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Boon: Hardcore Rep Hinders Sales for Fighting Games
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
Sir Garbageman said:
Only the games that embrace that "hardcore" image without trying to appeal to casuals. See Virtua Fighter.
Tekken, Soul Calibur, DoA, Street Fighter...all hardcore games (though I know many would argue about DoA, perhaps SC as well), that peform quite well and are very accessible to casuals.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
This has been Ed Boon's line since Moredull Combat first appeared.
The genre now has Smash Brothers to pander to casuals. And unlike Smash Brothers, nobody plays MK competitively, even jokingly.
The genre now has Smash Brothers to pander to casuals. And unlike Smash Brothers, nobody plays MK competitively, even jokingly.
Neuromancer
Member
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I get itThe Take Out Bandit said:
Loxley said:
It's mostly this and this.
"Casual" fighters (like me) don't play Super Street 4 150hours a week 7 days a week with that wielding itself into our PS3/360. And some people (I'm willing, but I get easily annoyed at some of the moves required in the exercise mode) are unwilling to sit down and play in the training mode for 5-6 hours per character (exaggeration a bit, but it does take a bit of time to learn characters).
Then there is some moves like...
GameFAQs Soul Calibur 2 Ivy FAQ said:
(Of course, looking at that it seems a LOT easier to pull off compared to what it looked like in the move list of SC2 X-box version I have)
You're REALLY expecting someone to pull that move off in the heat of battle consistently if they don't put in the hours of training mode?
The Street Fighter (and "versus") work as a casual fighter because most of the moves are QCF/HCF, QCB/HCB x 2 or in some cases (like 'gief) 360f, 360b + PP/KK/FP/WP/FK/HK/MK/MP. Plus these are easy to remember compared to some 3D fighters out there.
So it's these three things (knowing you're going to get your ass kicked by someone more hardcore in the genre than you, having to spend a bunch of time in training mode/learning curve, execution of some moves and having it be sort-of random unless you put the time into it) that work against the fighting genre.
This isn't to say "fighting games are hard
" they aren't. They just have a learning curve/time-to-master that is different from other games. Yeah, you may lose a lot at the beginning of a FPS (if it's your first time with them) but they have a less steep slope to climb compared to fighting games.Edit: (Damn it Firefox, stop eating my paragraphs to where I have weird tacked on sentences at the end)
PflargBlarg
Member
Cerrius said:
Yep, there's a whole bunch of characters that fight each other, clearly not a fighting game.
Stop this shit.
A Twisty Fluken
Member
If you are talking about sales, you might want to check your work.Skilletor said:
Out of curiosity, when was the last dead or alive game released?
Smash Bros, Powerstone, Rakugaki Showtime, and Guardian Hero's versus modes need to form their own Genre... so we can see more games like them, rather than just 1 good one every 6 years or so... (T_ T )
As far has Hardcore rep hindering fighters... yeah. I think Smash avoided a lot of it because:
A: You understand 90% of it in 10 seconds of playing. and
B: It looks and plays nothing like a traditional fighter, thus carries little of the genre's stigma.
The fans of fighters can be hard to approach; The communities are stingy and rude, the games offers a bunch of "stupid kung fu action" stuff, and not many companies make the games in a form that anyone BUT a gamer would want to approach.
I wonder what would happen if a Japanese company made a VERY Western style Military training-style fighter. Everything would be westernized save for gameplay, which would have links and 2-in-ones and some form of supers and specials and everything... Would that really sale? I have to wonder...
I think I'm one of the few peopel who'se looking forward to the Deadliest Warrior XBLA game. A love "Lite" fighters. (And it looks like semi-Bushido Blade!) I'll never spend the kinda time and dedication with them that I spend with KoF and SF, but they're the kinda games anyone can pick up and play, because they're quick to grasp, and swiftly satisfying...
As far has Hardcore rep hindering fighters... yeah. I think Smash avoided a lot of it because:
A: You understand 90% of it in 10 seconds of playing. and
B: It looks and plays nothing like a traditional fighter, thus carries little of the genre's stigma.
The fans of fighters can be hard to approach; The communities are stingy and rude, the games offers a bunch of "stupid kung fu action" stuff, and not many companies make the games in a form that anyone BUT a gamer would want to approach.
I wonder what would happen if a Japanese company made a VERY Western style Military training-style fighter. Everything would be westernized save for gameplay, which would have links and 2-in-ones and some form of supers and specials and everything... Would that really sale? I have to wonder...
I think I'm one of the few peopel who'se looking forward to the Deadliest Warrior XBLA game. A love "Lite" fighters. (And it looks like semi-Bushido Blade!) I'll never spend the kinda time and dedication with them that I spend with KoF and SF, but they're the kinda games anyone can pick up and play, because they're quick to grasp, and swiftly satisfying...
vocab said:
Like what a Military Sim? Because FPS is:
-Shoot
-Map coverage
-Respawn time
-Reaction speed
Edit: Oh and -Right weapon for the map/area/versus other player (Shotgun is not a good idea against a Rocket)
In Q3A.
FPS high-level play WILL eat a lower level player alive, but the learning curve for a FPS is less STEEP compared to a fighting game. I don't get what you're laughing about.
Edit: And high level play will eat ANY lower level player alive in ANY genre. But that's not my point. The learning curve for sports/FPS/racing games is noticeably LOWER in comparison to fighting games.
Before you ":lol " a post, however, how about you READ the context of it?
Kaijima said:
I think you're confusing artstyle and actual character designs. To me at least, SFIII's main problem isn't the artstyle, but the characters (like Necro or Urien, seriously wtf). Like you, I think this is a major turn-off in games like Tekken too. SFIV's problem is the artstyle (ugly faces and huge muscles included), although some character designs are really, really awful as well (Rufus and Hakan being the prime offenders if you ask me).
Ask what people who dislike SFIII what's wrong with it, and they'll say that they hate the cast. Ask what people who dislike SFIV what's wrong with it, and they'll say that they hate how ugly the characters they love look. At some point in the development of the game, someone seriously thought that Guile looked all right.
However, I think that character designs are more important that artstyle. No matter how beautifully you draw Twelve, Necro, Remy and Urien (off the top of my head), they're still uninteresting and/or outlandish. I'd take SFIV's artstyle over SFIII's characters any day.
With all that said, there's more to the success of a game than its visual direction, obviously.
Zoramon089
Banned
SAB CA said:
Ugh, I hate when Smash is grouped with those games. It has much more in common with traditional fighters than those games do. You can't even block in Powerstone!
Skilletor said:
My rig is not that good! It's probably messing up my inputs!
ReiGun said:
Dunno if I have the meter for this, but here goes...!
The Best Jojo's Bizarre Adventure match I've ever seen
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
It's floaty and unbalanced as hell, but Guardian Heroes' versus mode qualifies as a standard 2D fighter imo.Zoramon089 said:
Zoramon089 said:
But you can get mutliple friends together for a fun time, where everyone has a collection of lifebars, and has to beat each other up, in a stage with some style of dynamic manipulation (different planes, transforming bits, stage hazards, etc.)
Smash doesn't sell to the masses because of it's Wave Dashing, guard canceling, or linking ability... it sells because it's a fun party game.
I'd say Guardian Heroes has as much, if not more in common with traditional fighters as Smash, anywho... Backstepping, combo linking, juggling, weak and strong varities of moves, some characters even have spirit charge like old SNK games, and the game even uses fireball and dragon punch motions....
Beardz
Member
I think fighting games are hardcore by nature, their mechanics can be more or less accessible, but the fact that you are playing against another human 1 vs 1, with just your skills is pretty hardcore.
Btw, I love fighting games and I can't wait for the new MK "Nothing, nothing can prepare you".
Btw, I love fighting games and I can't wait for the new MK "Nothing, nothing can prepare you".
PLEASE let's not start this shit.
Smash Bros is a fighting game. It is not a traditional fighting game (health bar, meant to be played with arcade stick controls, you know what I'm talking about), but still a fighting game nonetheless.
Smash Bros is a fighting game. It is not a traditional fighting game (health bar, meant to be played with arcade stick controls, you know what I'm talking about), but still a fighting game nonetheless.
and if we're talking about Melee, one of the most exciting, fun and deep fighting games of all time
jon bones said:
Thank you.
TheSeks said:
So you think all that's easy right? I guess hitting Jab short forward strong fierce and roundhouse is easy too right? Basically fighting games is hitting a bunch of buttons and joystick motions all with a common goal to win. Man, that is steep.
Prime crotch
Banned
The hardcore community is what keeps the game alive. The problem is aside from nostalgia, which is solely SF4's reason for sales, how you're gonna sell a fighting game avoiding making it look too technical?
You know, I'd have to think a Fighter with a leveling system (Not for ranks, but for, y'know, actually making your character stronger) with loads of unlockable moves and such, could easily bring the Genre to the masses.
Give a hardcore a reason to pit nerfed forms of themselves aganist statistically-stronger noobs (Like additional EXP or a higher rank of outfits or something), and I think there'd be alot more fun intermingling between ability levels.
Kinda like the Dragonball games, but more balanced, and with character designs that aren't as polarizing as Toriyama's...
Give a hardcore a reason to pit nerfed forms of themselves aganist statistically-stronger noobs (Like additional EXP or a higher rank of outfits or something), and I think there'd be alot more fun intermingling between ability levels.
Kinda like the Dragonball games, but more balanced, and with character designs that aren't as polarizing as Toriyama's...
The Lamonster
Member
I've always respected Ed Boon and I'm really happy for him and his team that this new MK is generating so much positive hype. I'm sure it will sell well and be a much deserved shot in the arm for the MK series.
Prime crotch
Banned
Nope, what the fighting game genre doesnt need is unlockable perks like MW2. The hardcore players are already at an advantage by playing the game longer, unlockables would ruin any attempt at balance since mr. 9000 points has the one hit kill perk.SAB CA said:
Prime crotch
Banned
Everyone five months after release would have unlocked Shin Dark Evil Gouki Akuma, dlc unlocks MUGEN modeFersis said:
A Twisty Fluken said:
DoA4, which was a launch 360 title. But the series has done well sales-wise since Dreamcast.
I don't do sales-age, but I thought I saw that T6 performed pretty well on psp and next gen consoles. If not, the game has performed well in the past, so I don't see your point. Are you saying Tekken isn't successful?
Search no Jutsu: found this http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386509
Namco says it sold well. 400k in Japan alone
Edit: read that wrong, 400k in japan and asia
I know T5 did well on psp, and that's saying something considering the platform. I don't know numbers for psp about T6, though. Vaguely remember hearing it did good numbers.
:lol Y'all are funny!
I've never even played a full COD game, so it's not based off of that.
If anything, it's based much more off Dungeon Fighter Online, Guardian Heroes, especially the fun in GH of playing a lvl 5 aganist a 75 and leveling up mid battle. It was a unique experience that noone has attempted to grow.
But making a different fighter that plays differently, to broaden the appeal of the whole genre, isn't a bad thing. (Geeze, look at Smash.) That's how a genre grows. That's how you have various games for multiple skill levels. That's how you give everyone around you a chance to play, and not just the "hardcore" on one title, and the "casual" on the other.
You're right, that's exactly the opposite of what I'm saying! What I'm saying is that the game would encourage weaker players to rely on Skills/EXP/Whatever, and more Hardcore players would do more by their own control, under their own terms. The game would be set up to reward experts whom can play under such strenous conditions.
And Fersis! "Get your COD out of my KoF"? I spend more time in the KOF thread than you! :lol (And who the hell said this would be an idea for KoF? I don't want TAGGING in KoF, who said I want EXP in it? LoL, I'm talking something new, not chopping up something established.)
With your tweets about Battlefield or whatever it is, you probably play more FPS than me... I'm offended! (T __ T)
I've never even played a full COD game, so it's not based off of that.
If anything, it's based much more off Dungeon Fighter Online, Guardian Heroes, especially the fun in GH of playing a lvl 5 aganist a 75 and leveling up mid battle. It was a unique experience that noone has attempted to grow.
But making a different fighter that plays differently, to broaden the appeal of the whole genre, isn't a bad thing. (Geeze, look at Smash.) That's how a genre grows. That's how you have various games for multiple skill levels. That's how you give everyone around you a chance to play, and not just the "hardcore" on one title, and the "casual" on the other.
Prime crotch said:
You're right, that's exactly the opposite of what I'm saying! What I'm saying is that the game would encourage weaker players to rely on Skills/EXP/Whatever, and more Hardcore players would do more by their own control, under their own terms. The game would be set up to reward experts whom can play under such strenous conditions.
And Fersis! "Get your COD out of my KoF"? I spend more time in the KOF thread than you! :lol (And who the hell said this would be an idea for KoF? I don't want TAGGING in KoF, who said I want EXP in it? LoL, I'm talking something new, not chopping up something established.)
With your tweets about Battlefield or whatever it is, you probably play more FPS than me... I'm offended! (T __ T)
SatelliteOfLove said:
I'm not sure if I read this quote here on GAF or someplace else, but I agree with it:
"BlazBlue is a really fun fighting game, but you have to snort coke to be any good at it."
During my initial button mashing phase (something I do with every fighting game) I couldn't do crap with the characters I chose (Taokaka, Bang) and got my ass handed to me by my friend. I've got more experience with VF so that game isn't as bad for me, but picking it up now I'd need a strategy guide or some kind of transparent overlay to reference all the damn moves and combos.
Prime crotch
Banned
What I'm saying is that game changing unlockables and RPG grind are the worst thing to have happened to multiplayer games.SAB CA said:
Stuff like Virtua Fighter's crazy costumes is where it should be at.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
I think SAB_CA could be on to something. An online fighter with CoD-style levelling and perks could easily be the most unbalanced fighter ever, but the CoD kids eat that shit up. If a fighter dev could find a way to codify (lol) their game while still keeping it accessible for the beginner and competitive at tourney level, they could stand to make a lot of money.SAB CA said: