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[DR2K]

There is no doubt that the FF brand has been diluted, and it's not just NeoGAF saying this. I've seen it on other boards and outside the Internet as well through friends who used to play every entry in the series, but got burned bad with XIII so they don't even want to come back. Their excuse is that "it probably won't be good again."

This is a major problem for Square Enix. They've spent too much time entertaining Toriyama's fantasies that they've lot sight of what FF should be really. On consoles, this entire generation has been nothing but FFXIII... well, and soon to be XIV... but if you don't like MMOs or the Lightning games then what else do you have? There's a reason XIII threads go on as long as they do, and that's because the people in them are either criticizing the game, defending it to their death, or talking about something else entirely.

Yup Final Fantasy was a brand I used to associate with top tier quality, especially the mainline games. They carried SNES, PS1, and PS2 and opened the flood gates for all types of RPGs on consoles. This generation has been horrible sales wise because of 13 and 14, their failures as games, and SE incompotance. The overall quality of RPGS from Japan has dropped even further and releases are non-existant. No new Grandia, Valkyrie Profile, Star Ocean, etc. . . all JRPG makers are scared shitless of releasing their games here.

 

[chickdigger802]

Lol wasn't the reason ff7 blew up in the states because of kinda disceptive marketing?

 

[Mandoric]

Lol wasn't the reason ff7 blew up in the states because of kinda disceptive marketing?

Not sure if I'd say "deceptive", but Cloud's spiky-haired ass was all over Mountain Dew and Doritos to an extent that would make Halo 4 blush.

Edit: Though of course, this was Pepsi being paid to push FF, not Halo being paid to push Pepsi like we have nowadays.

 

[RedSwirl]

FF12 was exactly what the JRPG needed to start the transition to the new generation. And yet it inexplicably became one of the most divisive FF games. This in spite of a gorgeous, well-conceived world and a less childish story.

At the time it was basically the opposite of what JRPG fans had become accustomed to, and this was before WRPGs made their big entrance onto current gen consoles. When you analyze it, FFXII is probably the most "western" FF game, but by the same token it's also basically the anti-Final Fantasy. At the time it was FF for people who didn't like FF. Those people have by now probably moved on to Elder Scrolls and Dragon Age.

 

[Juken]

The whole marketing angle is an interesting development. I remember 13 had some marketing behind it and it sold very well. Leona Lewis playing the game!!!!. 13-2 had a fraction of that marketing and sold much lower. Coincidence? I think SE needs to reconsider their marketing department.

XIII-2's drop was more due to brand damage than marketing imo

People bought XIII because XIII and XIV reception hadn't happened yet

 

[Riposte]

XIII-2's drop was more due to brand damage than marketing imo

People bought XIII because XIII and XIV hadn't happened yet.

I don't know what is the point of saying "imo" here. This is sort of the kind of thing that should be backed by facts if you are going to disagree over it. Unfortunately, that requires the market research armchair GAF doesn't have.

 

[outunderthestars]

The whole marketing angle is an interesting development. I remember 13 had some marketing behind it and it sold very well. Leona Lewis playing the game!!!!. 13-2 had a fraction of that marketing and sold much lower. Coincidence? I think SE needs to reconsider their marketing department.

correlation does not equal causation.


Personally I'd say it had more to do with fans not liking FF 13 and not wanting to play more of it...

 

[randomkid]

yo GAF why are you ignoring Mandoric's posts here let me help you out:

Sure, but unlikely. It isn't a quality issue--not that S-E's been pumping out an unblemished line of quality, but their best titles, even as judged by modern critics, were never the great sellers to begin with.

The problem is market positioning.
First, they need a big advertising push, and to be the center of a platform-holder's holiday season. This is not even remotely going to happen as long as CoD continues to sell more on some platforms each Christmas than FF7 did in its first half-decade.

Second, they need good buzz. This is extremely difficult for two reasons:
a) It's a lot harder to get writers in the office or give them access to staff when doing so involves a transPacific flight and an interpreter.
b) Most players and critics have complained long and loud about how archaic the entire JRPG experience is, and how they're unhappy that it's still stuck in the same place it was when they were teens.
This has little to do with objective measure, much to do with subjective, and isn't going to go away until they age away and are replaced with people unhappy that TES 8 and 9 are just more of the same with a new coat of paint.

Third, like any entertainment product they need to speak to the buyer.
Many visual and narrative choices are a hard sell because they're too "animu" and "wacky jappy". Spoiler: Mainstream Japanese audiences agree. This isn't an East-West culture gap until you dig down to animism and wizard-king instead of warrior-king, and even then both are hallmarks of Japanese culture but also of the Germanic and Celtic pre-Christian cultures that so much Western fantasy draws from.
Most of the serious expectation gaps are based on what pop culture someone consumed as an adolescent; someone who was 10-20 for FF7 and Pokemon grew up in a design and writing milieu that included almost exclusively Japanese video games, plus Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon on TV. That familiarity with Japanese game and comic-derived design and writing simply doesn't exist today.

There have been attempts to change this, but they've been for the most part commercial failures. While I love Matsuno's taste for deep political drama, it's even further away from the recent mainstream western power-fantasy fad than half-assed Bildungsroman; Vaan is a scrawny, weak little boy for far longer than Americans are used to playing as one these days, but even Ramza's "victory" is an unmitigated loss. Nier bombaed, in significant part due to Western markets being wary of things Japan makes "just for them".

I think "some consumers" is the key word there. It's difficult-to-impossible for people heavily invested in the particular design language we call "hardcore" now, and honestly no amount of brown paint or gruff middle-aged men will bridge that gap because there are just as many mechanical as aesthetic miscommunications.

The question is where this leaves the average buyer. There's no longer a conveyor belt dropping every nerdy kid on S-E's front door, but "hardcore" gamers are their own little world too, and there's room for a disruptive title or a steady flow of slow-burners to gradually trim the feeders away from that.

 

[Celine]

Clearly, they need to let Enix make a spiritual sequel to Terranigma and the Creation trilogy.


edit: I just now realised that there are some kids growing up with this generation who only know Final Fantasy from XIII.

poor kids

Sort of want ( but only because i m such a bitch for that series, talent isn't there anymore).

I'm willing to contact level5 and ask to fund a game helmed by miyazaki/hashimoto for their Guild series.

 

[Exodus]

And I corrected both of you with my first two posts.

No, you didn't. I don't know any FF that is made to please Western audiences. If they were trying to please western audiences they were not paying attention.

XIII's story was horrible with a terrible cast of characters. XIII-2's only saving grace is that there were Dragon's Lair quick time events during the cutscene so I actually sort of felt like I wasn't in the back seat? On top of that The Witcher's necklace sonar detect items system with a moogle(European developer by the way, horrible idea that).

The only redeeming quality of FFXIII and -2 is the graphics. It looks great and the audio is superb. I just wish they could harness those graphics with captivating gameplay and story. So much money is poured into these projects and it's just unfair that the direction, design and writing were just not good. Having north american looking characters isn't going to cut it anymore. They still have fantastical ideas, the opening of XIII-2 is so damn crazy it reminded me Lost Odyssey's opening cutscene.

I don't know if it's a case of too many cooks in the kitchen but they need to sort their stuff out.

EDIT:

I enjoyed FFXII's story. I thought they were heading in the right direction. What the fuck happened?

 

[Juken]

I don't know what is the point of saying "imo" here. This is sort of the kind of thing that should be backed by facts if you are going to disagree over it. Unfortunately, that requires the market research armchair GAF doesn't have.

Seeing how people discuss XIII, XIV, or FF anywhere on the internet, hearing them discussed on podcasts, or seeing how they were reviewed compared to past entries is enough evidence the brand has been damaged for me.

Go read some FF related threads from 2009 or earlier. The difference in tone can be shocking if you're used to today's SE and FF threads.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Sony pushing their platform or no, it's not really up to them to cover SE in this case really. SE should have invested more promotion into these games so they could have potentially sold better. As a result, SE has really shunned handheld game localization, especially after their continued failures on the Vita and 3DS. But again, they barely put out any marketing for their games on those platforms as well.

I agree. Once again, I'm not saying you're wrong. I do think that Sony and SE has close ties with each other and it might have affected the marketing in some way shape or form. It's definitely possible. I think that if the console maker isn't really showing support for the consoles, it's hard for devs to get behind it whether it be making games or marketing them - see the Vita in this case for the closest and relevant example.

Is it SE's job to market regardless of any situation? Of course.

In the end, yes, SE did a shit job. Period.

in their and many companies defence, the piracy situation was just out of hand.

 

[timetokill]

To answer the OP: maybe on handhelds, where the visuals don't make as much of a difference and western imaginations can use their own cultural biases to flavor it.

It's over for HD and beyond because the cultural differences are too broad, and the HD visuals showcase them with too much clarity.

My thoughts, anyway.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I can see Square becoming a mere handheld developer.

 

[kayos90]

I can see Square becoming a mere handheld developer.

More like a mere browser/iOS developer.

 

[MagiusNecros]

More like a mere browser/iOS developer.

Even better.

 

[1st Course]

How many WRPGs has outsold FFXIII this gen? Has Skyrim outsold Pokemon yet? (yeah I know not your average jrpg etc)

WRPGs might be much popular than what they used to be now, but despite that, there are still very few companies making them (duo to western development cost probably), even today we probably still get more JRPGs than WRPGs.

The problem with JRPGs is not how good or bad they are, the problem with the genre is that there are very few AAA jrpgs being made than what used to be during the PS1/PS2 era, It's the reason why the very few WRPGs out there managed to outshine the genre in the west because really there no AAA JRPG being made anymore that is not name "Final Fantasy", or that what I believe at least.

 

[Orayn]

I would consider that a future without JRPGs. Which isn't exactly the worst thing that could happen. At some point they begin to look like games that fit in other genres. I would sooner put FFXII and Xenoblade (not to mention FFXI and FFXIV) or at least games wish pushes more in that direction alongside WoW and Dragon Age than previous Final Fantasys or similar games derived from Dragon Quest.

If there is to be a future for JRPGs, then I see The Last Remnant and Final Fantasy XIII being examples of it, with a lot of room to improve.

The Last Remnant is pretty "W" as far as JRPGs go, seeing as it's a spiritual successor to the not-so-linear, customization-happy SaGa series. Why don't you take away its "J" status like you do Xenoblade?

But that shouldn't mean that games like Bravely Default and Four Heroes of Light don't have their place.

I was thinking mostly about "frontline" games. Traditional ones will always be around, I just don't see them suddenly bringing the genre back to relevance.

 

[Dark Octave]

I'll just leave this here....

I don't know why you guys have so much faith in this logo, which is all it is at this point. Isn't it being made by the same people who are currently ruining the Final Fantasy franchise and running it's sales into the ground?

 

[Riposte]

The Last Remnant is pretty "W" as far as JRPGs go, seeing as it's a spiritual successor to the not-so-linear, customization-happy SaGa series. Why don't you take away its "J" status like you do Xenoblade?

Probably because the "J" and "W" are irrelevant. I'm talking about Dragon Quest-likes, tactical combat systems with limited/abstract mobility.

 

[kayos90]

I don't know why you guys have so much faith in this logo, which is all it is at this point. Isn't it being made by the same people who are currently ruining the Final Fantasy franchise and running it's sales into the ground?

No. Though, I would say that Versus not being released is indirectly affecting the company negatively. LOL.

 

[antitrop]

Not sure if I'd say "deceptive", but Cloud's spiky-haired ass was all over Mountain Dew and Doritos to an extent that would make Halo 4 blush.

Edit: Though of course, this was Pepsi being paid to push FF, not Halo being paid to push Pepsi like we have nowadays.

I think what he meant was that the television ads showed nothing but CG cutscenes and print ads were CG stills or concept art. No gameplay, no "real" graphics. Because the real graphics looked like shit.

 

[Toth]

I think what he meant was that the television ads showed nothing but CG cutscenes and print ads were CG stills or concept art. No gameplay, no "real" graphics. Because the real graphics looked like shit.

What? The graphics were mind-blowing for 1997...outside of the polygon characters in the field of course.

 

[Orayn]

Probably because the "J" and "W" are irrelevant. I'm talking about Dragon Quest-likes, tactical combat systems with limited/abstract mobility.

TLR's level of mobility puts it far, far ahead of the curve as far as I'm concerned, but I understand what you're saying now.

Also, I agree that it might be for the best if traditional JRPGs are an evolutionary dead end in terms of popularity and mainstream recognition. That genre's offshoots (WRPG and MMO-influenced, action-RPG, SRPG, and whatever you want to call Persona) usually prove to be far more interesting.

 

[crazyjah2003]

I think the HD town conundrum will get the better of us. All great JRPGs that will come out at any point in the future will use PS2-WII era graphics at most, even if they try to mask it like NIER or DarkSouls did.

 

[Thoraxes]

I don't know why you guys have so much faith in this logo, which is all it is at this point. Isn't it being made by the same people who are currently ruining the Final Fantasy franchise and running it's sales into the ground?

No, but i'm still expecting it to be "bad" like people consider games in FNC to be.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I don't know why you guys have so much faith in this logo, which is all it is at this point. Isn't it being made by the same people who are currently ruining the Final Fantasy franchise and running it's sales into the ground?

This post makes me laugh.

 

[Orayn]

I think the HD town conundrum will get the better of us. All great JRPGs that will come out at any point in the future will use PS2-WII era graphics at most, even if they try to mask it like NIER or DarkSouls did.

Dark Souls is a horse of a different color in terms of genre, and while it's not exactly a technical masterpiece, it hardly has PS2-Wii era graphics.

 

[gate777]

Slightly off-topic but somewhat related. What are the chances that Disgaea Dimension 2 releases in North America?

 

[antitrop]

Dark Souls is a horse of a different color in terms of genre, and while it's not exactly a technical masterpiece, it hardly has PS2-Wii era graphics.

Playing the Dark Souls: Prepare to Die edition proves this.

 

[crazyjah2003]

Dark Souls is a horse of a different color in terms of genre, and while it's not exactly a technical masterpiece, it hardly has PS2-Wii era graphics.

I was underwhelmed by how it looked compared to even some of the Launch 360 games; not to count the likes of Lost Odyssey... I think Dark Souls could have easily been ported and handled by the PS2, Especially if you consider how FFXII looks and runs.

I don't really think it is PS2-WII era graphics as it stands, but could have been ported down with minimal loss.

 

[demidar]

I was underwhelmed by how it looked compared to even some of the Launch 360 games; not to count the likes of Lost Odyssey... I think Dark Souls could have easily been ported and handled by the PS2, Especially if you consider how FFXII looks and runs.

I don't really think it is PS2-WII era graphics as it stands, but could have been ported down with minimal loss.

Huh, wha-?

What am I reading? I mean I guess you kind of have a point, considering the Dark Souls PC version was utterly terrible which could mean From could have terrible programmers. But since it was fixed thanks to Durante the game is goddamn spectacular.

 

[Wazzim]

Slightly off-topic but somewhat related. What are the chances that Disgaea Dimension 2 releases in North America?

I'd say pretty big? All the others got released in the US (and EU, eventually).

 

[antitrop]

I was underwhelmed by how it looked compared to even some of the Launch 360 games; not to count the likes of Lost Odyssey... I think Dark Souls could have easily been ported and handled by the PS2, Especially if you consider how FFXII looks and runs.

I don't really think it is PS2-WII era graphics as it stands, but could have been ported down with minimal loss.

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?

Huh, wha-?

What am I reading? I mean I guess you kind of have a point, considering the Dark Souls PC version was utterly terrible which could mean From could have terrible programmers. But since it was fixed thanks to Durante the game is goddamn spectacular.

All Durante's fix does is serve to enhance the detail that is already there in the first place. It's how Dark Souls is supposed to look.

 

[Riposte]

TLR's level of mobility puts it far, far ahead of the curve as far as I'm concerned, but I understand what you're saying now.

Also, I agree that it might be for the best if traditional JRPGs are an evolutionary dead end in terms of popularity and mainstream recognition. That genre's offshoots (WRPG and MMO-influenced, action-RPG, SRPG, and whatever you want to call Persona) usually prove to be far more interesting.

What The Last Remnant does is focus on relative positioning between entities instead of using a tactical map. If you think about it is not too far off from the "ranks" system you see in some traditional JRPGs with some heavy "engagement" rules laid on top. That I believe fits into my idea of JRPGs.

With that in mind, I don't think it is that simple to say it is a dead-end, at least where we are right now(ultimately, yeah, free and realistic combat will win out). What we are talking about here is like classic, loosely interpretative Dungeons & Dragons vs modern, miniature tactical combat Dungeon & Dragons (or Dragon Quest vs Pool of Radiance (1988). However, no one is tapping into potential of such abstract system combat systems. We are still lined up like football players, but really the screen could display anything (and change from anything to anything, shifting scale at a rapid rate, e.g. a soldier to an airship to entire armies as single units, and back and forth) and still fit. It is as if you used QTEs not to represent highly cinematic moments, but basic attack animations. When you select "attack" on a menu anything could come out (which is to also say what is on that menu is free to change as well), you are about as limited as you would be in a cutscene. There is no worry for positioning and such, because that could all be contextual and relative.

I think if SE could use their presentation-building chops to take something like XIII-2's opening battle and make it an actual battle with meaningful tactical choices, you'd see a strong reason for the ATB system to stick around. Make something where everything is entirely contextual. I'm tempted to quote a post where I wrote out exactly what I meant with highly-detailed examples, but I've said enough.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

Basically they need to make JRPG's that appeal beyond NEOGAF.

 

[demidar]

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?




All Durante's fix does is serve to enhance the detail that is already there in the first place. It's how Dark Souls is supposed to look.

You're telling me that From can't get their games to look how they're supposed to look. And one guy fixed it.

And the fix also fixed rendering resolutions as well.

 

[Kagari]

I don't know why you guys have so much faith in this logo, which is all it is at this point. Isn't it being made by the same people who are currently ruining the Final Fantasy franchise and running it's sales into the ground?

No, it's being made by the staff who worked on FFVII and Kingdom Hearts.

 

[Remk]

Third, like any entertainment product they need to speak to the buyer.
Many visual and narrative choices are a hard sell because they're too "animu" and "wacky jappy".

But you see, they are talking to the buyer, the japanese buyer and that is the problem.

Creating that targeted product gives you the anime tropes, moe, plucky teenagers and whatnot, because is what sells to them and in turn limits what you can create.

What I feel needs to be done is just let creativity run wild and fund those projects, I am sure there are people within squenix or atlus that can create the "next" final fantasy

 

[Dresden]

I was underwhelmed by how it looked compared to even some of the Launch 360 games; not to count the likes of Lost Odyssey... I think Dark Souls could have easily been ported and handled by the PS2, Especially if you consider how FFXII looks and runs.

I don't really think it is PS2-WII era graphics as it stands, but could have been ported down with minimal loss.

Good god, what art thou smoking. Look back at launch titles for PS3/360. Look back at actual PS2-games, and what was considered the pinnacle back then.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

No, it's being made by the staff who worked on FFVII and Kingdom Hearts.

I completely forgot about this "little" factoid. It just makes me even more hyped. I feel like we've waited for so long; surely there can't be a lot more waiting left for us. (presuming the game doesn't get scrapped.)

Versus/LastGuardian 2013!

 

[Skunkers]

But would it help the genre? probably not. It would draw in players that want to play FF7 all over again and relive their first rpg ever, but i doubt it would draw many "new" players in- and that's really what the genre needs. New ideas and new mechanics to draw new players, not rehashing the same games with a higher polygon count.

Can't say I agree. The level of hype from older gamers would doubtlessly transfer to a lot of younger, newer players checking it out. When a hotly anticipated game is coming out it pulls in all spectrums of players. Street Fighter 4 brought in a huge number of new players, many of whom were not old enough to remember the SF2 heydey or the last time a good SF game had come out. They could conceivably make some tweaks to FFVII's battle system that would make it fresh while still retaining the general feel of the ATB/materia systems. And IMHO, that game being successful would be good for the genre by having Square look back at those old systems and seeing what worked rather than continuing the throw-shit-at-a-wall nature of the systems in newer games like FFXIII.

 

[Nirolak]

Possible? Certainly.

Probable? Not as much.

These days, especially with enthusiast focused games, it's incredibly hard to appeal to both Japan and the West at the million plus level. Since the absolute cap on Japanese sales potential is about 6 million copies, and getting above four million is pretty astronomical as it is, this means to return to even FFX level (8+ million), you have to heavily appeal in the West.

Now, for a non-sports game, to sell 8+ million in the West, you're probably looking at around $40-$50 million in development budget along with $40-$100 million in marketing. That right there reduces the number of potential candidates by an extreme amount. If we're only talking third parties, you pretty much are only left with Square Enix and Capcom.

On top of that, you have to make something that appeals at that level of sales. So far this generation, the 8+ million selling $60 retail franchises from third parties are CoD, FIFA, Battlefield, Elder Scrolls, Diablo, Assassin's Creed, Grand Theft Auto, and Red Dead. Really you're looking at an incredibly small pool to work with.

Now if we lower the bar to like 4-5 million, FFXIII-2 shipped 3.2 million, so ignoring the tremendous amount of channel stuffing that game had, even today they're not light years away. A mainline Dragon Quest game in on 3DS could probably hit that number as well.

Pokemon should also easily hit that number, but I get a sense by "JRPGs" we're talking about high production value console games like Final Fantasy.

 

[Snakeyes]

This is going to sound cliche but I feel like JRPGs have gone into a decline since Ito and Matsuno were pushed to the back of (or simply kicked off) the bus, and only them or some up-and-coming game designer inspired by them could put the genre back into the spotlight and steer it into a fresh direction.

Look at Vagrant Story and FFXII; the former has cinematic storytelling, an engrossing plot (with little to no melodrama) and strong characters while the latter features a huge seamless world with plenty of side-quests and optional areas to explore. Both have forward-thinking battle systems that are much more dynamic than those in your average JRPG. All these elements appeal to the average Western gamer and a series of new games that builds on that foundation could very well return the genre to its former glory.

Character designers also need to get with the times. More strong, mature main characters, less angsty teens. If you're gonna use anime as an inspiration, take cues from shows that had worldwide appeal beyond the 12-18 demographic like Ghost In The Shell, Cowboy Bebop and Fullmetal Alchemist instead of the average shonen.

On a side note, one series that could do very well in the West if given the high budget treatment is mainline Megami Tensei. Straightforward characters, morality system, post apocalyptic setting, guns, zombies, monsters... The Walking Dead crowd would eat it up with proper marketing.

 

[DJIzana]

I completely forgot about this "little" factoid. It just makes me even more hyped. I feel like we've waited for so long; surely there can't be a lot more waiting left for us. (presuming the game doesn't get scrapped.)

Versus/LastGuardian 2013!

At the very least, they could at least start marketing the HELL out of these titles in 2013... if they don't release them. -___-

I should also note that it's funny this is only plaguing Sony. Damn... at least we have something though. Poor Xbox people. =(

 

[demidar]

This is going to sound cliche but I feel like JRPGs have gone into a decline since Ito and Matsuno were pushed to the back of (or simply kicked off) the bus, and only them or some up-and-coming game designer inspired by them could put the genre back into the spotlight and steer it into a fresh direction.

Look at Vagrant Story and FFXII; the former has cinematic storytelling, an engrossing plot (with little to no melodrama) and strong characters while the latter features a huge seamless world with plenty of side-quests and optional areas to explore. Both have forward-thinking battle systems that are much more dynamic than those in your average JRPG. All these elements appeal to the average Western gamer and a series of new games that builds on that foundation could very well return the genre to its former glory.

Character designers also need to get with the times. More strong, mature main characters, less angsty teens. If you're gonna use anime as an inspiration, take cues from shows that had worldwide appeal beyond the 12-18 demographic like Ghost In The Shell, Cowboy Bebop and Fullmetal Alchemist instead of the average shonen.

I think the problem is the young blood isn't getting a shot on their own projects because the seniors (don't conflate that with skilled) are cockblocking them with their elevated position in order to stroke their own ego. There's also the fact that these games tend to be so tropey in a bad way. Look at Alyssa Zaidelle from XIII-2, urgh how despicable with her airheadedness. It's fine to add in some tropes, but don't go overboard since graphical fidelity makes cultural differences stand out.

 

[Toth]

Possible? Certainly.

Probable? Not as much.

These days, especially with enthusiast focused games, it's incredibly hard to appeal to both Japan and the West at the million plus level. Since the absolute cap on Japanese sales potential is about 6 million copies, and getting above four million is pretty astronomical as it is, this means to return to even FFX level (8+ million), you have to heavily appeal in the West.

Now, for a non-sports game, to sell 8+ million in the West, you're probably looking at around $40-$50 million in development budget along with $40-$100 million in marketing. That right there reduces the number of potential candidates by an extreme amount. If we're only talking third parties, you pretty much are only left with Square Enix and Capcom.

On top of that, you have to make something that appeals at that level of sales. So far this generation, the 8+ million selling $60 retail franchises from third parties are CoD, FIFA, Battlefield, Elder Scrolls, Diablo, Assassin's Creed, Grand Theft Auto, and Red Dead. Really you're looking at an incredibly small pool to work with.

Now if we lower the bar to like 4-5 million, FFXIII-2 shipped 3.2 million, so ignoring the tremendous amount of channel stuffing that game had, even today they're not light years away. A mainline Dragon Quest game in on 3DS could probably hit that number as well.

Pokemon should also easily hit that number, but I get a sense by "JRPGs" we're talking about high production value console games like Final Fantasy.

Well said Nirolak. I did not want to include Pokemon in the discussion though since it has such a HUGE market as is. I was thinking more of new IPs that could come close to the million mark.

 

[Mandoric]

But you see, they are talking to the buyer, the japanese buyer and that is the problem.

Creating that targeted product gives you the anime tropes, moe, plucky teenagers and whatnot, because is what sells to them and in turn limits what you can create.

What I feel needs to be done is just let creativity run wild and fund those projects, I am sure there are people within squenix or atlus that can create the "next" final fantasy

Read the line after that. Some people in the US--mostly the really, really dudebro or the really, really cynical--have some sort of strange impression that actual animu overload is any more palatable to the average Japanese buyer than the average US one (nope; see sales of Tales or Valkyria) or that FF constitutes it (nope; see Tales or Valkyria themselves).

Most of the genre is working in a design language that's very different from what sells as "hardcore" nowadays, but probably not any less palatable to the detached mass market in either country. There's a reason why even with all the missteps we've gone over in this thread, FF continues to be the most balanced of the multimillion sellers between regions; in fact, for 13 itself it was nearly even at slightly under 2m each, JP/NA/PAL.

You're also assuming that the staffs aren't by and large creating what they want; Vaan's status as a late addition aside, prettyboy Balfrear in his lace collar isn't any closer to a "heroic" design in that very limited language, especially if he was neutered of his airship and Han Solo expyness for early narrative purposes. Basch is a maybe, but being the younger, weaker brother in a sibling rivalry would still be a pretty tough sell.

 

[Manmademan]

Well said Nirolak. I did not want to include Pokemon in the discussion though since it has such a HUGE market as is. I was thinking more of new IPs that could come close to the million mark.

Dragon's dogma was a new IP that crossed the million mark. Not by much, as far as I can tell- but it did. Some polish could have DD2 being a legitimate contender in the league of DA:O or Dark Souls.

 

[Meccanical]

Dragon's dogma was a new IP that crossed the million mark. Not by much, as far as I can tell- but it did. Some polish could have DD2 being a legitimate contender in the league of DA:O or Dark Souls.

That's the main reason I bought it, I saw the potential and I had to nurture it.