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[charlequin]

The problems with Square Enix exist at a CEO level.

The problems with Square-Enix exist on every level. Just like getting rid of Nomura (a particularly dumb idea, given that he's far and away the most successful person at producing hits for the company these days) or getting rid of Toriyama (someone who was probably a valuable employee at one point who's just working above his pay grade now) won't fix anything on its own, getting rid of Wada won't either. The problems at SE don't emanate from the CEO; inasmuch as he's at fault for them, it's because he does too little.

Speaking broadly, the problem at Square-Enix is structural. There's very little in the way of staff development in place to create new project leaders with the skill necessary to make the products SE wants to make, and there's very little influence on people operating within existing teams to push them towards better development practices (or towards making things that Square-Enix as an entity would like to market and sell.) There's evidence that all of this is changing now, but it's all stuff that should've started changing years ago so in some ways it's a bit late to really work towards repairing their damaged brand.

Final Fantasy 1-6 sold approximately the same as Final Fantasy 7, and Final Fantasy 9 is the worst-selling offline FF on disc by a good margin. Even if roots were the answer, no one would approve it.

Well, I actually kind of agree that they should "go back to their roots" in the sense that they should look at their breakout hit (FF7) and try to emulate the philosophy of development that made it successful.

The problem, as I see it, is that said philosophy (presenting a rich, detailed fantasy world with broad appeal and incredibly audiovisual presentation) is very difficult to accomplish just in general, it's even harder to accomplish now with game budgets as huge as they are (and content development made as difficult as it is by increased visual standards), and it's even especially hard for a company like Square-Enix, whose development processes weren't even able to cope with that philosophy on PS2 (with FFXII) and certainly aren't well-equipped to do it now.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

I don't know why SE numbers their online versions. They should never be numbered entries.

Because they have no sense of brand-consistency and know that if they released them as spin-offs (as they should have been), they wouldn't sell as much. Basically, they're whores.

Is there anyone left who still thinks Versus should have XIII in its title?

While I wouldn't mind "XIII" to be taken out of the title, I'd be afraid of an actual fraction (or something equally insane) being shoved in there again instead.

EDIT:

After typing that, I think I'm all for taking that risk. I love bat-shit-insane WTF titles. They're almost always lol-worthy.

 

[Bossun]

Bring back fantasy. Cut off the pop-star androginous shit they have been making for years.

Mind you, the appeal of a new FF game is that it's gonna make the previous entry look better.

Like "Damn FF10 was shit, *play FF12*, well FF10 was good, FF12 was shit, *play ff13*, well I guess FF12 was good"

 

[CorvoSol]

The problems with Square-Enix exist on every level. Just like getting rid of Nomura (a particularly dumb idea, given that he's far and away the most successful person at producing hits for the company these days) or getting rid of Toriyama (someone who was probably a valuable employee at one point who's just working above his pay grade now) won't fix anything on its own, getting rid of Wada won't either. The problems at SE don't emanate from the CEO; inasmuch as he's at fault for them, it's because he does too little.

I see what you mean about how firing one guy won't fix all the problems, but I cannot see a single downside to firing Toriyama. The man brings literally no good things to the table anymore if, in fact, he ever did.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Bring back fantasy. Cut off the pop-star androginous shit they have been making for years.

I really don't understand how that of all things is a point of contention. You realize that if the story, writing, and gameplay are awful, replacing Vaan with some bald dude-bro is still gonna make the game suck right? I mean, XIII let you play as a no-nonsense, badass chick, and it was still a painful experience.

 

[Kagari]

call me sexist, immature and what you will, but the reality is the sales slipped because of the female characters and overall feminine presentation of the FF13 brand.

Pinks, purples, pink hair and pink logos and overly feminie characters like serah as the protagonist alienated a lot of buyers. Hardcore games sell to males, that's reality.

A lot of males can't get behind characters like this. Hell, a lot males would be downright "uncomfortable" purchasing a game like FF13-2.

As a female, even I thought the overuse of characters like Lightning and Serah was terrible, so it works both ways.

 

[The Emperor]

I see what you mean about how firing one guy won't fix all the problems, but I cannot see a single downside to firing Toriyama. The man brings literally no good things to the table anymore if, in fact, he ever did.

That's absolutely false.

He directed FFX-2, XIII & XIII-2.

Forget the plots & perhaps even forget XIII if you want to.

Both X-2 & XIII-2 are extremely competent games that are "no jokes" in terms of directing or developing.

Firing Toriyama would be a terrible move.

Simply keeping him away from the franchise would be a good one.

 

[Infinite]

Release Type-0 in North America on 3DS and Vita.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

That's absolutely false.

He directed FFX-2, XIII & XIII-2.

Forget the plots & perhaps even forget XIII if you want to.

Both X-2 & XIII-2 are extremely competent games that are "no jokes" in terms of directing or developing.

Firing Toriyama would be a terrible move.

Simply keeping him away from the franchise would be a good one.

And let's not forget VII's Wall Market-section. Wasn't he also a big key-player in FFX? I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The man is capable of amazing stuff. He just absolutely shouldn't be given free reign.

 

[Perfo]

As a female, even I thought the overuse of characters like Lightning and Serah was terrible, so it works both ways.

And me too agree on this. FFXIII-2 it's really too "girly" for FF's main audience. I didn't have any problem with it obviously, but I think it makes sense pointing that out as a possible wrong direction for it.

 

[Bossun]

I really don't understand how that of all things is a point of contention. You realize that if the story, writing, and gameplay are awful, replacing Vaan with some bald dude-bro is still gonna make the game suck right? I mean, XIII let you play as a no-nonsense, badass chick, and it was still a painful experience.

I like lightning a lot because except for her hair color ,which wasn't really that bad, she was normal. She was smart and cool headed. Not a cliche, or just someone acting on impulsion.
And that was maybe the best part of FF13. So yeah characters do influence what you think and the game's experience.
Overall FF13 had pretty good characters, except for a few mistakes. It was a good casting.

And even though FF12 was good, I truly believe that if Balthier had been the main character, as it was planned, I would have like the game even better.

But I'm not debating this with you. This is subjective.

Edit : To clear misunderstanding when I say "pop-star shit" I'm not only talking about appearance and clothes. I also think of the character way of acting, thinking, talking, moving...

I'm pretty sure that if I had played God of War with Vanille as the main character that would have ruined the game for me.

 

[Infinite]

I really don't understand how that of all things is a point of contention. You realize that if the story, writing, and gameplay are awful, replacing Vaan with some bald dude-bro is still gonna make the game suck right? I mean, XIII let you play as a no-nonsense, badass chick, and it was still a painful experience.

I don't see how the characters wouldn't influence things like writing and story.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

FFXIII would have been a lot better if Snow, Sarah, and Hope weren't in the game. It still would have been a nonsensical story, but a lot of the cringe-worthy scenes would disappear with the absence of those characters.

 

[Bossun]

FFXIII would have been a lot better if Snow, Sarah, and Hope weren't in the game. It still would have been a nonsensical story, but a lot of the cringe-worthy scenes would disappear with the absence of those characters.

Exactly. But you forgot Vanille

 

[MechaX]

That's absolutely false.

He directed FFX-2, XIII & XIII-2.

Forget the plots & perhaps even forget XIII if you want to.

Both X-2 & XIII-2 are extremely competent games that are "no jokes" in terms of directing or developing.

Firing Toriyama would be a terrible move.

Simply keeping him away from the franchise would be a good one.

So to further your argument, you say to forget the one of the bigger contested games he had a role in (FFXIII and its mess of a development cycle), hand-wave the underlying motivation behind the creation of this topic as a quality issue instead of something bigger than that (XIII-2's low worldwide sales in comparison to XIII's), and also forget that the other main role that Square Enix seems to be putting Toriyama in is not one he's that good at (as a writer, especially considering his works for Non-FF games like Front Mission Evolved and 3rd Birthday, both of which are regarded as travesties in their own rights in the writing department).

Yeah, he did have some good joke ideas for FFVII, but putting him in such a position outside of his directorial and writing roles even outside the FF franchise would essentially be constructive termination anyway.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Exactly. But you forgot Vanille

She was pretty airheady, but I don't recall a whole lot of moments where I shook my head in embarrassment during her scenes. I may have just forgotten. Also, she was pretty integral to the overall story, whereas Snow, Sarah, and Hope could have been cut without losing too much.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

I like lightning a lot because except for her hair color ,which wasn't really that bad, she was normal. She was smart and cool headed. Not a cliche, or just someone acting on impulsion.
And that was maybe the best part of FF13. So yeah characters do influence what you think and the game's experience.
Overall FF13 had pretty good characters, except for a few mistakes. It was a good casting.

And even though FF12 was good, I truly believe that if Balthier had been the main character, as it was planned, I would have like the game even better.

But I'm not debating this with you. This is subjective.

Edit : To clear misunderstanding when I say "pop-star shit" I'm not only talking about appearance and clothes. I also think of the character way of acting, thinking, talking, moving...

I'm pretty sure that if I had played God of War with Vanille as the main character that would have ruined the game for me.

I don't see how the characters wouldn't influence things like writing and story.

FFXIII would have been a lot better if Snow, Sarah, and Hope weren't in the game. It still would have been a nonsensical story, but a lot of the cringe-worthy scenes would disappear with the absence of those characters.

I'm not referring to how the character acts or what he or she says, but merely how effeminate they are. (In terms of looks and some body language I guess.) Changing these superficial aspects to something more masculine isn't gonna add or detract anything from a game's story. The rest all comes from good writing. With that in mind, I can understand a complaint like "Make more believable and relate-able characters with depth." But not "This male character looks too much like a chick so it automatically sucks." As annoying and awful as Vanille, Hope and Snow were in XIII, (and Vaan in XII), if they all didn't act like idiots (or like a blank waste of space) they would have been just fine.

 

[RagnarokX]

All they need to do is get in a time machine and stop Sakaguchi and Uematsu from leaving.

 

[RpgN]

As a female, even I thought the overuse of characters like Lightning and Serah was terrible, so it works both ways.

I have to disagree on this.

FFXIII-2 didn't have Serah as main, it was both Serah and Noel, it should cater to both genders. FFXIII had different characters and they pretty much shared screentime equally. Sure SE is positioning Lightning as the face of both FFXIII and XIII-2, but that is misleading if you have played them.

One of the reasons why I enjoy FF games more than many games, is because it caters to both genders. Usually FFs have guys leading with very strong secondary roles by females. There are fewer FF games that has girls leading.

There are more than enough games that cater to guys entirely, maybe 70% or more in this whole industry. Part of why FF is popular is that it's more neutral and why it has many passionate female fans as well.

 

[astroturfing]

yes, make a 1080p/60fps Final Fantasy in the vein of VII-IX (think world map, beautiful 2D backgrounds etc) as a downloadable title on every possible platform for $15-30.

who wouldn't buy it?

 

[Kyoufu]

FFXIII would have been a lot better if Snow, Sarah, and Hope weren't in the game. It still would have been a nonsensical story, but a lot of the cringe-worthy scenes would disappear with the absence of those characters.

And Vanille. Can't stand her.

 

[Meccanical]

I don't see how the characters wouldn't influence things like writing and story.

The way a character looks has shit all to do with the writing and story.

You think Mother 3 is sugar and rainbows just because the characters look cartoony?

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

The way a character looks has shit all to do with the writing and story.

You think Mother 3 is sugar and rainbows just because the characters look cartoony?

Said what I was trying to convey, but much more concisely. Thank you!

 

[Perfo]

who wouldn't buy it?

I would buy it, but I'd be pissed off. Retro-game must be a thing of the past, I want a new Final Fantasy that doesn't live in nostalgy, and X, XI, XII and XIII did great in doing so by offering something clearly distinct, authentic and different everytime.

Now... XIII-2, that's another story. Probably together with X-2 is my least favorite title in the whole series.

 

[astroturfing]

I would buy it, but I'd be pissed off. Retro-game must be a thing of the past, I want a new Final Fantasy that doesn't live over nostalgy, and X, XI, XII and XIII did great in doing so.

well it wouldn't have to be full on retro, cashing in on nostalgia.. it could just be the surface, to keep the production costs and production time reasonable.

they could still include a brand new combat system, unorthodox characters (i wish lol) and whatnot to keep it fresh.

 

[Perfo]

well it wouldn't have to be full on retro, cashing in on nostalgia.. it could just be the surface, to keep the production costs and production time reasonable.

Final Fantasy is about presentation, top-notch presentation. And this happens from 25 years (yes, even FFIV, V and VI had gorgeous graphics). You go on removing that too from it, and it's going to become irrelevant even faster than now.

 

[Anticitizen One]

A quality high profile reboot is the only way to save the Final Fantasy brand now

 

[Fdkn]

Final Fantasy is about presentation, top-notch presentation. And this happens from 25 years (yes, even FFIV, V and VI had gorgeous graphics). You go on removing that too from it, and it's going to become irrelevant even faster than now.

So a new Final Fantasy must have A+ graphics, music, story and gameplay to be considered a good FF, but Mass Effect is 'the RPG' using super-ugly UE3, photoshop-fest and not being really a RPG at all.

Not fair, huh.

 

[SolidSnakex]

A quality high profile reboot is the only way to save the Final Fantasy brand now

Every new game is essentially a reboot.

 

[GillianSeed79]

I think they can save it. For me, I'd like a simplified battle system and a simple archetype/hero's journey story in possibly a fantasy setting. One of the problems with recent FF's with me hasn't been the setting per se, but the lack of "magic" that older games seem to have. If you have a good story, it doesn't really matter if it's set in the future or traditional fantasy.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

I think one of the major slip ups was Square-Enix taking so long to develop and release FFXIII. Prior to the start of this gen, I'd think you'd be hard pressed to find any one who wasn't impressed by the first screens that they showed. By the time it came out, it no longer looked so bleeding-edge if you will. Contrast that with FFX, which came out early in the PS2's life cycle and was a technical showcase at the time if you will for consoles.

Where I think they really slipped up though was that there was a relative lack of popular HD twin JRPGs at the start of this gen. With a lot of Western developers starting to focus on consoles they filled a niche or void so to speak. For a lot of console-only owners, this gen was probably the first time that a lot of were exposed to WRPGS that were once only released on PC. Other than the likes of KOTOR and Morrowind, I can't recall WRPGS being as popular as they are now on consoles last gen.

I'm in the minority in that, while I really didn't like FFXIII, looking back probably the main reason was I really didn't like the battle system, which is probably the most universally praised aspect of it.

Not sure exactly how many others feel this way, but for someone like me, it's not just XIII. If that was the case, I'd chalk it up as one dud entry and start hyping up for the next one. But, X-2, XI, XII, XIII, XIII-2 and XIV have all had complete game ruining aspects for me to the point where they are unplayable. After giving me total home-runs with FFVI through FFX, I couldn't fathom them fucking up so badly for so long. Versus is the last chance I'm giving them. If it's another massive let-down, I'm done.

 

[jett]

What I think is that Square doesn't make this franchise for me anymore. Or maybe I've outgrown it. In either case, their current artistic vision borders on being abhorrent. If they could somehow get away from their hideous pop-inspired character designs with ridiculous fashion it'd be the first step in the right direction to make the likes of me back to liking this crap.

 

[Nirolak]

call me sexist, immature and what you will, but the reality is the sales slipped because of the female characters and overall feminine presentation of the FF13 brand.

Pinks, purples, pink hair and pink logos and overly feminie characters like serah as the protagonist alienated a lot of buyers. Hardcore games sell to males, that's reality.

A lot of males can't get behind characters like this. Hell, a lot males would be downright "uncomfortable" purchasing a game like FF13-2.

As a female, even I thought the overuse of characters like Lightning and Serah was terrible, so it works both ways.

And me too agree on this. FFXIII-2 it's really too "girly" for FF's main audience. I didn't have any problem with it obviously, but I think it makes sense pointing that out as a possible wrong direction for it.

I feel the biggest issue is not that it's feminine, but that it's teenage feminine.

Like, Titanic could be considered a pretty feminine movie, but it was very conceivable that someone who wasn't putting up posters of Hanson and David Duchovny in their room would actually want to watch it.

A Hugh Grant movie on the other hand, no so much.

Games like God Of War run into this same issue, but in reverse, especially in Europe.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

I really wonder when SE are going to use that licence-to-print-money that is the back catalogue of games they have?

Given that I cant think of any other dev that has been assailed from fans so much for a remake of certain games, I really dont understand the reluctance from them.

Other devs are going back and remaking titles that came in the PS2 era, why wont they?

They just clearly do not like money. It is the only explanation for what they do these days.

 

[Jigsaw]

A quality high profile reboot is the only way to save the Final Fantasy brand now

isn't that what they were aiming for with type-0 ?

 

[kameha5th]

The new Final Fantasy XV is coming out soon.

 

[Nirolak]

isn't that what they were aiming for with type-0 ?

That sold less than their other PSP games in Japan, and probably won't sell much anywhere else (assuming it ever gets localized).

 

[Big Papa Husker]

This man (and company) can save Final Fantasy... Collaboration between Square and Mistwalker!

 

[Admiral Bone to Pick]

This man (and company) can save Final Fantasy... Collaboration between Square and Mistwalker!

Yeah, the Mistwalker games have been great. And such smash hits too.

 

[Anticitizen One]

Every new game is essentially a reboot.

I know but nobody really cares about the series anymore. They can announce FF XV tomorrow and people will just go "meh". They have also slaped the FF name on tons of crap in the past ten years further diluting the brand. I think dumping all the side games and cancelling the spinoffs and just releasing a new game titled "Final Fantasy" will attract far more attention and if it's a great game it will save the franchise.

 

[jett]

You need to rectify that. It's fantastic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmDt-EbFslo

Pretty much unrelated to this thread, but from checking a related video there I just found out that all the CG in the PC version of FFVIII looks a heck of a lot better.

 

[icecream]

Yeah, the Mistwalker games have been great. And such smash hits too.

Considering how much BD and LO sold worldwide on just one console? Compared to FFXIII-2 on two? Yeah, actually they may have been.

But the Gooch himself couldn't save the FF brand with a new game either. It's like what others were saying earlier, it's fundamentally a structural and management problem. It's not that S-E can't still make a good FF game, it's that they keep on stumbling over themselves each time they make one due to inefficiencies, misappropriation of people and resources, target demographics, and the like.

 

[Rahxephon91]

I know but nobody really cares about the series anymore. They can announce FF XV tomorrow and people will just go "meh". They have also slaped the FF name on tons of crap in the past ten years further diluting the brand. I think dumping all the side games and cancelling the spinoffs and just releasing a new game titled "Final Fantasy" will attract far more attention and if it's a great game it will save the franchise.

Nobody really cares yet we have countless threads about the series from people completely passionate about it.

To say nobody cares sounds pretty wrong. Who knows how people will react when 15 is announced, but I very much doubt it will be just people going "meh".


QUOTE=icecream;35930989]Considering how much BD and LO sold worldwide on just one console? Compared to FFXIII-2 on two? Yeah, actually they may have been.

[/QUOTE]
?. Based on just Japanese sales, XIII-2 has already sold better then LO and BD.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I know but nobody really cares about the series anymore. They can announce FF XV tomorrow and people will just go "meh".

Oh come on, that's just ridiculous. People always act like it's the end of a series simply because they didn't like the last game. MGS2 apparently killed Metal Gear, and then MGS3 came along and all was well. But now that series is apparently dead again because of MGS4. RE5 damaged the series rep according to many people, but then they go crazy over RE6's trailer.

It's going to be a big deal the second that Square announces the next mainline game in the series.

 

[Admiral Bone to Pick]

Considering how much BD and LO sold worldwide on just one console? Compared to FFXIII-2 on two? Yeah, actually they may have been.

But the Gooch himself couldn't save the FF brand with a new game either. It's like what others were saying earlier, it's fundamentally a structural and management problem. It's not that S-E can't still make a good FF game, it's that they keep on stumbling over themselves each time they make one due to inefficiencies, misappropriation of people and resources, target demographics, and the like.

Not too knowledgable on the sales of either LO or BD but I don't remember either of them passing a million or being one of the best selling games of any month in NPD.

 

[Meier]

You're not the majority, especially in Japan.

Considering Japanese sales are down significantly too, I'm not sure this is accurate.

They do need to do a complete overhaul of the series.

 

[charlequin]

I feel the biggest issue is not that it's feminine, but that it's teenage feminine.

I honestly think we need more recent market information to be sure, but overall I agree with you. In general, there isn't really a negative market reaction to things like Tomb Raider (with a female protagonist, but one who's tough and presented as strongly competent.) Historically I don't think female-centric RPGs have done poorly. And even based on the reaction to XIII specifically, I think Lightning was largely received well as a protagonist.

I definitely think that in general age is a bigger issue than gender. Gamers in the West are much more inclined towards clearly "adult" protagonists. Games with adult heroes (Lost Odyssey, say) have received effusive praise for their casts, sometimes out of keeping with what they would otherwise proportionately earn; games with young heroes, and especially young heroes who are perceived as whiny, unconfident, or otherwise weak, tend to be heavily criticized regardless of what else they have going for them. FFXIII-2 is really stepping in the soup here, because it replaces the XIII cast (which, for all its problems, at least had some characters people really liked) with two annoying, weak teens.

 

[Kyoufu]

This man (and company) can save Final Fantasy... Collaboration between Square and Mistwalker!

Well I'm not really convinced. He hasn't done anything significant since he spent all of Square's money on a crappy movie.

 

[charlequin]

If they could somehow get away from their hideous pop-inspired character designs with ridiculous fashion it'd be the first step in the right direction to make the likes of me back to liking this crap.

So, theory-testing here: if you boil down the XII cast to Ashe, Basch, Fran, and Balthier, how do you feel about it?

Well I'm not really convinced. He hasn't done anything significant since he spent all of Square's money on a crappy movie.

Frankly, Sakaguchi contributed far more to the Final Fantasy series and Squaresoft as a whole managerially (at least in his latter days) than he did as a designer or director. I think a lot of the company's latter-day problems can be traced in part to poor staff development and team management after he left. (Not that bringing him back to work on games now would be useful in any way.)

 

[MechaX]

FFXIII-2 is really stepping in the soup here, because it replaces the XIII cast (which, for all its problems, at least had some characters people really liked) with two annoying, weak teens.

It's such a shame when considering that in actuality, Noel really does rebut the "whiny, weak, teenage anime protagonist" image through his actions. He has his angst moments, but he usually trucks along and reminds oddly optimistic for being in a really depressing circumstance. But of course, that message would definitely be lost amidst SE's presentation of him ("hey, look at this teenage anime hero with dumb clothes!")