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Brexit | OT3 | A Feast for Crows

CCS

Banned
This article is both fantastic and depressing.

Zombie ideas about Brexit that refuse to die

It is highly likely that the Brexit negotiations will fail, imposing an abrupt shock on the UK economy and ruining relations with its neighbours. This view is condemned by those who insist we must be more positive. That is like advising someone who has just jumped off a building that, if only he thought positively, he could fly. To understand the state we are now in we need to understand the zombie ideas that hold so many Brexiters in their grip.

The first such idea is that the EU is being unreasonable in insisting that the broad terms of the divorce (if not the details) are settled before moving on to transitional arrangements. David Davis, who is in charge of the negotiations for the UK, complained to the House of Commons that “they are using time pressure to see if they can get more money out of us. Bluntly that’s what is going on — it’s obvious to anybody.” Indeed, it is. Stop complaining: that is what strong parties do.

A linked zombie idea is that the UK is really in a stronger position than the EU, because it runs a trade deficit with it. But, even in goods, UK exports to the EU are three times more important to the UK’s economy than vice versa (7.5 per cent of gross domestic product against 2.5 per cent). Even without the UK, the EU remains the second-largest economy in the world, with an economy almost six times bigger, at market prices, in 2016. The UK is negotiating with an economic superpower. How does that feel? Just ask the Canadians, now negotiating with the US over the North American Free Trade Agreement.

Even the notion that the EU’s priorities are unreasonable is a zombie idea. It makes sense for the EU to insist that the issues of money, Ireland and EU residents in the UK be dealt with, at least in principle, before moving on. It also has good reason to feel that the UK’s suggestions on the first two are inadequate or incoherent. Despite Theresa May’s helpful speech in Florence last month, the UK has not indicated in any detail what it thinks it owes: Boris Johnson’s statement that the EU can “go whistle” for money is characteristically unhelpful.

A further zombie idea is that the UK economy is a powerhouse. A reading of the latest economic survey from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development demonstrates how delusional this is. The UK has a good employment record. But its average productivity is at best mediocre and its productivity growth post-crisis is in the basement, down there with Italy’s. Investment is weak and relative export performance consistently dismal. Contrast Germany. Debt-fuelled consumption kept growth up after the Brexit referendum. But real wages are now falling and growth has weakened, partly due to the dawning reality that Brexit is likely to be ultra-hard, despite the chancellor Philip Hammond’s justified efforts to prevent this disaster from happening.

Yet another zombie idea is that the UK can survive quite well without a favourable deal with the EU or a transition to such a deal. It can, we are told, trade perfectly well on World Trade Organisation terms. In any case, trade with our neighbours just does not matter that much. But, as Mark Carney, governor of the Bank of England, has rightly noted, the initial impact of Brexit will be “deglobalisation”, not a “global Britain”.

This is self-evident. It is also impossible to compare today’s intra-industrial trade, particularly within supply chains, with the inter-industry trade of the 19th century, as some now do. In trade today both proximity and regulatory barriers matter. It will be impossible to offset the loss of favourable access to EU markets, which now take some 40 per cent of the UK’s exports. Even to start on this, the UK would have to reach favourable deals with the US, China and India, the actual and potential superpowers. In all such negotiations, the UK will be very much the weaker party. Talks would be brutal.

Yet another zombie is the idea that it will be possible to shift smoothly to WTO terms for trade with the EU. All procedures governing trade with the EU would need to be refashioned. That would take the enthusiastic co-operation of partners who will regard the UK as something like a pariah. Why should anybody think they will make it easy for the UK?

The last zombie is the idea that those who deny the claims of the Brexiters are “traitors” or “saboteurs” working against “the will of the people”. This is despotism. In a liberal democracy, we are all entitled to our opinions and to seek to overturn what we consider grossly mistaken decisions. The saboteurs are those whose zombie ideas have brought the UK to a ruinous break with its neighbours and natural partners. It is our right to argue this. And we will.
 
as bad as we all knew, just leaked to the wrong person, as he should of let the report do the talking without all the sarcasm and insults...

They should of sent it to the BBC etc first
The BBC? You mean those traitorous remoaners? /s

Edit: on a side note this Theresa May ‘give us a deal we can defend’ plea smells a bit desperate doesn’t it.
 

jelly

Member
Hello everyone, today on Downing Street, the word of the day is 'Dynamic' with a 'D' Duh.

giphy.gif


raw
 

PJV3

Member
Farage seems to be on another planet in another solar system, he thinks Merkel is the one under pressure because of German business to do a deal.

How can anyone with a functional head not see what is going on, absolutely barmy to pretend otherwise.
 

Maledict

Member
Farage seems to be on another planet in another solar system, he thinks Merkel is the one under pressure because of German business to do a deal.

This is an article of faith for brexiters who pretend to have a veneer of thought behind their decision. We’ve seen it in this thread quite recently. It’s utterly delusional.
 

jelly

Member
Farage seems to be on another planet in another solar system, he thinks Merkel is the one under pressure because of German business to do a deal.

He thinks people will stop buying German products with an extra 10% or whatever on top. It's a stupid argument. I'm sure those premium things like BMWs will stop selling to rich people, lol.
 

PJV3

Member
This is an article of faith for brexiters who pretend to have a veneer of thought behind their decision. We’ve seen it in this thread quite recently. It’s utterly delusional.

He thinks people will stop buying German products with an extra 10% or whatever on top. It's a stupid argument. I'm sure those premium things like BMWs will stop selling to rich people, lol.

Even if they lose a few sales it looks like they could gain a few banks, Germany is going to do better than the UK or the EU the way it is currently going. At least he accepts that May is doing a shit job even if he won't admit it's because our demands are a mess.
 

avaya

Member
Ha Ha Ha Ha seriously you really think Goldmans and Sachs is gonna pay taxes ..... ah that was a good joke.

Goldman have around 6k employees in London alone, their aggregate wages are c.GBP1bn, that is spent and taken in taxes. The firm also spends far more than this on other services, lawyers, accountants, restaurants, hotels, taxis, employee benefit programs etc etc. Meaning the value of Goldman Sachs alone is in the billions per year to the UK economy.

Moreover, the majority of their employees are actually just normal people. They are back and middle office support staff. The "bankers" and traders you see are actually a very small fraction of the headcount. Then again I doubt you bothered to think this through. After all Brexit is about leaving objective reality behind and fetishising right wing populist dogma.
 
Farage seems to be on another planet in another solar system, he thinks Merkel is the one under pressure because of German business to do a deal.

How can anyone with a functional head not see what is going on, absolutely barmy to pretend otherwise.

Wasn't there some article a while back demonstrating how, counter to every presumption made by the Brexiteers, German companies did in fact also think like EU citizens, valuing the existence and stability of the bloc (and its place in their bottom line) over just appeasing the British for business?
 
Farage seems to be on another planet in another solar system, he thinks Merkel is the one under pressure because of German business to do a deal.

How can anyone with a functional head not see what is going on, absolutely barmy to pretend otherwise.

Farage's legacy depends on a good deal, anything bar a return to the glory days of the empire means he'll become a lightning rod/pariah for even the "but the immigrants" crowd

Rumours are that May's offered £40 billion as a divorce payment, which is why the 27 have agreed to start discussing trade internally in prep for Decembers round of talks
 

CTLance

Member
Wasn't there some article a while back demonstrating how, counter to every presumption made by the Brexiteers, German companies did in fact also think like EU citizens, valuing the existence and stability of the bloc (and its place in their bottom line) over just appeasing the British for business?
around July this year said:
Dieter Kempf, president of the BDI, the federation of German industries, said: “Defending the single market, a key European project, must be the priority for the European Union. Europe must maintain the integrity of the single market and its four freedoms: goods, capital, services, and labour.
“It is the responsibility of the British government to limit the damage on both sides of the Channel. Over the coming months, it will be extraordinarily difficult to avert negative effects on British businesses in particular.”
And Ingo Kramer, president of the confederation of German employers’ associations (BDA), told the
Observer: “The single market is one of the major assets of the EU. Access to the single market requires the acceptance of all four single market freedoms.
“The UK will remain a very important partner for us, but we need a fair deal for both sides respecting this principle. The cohesion of the remaining 27 EU member states has highest priority.”(src)
BDI now has a specialised task force that draws up plans to counteract the fallout from a hard Brexit, which they think has a real chance of happening.
BDI Managing Director Joachim Lang said:
“To make it clear: Yes, German industry wants to keep a very close relationship with Britain. But have no doubt: We prioritise the further development of the EU,”
We know which side of the bread is buttered. It's rare, but it happens, evidently.
 
Goldman have around 6k employees in London alone, their aggregate wages are c.GBP1bn, that is spent and taken in taxes. The firm also spends far more than this on other services, lawyers, accountants, restaurants, hotels, taxis, employee benefit programs etc etc. Meaning the value of Goldman Sachs alone is in the billions per year to the UK economy.

Moreover, the majority of their employees are actually just normal people. They are back and middle office support staff. The "bankers" and traders you see are actually a very small fraction of the headcount. Then again I doubt you bothered to think this through. After all Brexit is about leaving objective reality behind and fetishising right wing populist dogma.

and in 2014 the cunts made £2 billion in profit in the UK and paid a whopping £26 million in tax. But no that isn't important, no I should be wailing and gnashing my teeth because Goldman Sachs are going to take away the breadcrumbs that they throw to us from their table and going to give them to the Germans instead.

Oh and I didn't realise I was being right wing for not crying over a bank that was one of the key actors in the 2008 crash that millions of people are still suffering from but hey all those taxi fares more than makes up for it.
 

avaya

Member
and in 2014 the cunts made £2 billion in profit in the UK and paid a whopping £26 million in tax. But no that isn't important, no I should be wailing and gnashing my teeth because Goldman Sachs are going to take away the breadcrumbs that they throw to us from their table and going to give them to the Germans instead.

Oh and I didn't realise I was being right wing for not crying over a bank that was one of the key actors in the 2008 crash that millions of people are still suffering from but hey all those taxi fares more than makes up for it.

Is this really the hill you want to die on? You do understand how maths works right? Say they didn't use their tax losses in the U.K. - and they paid full corporation tax - that's only 400m. The already contribute literally billions into the UK economy.

There's no need to cry over the banks and this isn't about the crash. You should realise for yourself that sacrificing a collective 100bn/year in contribution to the UK economy means the financial sector pays for literally the near entirety of the NHS budget. Good luck replacing that. Cutting off your nose to spite your face.
 

CCS

Banned
and in 2014 the cunts made £2 billion in profit in the UK and paid a whopping £26 million in tax. But no that isn't important, no I should be wailing and gnashing my teeth because Goldman Sachs are going to take away the breadcrumbs that they throw to us from their table and going to give them to the Germans instead.

Oh and I didn't realise I was being right wing for not crying over a bank that was one of the key actors in the 2008 crash that millions of people are still suffering from but hey all those taxi fares more than makes up for it.

The UK financial services industry is one of the very few world leading industries we have. You don't have to love the banks to appreciate that this is a Bad Thing.
 
and in 2014 the cunts made £2 billion in profit in the UK and paid a whopping £26 million in tax. But no that isn't important, no I should be wailing and gnashing my teeth because Goldman Sachs are going to take away the breadcrumbs that they throw to us from their table and going to give them to the Germans instead.

Oh and I didn't realise I was being right wing for not crying over a bank that was one of the key actors in the 2008 crash that millions of people are still suffering from but hey all those taxi fares more than makes up for it.

Now I'm confused. Nader posted:

The numbers in his post and yours don't add up at all.
Can you explain what's going on to someone with very limited understanding?
 

PJV3

Member
and in 2014 the cunts made £2 billion in profit in the UK and paid a whopping £26 million in tax. But no that isn't important, no I should be wailing and gnashing my teeth because Goldman Sachs are going to take away the breadcrumbs that they throw to us from their table and going to give them to the Germans instead.

Oh and I didn't realise I was being right wing for not crying over a bank that was one of the key actors in the 2008 crash that millions of people are still suffering from but hey all those taxi fares more than makes up for it.

I don't care about the banks going if we have some kind of plan to replace them, the city generates a lot of cash for the country even if they don't pay their share.

All of this should have been worked on before we even had a vote.
 
I don't care about the banks going if we have some kind of plan to replace them, the city generates a lot of cash for the country even if they don't pay their share.

All of this should have been worked on before we even had a vote.

There is no alternative to Banks leaving, at the last count they contributed 11.5% of UK tax receipts, London as a whole nearly 30%

Maybe we can raze Canary Wharf to the ground and turn it into warehouses for manufacturing
 

kmag

Member
There is no alternative to Banks leaving, at the last count they contributed 11.5% of UK tax receipts, London as a whole nearly 30%

Maybe we can raze Canary Wharf to the ground and turn it into warehouses for manufacturing

er, you're not going to have any manufacturing either. The EU is protectionist, but that's a good thing. All those countries like NZ and Australia that the brexiteers are desperate to ape, don't build shit
 
A deliberate piece of good news to give to the UK public by May despite the EU not really agreeing to do anything.

The EU will go away and ruminate on its priorities if we get past stage 1, and the entire process is delayed until December so May can get her house in order. Strengthen May slightly to help her actually deliver a deal rather than contributing to the British political forces that are trying to forcing the UK to crash out.

I still don't see how we get on to talks of trade with NI looming over everyone's heads.

But Brexiteers get something that looks like good news to sell to the public today, and it's all thanks to a bit of posturing by the EU. A bonkers situation.
 

PJV3

Member
A deliberate piece of good news to give to the UK public by May despite the EU not really agreeing to do anything.

The EU will go away and ruminate on its priorities if we get past stage 1, and the entire process is delayed until December so May can get her house in order. Strengthen May slightly to help her actually deliver a deal rather than contributing to the British political forces that are trying to forcing the UK to crash out.

I still don't see how we get on to talks of trade with NI looming over everyone's heads.

But Brexiteers get something that looks like good news to sell to the public today, and it's all thanks to a bit of posturing by the EU. A bonkers situation.

I don't know, the bill is clearly going to be going up by quite a bit, it's not a good look in my mind. And Macron makes the government look even worse over this no deal stuff, they really are fucking clowns if he's being honest.
 
A deliberate piece of good news to give to the UK public by May despite the EU not really agreeing to do anything.

The EU will go away and ruminate on its priorities if we get past stage 1, and the entire process is delayed until December so May can get her house in order. Strengthen May slightly to help her actually deliver a deal rather than contributing to the British political forces that are trying to forcing the UK to crash out.

I still don't see how we get on to talks of trade with NI looming over everyone's heads.

But Brexiteers get something that looks like good news to sell to the public today, and it's all thanks to a bit of posturing by the EU. A bonkers situation.

Well.

She flew out there and asked for some red meat to feed the rabid dogs.

They gave her a bit of left over steak.

For a group of people who think the best way to control an evil empire on your doorstep is to actually remove any and all of the significant influence you had over it, this bit of steak probably looks like a lifetime supply of marmite, toblerone and freddoes.
 

kmag

Member
A deliberate piece of good news to give to the UK public by May despite the EU not really agreeing to do anything.

The EU will go away and ruminate on its priorities if we get past stage 1, and the entire process is delayed until December so May can get her house in order. Strengthen May slightly to help her actually deliver a deal rather than contributing to the British political forces that are trying to forcing the UK to crash out.

I still don't see how we get on to talks of trade with NI looming over everyone's heads.

But Brexiteers get something that looks like good news to sell to the public today, and it's all thanks to a bit of posturing by the EU. A bonkers situation.

They'll agree to park NI until the second phase comforted by the fact both sides are committed to no hard border but have no real way to deliver it. . A lot of people are thinking the second phase will be a cakewalk, it'll be murderous on two fronts.

1. The UK will have explicitly start cutting the throats of certain sectors of the economy (all trade deals involve a bit of this)
2. The EU is going to have to walk a tightrope between maintaining the integrity of the single market and keeping preferential access to the UK market (they'll come down on the side of the single market ever time)

Frankly, there's more danger of a flounce out during the 2nd phase than the first.
 

Chinner

Banned
Macron on Brexit: "Theresa May's problem is that those who wanted Brexit never told the British people what the cost would be."

This is exactly what I'm pissed off about the most. Europe needs to push the narrative that MPs for the leave side (Tories and Labour equal) hid from leave voters how much income they stand to lose.
This is giving the right wing media ammo, who will make the kippers rage and out more stress on the country.
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member

keep

Member
Shall we do a sweepstake?

I'm saying she settles for the full 60bn but somehow convinces the EU to not make the whole figure public in one go but in incrementals as trade deals start and develop and the 'official' divorce bill will be 20bn.

She'll claim the numbers in her RENOWNED FLORENCE SPEECH were right all along to appease the Brexit cultists and stagger the bad press and the EU will get all the money they wanted anyway.
 

RetroDLC

Foundations of Burden
Shall we do a sweepstake?

I'm saying she settles for the full 60bn but somehow convinces the EU to not make the whole figure public in one go but in incrementals as trade deals start and develop and the 'official' divorce bill will be 20bn.

She'll claim the numbers in her RENOWNED FLORENCE SPEECH were right all along to appease the Brexit cultists and stagger the bad press and the EU will get all the money they wanted anyway.

Any payments beyond two years will be jumped upon by hardcore leavers.
 

keep

Member
Any payments beyond two years will be jumped upon by hardcore leavers.

She's already conceded in her RENOWNED FLORENCE SPEECH that payments will continue to happen for as long as the UK is in some way part of the EU, transition deal or not.

It's a bad pill to swallow, but it's much better than outright saying 'we'll be paying 3 times what I offered'.

I have ZERO sympathy for this woman but I don't know how she can sleep at night.
 
I think I'm going to quit this thread for a while. Brexit's a shitshow, it's only going to get worse, my time would be spent better reading a book or having a wank than torturing myself with every ludicrous detail.

Gentlemen, it's been a privilege.

Amazingly enough, your approach to Brexit is very similar to the approach now being taken by Rt.Hon. David Davis.
 

Blue Lou

Member
There's just been an advert on BBC One for a 'Tracey breaks the news'

Someone was doing an impression of Angela Merkel and says something along the lines of "I won't tell you what time it's on unless you pay us 20 billion euros"
 
There's just been an advert on BBC One for a 'Tracey breaks the news'

Someone was doing an impression of Angela Merkel and says something along the lines of "I won't tell you what time it's on unless you pay us 20 billion euros"

It's Tracey Ullman's latest show, she does a great Merkel. I quite liked her sketch show - and they've flipped it to go ultra-topical. Next Friday night if you actually want to watch.
 
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