Delta Assault
Member
Just think how good people will be in 100 years. Of course, I guess that would mean we'd all become bad. But man, they would really be pretty damn good. Like, the Windows 10 of goodness.
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can a racist be a good person?
- Thread starter Megalosaro
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Just think how good people will be in 100 years. Of course, I guess that would mean we'd all become bad. But man, they would really be pretty damn good. Like, the Windows 10 of goodness.
I'd say yes. Plenty of people have racism instilled in them from a very young age; my Grandmother (100 years old in March) is pretty racially insensitive, not to mention her views on gender and sexuality, but a bad person? I don't think that's fair to say. She's a product of her time, as we all are.
I think along those lines. I mean, if beliefs outweigh actions, then we could also ask if Christians and Muslims can be good people when they believe in a being that tortures people for petty reasons, advocates slavery and is clearly misogynistic.
That's it? People have flaws?
Flaws that oppress entire demographics of people for no better reason than the color of their skin? Flaws that deny minorities loans and mortgages? Flaws that have left minorities at a woeful socioeconomic disadvantage because of historical repression?
And we're just supposed to overlook that and say they can still be considered anywhere near the realm of "good?"
Excuse me if I reject your premise.
lem0n
Member
Yup.
Karsticles
Member
Of course. Racism, in many cases, is just ignorance. Being ignorant doesn't inherently make you a bad person. If she is a holocaust denier, it is likely that some influencial people in her life taught her to be that way.
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
I hate people of all races equally.
Then you're clearly talking about a strong racism. The amount of things that now constitute as racism, even just political opinions on gerrymandering and gentrification will get you labeled a racist. Are you consider those instances as well?
Because I don't think your stance holds up along the entire spectrum.
Simply being ignorant of something is completely different than willfully remaining ignorant knowing full well your are being prejudice because thats how you grew up.
Fuck that noise.
Also racism makes others feel bad, if you don't excercise your prejudice on other people or excercisr it in any form, than your are not really prejudice by definition.
So yeah being racist makes you are horrible piece of shit.
Good night everybody.
Yep. Can't wait to see how even one or two generations from now look down at us old people for our backward ways.
That's a very heavy definition of racist.
By that definition, no one on GAF could be racist, as none of those things are possible on an online forum.
Your example is not the criteria of the person in the OP, since there is no way of us knowing. Any racial ignorance that has any kind of wrongful belief or prejudice is racism. This isn't a game of semantics either, we know that any science of beliefs supporting racism is just false. Not everyone got the memo and hold beliefs that were common sense and understood for decades, probably longer than you have ever been alive for elderly people.
Saying that you aren't prejudice if you don't exercise it makes no sense, prejudice is mostly unspoken, that's the danger of it. Someone expressing false views that they grew up and had all their peers believing in doesn't qualify them as a good or bad person, I'm sorry. I would prefer to call someone's views or actions to be "sucky" but not say they are sucky for believing in it. I'm not trying to say it's completely mutually exclusive, but it's also not constructive to write off the older generation.
There is so much that we are today ignorant to, and some things, if we make it to very old age, won't even be aware of the "proof" of the new general consensus or common sense on another issue we were all wrong about. I guarantee that even parenting the way we consider to be ideal will be seen as "fucked up" in the future. Don't pretend you are entirely liberal, because you cannot be. We figure these things out as we go along.
If you went back in time, if you could just a hundred years, would you go around and tell everyone how fucked up all of their views are? Is there no good person in history?
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
I think everyone can be a good person. I once found out that a person I owed a great deal to was a racist when drunk lol.
Also evey buddy cop movie starts off with one or both being racist
Also evey buddy cop movie starts off with one or both being racist
It's really awful when people have that one stupid exception.
I have a friend at college who gets very uncomfortable when I mention anything about being gay or transgender (partially religious based fear). Another one of my friends is transgender. They became friends through me and she doesn't even know about his past. I did warn him that it might be best not to mention it to her.
So they can be friends, but if it was ever brought up it might put their friendship in jeopardy. Really sucks.
I don't think I would call them bad people as long as they aren't acting upon it. It really bothers me that my family is very Islamophobic, I'm just hoping that they're just bantering amongst themselves and it doesn't end up hurting anyone.
I have a friend at college who gets very uncomfortable when I mention anything about being gay or transgender (partially religious based fear). Another one of my friends is transgender. They became friends through me and she doesn't even know about his past. I did warn him that it might be best not to mention it to her.
So they can be friends, but if it was ever brought up it might put their friendship in jeopardy. Really sucks.
I don't think I would call them bad people as long as they aren't acting upon it. It really bothers me that my family is very Islamophobic, I'm just hoping that they're just bantering amongst themselves and it doesn't end up hurting anyone.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
So would you categorize her as bad and nonredeemable just because of these prejudice beliefs?
You also have to realize that people like that are products of their time. If someone today is racist, fuck em. The world is smaller thanks to the ability to connect across borders, so if there are racists todays then they're completely ignorant of the reality of the planet. Back then though? Grandparents who probably lived secular lives...
It's not so black and white. It's grey, though. And products of time are something we have to take into account, IMO.
Dragonborn
Member
I'd say it'd depend on how racist that person is. For me at least. Someone who goes out of their way to attack people of other races or put them down couldn't possibly be a good person. Someone who maybe has some prejudice but nothing outside of a random remark might just have been raised in an improper way, but I wouldn't say they can't be a good person.
Theres plenty of people my age that are somewhat racist (coming from a Hispanic background).
Theres plenty of people my age that are somewhat racist (coming from a Hispanic background).
There are many degrees of racism, and many reason why one holds racist beliefs, one of which can be sheer ignorance and being brought up in a bad home/environment.
I think a better qualifier for a good person is whether or not they are willing to better themselves and are open to critically analyze even their deepest beliefs.
Of course if you bring out the most extreme examples, there is no ground for a nuanced discussion.
CaptainGyro
Banned
yes
Racism is very broad. Internally discriminating against people based on dumb stereotypes isn't automatically on the same level as a genocidal lynch-mob.
Things aren't that simple. Racism is bad and dumb, but like many other forms of discrimination it's probably very common (though perhaps not so obvious) among 'good people'.
Things aren't that simple. Racism is bad and dumb, but like many other forms of discrimination it's probably very common (though perhaps not so obvious) among 'good people'.
This is a strange question.
If I met a person I knew was a racist, I would not say they were a good person.
However, is racism an incurable condition? Is it an unnatural one? What leads us to racism?
Just branding each other is pretty useless in and of itself, as I believe racism is an inevitable construct that must be continually torn down for all time.
If I met a person I knew was a racist, I would not say they were a good person.
However, is racism an incurable condition? Is it an unnatural one? What leads us to racism?
Just branding each other is pretty useless in and of itself, as I believe racism is an inevitable construct that must be continually torn down for all time.
Wanting to demoralize a child and wanting to rid the world of and/or Dehumanize a group of ppl simply based on race both seem morally reprehensible to me regardless of whatever else they do to qualify as a "good person". Yet, based on your response, the idea that a pedophile could be a good person seems ludicrous. I don't see why the same thought process wouldn't apply to a true racist?
No, its not.
"If you are in France then you are not in Asia" is not equivalent to
"If you are not in France then you are in Asia"
Replace "in France" with "racist" and "in Asia" with "a good person.
Yes.
Do you have preconceived notions about people who wear fedora's, have a collection of My Little Pony dolls, and complain about being ignored by women? Have you ever treated someone differently after finding out that they don't believe in evolution? Do you think that people with face tattoos are prone to making poor decisions?
If you've ever done any of those things, then you've shown prejudice towards another group. I think we can all agree that racism is a much bigger issue then any of these other things, but let's not pretend that racists are the only people who unfairly judge other people.
Do you have preconceived notions about people who wear fedora's, have a collection of My Little Pony dolls, and complain about being ignored by women? Have you ever treated someone differently after finding out that they don't believe in evolution? Do you think that people with face tattoos are prone to making poor decisions?
If you've ever done any of those things, then you've shown prejudice towards another group. I think we can all agree that racism is a much bigger issue then any of these other things, but let's not pretend that racists are the only people who unfairly judge other people.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Come now. Pedophilia is an unfortunate state of attraction. An extremely one with social and judicial repercussions. Opiate tried to open up a topic about it a long while ago IIRC, but it was deleted because...well it was an ugly topic.
If we categorize Pedophilia as a mental disease, then do other mental diseases mean that people who have them are bad people?
17 Seconds
Banned
No.
Perhaps I should specify.
Racism is systemic. Many institutions (social, economic, political) have been designed around the benefit of white people and the denigration of others. If indeed the OPs old lady is white, then she is racist to me, as she has benefited from these institutions in one way or another and holds beliefs that allow these institutions to perpetuate. This, I believe, would make anyone who falls in with these beliefs and specific demographics a bad person.
Prejudice, to me, is separate from racism. Anybody can be prejudiced. Prejudice is very much individual. I believe that is what you two are getting at. If a person is prejudiced, does that make them a bad person? I would say not necessarily, as their prejudice may be very specific, and thus not affect the continued existence of structures designed to cripple the ability of other people to perform socially, economically or politically.
That's what I'm driving at.
Counting on a racist to be open minded is not a bet I would take, but if they were truly invested in bettering themselves, I would be willing to take their moral standing into account.
Yes because everyone is racist in some way. If you deny this you are kidding yourself.
Yup.
Yup.
17 Seconds
Banned
You are comparing race to a bunch of things that are choices. You realize that, right?
Prejudice is a level of hatred for a particular group and the danger is how it is directed.
If its not directed in any way(either directly or indirectly), it is powerless.
I can't address the rest of your post as it doesn't apply to anything I was trying to say.
Non redeemable? When did I say that? I even stated she's not all bad.
I just don't believe you are a good person if you are bigoted.
Product of their time is such a god damn cop out for someone old and bigoted. I've met countless people whom been alive in the same time period as my grandma whom do not hold such toxic views or changed their views over time.
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
Not that strange. You're talking about someone who you met right away that was racist. OP is saying someone who they met was a good person but then found out had some racist tendencies, which is what I think is driving the conversation. The difference in those scenarios.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Isn't racism a choice? If you say no, then you agree that to be racist means having grown into it and being ignorant due to a shitty life they've lead that has caused these racist feelings to boil and grow. Can you really blame someone for their upbringing?
But if you say it is a choice....then your statement would contradict with your answer.
But she's not a good person, is she? And saying something is a product of its time isn't a cop out. It's the truth. Would you call George Washington a bad person? Thomas Jefferson? Benjamin Franklin? The fathers of our country that fought against oppression were oppressors themselves, but many would agree that they're good people because of what they did. Despite all that good they held slaves, and now we can say they were backwards with social issues.
Some people have the capacity to change. Some don't. Some people break down easily, some can stand firm against a storm. Some of them have demons they have to wrestle with mentally, some can change their opinion at the flick of a wrist.
People are different. In their capacity to empathize, in their capacity to have sympathy, in their capacity to understand. To put a blanket 'No she's a bigot, and therefore I just don't believe she was a good person'...aren't you guilty of not being able to empathize or sympathize with how your grandma grew up, for example?
It's a complex issue.
I wouldn't say I disagree with this? In fact, we're pretty much on the same page. I'm only saying that my being a minority helped me (personally) to understand the plight of other disenfranchised groups.
Again, a person who is open to personal growth is someone I would consider being closer to the idea of a "good" person. Someone who I would consider to not necessarily be a "good" person is someone, whom when presented with sound arguments continues to espouse beliefs that contribute to the discrimination of others.
CaptainGyro
Banned
It's me.
Chie Satonaka
Member
No, for fucks sake, no.
The kindly old racist grandmother who loves her grandkids, tithes, goes to church, donates to food drives, gives to charity, adopts orphans and rescues cats from trees is still a shitlord racist.
Also:
There were people in that same "time and place" who wanted nothing to do with racism, so...
I guess you can keep giving them a pass, though. Whatever makes people feel better.
The kindly old racist grandmother who loves her grandkids, tithes, goes to church, donates to food drives, gives to charity, adopts orphans and rescues cats from trees is still a shitlord racist.
Also:
There were people in that same "time and place" who wanted nothing to do with racism, so...
I guess you can keep giving them a pass, though. Whatever makes people feel better.
Sir i'm pretty sure i'm no way shape or form racist. I know myself.
Dragonborn
Member
Being a racist is a choice though. Just like choosing to hate all the stuff listed by that poster. People aren't born racist
dapperbandit
Banned
Only a Shitlord deals in absolutes.
There is no such thing as an absolutely good person. And as a poster on the first page said even a man like Hitler, one of, if not the most evil man in history, at some point displayed kindness and other good traits. Should that absolve Hitler? Of course not.
But we're not talking about Hitler, we're talking about an anonymous racist. If we're to presume that they are not responsible for the deaths of millions and in fact they haven't killed or harmed anyone because of their race, they just hold unsavory opinions on the subject then it's a different matter.
So the question is really this: "If a person holds such nasty opinions, but in all other respects is good to his/her friends, family and peers, works hard, obeys the law (where it counts) and lives with the intent never to harm another person, is that good washed away because of how they think?"
I would say a racist is not necessarily a racist forever, they can be rehabilitated so the capacity for good should be remembered before we condemn someone so entirely. There are of course limits however. Someone who attacks and kills, hurts or in some other way causes direct and intentional damage to someone's life based on their race is almost certainly beyond hope of redemption. There is a deep divide between thought and deed. In my view at least, a person who has committed many good deeds in their life but in the privacy of his or her mind thinks less of people because of their race is not inherently bad.
There is no such thing as an absolutely good person. And as a poster on the first page said even a man like Hitler, one of, if not the most evil man in history, at some point displayed kindness and other good traits. Should that absolve Hitler? Of course not.
But we're not talking about Hitler, we're talking about an anonymous racist. If we're to presume that they are not responsible for the deaths of millions and in fact they haven't killed or harmed anyone because of their race, they just hold unsavory opinions on the subject then it's a different matter.
So the question is really this: "If a person holds such nasty opinions, but in all other respects is good to his/her friends, family and peers, works hard, obeys the law (where it counts) and lives with the intent never to harm another person, is that good washed away because of how they think?"
I would say a racist is not necessarily a racist forever, they can be rehabilitated so the capacity for good should be remembered before we condemn someone so entirely. There are of course limits however. Someone who attacks and kills, hurts or in some other way causes direct and intentional damage to someone's life based on their race is almost certainly beyond hope of redemption. There is a deep divide between thought and deed. In my view at least, a person who has committed many good deeds in their life but in the privacy of his or her mind thinks less of people because of their race is not inherently bad.
FinalStageBoss
Banned
No, racists are human garbage.
CaptainGyro
Banned
assuming that person is a sir is sexist
17 Seconds
Banned
I really don't understand what your point is. I said that your race is not a choice, not that being racist is not a choice.
He made a bunch of ridiculously insulting comparisons. Being an evolution denier is the equivalent of being born black? Jesus.
I think this says a lot about our cultural values that an affront to such values suddenly makes the sum value of a person's life to undesirable. I guess it's a good thing we react strongly to certain things but at the same time it also shows how shallow and unquestioned some of those values are which is ironically the whole problem with racism in general.
I'd say yes, of course. People who were really shitty in some aspects have done much for society and much for their peers. Go back a couple hundred years and you couldn't find someone who isn't a racist, homophobe or intolerant of someone or something. I think even today there are many things people will look back on and say "those people were really fucked up" even those who fancy themselves socially progressive. That's only one aspect of a person. The western ideals of holistic identity are really problematic.
I'd say yes, of course. People who were really shitty in some aspects have done much for society and much for their peers. Go back a couple hundred years and you couldn't find someone who isn't a racist, homophobe or intolerant of someone or something. I think even today there are many things people will look back on and say "those people were really fucked up" even those who fancy themselves socially progressive. That's only one aspect of a person. The western ideals of holistic identity are really problematic.
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