Always-honest
Banned
Yes, i think they should be able to make a great game without these weird forced gameplay mechanics as you described.
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Can a Metroid game be realistic without ruining the design?
- Thread starter nkarafo
- Start date
3rdDimension
Member
Movies don't need to ground everything in realism in order to be enjoyable. Just look at the success of the Avengers movie.
When we start trying to ground videogames in our realism, it just takes away from what makes games great in the first place.
When we start trying to ground videogames in our realism, it just takes away from what makes games great in the first place.
Snowden's Secret
Banned
I'm with you up to a point. Like someone mentioned Avengers above, your suspension of disbelief will only carrier you so far. I got pulled out of Avengers when Hawkeye shot a USB drive into a USB port via arrow. I don't know why this bothered me in a movie starring a guy in a mech, a monster, a god, and a time traveler, but it did.
So yes, there's a point to be made that just because Metroid is fantasy doesn't mean everything's fair game. I just don't feel they've crossed that threshold or even come close, especially with regards to gameplay elements.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
You know what's not realistic? Expecting another Metroid game
Right in the feels...
Spring-Loaded
Member
No.
Fantasy isn't inherently nonsensical and unbelievable. There is nothing bad about everything making sense within the confines of a game's universe and the desired gameplay isn't sacrificed. This thread is asking how thay could be accomplished, not "how much can yoube complain about the notion of realism in games?"
NinjamicWZ
Banned
Gameplay isn't forced in games where the thematic conceptualization is derived from and coalesces with the gameplay elements.
ie: you make a block matching puzzle game... what you put on the blocks and around the border is the pallet swapping and sampling portion of development. The inception of an original game mechanic or gameplay archetype begins with playing with your own tech and getting ideas as you move along, that may or may not lead back to the inception where things might now require some tweaking. Letting theme fully dominate and encroach on the gameplay development, ultimately results in the original gameplay concepts and play mechanics being abandoned, leaving behind a game that never was and an idea that never found it's identity.
People who say... start with a cool drawing and a grand scope of vision that they want to be "a game" or "in" one, and not at the fundamental handling of a game, are really just reskinning and modding already established archetypes.
This is not 100%, because all elements coalescing together as development grows is essential and inspiring, but I believe that experimenting with gameplay for hours on end just to get some mechanics ideas working is the true muse of game design.
Green Mamba
Member
Then what is there to be done? Pretty much all of the goofy parts of a Metroid game are rationalized in the Prime games' scan logs; Morph Ball tunnels are maintenance tunnels or air vents, doors are shot because they have shielding on them to prevent animals getting places, etc.
The only other option to me sounds like removing Morph Ball tunnels or Missile doors or whatever in places where they thematically don't fit, and that does negatively impact gameplay in order to force a narrative, the exact opposite of what Metroid is built to accomplish.
nkarafo
Member
Is there an explanation for the spider ball rails or the morphball doors in the space pirate base? Its been a long time and i don't remember these logs and i'm sure i didn't read them all anyway.
I haven't played the Metroid games, but I'll use Zelda as a similar example. The contrivance of limiting weapons or suits in Metroid is akin, I think, to the item progression in Zelda--get item, use item to beat dungeon/boss, rinse, repeat. To me, this seems to be a very game-y design to give the game a sense of progression or structure. However, if someone were to ask me why I enjoy Zelda games, this wouldn't even come up. In fact, I'd rather they scrap it. I assume this is similar (for at least some people) in Metroid.
On the other hand, puzzles are a big part of Zelda, as they are in Metroid. Coming up with clever, properly conveyed, non-frustrating puzzles that also blend seamlessly into a realistic world has always been a challenge. Has there ever been a realistic game that has been able to contain devious puzzles without seeming a) ridiculous ("Hey! This thing is a different color; you should probably hit it! Also, here's a switch in the middle of this room that serves no other purpose!") or b) having the point of the world be the puzzles, e.g. Portal. Some games strive for realistic puzzles by having the puzzles 'naturally fall out' of the game mechanics or world, e.g. physics puzzles in Half Life. But these still seem ridiculous ("Hey, there's a crate over here!), and puzzles that 'fall out' of the game world are usually less satisfying than something that has been carefully crafted and designed by a creator.
Puzzles in realistic settings are also frustrating because the solution is often obfuscated because it isn't always clear what the designer wants the player to do. Of course, if a puzzle was truly realistic, both the problem and solution would be realistic. That is to say, there'd be more than one, say tens, of solutions. But then we run into a problem inherent in game design: lack of manpower. Once you give the player agency, you're no longer crafting his experience because you can never anticipate any of an infinite number of player choices. Good design is hard.
On the other hand, puzzles are a big part of Zelda, as they are in Metroid. Coming up with clever, properly conveyed, non-frustrating puzzles that also blend seamlessly into a realistic world has always been a challenge. Has there ever been a realistic game that has been able to contain devious puzzles without seeming a) ridiculous ("Hey! This thing is a different color; you should probably hit it! Also, here's a switch in the middle of this room that serves no other purpose!") or b) having the point of the world be the puzzles, e.g. Portal. Some games strive for realistic puzzles by having the puzzles 'naturally fall out' of the game mechanics or world, e.g. physics puzzles in Half Life. But these still seem ridiculous ("Hey, there's a crate over here!), and puzzles that 'fall out' of the game world are usually less satisfying than something that has been carefully crafted and designed by a creator.
Puzzles in realistic settings are also frustrating because the solution is often obfuscated because it isn't always clear what the designer wants the player to do. Of course, if a puzzle was truly realistic, both the problem and solution would be realistic. That is to say, there'd be more than one, say tens, of solutions. But then we run into a problem inherent in game design: lack of manpower. Once you give the player agency, you're no longer crafting his experience because you can never anticipate any of an infinite number of player choices. Good design is hard.
Always-honest
Banned
Sure there is some reskinning. And even that helps imo. But some things can just be changed to make more sense in that universe.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
It would get to a point where statues that hold the morphball are prophetically awaiting the chosen one, placed by a long extinct yet immensely wise and all-seeing, alien race. Samus is in fact an intergalactic virgin Mary, betrothed to her destiny of birthing a Metroid-human hybrid, and the morphball will be her pregnancy.
Before you know it, we have tomes of lore, acclaimed authors flexing their might, universes worth of fiction to reference... and in order to just make a game about rolling around in a ball, exploring an alien planet, shooting baddies, and taking on a great threat, you need to reboot and sever connections with endless, serialized continuity in a Crisis of Infinite Earths style. Or have some indie developer make Metroid with a completely different character and setting, that can give us the gameplay and adventure in a spiritual sense, if nothing else.
I believe that nothing needs to be said or known for a player to infer their own reasoning and draw their own conclusions. If you were actually exploring somewhere, you would say "i wonder how this got here" or "that's weird"... and it's ok to get no answers.
I believe that "1000 year history" is perfectly fine to expect, but the morphball is already rolling with Metroid, and it wasn't pushed by the hand of literature. Trying to rationalize it after the fact, is just putting lies on top of truth.
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
Samus is a broken character with gdlk abilities. I can deal with her losing powers if it keeps gameplay open-ended.
nkarafo
Member
Nice way of thinking, maybe i should just stick with that.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
I wouldn't necessarily call it realistic, but maybe human and aware of context... you might enjoy the old PS1/PC puzzle platformer "Heart of Darkness" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNJIHNKHw_4
It's really a different beast to a similar puzzle platformer like Abe's Oddysee. Everything is organic. Out of This World/Another World is the closest thing to it, but that game is much more frustrating to play, and more archaic than Heart of Darkness.
Shadow of the Colossus is another good one... but even that lights things up for you.
Spring-Loaded
Member
That stuff doesn't have to be removed, only altered. I was fine with the explanation for door force-fields and the like because I read those logs; having mandatory initial scans for opening doors so that people learn that justification would be fine. Access tunnels don't all have to be perfectly morphball-sized and can only exist in places where they make sense.
The bigger challenge would be ability acquisition. I'd say have Samus keep all her abilities from previouways s games, but have powers she gains from other bosses and must reverse engineer them to work with her suit. If that isn't feasible, having new ways to use old powers that the player has to figure out could help make that process believable.
The problem isn't there being a lack of answers. Shadow of the Colossus and ICO answer very little, yet few parts of those games feel perfectly suite toward the player. SotC's colossi have weak points that are by themselves convenient, but the ways of reaching them have to be figured out by the player. The way they're designed, figuring out how to reach those weak points feels well-earned rather than laid out perfectly for the player.
Contrast Tomb Raider 2013's levels which have inexplicable posts with rope wrapped around them that lay out an obvious path to go along. Figruing out where to go in that game (even without the waypoints feels less substantial than in other similarly structured games like Metroid.
User 73706
Banned
Story excuse: the Chozo had an influence over the cultures and tech of the entire galaxy. They had their buildings tailor-made to accommodate concepts like the Morph Ball and Grapple Beam. The Space Pirates are a little like Halo's Covenant in that they try to reverse-engineer said tech for dastardly purposes usually involving Metroids. The disadvantage is that Space Pirates are pretty dumb and "artifacts" like Morph Ball tunnels usually stay in the architecture.
Metroid: Zero Mission toys with this during the stealth segment and illustrates that the Space Pirates are not only limber enough to maneuver through Morph Ball tunnels, but have the dexterity to fire their space lasers in them, too. So it might just be unfortunate coincidence that Samus can roll around in their maintenance passageways.
Metroid: Zero Mission toys with this during the stealth segment and illustrates that the Space Pirates are not only limber enough to maneuver through Morph Ball tunnels, but have the dexterity to fire their space lasers in them, too. So it might just be unfortunate coincidence that Samus can roll around in their maintenance passageways.