Majority of people in here are assuming that the sexual assault is an honor code violation and there is punishment for it. The school investigates said claims and find violations (alcohol consumption, ect). There is debate whether or not violations should be overlooked under said investigation but this is nothing new for society. If under a criminal investigation and illegal activity is found , said victim can still be charged for illicit activities. The only difference in this case is the "illegal activity" is a violation of the honor code. A difference? absolutely.. but again, this scenario is not new.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
BYU investigating rape victims for violating "honor code"
- Thread starter johnsmith
- Start date
- Status
Majority of people in here are assuming that the sexual assault is an honor code violation and there is punishment for it. The school investigates said claims and find violations (alcohol consumption, ect). There is debate whether or not violations should be overlooked under said investigation but this is nothing new for society. If under a criminal investigation and illegal activity is found , said victim can still be charged for illicit activities. The only difference in this case is the "illegal activity" is a violation of the honor code. A difference? absolutely.. but again, this scenario is not new.
GoldenEye 007
Member
And the cop slipping the school a police report, them refusing to back down on their own investigation, potentially compromising the criminal case? All for them to look into if she was drinking or something? Damn the alleged rape.
No, actually looking at the thread it looks like the majority of people are reacting to how they feel the honor code at BYU to be disgusting and backward, and enforcing it would lead to situations like this, which makes the university look bad and makes the people running it look like fuckheads. Are you perhaps reading a different thread somewhere?
radios shipping overview
Member
The problem is in how the Honor Code office has been involved immediately when an assault is reported with the Title IX office. BYU has recognized and acknowledged that this is a problem, if only in their oblique and mealy-mouthed language.
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3792172-155/byu-says-it-will-review-honor
Frozenprince
Banned
I mean I don't need to even know specifics of honor codes or legality to know it's a morally reprehensible thing to do to a woman who just had their life likely irrevocably altered for the worse by victimizing and traumatizing them again because they may have made some form of ethical misconduct against your "code".
Maybe that's just me.
Maybe that's just me.
If you can't see that comparing a situation to something like Dubai , or being stoned to death is not a a comparison in how victims of sexual assault are treated especially related to religious issues like chastity.. then sorry, i can't help you.
The cop should be prosecuted for any wrongdoing and the supposed compromising investigation is said to be a Title IX investigation, not an honor code one. If that is wrong then yes, it should be under scrutiny.
Yeah, this seems to be the root of the problem. There's no reason the honor code people should've received a copy of the report. I mean, let's be real here. No matter how much the university cares about drinking and premarital sex, that should absolutely not have any kind of priority over the actual criminal investigation. And I'd hope people who care this much about morality would think twice about revictimizing victims of rape and sexual assault.
Yes, since they're not actually saying that her being raped is a violation of the honor code, they're better than the UAE. But that's, uh. Not really a high bar.
I wonder how lopsided the investigation of female sexual activity is vs. male.
I had a lot of Mormon friends growing up and I got the impression the guys typically got off easy in general; I didn't know any female Mormons (or know of them at least) to compare.
Oddly enough I have had the same experience as an adult only ever meeting male Mormons. All of them had the same sort of laid back content attitude.
I had a lot of Mormon friends growing up and I got the impression the guys typically got off easy in general; I didn't know any female Mormons (or know of them at least) to compare.
Oddly enough I have had the same experience as an adult only ever meeting male Mormons. All of them had the same sort of laid back content attitude.
charlequin
Banned
It's not new, it's just abhorrent garbage. Who gives a shit if it's new? The relevant question is whether there is any moral legitimacy whatsoever to the BYU administration's actions, which there is not.
From the other article
Whether or not violations should be overlooked at any point, is absolutely a moral ambiguity.
The Police also regularly offer up immunity for crime victims who committed rather petty crimes; I recently read about a string of roberies of escorts and the local PD worked with escorts under conditions of immunity and urged them to come forward.
I'm sure plenty of underage drinking females get raped and have no trouble reporting these rapes without getting a minor in position too; I was a minor who had the shit kicked out of them drunk and the police didn't say a word to me about my obvious intoxication.
And I don't think anyone is confused about this either.
What about we take this out of BYU and "honor codes." Say an adult women on a business trip visits a strip club. After leaving she is sexually assaulted and robbed. Help arrives, cops are called and a report is made. Her employer finds about the strip club, finds her breach of contract and terminates her employment. These type of situations happen and are never as simple as full immunity for the victim.
The improprieties of the honor code investigation and conflicting with the actual criminal investigation are not acceptable. That absolutely should be fixed.
Personally I think it is only ambiguous to those who lack morality.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I've edited the OP to make clear that they're being investigated for the events leading up to the assault, and not to imply that the assault itself was counted as a sex act that was against the honor code.
Yeah it's a long standing tradition in law enforcement to overlook petty crime to encourage victims or witnesses of major crimes to come forward.
The precedent set by law enforcement is the exact opposite of what is being called out here as some "gotcha" to the people who find this abhorant.
Say a coworker on the trip told HR about the strip club. Or the assault was captured on video and went viral on social media. Or the employee used a company card to pay for drinks at the strip club.
What an incredibly bizarre example.
If a company did that they'd likely be sued and/or publicly shamed to hell and back.
The using of a company card part would have nothing to do with the crime report; you just aren't making much sense.
I think that was the point of the analogy. That it would be incredibly shitty for the company to fire the victim.
^ It indeed would be shitty. But who here doesn't think many companies would do exactly that?
Nothing stopping us and society from shaming BYU and their honor code. Which they entirely deserve.
Cool, good adjustment IMO. I don't really have anything to add here i'll probably see myself out of this thread.
charlequin
Banned
There's no real ambiguity here, there's just people who have implemented a monstrously petty indignity trying to justify it with legalisms. The idea that there's some serious ethical question worth pondering here is laughable.
So I'm a graduate of BYU-Idaho and I have to say that, even as a practicing, believing Mormon, I find the Honor Code utterly abhorrent. It's a barbaric code of rules that seem simple and ordinary but have built up damn near pharisaic obscurity around them. When I was at school people swore up and down that the Honor Code said that members of the opposite sex could not use your apartments' restrooms. Not only did I never see this, but even if it was a real thing it's ridiculous and dumb.
It's hard to put into words what attending BYU was like. On the one hand I had a good time in smaller classes and was able to establish some facets of my identity as a Mormon in a safer environment. On the other hand I felt like certain policies the Idaho campus had were absurdly standoffish and I had a certain religious course that I completely and utterly loathed. As in never in all my years had I come closer to feeling my faith shaken than I did in that hate-filled curriculum.
So as much as I dislike religion bashing threads and feel that GAF has a penchant for being nothing if not bloodthirsty for them, I have to say: I am not, as a graduate and Church member, even the slightest bit surprised by this. The Honor Code is well beyond the simple school rulebook people want you to think it is and far from the Word of God its most die-hard adherents would have you believe it to be.
It's just a really, really shitty thing that needs revamped and won't be.
EDIT: I must sound really, really bitter in this post, haha. I'm just not surprised cuz the Honor Code was never a good thing the whole time I went to school and I got super super sick of hearing 'but u signed it'.
It's hard to put into words what attending BYU was like. On the one hand I had a good time in smaller classes and was able to establish some facets of my identity as a Mormon in a safer environment. On the other hand I felt like certain policies the Idaho campus had were absurdly standoffish and I had a certain religious course that I completely and utterly loathed. As in never in all my years had I come closer to feeling my faith shaken than I did in that hate-filled curriculum.
So as much as I dislike religion bashing threads and feel that GAF has a penchant for being nothing if not bloodthirsty for them, I have to say: I am not, as a graduate and Church member, even the slightest bit surprised by this. The Honor Code is well beyond the simple school rulebook people want you to think it is and far from the Word of God its most die-hard adherents would have you believe it to be.
It's just a really, really shitty thing that needs revamped and won't be.
EDIT: I must sound really, really bitter in this post, haha. I'm just not surprised cuz the Honor Code was never a good thing the whole time I went to school and I got super super sick of hearing 'but u signed it'.
There's nothing stopping a cop from giving a rape victim a jay walking ticket while running away from their rapist a cross a street; but they shouldn't and probably wouldn't.
What exactly is your point?
People think his is shitty and shouldn't be done; I don't see anyone saying anything else.
That's the cool thing about ethics and morality, as long as they don't violate established laws, its all ambiguous.
I live in Utah and i still think people in Provo are weird.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
3 different cases here
- coworker tells HR would be internal and a non issue as not in the public eye
- absolutely impossible to fire her because of a video on her assault, the bad press alone and a potential lawsuit
- misappropriating company funds would be just another internal issue.
meh i guess i could have said something about societal norms establishing morality but you get the idea.
I doubt the honor code investigation is a public spectacle either. I'm not a BYU student so I have no idea, however.
Jezebel did a big piece, but this immediately popped out for me.
http://jezebel.com/theyre-emboldening-my-rapist-sexual-assault-victims-at-1771222098
In addition, both MacDonald and Barney allege that they were never offered counseling or other services, and were shut out of their own Honor Code investigations as well. MacDonald also alleges that BYU Title IX Coordinator Sarah Westerberg outright doubted her sexual assault complaint and questioned whether or not Title IX complaints were generally manufactured by women with moral regrets.
Also this:
Westerberg said, at a campus rape awareness event earlier this month, that she would not apologize for forwarding victim reports to the Honor Code; she simultaneously is said to have acknowledged that doing so might have a chilling effect on reporting.
...
Westerberg, MacDonald alleges, outright doubted me, and told the computer science major that in her opinion, almost all BYU rape and sexual assault reports are fake; that theyre put out by girls who feel moral regret after having consensual sex and then decide that to escape that regret by calling it rape.
She continued, I dont believe that happens, but Westerberg viewed all reports as being false and incorrect. Very much like victims are just trying to ruin the lives of these good, upstanding, young returned missionaries.
http://jezebel.com/theyre-emboldening-my-rapist-sexual-assault-victims-at-1771222098
In addition, both MacDonald and Barney allege that they were never offered counseling or other services, and were shut out of their own Honor Code investigations as well. MacDonald also alleges that BYU Title IX Coordinator Sarah Westerberg outright doubted her sexual assault complaint and questioned whether or not Title IX complaints were generally manufactured by women with moral regrets.
Also this:
Westerberg said, at a campus rape awareness event earlier this month, that she would not apologize for forwarding victim reports to the Honor Code; she simultaneously is said to have acknowledged that doing so might have a chilling effect on reporting.
...
Westerberg, MacDonald alleges, outright doubted me, and told the computer science major that in her opinion, almost all BYU rape and sexual assault reports are fake; that theyre put out by girls who feel moral regret after having consensual sex and then decide that to escape that regret by calling it rape.
She continued, I dont believe that happens, but Westerberg viewed all reports as being false and incorrect. Very much like victims are just trying to ruin the lives of these good, upstanding, young returned missionaries.
Laws don't erase moral or ethical ambiguity either, but there continues to be little point to these asides.
Lots of pointless technicality discussion going on here that completely ignores why petty offenses should be ignored to not discourage victims from coming forward.
The school has a greater moral responsibility to not discourage rape reporting then they do to enforce their honor code. Yes that's an opinion but one with pretty sound established reasoning.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
I think BYU treats drinking the way the mainstream might treat smoking meth. But they're being too cock handed about it to make me think that their actions are motivated by concern for the victim.
radios shipping overview
Member
Jesus Christ, the fuckery is too thick.
I didn't go to BYU, but my partner did and I knew other people who went around that time. The Honor Code always seemed like it was treated as a Stasi-esque justification for snitching on your fellow students, especially if you happened to feel you were more high & mighty and to have more of the spirit than they did. This does nothing to dispel that idea.
DrGonzo615
Banned
So if someone is sexually assaulted while drinking at a party then the school will investigate the drinking as a "honor code violation"?
What the fuck?
What the fuck?
Yes. While it sounds fucked up, it's the reality of what this separate investigation is about. There's some moral gray area on doing so but I have to see both sides to understand. The officer handing over info in that manner is something that should be looked into on a legal basis.
- Status