, corporate finance and general business. I suggest you enroll in a local community college and take introduction to finance, economics, and business and improve your skill set. Periods of change due to technology has lead to the greatest economic expansion and the broadest set of wealth in the history of the world.

Can you explain how im wrong? Jamessinclair just posted a very nice summary of what ive been saying on GAF for years. How is that incorrect?

 

[godhandiscen]

But what about the Manga Cows? They will never survive in the wild.

wtf please don't close Borders, where else will I go to read my manga in the aisles

I found it funny.

 

[Vyer]

That's too bad. They've been sending me 30 & 40 % off coupons like they are going out of style.