You're in for a hell of a ride, provided you can get a group of people who are willing to help.
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Can Square save the Final Fantasy brand?
- Thread starter Averon
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You're in for a hell of a ride, provided you can get a group of people who are willing to help.
Manmademan
Member
Another good point. The 360 version of FFXIII got a lot of flack for exactly this...despite taking up three discs.
XIII-2? one disc, with most of the cutscenes done in engine..and it's a better game for it.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
I like Hamauzu's music. He's awesome. More stuff like Sigma Harmonics, please. <3
Ishimoto's really surprised me lately, though! I'd love to hear what he could do if he had a full orchestra at his disposal.
And I love Mizuta's work. It doesn't seem to be to everyone's taste, but I think it's fantastic.
Ishimoto's really surprised me lately, though! I'd love to hear what he could do if he had a full orchestra at his disposal.
And I love Mizuta's work. It doesn't seem to be to everyone's taste, but I think it's fantastic.
Yep. All of the games' artstyles worked well in their respective universes one way or another. I'm fine with them. I react more to the background art and gameplay systems anyway.
The dividing line between 8-scale sales and 13-scale sales has (almost) nothing to do with the game, and (almost) everything to do with hype and marketing muscle. SE will never be as strong in these as it was in the late '90s, just because it's a lot easier for Bioware or Bethsoft guys to schmooze with the journo circlejerk, and both they and the 18-35 male market are terminally confused between "archaic" and "what they played when they were teens".
The flipside of this is that neither of these caveats apply in continental Europe or SEA, which are probably enough to carry the franchise through until the new hip complaint is "overdone shooter elements" or "cliched dialog trees" and a SE or console exec decides to drop twenty mil slapping a hero's face on every six-pack of Pepsi sold that year again.
Ito's involvement probably wouldn't hurt either, but I'd be leery of relying too much on an old hand. Tanaka's involvement in 14 was a pretty disastrous mix of decent ideas rejected by the market precisely because he was an old Japanese luminary and thus perceived as "out of touch", and bad ideas SE gave a try anyway because he'd always been right before.
The flipside of this is that neither of these caveats apply in continental Europe or SEA, which are probably enough to carry the franchise through until the new hip complaint is "overdone shooter elements" or "cliched dialog trees" and a SE or console exec decides to drop twenty mil slapping a hero's face on every six-pack of Pepsi sold that year again.
Ito's involvement probably wouldn't hurt either, but I'd be leery of relying too much on an old hand. Tanaka's involvement in 14 was a pretty disastrous mix of decent ideas rejected by the market precisely because he was an old Japanese luminary and thus perceived as "out of touch", and bad ideas SE gave a try anyway because he'd always been right before.
Meccanical
Member
I'm listening to his Hamauzu's Sigma Harmonix stuff right now and I am completely blown away, particularly by this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3KV__pe4fE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3KV__pe4fE
part of the fun of certain things is exploitation!
i've never once pretended that the market isn't shrinking. but there will always be a niche for it.
the markets are never going to be as "even" as they once were. if you change final fantasy too much, the sales in japan will shrink.
Sohter.Nura
Member
All it needs is to make the games suck less :/ FF XIII was bad, XII was great IMO. XIV... lol?
The interest in FF XIII was low way before the game came out.
The interest in FF XIII was low way before the game came out.
After beating FFXIII and reading postmortems and all that crap, I think the only main problem with the game was that Square just couldn't get their development pipeline straight for a full current gen console game, and apparently still can't.
They admitted that they didn't have a clear idea of what kind of game they wanted to make until they started working on the demo, which was basically a corridor with some battles, and that's what the full game ended up being. The battle system may have been really good but that alone can't hold up a 50-hour game. FFXIII felt like something they had to cut down for cost and time. I think those problems are exclusive to current gen console hardware too, as I don't see any of Square's PS2, PSP, or DS games suffering from this. PS1 may have been the golden age of FF according to fans, but their PS2, PSP, and DS output is still very good.
FFXIII on the other hand was Square's very first internally-developed PS3 game, and FFXIII-2 - on which they got help from Tri-Ace, was only their second. Add to that the problems they're having with XIV and Versus XIII. It's the same problem the rest of Japan is dealing with. Hopefully they can get the Luminous engine in gear and it turns out to be as good a development tool for them as MT Framework has been for Capcom, same with FOX and Konami.
They admitted that they didn't have a clear idea of what kind of game they wanted to make until they started working on the demo, which was basically a corridor with some battles, and that's what the full game ended up being. The battle system may have been really good but that alone can't hold up a 50-hour game. FFXIII felt like something they had to cut down for cost and time. I think those problems are exclusive to current gen console hardware too, as I don't see any of Square's PS2, PSP, or DS games suffering from this. PS1 may have been the golden age of FF according to fans, but their PS2, PSP, and DS output is still very good.
FFXIII on the other hand was Square's very first internally-developed PS3 game, and FFXIII-2 - on which they got help from Tri-Ace, was only their second. Add to that the problems they're having with XIV and Versus XIII. It's the same problem the rest of Japan is dealing with. Hopefully they can get the Luminous engine in gear and it turns out to be as good a development tool for them as MT Framework has been for Capcom, same with FOX and Konami.
Meccanical
Member
Now when I'm doing the same thing for every damn battle with no variation.
Manmademan
Member
It's not that the "cartoony" style (and I refer to movement and animations when I say this) never work. they worked just fine in the PS1 era JRPGS, and to a lesser extent in PS2 era games. with the lack of detail, overexaggeration is actually necessary.
the problem comes with HD-era games when realistically drawn characters still behave in a cartoonishly exaggerated way.
sales in japan are shinking regardless. meanwhile, western markets are growing and have overtaken it. Again, do you tailor your games for the declining market? or the expanding one?
edit: and LOL at changing final fantasy too much. That franchise more so than any other is known for wildly changing art styles (look at VII/VIII/and IX), game play, concepts, and focus from one entry to the next. A western centric FF (should they make one) is in no danger of killing the franchise.
The Emperor
Member
That's not true at all
The interest in FFXIII was huge, didn't it have the highest Week 1 sales of an FF ever in the West?
The simple fact is the game failed to deliver in the eyes of most people...the word of mouth was poor and sales collapsed.
I still think the FFXIII trailers were awesome, especially the final trailer where Lightning shoots bullets at the screen at the end. It was all very epic & the premise of the game had masses of potential.
Years on now post XIII launch and the massive shroud of negativity surrounding it it's become easy to forget how people LOVED FFXIII's trailers.
FFXIII-2 actually never had trailers as good as FFXIII's.
i can only argue so much as ff8 & ff5 are my favorites in the series, and i already feel a bit biased~ ;(
Interest in XIII was high all the way. People wanted their next-gen FF game, they got it, albeit as a horribly written and designed corridor game. This was extremely disappointing for many.
Meccanical
Member
I always thought it was garbage that they were showing CG and nothing else...
definitely not forgotten about.
linko9
Member
As long as they keep coming up with innovative and interesting battle systems, I'll still consider FF to be an excellent franchise. Honestly I never care too much about the story in an RPG, and I know that's a major complaint (and a very valid one) that most people have about XIII.
The Emperor
Member
You may have.
But look at general youtube video comments of XIII's TGS or Final trailers or most forum posts.
People thought it looked fantastic was basically going to revolutionize JRPG's & whatnot and why wouldn't they. The trailers were MISLEADING (the TGS ones showed two towns which of course ended being "towns" in the sense of dungeon corridors in a town).
There was big interest for XIII because it looked like it had the potential to be awesome.
Manmademan
Member
Eh, it's coming. With the sales of FFXIII-2 the way they are, there's virtually no chance it keeps that name though.
edit: wait..now that I think of it, wasn't there a western dev working on some kind of (now canned) FF spinoff?
Yep. I want a mature storyline with mature characters.
Meccanical
Member
For mature people such as myself.
The Emperor
Member
Just wish for a good storyline.
Mature storylines can also be terrible and boring.
But a good story...... mature or not will always be a good story.
Augemitbutter
Member
i almost got XIII-2, but when i saw all those DLC i decided to wait it out. that's one problem.
the other is that i want the staff from V, VI and X to make a new game. let hamauzu and uematsu compose the OST 50/50 and all will be good.
the other is that i want the staff from V, VI and X to make a new game. let hamauzu and uematsu compose the OST 50/50 and all will be good.
"Versus" has always made it seem like a fighting game. it has been an issue since day 1.
Meccanical
Member
I still think that's dumb.
Manmademan
Member
yup. dollars to donuts it ends up with some inscrutable subtitle like dissidia 2 did
I honestly don't think corridor gameplay was the issue. Corridor customization, maybe, but the market loves their linear FPS maps and it's a good fit for the boss rush-style battles, which are probably one of the freshest spins on command battle the genre's seen (even if they are a mashup of SaGa and sped-up ATB that "could have" been done in the early '90s.) Hell, haven't trial-and-error dungeon forks been one of the big complaints about JRPGs for decades?
The Emperor
Member
The staff from X did just make XIII/XIII-2 unless you wanna combine the best members of those three games.
Would be a epic combo actually.
Augemitbutter
Member
that would be the best. i like the FFXIII battle engine and general tech + soundtrack for example.
Honestly, I blame Japanese corporate hierarchy and how incompatible it is with game development. As far as I understand, it is that the corporate higher-ups give orders and make decisions and the developers follow them. The overall mood is that the higher up on the corporate ladder you are, the more infallible you are. But it really makes those in charge much more vital to the process and that people who actually make the games often can't voice concerns. It also creates a huge disconnect between the corporate side and the development side. Capcom has this issue and it's really hurting them. This has been in place for a while now, but it really doesn't suit game development, especially now that it costs much more to make console games.
An end result is that games are released whether or not they're ready. See FFXIII and FFXIV.
Manmademan
Member
a lot of complaints about FFXIII were the lack of exploration (the "corridor" gameplay) as well as being locked into playing the game the way it decided it wanted to be played for waaaaaaay too long.
XIII-2 is much, much more open in terms of the crystarium and the environment. even if those environments (so far) are largely the same ones as in XIII, at least I have to option to backtrack, poke around for hidden items I might have missed, etc.
Actually Capcom is almost the one big Japanese publisher that's been able to get it together in terms of production and development with MT Framework, which has been an excellent engine.
Honestly, I think they just need to all play some of the RPGs the west has been putting out for a while. I never thought I'd say that, since I vastly, vastly prefer JRPGs to western ones, but I think it's still something they should do. They seem to be frantically trying to figure out how to stay relevant and keep taking cues from some really weird stuff. I saw them saying that XIII's corridors were like FPS games. That's just not where you should take your inspiration from if you're a Japanese developer trying to stay relevant. They need to see what's going on over here and really realize why our tastes are different.
I'm definitely not saying they should make a WRPG. Hell no. I don't want SE to make one of those, but they should take some cues. They really need to, for one, stop being so fucking obsessed with graphics. That way they can make a better and larger overall game. We don't need eye bleeding graphics. It just needs to look good enough, and SE's art direction is usually solid enough to hold things up. They need to definitely subdue the writing. You don't need weird time paradox crap and just over the top stuff every 3 seconds. You can have some over the top action stuff, because that's why I and a lot of others like JRPGs, but not every second needs to be packed with that. Ground the characters in reality first and then give them a bit of a flare.
They should also spread things out just a little bit. I do love a sprawling 50 hour main story epic, but maybe they should focus on giving 30 hours of main story epic so we can get some choices and other places to go for the rest of those 20 hours. And throw in a few choices. Don't go overboard with it, since they're still making JRPGs, but throw us a bone. People like choices.
As for battle system, I personally would love to see more old school turn based or ATB style stuff, but I know that won't win them any fans. I think a much more realized version of XII's sort of system would bring things into the modern day. Actually, I think a lot of XII would have been right up the alley of the west had it been done the way it originally was going to be. The character designs aren't offensively anime, and actually most of Yoshida's designs are at least moderately appealing to the west. The political nature of the storyline, and the way Matsuno's usually go would have also appealed. And if Basch was still the main character, I think the west would have embraced it more.
Really, I think Matsuno mixed with typical FF would really do wonders in the west. He has games that are open both in gameplay and in world, with deep, rich lore, and grounded plots. The problem came when the SE brass started shoehorning Vaan into things.
I'm definitely not saying they should make a WRPG. Hell no. I don't want SE to make one of those, but they should take some cues. They really need to, for one, stop being so fucking obsessed with graphics. That way they can make a better and larger overall game. We don't need eye bleeding graphics. It just needs to look good enough, and SE's art direction is usually solid enough to hold things up. They need to definitely subdue the writing. You don't need weird time paradox crap and just over the top stuff every 3 seconds. You can have some over the top action stuff, because that's why I and a lot of others like JRPGs, but not every second needs to be packed with that. Ground the characters in reality first and then give them a bit of a flare.
They should also spread things out just a little bit. I do love a sprawling 50 hour main story epic, but maybe they should focus on giving 30 hours of main story epic so we can get some choices and other places to go for the rest of those 20 hours. And throw in a few choices. Don't go overboard with it, since they're still making JRPGs, but throw us a bone. People like choices.
As for battle system, I personally would love to see more old school turn based or ATB style stuff, but I know that won't win them any fans. I think a much more realized version of XII's sort of system would bring things into the modern day. Actually, I think a lot of XII would have been right up the alley of the west had it been done the way it originally was going to be. The character designs aren't offensively anime, and actually most of Yoshida's designs are at least moderately appealing to the west. The political nature of the storyline, and the way Matsuno's usually go would have also appealed. And if Basch was still the main character, I think the west would have embraced it more.
Really, I think Matsuno mixed with typical FF would really do wonders in the west. He has games that are open both in gameplay and in world, with deep, rich lore, and grounded plots. The problem came when the SE brass started shoehorning Vaan into things.
Or... Just not mind-numbingly stupid or convoluted.
Oh, and dialogue not written by retards would be a nice plus.
Oh, yeah, it's definitely something people have been vocal about, I just think there's a lot of "wrpgs have choices, wrpgs are fresh and new to me, ff13 isn't fresh and new to me, ergo the problem with ff13 is a lack of choices" floating around and a hypothetical 15 with intricate, twisting maps would be just as panned.
I guess it probably helps that the vast majority of their titles are developed outside of Capcom, and that they aren't wasting time and resources on a game engine that is barely used (Crystal Tools). The major disconnect between the corporate side and the development side caused the whole fiasco with Inafune, Megaman, and a general decline in popular opinion of the company in general.
Square Enix has a similar issue in that the corporate side is inclined to produce and release titles in their major franchise regardless of whether it is ready or not.
linko9
Member
Maybe that's applicable for 14, but how to you explain 13's long dev cycle? Surely the higher ups didn't want it taking that long. And how do you explain Versus. And lets step outside of SE, and look elsewhere: Miyamoto has always said that he'll put a game out when it's done; "A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever." And don't anyone act like there aren't plenty of western games that aren't rushed out before they're done.
A thousand times this. They actually drove Matsuno away with their antics. This was a major loss for the company. And while Sakaguchi and Uematsu are generally hush about why they left Square Enix, I suspect it's for similar reasons.
It all started going wrong when they started overindulging in the franchise. It's a sure sign of creative bankruptcy and future decline (see: Megaman X-2 Zero Double Strike or whatever).
Final Fantasy X-2, the Final Fantasy VII compilation, Advent Children, remake after re-release after port after remake, Final Fantasy XIII 'multiverse', a billion titles announced for every platform, portable games with weird names like Dissidia 012: UNBROKEN (I know this doesn't really exist but would it surprise you if it did?)....
They should treat their mainline franchise more respectfully, like Dragon Quest. DQ still has incredible pull because every release is an event and every game has a lot of effort behind it (not that I particularly care for DQ).
The second cause is the general trend of Japanese developers seriously dropping the ball with the HD generation. Pretty much every HD entry in a major Japanese franchise was less well-received than its predecessor.
The brand has been significantly tarnished and in my opinion Square didn't really release any great game since 2006 (FF12), but they can still turn it around. They need to focus, cancel all their spinoffs and remakes and 'Versus' (what the fuck is that anyway). Just make a good, long, nice Final Fantasy XV. Less DBZ-style flashiness and more the unique aesthetics and care of the earlier games.
Final Fantasy X-2, the Final Fantasy VII compilation, Advent Children, remake after re-release after port after remake, Final Fantasy XIII 'multiverse', a billion titles announced for every platform, portable games with weird names like Dissidia 012: UNBROKEN (I know this doesn't really exist but would it surprise you if it did?)....
They should treat their mainline franchise more respectfully, like Dragon Quest. DQ still has incredible pull because every release is an event and every game has a lot of effort behind it (not that I particularly care for DQ).
The second cause is the general trend of Japanese developers seriously dropping the ball with the HD generation. Pretty much every HD entry in a major Japanese franchise was less well-received than its predecessor.
The brand has been significantly tarnished and in my opinion Square didn't really release any great game since 2006 (FF12), but they can still turn it around. They need to focus, cancel all their spinoffs and remakes and 'Versus' (what the fuck is that anyway). Just make a good, long, nice Final Fantasy XV. Less DBZ-style flashiness and more the unique aesthetics and care of the earlier games.
Cancel Versus?! WHAT?
All else aside, I'm pretty sure the Gooch left SE because he got "promoted" from producer to mascot.
In my opinion, if you put the current Square-Enix on timemachine back to the past, they probably would release Xenogears, Seiken Densetsu , SaGa, Chrono series as Final Fantasy spinoff.
1. Enough with so many Final Fantasy titles - I'm surprised they didn't make Bravely Default a Final Fantasy spinoff... probably a good sign. FF release used to be special, now it's just... another one?
2. Can we get back to steampunk medieval fantasy please.
3. Yeah, better writer.
1. Enough with so many Final Fantasy titles - I'm surprised they didn't make Bravely Default a Final Fantasy spinoff... probably a good sign. FF release used to be special, now it's just... another one?
2. Can we get back to steampunk medieval fantasy please.
3. Yeah, better writer.
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