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[Dice]

can't they be charged with battery/assault? that'd be enough to put them behind bars?

Battery, assault, harassment, stalking, psychological damages, (often) mugging, (sometimes, like here) torture, reckless endangerment, etc.

Seriously just stop brushing it off as kids stuff and look at the actions and what they do to the victim. Those little shits need to be locked away somewhere that they can be rehabilitated. Either their parents utterly failed to instill empathy in them or they are fucking sociopaths. They need to be kept separate from others until they will not harm them. Fuck their freedom if they are going to use it to harm and traumatize others and make them feel trapped in a horrible routine of abuse.

 

[Loofy]

Seriously just stop brushing it off as kids stuff and look at the actions and what they do to the victim. Those little shits need to be locked away somewhere that they can be rehabilitated. Either their parents utterly failed to instill empathy in them or they are fucking sociopaths. They need to be kept separate from others until they will not harm them. Fuck their freedom if they are going to use it to harm and traumatize others and make them feel trapped in a horrible routine of abuse.

Orrrrr..
They can be suspended, put in detention, or expelled. Like other 15 year olds.

 

[Orayn]

Orrrrr..
They can be suspended, put in detention, or expelled. Like other 15 year olds.

Do other 15 year olds get a free pass when they beat and torture their classmates despite clearly knowing that it was wrong to do so? I'm sorry, but "KIDS WILL BE KIDS" only goes so far.

 

[Dice]

Orrrrr..
They can be suspended, put in detention, or expelled. Like other 15 year olds.

One question to ask for these methods: Will be victim feel safe?

If the answer is no, you have to ask why and you have to find a better solution. I think you'll find in many cases they will not feel or be safe because the bully didn't "make a mistake" or "lose their cool" but rather is a deranged individual who will only be angered by the punishment and not learn a thing from it.

Is withholding education from someone who is demonstrating these traits really the best option? Shouldn't it be forced upon them all the more with restraint upon their violence so they stop tormenting others and get their shit together as a compassionate human being? Punishment is not always effective discipline, and discipline is what bullies need.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

I hate bullies. I love it when they get hurt. I love it when their actions are met with harsh retaliation, in the moment.

I am not comfortable with people being jailed for being indirectly responsible for a persons' self-inflicted death. They should be stopped and prosecuted for the bullying behavior, though, ideally before anyone kills themself.

edit: Oh, I should have read more carefully. It's South Korea. I'm much less surprised about a harsh sentence for bad social behavior, in that case. If that's how they want to roll, so be it. It would have been a much more surprising precedent in the U.S.

 

[Dresden]

I don't know what to say anymore. Seems like every subsequent generation just gets more and more radical, and even more misanthopic.

Where the hell are the teachers/authority figues/parents, hell, anybody!?

Same place they were in all the other generations past where bullies bullied dem bulliable kids.

 

[Valnen]

Orrrrr..
They can be suspended, put in detention, or expelled. Like other 15 year olds.

Orrrr....

They can be treated like the criminal scum they are.

 

[Orayn]

I hate bullies. I love it when they get hurt. I love it when their actions are met with harsh retaliation, in the moment.

I am not comfortable with people being jailed for being indirectly responsible for a persons' self-inflicted death. They should be stopped and prosecuted for the bullying behavior, though, ideally before anyone kills themself.

I disagree. If someone is in a fragile mental state, as a frequently bullied individual might be, I think you could hold these people directly responsible for what happened. It may have been self-inflicted, but it wasn't a choice made rationally or in the absence of outside influences.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

I disagree. If someone is in a fragile mental state, as a frequently bullied individual might be, I think you could hold these people directly responsible for what happened. It may have been self-inflicted, but it wasn't a choice made rationally or in the absence of outside influences.

There are no choices made in the absence of outside influences. And very few made rationally, either.

I can understand wanting to hold them responsible, but I'm just not that comfortable with the legal enforcement of intangible responsibility between individuals.

I might feel differently if I heard the full narrative of what they did to this person. Moral judgments are fickle like that.

 

[Orayn]

There are no choices made in the absence of outside influences. And very few made rationally, either.

I can understand wanting to hold them responsible, but I'm just not that comfortable with the legal enforcement of intangible responsibility between individuals.

I might feel differently if I heard the full narrative of what they did to this person. Moral judgments are fickle like that.

Fair enough. I feel that this case is clear enough that they should be held accountable for something beyond the acts of aggression themselves, but you make a good point about such cases being very hard to support with hard evidence.

 

[Skel1ingt0n]

I was one of the most popular kids I knew in elementary school and early middle school. My dad was in the military, and no matter how much I bounced around, I quickly made friends and settled in. I came back to my "hometown" in the middle of seventh grade year. There were about two months left, and so I had to start up in a new school as the "new kid."

Instantly, everyone started picking on me. It was absolutely awful. I later learned that a particular bully had started a rumor that "the new kid likes to touch boys' butts for fun." During gym nobody would talk to me, during class nobody would work with me, in the hallways nobody would walk with me, and at lunch nobody would offer a table for me to sit at. Day in, day out, people called me names, laughed behind my back, etc. I cried night after night after night - often unable to sleep at all - for the rest of the year. All summer long, I absolutely dreaded going back. But as 8th grade started, I took action, wouldn't have any of that, and slowly worked up the ranks. A few weeks in, everything was fine. And by high school, I had become plenty popular, had great friends, was in a variety of clubs, and eventually got my revenge on those fucking bullies (but that's another story).

While I was never physically abused, I'd argue verbal/emotional abuse can be just as damaging.

But even still, even had I been pushed far enough to kill myself, I still don't think it would be fair for those bullies to get jail time. They didn't do anything against the law. They did not force my hand. Sure, they're indirectly responsible. But ultimately, I would have decided to do the damage to myself. I mean... how much of what I was feeling could be empirically measured and systematically linked to what they were doing. I think it's impossible to gauge how responsible one person is for another person's actions without very exact, and entirely truthful accounts. And I doubt we got them in this case.

It's hard. Especially for the parents of the now-deceased child. I feel bad for them. But as much as I *want* those two bullies to be in jail, I don't feel like, legally, they should be.




Just my two cents.

 

[Derwind]

On one hand, 3 years is a pretty long time & price to pay for 15 year old's acting like the worlds biggest assholes and I have serious doubts that this'll help them at the end of the day...

On the other hand, they made this kids life hell and pushed him to take his own life.... they physically assaulted, humiliated and terrorized the kid...

It is what it is, hope they come out for the better on the other side...

These bullies sound like a kid I knew, he used to make my life shit in middle school... Grade 9 rolls around, I knock him out one day when he tries his games on me in high school... never looked me in the eye after that the rest of my high school career... felt good...

 

[Orayn]

I was one of the most popular kids I knew in elementary school and early middle school. My dad was in the military, and no matter how much I bounced around, I quickly made friends and settled in. I came back to my "hometown" in the middle of seventh grade year. There were about two months left, and so I had to start up in a new school as the "new kid."

Instantly, everyone started picking on me. It was absolutely awful. I later learned that a particular bully had started a rumor that "the new kid likes to touch boys' butts for fun." During gym nobody would talk to me, during class nobody would work with me, in the hallways nobody would walk with me, and at lunch nobody would offer a table for me to sit at. Day in, day out, people called me names, laughed behind my back, etc. I cried night after night after night - often unable to sleep at all - for the rest of the year. All summer long, I absolutely dreaded going back. But as 8th grade started, I took action, wouldn't have any of that, and slowly worked up the ranks. A few weeks in, everything was fine. And by high school, I had become plenty popular, had great friends, was in a variety of clubs, and eventually got my revenge on those fucking bullies (but that's another story).

While I was never physically abused, I'd argue verbal/emotional abuse can be just as damaging.

But even still, even had I been pushed far enough to kill myself, I still don't think it would be fair for those bullies to get jail time. They didn't do anything against the law. They did not force my hand. Sure, they're indirectly responsible. But ultimately, I would have decided to do the damage to myself. I mean... how much of what I was feeling could be empirically measured and systematically linked to what they were doing. I think it's impossible to gauge how responsible one person is for another person's actions without very exact, and entirely truthful accounts. And I doubt we got them in this case.

It's hard. Especially for the parents of the now-deceased child. I feel bad for them. But as much as I *want* those two bullies to be in jail, I don't feel like, legally, they should be.




Just my two cents.

I kind of get what you're trying to say, but it's wrapped in a kind of victim-blaming mentality that makes me immensely uncomfortable. Furthermore...

"The pair took turns beating their classmate, as well as forcing his head into a sink of water and making him eat food from the ground."

"The pair took turns beating their classmate, as well as forcing his head into a sink of water and making him eat food from the ground."

"The pair took turns beating their classmate, as well as forcing his head into a sink of water and making him eat food from the ground."

 

[rdrr gnr]

There are no choices made in the absence of outside influences. And very few made rationally, either.

I can understand wanting to hold them responsible, but I'm just not that comfortable with the legal enforcement of intangible responsibility between individuals.

I might feel differently if I heard the full narrative of what they did to this person. Moral judgments are fickle like that.

Well said. Judging these events on a case-by-case basis is probably the most morally and legally sound approach available. I would be against blanket legislation that does not allow for these much needed nuances to be considered.

 

[subversus]

I consider not putting my future kid into school at all. I know two kids who graduated from a school by studying with private tutors and they both showed superior intelligence and superior social skills comparing to their peers. They think and they don't fear anybody. I see no benefit in going to school.

 

[Skel1ingt0n]

I kind of get what you're trying to say, but it's wrapped in a kind of victim-blaming mentality that makes me immensely uncomfortable. Furthermore...

Actually, it's this particular series of events (sink/food from floor) that makes me more comfortable with the bullies getting jailtime. I suppose I just didn't like how people were saying this "sets a precedent" like it can just be a blanket for all bullying cases. In my opinion, bullying = kids being kids.

However, I would agree that in VERY rare cases, it does go to far. This particular case teeters pretty darn close to that limit.

 

[Loofy]

I disagree. If someone is in a fragile mental state, as a frequently bullied individual might be, I think you could hold these people directly responsible for what happened. It may have been self-inflicted, but it wasn't a choice made rationally or in the absence of outside influences.

And thats basically the differentiating factor here.
Its only a crime when someone gets their feelings hurt.
I dont think thats a very good law though...

 

[Valnen]

They didn't do anything against the law.

Harassment is against the law.

I dont think thats a very good law though...

The fact that people don't think harassment being illegal is a good law shows what a bad state our society is in.

 

[Orayn]

And thats basically the differentiating factor here.
Its only a crime when someone gets their feelings hurt.
I dont think thats a very good law though...

Are you seriously equating someone being driven to suicide because their classmates tormented them to hurt feelings? Get bent.

 

[Loofy]

Harassment is against the law.

The fact that people don't think harassment being illegal is a good law shows what a bad state our society is in.

Keep up with the thread will ya. We're talking about who should get the blame for 'death.'

 

[Dice]

While I was never physically abused, I'd argue verbal/emotional abuse can be just as damaging.

But even still, even had I been pushed far enough to kill myself, I still don't think it would be fair for those bullies to get jail time. They didn't do anything against the law. They did not force my hand. Sure, they're indirectly responsible. But ultimately, I would have decided to do the damage to myself. I mean... how much of what I was feeling could be empirically measured and systematically linked to what they were doing. I think it's impossible to gauge how responsible one person is for another person's actions

This is the difficult part. However, as times goes on and science advances, we are discovering more and more about the way the mind responds to trauma of different sorts. It is not always the same in every case, but there are some ways that a person could be pushed beyond mental stability and capacity to respond rationally and for the best. You pulled through and found your opportunities; this kid found his opportunity off a rooftop.

As we come to greater understanding of the magnitude of consequences that different abusive actions can have, we need to reevaluate our priorities and methods of how we view, prevent, and respond to such actions. Because it is social and psychological in nature for all parties, the focus needs to be on solving and correcting the entire situation from the angle of each party, not a simplistic approach of punishment for the crime like we do with something such as vandalism.

 

[scar tissue]

Are some of you guys for real? This is acceptable behavior for kids and they should just be detained?
Well guess what, I was a kid too. I was bullied quite frequently myself, and I bullied others in one or two instances to feel better about myself (which I'm obviously not very proud of nowadays). None of us were nice kids.

But somehow, I (and everyone else at my school) still managed not to push anyone's head into a sink or making him eat off the floor. Amazing.

 

[Derwind]

The fact that people don't think harassment being illegal is a good law shows what a bad state our society is in.

I imagine if it was renamed "Repetitive Emotional & Psychological Assault" it might perk up some ears... As it stands some people don't take the word harassment seriously...

 

[Orayn]

I imagine if it was renamed "Repetitive Emotional & Psychological Assault" it might perk up some ears... As it stands some people don't take the word harassment seriously...

You'd still have stupid assholes whose understanding of such matters amounts to, "Stick and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

 

[The Faceless Master]

only 3 years? i mean, the physical assault, torture and i don't even know what making someone eat food off the ground counts as...

 

[tubster68]

"Devastated his spirit". Oh hell naw not his spirit!!

 

[Loofy]

Are you seriously equating someone being driven to suicide because their classmates tormented them to hurt feelings? Get bent.

Probably not the best words but the point still stands. If this kid was harassed to the same extent but didnt commit suicide would people still call for them to be put to prison?
If someone was violently assaulted, why the heck would it matter what mental state the victim is in. The crime is in the act itself.

 

[Orayn]

Probably not the best words but the point still stands. If this kid was harassed to the same extent but didnt commit suicide would people still call for them to be put to prison?
If someone was violently assaulted, why the heck would it matter what mental state the victim is in. The crime is in the act itself.

And they should be punished for the assault. However, saying that they shouldn't be charged with anything more assumes that the victim's decision to commit suicide was made in some sort of vacuum wherein he wasn't mentally or emotionally affected by bullying. That's not the case, but I'd love to see you argue otherwise.

 

[Skel1ingt0n]

This is the difficult part. However, as times goes on and science advances, we are discovering more and more about the way the mind responds to trauma of different sorts. It is not always the same in every case, but there are some ways that a person could be pushed beyond mental stability and capacity to respond rationally and for the best. You pulled through and found your opportunities; this kid found his opportunity off a rooftop.

As we come to greater understanding of the magnitude of consequences that different abusive actions can have, we need to reevaluate our priorities and methods of how we view, prevent, and respond to such actions. Because it is social and psychological in nature for all parties, the focus needs to be on solving and correcting the entire situation from the angle of each party, not a simplistic approach of punishment for the crime like we do with something such as vandalism.

I agree with you points, and they're well said, too. I recognize that I respond differently to bad drivers, or the DMV, or being startled, or a million other things differently than others might; and so it's only fair to assume that another kid might respond to being bullied differently than I did.

That said, as I work through this conversation in my head, I'm beginning to think I'm more uncomfortable with the fact it seems the punishment doesn't match the crime. From my perspective, these bullies went about two steps too far. Name calling, some humiliation, and a couple pushes and shoves are the daily affairs of middle school. It sucks. But it's life. That said, having someone eat food off the ground for public humiliation is a lot worse than those things. Like I said, at least a good two steps further than what ANYONE should be okay with. But I feel like the punishment is about ten steps too far. Skip right over discipline from a teacher, a principal, suspension, expulsion, or heck, even a night in jail or a 30 day sentence. But three years? In prison? Seems very excessive to me. An example of disregarding a fair punishment by seeing what the intentions of the bullies were, and instead going for that coveted "example/precedent" instead.




Also, it's WAY past my bedtime, so my apologies if I'm not coming across very clear. I know my writing is not quite up to par this evening ;p

 

[stephen08]

Bullying is a despicable practice. I was fortunate enough to never have to deal with it a lot but hearing stories like this saddens me. In a case like this jail time is justified in my opinion. This falls pretty squarely under physical assault.

For more non-violent incidents a precedent should be set to force the bullies to switch schools/classes if the problem is persistent. Outside of school it should be treated as harassment.

 

[zon]

You guys are talking about kids. I know people that were complete assholes in school. Meet them 10 years later and surprise surprise.. they act like adults.
I remember in my elementary school everyone was basically a bully. There was one girl that everyone picked on and we actually came up with ways to humiliate her as a class. Its crazy how well we all worked together.. Im pretty sure we werent all sociopaths though.

Oh gee, a former bully defending bullies.

WHAT A SURPRISE

What you did was despicable but you're too much of a coward to admit it to yourself, so now you're sitting there defending two boys who drove another to suicide through repeated abuse/torture. Get a fucking grip.

 

[Dice]

Putting his head in the sink is what stands out to me the most. Do you know much about water torture? It's horrible stuff. I really doubt they just gave his head a dip to make his face wet. Holding someone underwater can activate very real "death sequence" kind of responses in the body and cause PTSD, especially if they gave him a short break and shoved him back in. Combining this stuff with physical beating is sure to push it into certified torture.

 

[Orayn]

Oh gee, a former bully defending bullies.

WHAT A SURPRISE

What you did was despicable but you're too much of a coward to admit it to yourself, so now you're sitting there defending two boys who drove another to suicide through repeated abuse/torture. Get a fucking grip.

Naw man, all they did was commit assault. Stuff that happens to people can never affect them in any way EVER.

 

[Skel1ingt0n]

I'll add, though:

Fucking shame on the parents/teachers/administrators in this situation. Considering the prosecutors were able to successfully get these bullies jailtime, it is reasonable to assume there was documented history of the bullying. I mean, the very first time it's brought to an adult's attention that some kids are forcing another kid to EAT FOOD OFF THE GROUND, that adult has a fucking responsibility to step in and fix the problem. Certainly, things aren't going to fix themselves overnight. But this seems like it could have been prevented, even after the bullies had started the attacks.

EDIT: ALSO... gonna add, just for the sake of a story...

Back in 5th grade, toward the end of the year, we were given a "bonus" 30 minute recess to sign each other's yearbooks. I was the student council vice president, in a variety of clubs, and on the school paper, and of course had lots of my peers coming to sign my book and me theirs. As my pages filled up, I realized a girl that was often bullied, and had very few friends, was off in the corner sitting by herself. She was just flipping through the pages with her head down.

So, while a group of my friends were talking to me and exchanging notes, I walked over to her, and asked her very politiely if she would please sign my book. She hesitated for a second, but probably realized I had never been mean to her in the past, and she agreed. I took her book, and while everyone could see what I was writing, I remember very vividly writing "I've loved having you in my class. I'm sorry we didn't hang out more often. I hope you have a wonderful summer. - Your friend, Matthew."

When she got her yearbook back, I instantly saw her face light up. And of course, then everyone else offered to sign her book, too.

To this day, I'm fairly certain I changed that girl's life for the better. And I'm very proud of my younger self for not ignoring her.

 

[Derwind]

ALSO... gonna add, just for the sake of a story...

Back in 5th grade, toward the end of the year, we were given a "bonus" 30 minute recess to sign each other's yearbooks. I was the student council vice president, in a variety of clubs, and on the school paper, and of course had lots of my peers coming to sign my book and me theirs. As my pages filled up, I realized a girl that was often bullied, and had very few friends, was off in the corner sitting by herself. She was just flipping through the pages with her head down.

So, while a group of my friends were talking to me and exchanging notes, I walked over to her, and asked her very politiely if she would please sign my book. She hesitated for a second, but probably realized I had never been mean to her in the past, and she agreed. I took her book, and while everyone could see what I was writing, I remember very vividly writing "I've loved having you in my class. I'm sorry we didn't hang out more often. I hope you have a wonderful summer. - Your friend, Matthew."

When she got her yearbook back, I instantly saw her face light up. And of course, then everyone else offered to sign her book, too.

To this day, I'm fairly certain I changed that girl's life for the better. And I'm very proud of my younger self for not ignoring her.

Wow... that's actually pretty darn nice... well done!

 

[LordCanti]

"Devastated his spirit". Oh hell naw not his spirit!!

 

[Ubersnug]

All these people just dismissing Bullying as 'Kids will be Kids' is bullshit.

There is a distinct difference between a group of kids slagging each other off and a group of kids beating the hell and wearing another kid down mentally and emotionally.

Admittedly, most kids won't realise when they have crossed a line and really don't mean some of the things they say. However, when they have an audience and when peer pressure is an issue, any sort of 'no-go-zone' that may exist will probably be flung to the wind just to get a reaction from the target and the applause of their audience.

In today's world, kids do need to toughen up a hell of a lot quicker than they should do. But, at the same time, it should be drummed into them, via parents and teachers, that a bit of tolerance and care of others will go a hell of a long way to making them a better person.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Probably not the best words but the point still stands. If this kid was harassed to the same extent but didnt commit suicide would people still call for them to be put to prison?
If someone was violently assaulted, why the heck would it matter what mental state the victim is in. The crime is in the act itself.

*scratches head*

But he did commit suicide, so...? The sternness of this decision is precisely because he victim was committing suicide, so I am not sure what your point is....?

For the record, I am happy about this decision. Bullying is incredibly cruel, and some scars because of it can be ingrained in a person for forever.

 

[AzureNightmare]

suicide incited by bullying should AT LEAST count as involuntary manslaughter, it not second degree murder. You people know how I feel about this shit so don't even try to play it down.

 

[Finaika]

EDIT: ALSO... gonna add, just for the sake of a story...

Back in 5th grade, toward the end of the year, we were given a "bonus" 30 minute recess to sign each other's yearbooks. I was the student council vice president, in a variety of clubs, and on the school paper, and of course had lots of my peers coming to sign my book and me theirs. As my pages filled up, I realized a girl that was often bullied, and had very few friends, was off in the corner sitting by herself. She was just flipping through the pages with her head down.

So, while a group of my friends were talking to me and exchanging notes, I walked over to her, and asked her very politiely if she would please sign my book. She hesitated for a second, but probably realized I had never been mean to her in the past, and she agreed. I took her book, and while everyone could see what I was writing, I remember very vividly writing "I've loved having you in my class. I'm sorry we didn't hang out more often. I hope you have a wonderful summer. - Your friend, Matthew."

When she got her yearbook back, I instantly saw her face light up. And of course, then everyone else offered to sign her book, too.

To this day, I'm fairly certain I changed that girl's life for the better. And I'm very proud of my younger self for not ignoring her.

Bless your kind heart.

 

[Replicant]

There should be a consequence if you hurt someone enough be it physically or mentally on purpose. A person who put another human being through a life of fear/torture/bullying should not get away scott-free. I won't say that they should immediately go to jail but there should be a punishment to discourage this kind of behavior. Enough of this "Kids will be kids" BS. If I and many others went through 18 years of our childhood + teenage life without bullying anyone, why should not any other person be held to the same standard?

 

[jgminto]

I feel there should be some sort of mandatory education system for serious cases of bullying. Not so much a prison but an education centre where kids charged with bullying are taught about what they have done alongside regular schooling for a certain period of time, depending on the severity of the case. It would also remove them from bad influences like abusive parents.

 

[AzureNightmare]

There's nothing worse than parents that encourage and even cheerlead bullying. Knowingly or unknowingly.

 

[lazybones18]

Their jail sentence....should be longer

 

[Boken]

A lot of times these threads an turn into a shit storm without any real questions being asked, so here's the first:

Whats the difference between this instance of bullied suicide (being physically hurt) and cases of years of emotional mental damage from being broken down by a group of classmates, GAF? Should they be punished all the same if the same outcome is reached?

Easier to establish a causal link for the first case.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

Happened in Korea? Huh...let them do something about the bullying in their mandatory military service too...man...the stories....

Quite a lot of suicides there too.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

there's a defense for this... jesus buddha of zeus

 

[cameron]

The "Kids will be kids" mentality is a huge insult to the majority of teenagers that aren't bullies/sociopaths.

I'm all for jail time + rehab. It may even serve as a deterrent, like adult sociopaths who avoid indulging in douchebag behaviour only due to the fear of criminal charges.

 

[cntr]

Having gone through some pretty nasty times of my own back as a kid, can't say I really sympathize with the bullies.

 

[akira28]

I'd say forced therapy, jailtime for bullying in general is a little bit much. Bullies should go on probation with possibility for jail time, and forced therapy. But since the kid commuted suicide, I'm not entirely against this form of consequences for his tormentors.