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Can someone explain a libertarian's view on monopolies?

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FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
Given the recent events such as Comcast's attempt to buy Time Warner and Verizon's throttling of Netflix to blackmail Netflix into paying them more for bandwidth, I'm very curious about the libertarian take on this.

Given that there is a large base of libertarians who extensively use the internet, do they feel these are really good things and the sign of a healthy and functioning free market?

It seems that both of these developments would really piss off anyone tech-savvy, especially the hardcore bitcoin/WoW/Second Life libertarians whose social life is mainly lived on line.

Is there a different sect of tech-savvy libertarians who are all for the free market in everything but tech-related fields?
 
The theory I've read is that monopolies must maintain low enough prices and good enough product in order to maintain their monopoly. If they started being too abusive and pricing things too high someone else would come in offering lower prices. Google Fiber for example.
 
The theory I've read is that monopolies must maintain low enough prices in order to maintain their monopoly. If they started being too abusive and pricing things far too high someone else would come in offering lower prices.
The normal logical fallacy is to miss that there are things that make something that ostensibly has "competition" not actually have it. Such as say, emergency services, where you're not going to be shopping for an ambulance. Or in the case of utilities- you're at the mercy of the local infrastructure.
 
The theory I've read is that monopolies must maintain low enough prices in order to maintain their monopoly. If they started being too abusive and pricing things far too high someone else would come in offering lower prices.

So they view cable companies who have monopolies on high speed bandwidth in all major US cities as a temporary inconvenience, and someone will eventually come in with a ton a of bandwidth of their own and offer better prices?
 
The normal logical fallacy is to miss that there are things that make something that ostensibly has "competition" not actually have it. Such as say, emergency services, where you're not going to be shopping for an ambulance. Or in the case of utilities- you're at the mercy of the local infrastructure.

I do believe in natural monopolies, and I would agree that Internet is one and should be a utility. But that's the argument I've read, and it does make sense(to me) in a lot of industries, but probably not internet.
 
So they view cable companies who have monopolies on high speed bandwidth in all major US cities as a temporary inconvenience, and someone will eventually come in with a ton a of bandwidth of their own and offer better prices?

Basically they're idiots and they don't understand how cabals [err.. cartels] form or the definition of collusion.
 
Problem with this thinking is it assumes everything grew out of and started in the libertarian view of economic policy as a whole to begin with. It's the same with the discussion of any economic view points.
 
So they view cable companies who have monopolies on high speed bandwidth in all major US cities as a temporary inconvenience, and someone will eventually come in with a ton a of bandwidth of their own and offer better prices?

In that Libertarian utopia, there would be no government body that grants or revokes permissions or regulates where cables may be laid or what radio frequencies should be used. So the barrier for entry for a new company would be much lower. You could get a spool of optical fiber or 1000 access points and start your own ISP.
 
They believe that the almighty free market will prevail, no matter what. It's akin to a religious person pointing to their holy texts as an answer to everything.
 
The normal logical fallacy is to miss that there are things that make something that ostensibly has "competition" not actually have it. Such as say, emergency services, where you're not going to be shopping for an ambulance. Or in the case of utilities- you're at the mercy of the local infrastructure.

That's one problem with it. Barrier to action is another other problem. The market is not composed of an infinite population engaging in business, solutions arising to market problems isn't like the probabilistic behavior of a gas
 
Is there a law banning other investors from building their own cable infrastructure? Is the cable company given an unfair advantage with public funding?

There is a law that makes you get a permit before you start ripping open streets and installing your own fiber...

So, I guess that makes the cable bandwidth monopoly a legal monopoly?
 
How do you define a cable company who owns all the bandwidth in a city? De facto?


It's a natural monopoly, which is why it should be a utility and not like the rest of businesses, because it's essential.


As far as libertarians views on economics. A lot of it revolves around the idea that markets only have competition, and that monopolies never form I. The first place because the "markets" keep prices down. However it has to ignore reality, and jump through a large portion of assumptions to get to the idea that markets can handle monopolies because of "competition." However evidence shows collusion between multi-companies and oligarchs form. Hell most boards of all major companies rotate their members and many of them are all interconnected, they aren't really competitions against teach other unless it's a foreign company who's competing against local companies because they don't share the same board or interests. Then it gets down to countries then having to have open and tariff free trade to get to a place where those countries companies can compete fairly, yet unfairly because of local laws because circumvented to gain an advantage in a different country.


It boils down to looking good on paper, but in practice they ignore history, economics, life, politics, laws, monopolies, oligarchies, networks, humans, and how unregulated markets actually act.
 
Problem with this thinking is it assumes everything grew out of and started in the libertarian view of economic policy as a whole to begin with. It's the same with the discussion of any economic view points.
The big issue with many libertarian/Austrian views of modern economic policy is that they already won many of the battles decades ago where they had legitimate points about economic theory. Their concepts entered the mainstream and were adopted. Now they primarily have the leftovers that weren't good enough.

That's not to say that things are settled (they're very much not, and there are still bad/misguided ideas that are being re-evaluated) but the Austrian stuff originated from a time when Karl Marx had legitimacy. It's much the same way that we see older generations unable to get their heads out of the Cold War paradigm when approaching foreign policy.
 
This assumes new players have the freedom to come in and that monopolies won't leverage their power unfairly to squash newcomers.

The Free Market by itself doesn't work because power comes with fiscal success and corporations will leverage that power to "distort" the "natural free market" congressional bribes, etc.
 
This assumes new players have the freedom to come in and that monopolies won't leverage their power unfairly to squash newcomers.

The Free Market by itself doesn't work because power comes with fiscal success and corporations will leverage that power to "distort" the "natural free market" congressional bribes, etc.

Forgetting, genuinely or willfully, that money equates to power tends to be the undercurrent of the vast majority of political opinions I disagree with.
 
Assuming your definition of cartel is "a formal (explicit) "agreement" among competing firms or a formal organization of producers and manufacturers that agree to fix prices, marketing, and production." (Wikipedia), I don't mind. If you want to reak the cartel, just enter the market and don't respect their agreement. Iliad did it in France when they offered cheaper mobile phone contracts with Free Mobile in 2012. The other companies (Orange, Bouyges Telecom and SFR) immediately lowered their prices and lost many customers to Free.
 
Is there a law banning other investors from building their own cable infrastructure? Is the cable company given an unfair advantage with public funding?

I am actually curious on your viewpoint as far as bandwidth monopolies in major cities, and them using that to leverage power over anyone who uses it such as throttling Netflix.

Do you see this as just a small consequence of a free market, and there will eventually be other companies that will lay down their own infrastructure to compete with the monopoly?
 
The theory I've read is that monopolies must maintain low enough prices and good enough product in order to maintain their monopoly. If they started being too abusive and pricing things too high someone else would come in offering lower prices. Google Fiber for example.

This doesn't work effectively in an industry with extremely high infrastructure costs (the costs of laying new fiber practically guarantees that 'competition' in most markets will be non-existent). Not to mention that if a company had a true, unregulated monopoly, they'd just buy up any competitor before it became big enough to become a threat.

Personally, I consider libertarian economic philosophy to be a giant joke - a highly simplistic view of the world that relies on the kindness of people to work effectively, and since most people act either mainly or solely in self-interest, relying on their kindness to get things done just doesn't work. Sometimes, you just need regulation, and even lax regulation is better than no regulation at all in most cases (though regulation with actual teeth would be better).
 
Assuming your definition of cartel is "a formal (explicit) "agreement" among competing firms or a formal organization of producers and manufacturers that agree to fix prices, marketing, and production." (Wikipedia), I don't mind. If you want to reak the cartel, just enter the market and don't respect their agreement. Iliad did it in France when they offered cheaper mobile phone contracts with Free Mobile in 2012. The other companies (Orange, Bouyges Telecom and SFR) immediately lowered their prices and lost many customers to Free.

And what if those in the cartel leverage the wealth and power they have accumulated to drive out a new competitor who, by almost definition, has far less resources?
 
I am actually curious on your viewpoint as far as bandwidth monopolies in major cities, and them using that to leverage power over anyone who uses it such as throttling Netflix.

Do you see this as just a small consequence of a free market, and there will eventually be other companies that will lay down their own infrastructure to compete with the monopoly?

Other companies may or may not lay down their own infrastructure but even if they don't, I don't see the problem.
 
The normal logical fallacy is to miss that there are things that make something that ostensibly has "competition" not actually have it. Such as say, emergency services, where you're not going to be shopping for an ambulance. Or in the case of utilities- you're at the mercy of the local infrastructure.
Back to your Socialistcapitalistcommunist Utopia. And help me get green card(s).
 
The theory I've read is that monopolies must maintain low enough prices and good enough product in order to maintain their monopoly. If they started being too abusive and pricing things too high someone else would come in offering lower prices. Google Fiber for example.

How would you know if they are pricing products too high or providing a poor product if you have nothing with which you can compare?

A legal monopoly is enforced by the government (e.g. currency). The other possible situation is a de facto monopoly (e.g. Microsoft Windows), which is fine in my opinion.
Please provide your suggestion for alternatives in minting fiat currency.

Is there a law banning other investors from building their own cable infrastructure? Is the cable company given an unfair advantage with public funding?
Do you understand economies of scale?
 
Libertarianism is more of a broad political philosophy than a school of economics, but the Austrian school (which tracks the closest to libertarians) believe that monopolies cannot be formed without an intervention from the state and generally reject the very idea of natural monopoly.
When faced with empiric evidence that seem to suggest the contrary they weigh it in and... nah, just kidding, Austrians don't believe in empiricism.
 
Fiscal, of course.

Les se faire is the stance they take. The problem is that libertarians all walk blindly through the world pretending that everyone is playing by the same rules and all have the same end goal, what ever that might be I have no clue.
 
Given the recent events such as Comcast's attempt to buy Time Warner and Verizon's throttling of Netflix to blackmail Netflix into paying them more for bandwidth, I'm very curious about the libertarian take on this.

Given that there is a large base of libertarians who extensively use the internet, do they feel these are really good things and the sign of a healthy and functioning free market?

Does a libertarian view your examples as part of a free market? I think you need to check your assumptions a bit there.
 
So they view cable companies who have monopolies on high speed bandwidth in all major US cities as a temporary inconvenience, and someone will eventually come in with a ton a of bandwidth of their own and offer better prices?
No, they claim in a true free market it would not have happened because the current monopolies were subsidized and facilitated by governments. You can't have competition when a city signs exclusive rights or subsidizes infrastructure costs and is not willing to do so for competition.
 
Milton Friedman in Capitalism and Freedom:

THE SOURCES OF MONOPOLY
There are three major sources of monopoly: "technical" considerations, direct and indirect governmental assistance, and private collusion.

1. Technical Considerations As pointed out in chapter ii, monopoly arises to some extent because technical considerations make it more efficient or economical to have a single enterprise rather than many. The most obvious example Is a telephone system, water system, and the like in an individual community. There is unfortunately no good solution for technical monopoly. There is only a choice among three evils: private unregulated monopoly, private monopoly regulated by the state, and government operation.

It seems impossible to state as a general proposition that one of these evils is uniformly preferable to another. As stated in chapter ii, the great disadvantage of either governmental regulation or governmental operation of monopoly is that it is exceedingly difficult to reverse. In consequence, I am inclined to urge that the least of the evils is private unregulated monopoly wherever this is tolerable. Dynamic changes are highly likely to undermine it and there is at least some chance that these will be allowed to have their effect. And even in the short run, there is generally a wider range of substitutes than there seems to be at first blush, so private enterprises are fairly narrowly limited in the extent to which it is profitable to keep prices above cost. Moreover, as we have seen, the regulatory agencies often tend themselves to fall under the control of the producers and so prices may not be any lower with regulation than without regulation.

Fortunately, the areas in which technical considerations make monopoly a likely or a probable outcome are fairly limited. They would offer no serious threat to the preservation of a free economy if it were not for the tendency of regulation, introduced on this ground, to spread to situations in which it is not so justified.

2. Direct and Indirect Government Assistance Probably the most important source of monopoly power has been government assistance, direct and indirect. Numerous examples of reasonably direct government assistance have been cited above. The indirect assistance to monopoly consists of measures taken for other purposes which have as a largely unintended effect the imposition of limitations on potential competitors of existing firms. Perhaps the three clearest examples are tariffs, tax legislation, and law enforcement and legislation with respect to labor disputes.

Tariffs have of course been imposed largely to "protect" domestic industries, which means to impose handicaps on potential competitors. They always interfere with the freedom of individuals to engage in voluntary exchange. After all, the liberal takes the individual, not the nation or citizen of a particular nation, as his unit. Hence he regards it just as much a violation of freedom if citizens of the United States and Switzerland are prevented from consummating an exchange that would be mutually advantageous as if two citizens of the United States are prevented from doing so. Tariffs need not produce monopoly. If the market for the protected industry is sufficiently large and technical conditions permit many firms, there can be effective competition domestically in the protected industry, as in the United States in textiles. Clearly, however, tariffs do foster monopoly. It is far easier for a few firms than for many to collude to fix prices, and it is generally easier for enterprises in the same country to collude than for enterprises in different countries. Britain was protected by free trade from widespread monopoly during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, despite the relatively small size of her domestic market and the large scale of many firms. Monopoly has become a much more serious problem in Britain since free trade was abandoned, first after World War I and then more extensively in the early 1930's.

The effects of tax legislation have been even more indirect yet not less important. A major element has been the linkage of the corporate and individual income tax combined with the special treatment of capital gains under the individual income tax. Let us suppose a corporation earns an income of $1 million over and above corporate taxes. If it pays the whole million dollars to its stockholders as dividends, they must include it as part of their taxable income. Suppose they would, on the average, have to pay 50 per cent of this additional income as income tax. They would then have available only $500,000 to spend on consumption or to save and invest. If instead the corporation pays no cash dividends to its stockholders, it has the whole million dollars to invest internally. Such reinvestment will tend to raise the capital value of its stock. Stockholders who would have saved the funds if distributed can simply hold the stock and postpone all taxes until they sell the stock. They, as well as others who sell at an earlier date to realize income for consumption, will pay tax at capital gains rates, which are lower than rates on regular income.

This tax structure encourages retention of corporate earnings. Even if the return that can be earned internally is appreciably less than the return that the stockholder himself could earn by investing the funds externally, it may pay to invest internally because of the tax saving. This leads to a waste of capital, to its use for less productive rather than more productive purposes. It has been a major reason for the post-World-War-II tendency toward horizontal diversification as firms have sought outlets for their earnings. It is also a great source of strength for established corporations relative to new enterprises. The established corporations can be less productive than new enterprises, yet their stockholders have an incentive to invest in them rather than to have the income paid out so that they can invest it in new enterprises through the capital market.

A major source of labor monopoly has been government assistance. Licensure provisions, building codes, and the like, discussed above have been one source. Legislation granting special immunities to labor unions, such as exemption from the antitrust laws, restrictions on union responsibility, the right to appear before special tribunals, and so on, are a second source. Perhaps of equal or greater importance than either is a general climate of opinion and law enforcement applying different standards to actions taken in the course of a labor dispute than to the same actions under other circumstances. If men turn cars over, or destroy property, out of sheer wickedness or in the course of exacting private vengeance, not a hand will be lifted to protect them from the legal consequences. If they commit the same acts in the course of labor dispute, they may well get off scot free. Union actions involving actual or potential physical violence or coercion could hardly take place if it were not for the unspoken acquiescence of the authorities.

3. Private Collusion The final source of monopoly is private collusion. As Adam Smith says, "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."3 Such collusion or private cartel arrangements "are therefore constantly arising. However, they are generally unstable and of brief duration unless they can call government to their assistance. The establishment of the cartel, by raising prices, makes it more profitable for outsiders to enter the industry. Moreover, since the higher price can be established only by the participants' restricting their output below the level that they would like to produce at the fixed price, there is an incentive for each one separately to undercut the price in order to expand output. Each one, of course, hopes that the others will abide by the agreement. It takes only one or at most a few "chiselers" -- who are indeed public benefactors -- to break the cartel. In the absence of government assistance in enforcing the cartel, they are almost sure to succeed fairly promptly.

The major role of our antitrust laws has been to inhibit such private collusion. Their main contribution in this respect has been less through actual prosecutions than by their indirect effects. They have ruled out the obvious collusive devices -- such as the public get-together for this specific purpose -- and have therefore made collusion more expensive. More important, they have reaffirmed common law doctrine that combinations in restraint of trade are unenforceable in the courts. In various European countries, the courts will enforce an agreement entered into by a group of enterprises to sell only through a joint selling agency, committing the enterprises to pay specified penalties if they violate the agreement. In the United States, such an agreement would not be enforceable in the courts. This difference is one of the major reasons why cartels have been more stable and widespread in European countries than in the United States.

APPROPRIATE GOVERNMENT POLICY
The first and most urgent necessity in the area of government policy is the elimination of those measures which directly support monopoly, whether enterprise monopoly or labor monopoly, and an even-handed enforcement of the laws on enterprises and labor unions alike. Both should be subjected to the antitrust laws; both should be treated alike with respect to laws about the destruction of property and about interference with private activities.

Beyond this, the most important and effective step toward the reduction of monopoly power would be an extensive reform of the tax laws. The corporate tax should be abolished. Whether this is done or not, corporations should be required to attribute to individual stockholders earnings which are not paid out as dividends. That is, when the corporation sends out a dividend check, it should also send a statement saying, "In addition to this dividend of -------- cents per share, your corporation also earned -------- cents per share which was reinvested." The individual stockholder should then be required to report the attributed but undistributed earnings on his tax return as well as the dividend. Corporations would still be free to plough back as much as they wish, but they would have no incentive to do so except the proper incentive that they could earn more internally than the stockholder could earn externally. Few measures would do more to invigorate capital markets, to stimulate enterprise, and to promote effective competition.

Of course, so long as die individual income tax is as highly graduated as it is now, there is strong pressure to find devices to evade its impact. In this way as well as directly, the highly graduated income tax constitutes a serious impediment to the efficient use of our resources. The appropriate solution is the drastic scaling down of the higher rates, combined with an elimination of the avoidance devices that have been incorporated in the law.

I'll cut this down if it's too much to be quoted...People should read the book even if some of his views went way too far into insanity about how smart people and how bad the government is.
 
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