You don't necessarily have to meet someone in person to know if he/she is a racist.
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can a racist be a good person?
- Thread starter Megalosaro
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You don't necessarily have to meet someone in person to know if he/she is a racist.
somuchwater
Member
There is no point, IMO anyway, in trying to figure out whether who is good and who is bad. The vast majority of people can't be classified this way. The only thing we can do is decide whether to engage with people who hold opinions we don't wish to condone.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Yes, I think they can be, but like all of us they could be better.
I would agree someone is less good, more bad for holding racist beliefs or stances. I don't think making a binary judgement of someone is good. In fact I think it's actually very unbecoming of a person themselves to attempt to think that way.
As to how we quantify good? Well that's a giant open question and gaf has no hope reaching the end game their. But it most certainly doesn't end with a binary view of good and bad in relation to unequivocally judging the entirety of someone.
You can be good and ignorant. Unless you want to say everyone from North Korea cannot be a bad person, or anyone before metropolitan societies.
Being racist in this day and age with all the information available etc. shifts what is socially accepted as decent and acceptable. I wouldn't immediately hate someone for spouting racism if they had a mind open enough to learn how silly it is.
Being said, the many times I have heard something like "black people love hip-hop" etc. is considered racism these days. Or how people assume Asians must have Asian culture, racism is not a spectrum but it does require both intent and a victim.
People aren't inherently racist, and in the west or mixed cities we are much less ignorant, but ignorance of other races, thinking that people are differento, is an effect of lack of information and lies.
It's kinda like accepting older people if they had grown up to be homophobes. Our reaction should be to be upset at old fashioned and false opinions, but it solves nothing if the reaction is to completely write someone off.
Which is why education on LGBT issues, Black History month, having mixed classes and workplaces is important. Culture and Segregation causes racism in such a way that is difficult to unlearn. Our battle against racism should be focused more on Industry, Laws, and how we educate children, because people today are unfortunately racist and ignorant that's not due to their own choices.
But OP, racism aside, it sounds like that person is a bigot. Purposefully choosing to not accept that people are the same despite the proof we have. It's not a question if that makes the person good or bad, it's unfortunate for them and the people they discriminate.
Being racist in this day and age with all the information available etc. shifts what is socially accepted as decent and acceptable. I wouldn't immediately hate someone for spouting racism if they had a mind open enough to learn how silly it is.
Being said, the many times I have heard something like "black people love hip-hop" etc. is considered racism these days. Or how people assume Asians must have Asian culture, racism is not a spectrum but it does require both intent and a victim.
People aren't inherently racist, and in the west or mixed cities we are much less ignorant, but ignorance of other races, thinking that people are differento, is an effect of lack of information and lies.
It's kinda like accepting older people if they had grown up to be homophobes. Our reaction should be to be upset at old fashioned and false opinions, but it solves nothing if the reaction is to completely write someone off.
Which is why education on LGBT issues, Black History month, having mixed classes and workplaces is important. Culture and Segregation causes racism in such a way that is difficult to unlearn. Our battle against racism should be focused more on Industry, Laws, and how we educate children, because people today are unfortunately racist and ignorant that's not due to their own choices.
But OP, racism aside, it sounds like that person is a bigot. Purposefully choosing to not accept that people are the same despite the proof we have. It's not a question if that makes the person good or bad, it's unfortunate for them and the people they discriminate.
Orbis Tabula
Member
I feel like people are almost entirely a product of their environments and that, fundamentally, most of us are pretty much the same. That view leads me to believe that many people who are racist don't have some inherent character flaw, but rather they were raised in an environment that led to them having those views. Further, I believe that most people in the same situation would end up with the same views. I don't think I'm especially intelligent or empathetic or caring by nature. I've simply gained certain traits throughout my life by being exposed to good influences. So it's my empathy that makes me say that a racist can still be a good person. Because I'm not confident that, were I born into that life instead of mine, that I would have turned out any differently than they did.
Of course, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to change their views. You absolutely should.
Of course, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to change their views. You absolutely should.
Yes.
A person is good based on their actions, not their beliefs. Now, I'd say a racist person is less likely to be a good person than a non-racist, but I've known people who are racist to also be good people. That's not to say I've known many racists closely, let along "good" racists, but the one in particular that comes to mind is a family friend- my father's childhood friend- whom I've known all my life and is more like an uncle to me than any of my real uncles. I wasn't even aware he held racist views until around the time I got to college. Occasionally it's pretty upsetting the things he says and we'll just smile and pretend we didn't hear it like we would a grandma who farted, sometimes it's just stupid, but I've never known him to do anything bad to anyone and he's kind to everyone he meets, including the blacks...er, black people. He has a kind heart but he grew up in a very racist and socially conservative family (his dead brother was far worse) and he's unfortunately just a product of his environment.
None of my family is racist at all and we love him. We just have to put up with his racist shit from time to time.
A person is good based on their actions, not their beliefs. Now, I'd say a racist person is less likely to be a good person than a non-racist, but I've known people who are racist to also be good people. That's not to say I've known many racists closely, let along "good" racists, but the one in particular that comes to mind is a family friend- my father's childhood friend- whom I've known all my life and is more like an uncle to me than any of my real uncles. I wasn't even aware he held racist views until around the time I got to college. Occasionally it's pretty upsetting the things he says and we'll just smile and pretend we didn't hear it like we would a grandma who farted, sometimes it's just stupid, but I've never known him to do anything bad to anyone and he's kind to everyone he meets, including the blacks...er, black people. He has a kind heart but he grew up in a very racist and socially conservative family (his dead brother was far worse) and he's unfortunately just a product of his environment.
None of my family is racist at all and we love him. We just have to put up with his racist shit from time to time.
To add to my previous post, it's more so the unwillingness to even understand or empathize with someone due to their ethnic background. It's not just the ignorance.
Yeah, but that isn't every racist person. Which is why I don't think being racist is sufficient enough to make such a judgement of a person.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
Yes. You can be nice and helpful to most, or maybe even all of the people except the ones you're prejudiced against, and even then you may not act out against that minority.
On top of that, there's varying degrees of racism.
On top of that, there's varying degrees of racism.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
He's like the exception. I've been meaning to write a thread about the greatness that was that show. I've gotta get on that at some point..well, I sure did love this guy.
Well yes they can in a sense that they need to be "nice" to people they made dislike else how will they go on living? How would they be able to go to work everyday surrounded by diverse co-workers? How would they collect a check?
I think some racists suppress their inner feelings for the "greater good" of their lives and family. Get them drunk or around similar people who think alike and you find their true colors.
I think some racists suppress their inner feelings for the "greater good" of their lives and family. Get them drunk or around similar people who think alike and you find their true colors.
Delta Assault
Member
Yeah, but you need a lot of information. And I just don't have that. Sure, she started up the Underground Railroad. But that doesn't tell me how she really felt about every race out there. Like someone else pointed out... Gandhi did a lot of good, but he was also a horrible racist to black people. I'm not claiming that that's Harriet Tubman, mind you. Like I said, I just don't know.
Ganzlinger
Member
I think I agree with this.
If the person know that his prejudice against a group is wrong and manage to control himself because he truly believes that offending someone is bad (not because he is afraid of the law) I guess he could be a good person, if deep inside, he is ashamed or feel guilty about his prejudice. Everyone of us already thought of doing something bad and we didn't do that because of our moral values, so maybe that could be applied as well in this case.
And of course, the classical racist, the one who discriminate and offend people isn't a good person.
Life isn't so bimodal. Having faults doesn't make you a bad person.
My uncle is a racist (more like an old bigot), but he's entirely dedicated to his family. My cousin's marriage didn't work out and he drives from Virginia to Florida every other week to help out. He's also extremely supportive of me even though he and I don't see eye to eye on basically anything. I'd say he's a good person even if he has faults and is unrefined on many of his points of view.
My uncle is a racist (more like an old bigot), but he's entirely dedicated to his family. My cousin's marriage didn't work out and he drives from Virginia to Florida every other week to help out. He's also extremely supportive of me even though he and I don't see eye to eye on basically anything. I'd say he's a good person even if he has faults and is unrefined on many of his points of view.
Agree to disagree I guess. I can only speak from my point of view and experience as a minority. Also, I think this debate is entirely contingent upon the definition of "good". As that term is relative.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Yeah, they can be good people. I'm sure many grandparents of Gaffers held racist beliefs, maybe not to an extremity but would you call your grandparents bad? Hell, I'm sure most people 100-200 years ago were good people despite their backwards belief.
Bornstellar
Member
I think the most toxic attitude a person can hold I'd that people are beyond hope of redemption.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
For all that racism is a terrible thing, it's complex.
Someone may be racist because they're a ball of self-loathing and hate, and in many cases you'll find that a blazing racist is also pretty much vile towards everyone they meet. They're just more vile towards the people they are officially bigoted against.
Other people may hold racist ideas because of culture, upbringing, or having been exposed to incredibly inaccurate or warped information. Yes, it is possible for someone to perform good acts, and hold good attitudes in other ways while they are bigoted towards something like a particular ethnicity. A lot of ambient, casual bigotry is based on stereotypes and fear.
It is always interesting when a person, with their contemporary perspective, discovers some noted historical figure was terribly racist in the context of their era and culture, and has an issue processing this. We want things to be good or bad, right or wrong. It's not that simple.
Someone may be racist because they're a ball of self-loathing and hate, and in many cases you'll find that a blazing racist is also pretty much vile towards everyone they meet. They're just more vile towards the people they are officially bigoted against.
Other people may hold racist ideas because of culture, upbringing, or having been exposed to incredibly inaccurate or warped information. Yes, it is possible for someone to perform good acts, and hold good attitudes in other ways while they are bigoted towards something like a particular ethnicity. A lot of ambient, casual bigotry is based on stereotypes and fear.
It is always interesting when a person, with their contemporary perspective, discovers some noted historical figure was terribly racist in the context of their era and culture, and has an issue processing this. We want things to be good or bad, right or wrong. It's not that simple.
Sectorseven
Member
My grandma seems nice.
Necromanti
Member
Being a member of a minority group doesn't automatically mean that you emphasize with (or even recognize) its plights, or that you can't internalize a form of self-hatred, though. (See: the "#NewBlack" movement.) It also doesn't mean you emphasize with all other minority groups equally. Transphobia is common in many gay communities, for example.
Fuck no
I feel like prejudice, discrimination and racism are different things on the same spectrum.
I think on a large scale ppl see prejudice as racism (your black? You probably steal or your Chinese? Your probably good at math) it's certainly an Indicator and a factor but in my opinion racism is far more vile and villainous. It's very deep seated and it involves demoralizing a large subset of people.
I don't think there's enough of anything you can do to offset that level of hate a racist would carry while believing you're a good person.
Plus this just opens the door for a ton of other stuff. Can pedophiles be considered good people?
I feel like prejudice, discrimination and racism are different things on the same spectrum.
I think on a large scale ppl see prejudice as racism (your black? You probably steal or your Chinese? Your probably good at math) it's certainly an Indicator and a factor but in my opinion racism is far more vile and villainous. It's very deep seated and it involves demoralizing a large subset of people.
I don't think there's enough of anything you can do to offset that level of hate a racist would carry while believing you're a good person.
Plus this just opens the door for a ton of other stuff. Can pedophiles be considered good people?
This. I'd also argue that people who are outright racists and don't just hold racist tendencies are often (but not always) products of their environment and/or are very ignorant about matters of systemic oppression.
And like others have said I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of a "not good," person. I think, to some extent, everyone is a good person.
Perhaps this is all just too naive, but I'm not really comfortable with the idea that so many people in the world are outright "bad".
How do you think people get to be racist in the first place? People are not born with racism, if they were born in the more liberal world of today with different parenting, they'd be aight.
To suggest that people can't change beliefs that we have correct answers for means there is no hope for better education for kids. To suggest that Martin Luther King's speech changed no one's mind.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
Of course they can.
One of my best friends is homophobic. Believes being homosexual is a "choice". Dude is actually a PhD as well.
So I just avoid that topic at all costs. But aside from that, he's awesome. Love him.
One of my best friends is homophobic. Believes being homosexual is a "choice". Dude is actually a PhD as well.
So I just avoid that topic at all costs. But aside from that, he's awesome. Love him.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Are you fucking serious?
Yes I would, I love my grandma but she's not a good person. Shes not all bad but she's not a good person precisely because of her unwavering prejudice towards other human beings. Unfortunately she passed before I could have any real discussion about her beliefs and feelings towards certain groups.
Blackstarhat
Member
No a racist is the worst type of human being.
CaptainGyro
Banned
yup
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Clearly.
Cannot wait till we move past racism, I'm sure everyone will be a good person then.
I'll take hyperbole for 1000 Alex.
Are they worse than rapists, murderers, and child molesters?
That's bullshit. I am sure you are ignorant of something a future society will discover you were all wrong about, and then suddenly you will be a bad person for it.
I don't think it's ever worthwhile labelling someone good or bad based on their beliefs or ignorance, but what they choose to do with it. A good person that is racist is still no more likely to kill or make others feel bad. They'd have opinions, that while considered wrong, those opinions on their own don't do much harm.
There are many general principles you can have that will make you a non-destructive person and can have whatever beliefs you want. Otherwise, people with different religion wouldn't be able to ever believe one another to be good people. Respecting people being racist is far less encouraged, if at all, but if you vilify them when they at best have private opinions that were given to them from a time before you were born, that makes you the person doing a bad thing.
It all really depends on what context you want "good" to be in.
A Neo-Nazi that builds homes for the homeless is "good" in the sense that a non-Nazi that doesn't do that isn't "as good".
I have a friend who's a fun guy to hang around and means well, but he can be pretty transphobic and says things that aren't very wholesome to put lightly. Usually it's in the context of "joking around" with other friends, which is a whole 'nuther layer of stuff to consider.
It's a spectrum that makes human interaction all the more annoying.
A Neo-Nazi that builds homes for the homeless is "good" in the sense that a non-Nazi that doesn't do that isn't "as good".
I have a friend who's a fun guy to hang around and means well, but he can be pretty transphobic and says things that aren't very wholesome to put lightly. Usually it's in the context of "joking around" with other friends, which is a whole 'nuther layer of stuff to consider.
It's a spectrum that makes human interaction all the more annoying.
We'll all be considered heartless monsters when other species start getting universal rights in 100 years.
Worse than non-racist serial murderers?
What about when I white person says that some other disenfranchised minority would be better off they they stopped living in a particular way. It doesn't blame their race for the issue, but it also doesn't acknowledge the race dynamics that cause the problem. They are clearly ignorant. Are they a bad person? It's one bad stance, and they invoked it in that moment. But do you really think they are bad? When you say they are bad how strong are you saying it? In their deepest core, at all times? Could it not be some contrivation of ignorance that they must work themselves out of? When you say a person is bad does that preclude that they can't change? If you do think they can change, than I don't think it makes sense to quantify someone as unequivocally bad.
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