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Can Square save the Final Fantasy brand?
- Thread starter Averon
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Crash Station
Member
Jesus christ dude, you think that is pedo? You would have a heart attack if you entered the seasonal anime threads.
GillianSeed79
Member
If you slapped Phantasy Star V on that Star Ocean pic I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, which isn't a bad thing since I really want a Phantasy Star V.
Edit: That one character looks like Shion with angel wings though.
Edit: That one character looks like Shion with angel wings though.
Pureauthor
Member
Is the FF7 example supposed to be good or bad? Barring Vincent, most of their clothing is pretty restrained and makes sense in their jobs and setting.
fuzzyreactor
Banned
shut up
Nobody is saying that it's pedo simply because of the anime style.
When it comes to Star Ocean 4, well you be the judge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm_J0jjNibM
Rahxephon91
Banned
That's all Prince is saying.
I played SO4. There were many "cringe-worthy" scenes - even to someone as tolerant of that stuff as me.
But the poster who called it pedophilia did so based only on the picture as he obviously didn't play it. He said it just because of the art style.
Manmademan
Member
...yes, it was. And S/E leadership stepped in and shoehorned the Vaan and Penelo characters into the game.
Ask yourself "why would they do that?" and you're halfway to identifying the problem.
PrinceOfApathy
Banned
It's exactly what I thought about Lightning. She really is one of the best, if not the best, character they've made so far.
She was mature, smart, cool headed, she thought think through and kept a clear mind while being optimistic. It was easy for me to relate to her because she wasn't a cliché and she was exactly what I expected someone trying to save the world would be.
She had a goal, to save her sister, and she kept that goal until the end. She was involved in the story.
When I see vanille, which is suppose to be the cheerful and optimistic, I just cringe. It's translated in japanese society into hoping on one leg, waving your arms and talking like a twelve years old high-pitched girl while being oblivious to your surroundings and having unrealistic reaction to happening events.
Hope was just too inhumanly naive and blind.
And when I see Cloud and Squall I can't relate to them, they're just too dark and emo for me. I can't imagine someone being like that, I just find it idiotic. Not to say that they were not involved in the story. They have no goals, they just got mixed-up in the events and ended saving the world without even wanting to. Then they act all blasé and emo about it.
To top it all, here comes the deus ex machina where we learn that they are in fact related to everything and it was their destiny.
If they start making characters like Lightning everytime they could really appeal to a more mature and western audience.
GillianSeed79
Member
Back on topic. I would kill for No. 1 here. In fact DQVIII reminded why I really liked FF1 back in the day.
Rahxephon91
Banned
No. Because what you are saying is dumb.
ff8's designs are simplistic relative to the other games, they aren't nearly as overdesigned as everything from 10 on up. Nothing excessive about Squall, Rinoa etc design or clothing.
Perhaps in the original picture posted, he picked up on the catgirl's character design. If it is true that he's making wild assumptions based on the anime art style even if they're true in the case of SO4, then that's his problem.
I think the point that he was trying to make is that it is becoming increasingly common to find younger looking characters that are sexualized like in SO4 and Hyperdimension Neptunia and that he doesn't want any of it in Final Fantasy. Or at least, that's how I feel. And yes, I do like some anime so don't feel like I'm attacking anime or anything.
It most certainly does
This x1000.
Concerning Hope, teenagers are usually inhumanly naive and blind, but I agree that they could have handled him better.
Conciliator
Banned
It's supposed to be bad. What did they do for a living again? I'm willing to listen to a defense.
PrinceOfApathy
Banned
I don't see FF7s clothe designs to be too far out of the ordinary besides Vincent and even he is not as bad as some of the potpourri sprinkled trash coming from Japan these days. Everyone looks relatively normal.
Barret is from the slums all he's wearing is a waist coat, boots and a pants, Aeris is in a normalish dress. The character designs aren't even remotely out there.
Meccanical
Member
Bad...?
There's nothing wrong with the way they look .
Except maybe Cait Sith but he's a freaking stuffed animal robot thing the hell do you want.
Barrett, a terrorist/freedom fighter who looks like he's dressed for action.
Tifa, a bartender who is dressed kind of risque like a lot of bartenders do.
Aeris, a flower girl from the slums who is dressed rather modestly.
Red XIII... eh... well...
Yuffie, a thief/"ninja" who is dressed how a lot of girls her age might think a "cool" girl would dress.
Cid, an engineer/pilot who is dressed how one might expect one to dress, goggles and all.
The point is, a lot of the "utility" aspect of these character designs MAKE SENSE for what these characters do. It's not random asymmetric pants because it looks cool or stupid shit like that that the series picked up with FFX.
Crash Station
Member
An image of little anime girls fully dressed and not doing anything isn't pedo.
I'm under the impression that most people who have an issue with the character design don't like the oversized swords and spiky hair that became a bigger focus with the FFVII compilation.
well that's from when Square started being really shitty, so it's kind of expected that they'd take an almost down-to-earth fantasy design and amp it up to animu levels of crazy.
I always found XI to be totally retro minus the online part. Closer to pre-VII then even IX at times. It has FFV Omega IN 3D!!!
The Meracle character in SO4 is far from fully dressed. Her standard outfit is a small bikini. In the example video I posted earlier, there are sexual implications involving the character.
Cait Sith, kweena and the likes are cool. They are not realistic at all, they are not supposed to be human so the weirder they are the more magical/cool it is. After all that it's just a matter of taste for these kinds of characters.
FFIX clothes were good too. Not too much and pretty representative of their occupations.
Meccanical
Member
So does FF XIII-2, that counts for jack all.
Pureauthor
Member
Cloud - Mercenary for hire, former elite squad member (or so he thinks). Dresses in loose clothes that allow him freedom of movement, particular around the arms. Some armour, metal or otherwise, to showcase the warrior aspect.
Barret - Slum dwelling terrorist/freedom fighter. Clothes relatively barebones and notably worn.
Tifa - Brawler/Barmaid. Clothes give both freedom of movement and are risque.
Aerith - Flower girl, not used to combat. Dressed in long skirt that would restrict movement, but unbuttoned to counter and allow her more freedom of movement after she starts adventuring.
I mean, these all make sense.
Xenoblade says hi.
Crash Station
Member
I'm not talking about the game itself. I won't deny it having a bit of pedo. I'm purely talking about the image which isn't risque at all.
Rahxephon91
Banned
Xenoblade says hi what? Hi to incredibly low sales and obscurity? Yeah I guess its saying hi to that. Way to miss the entire point.
This is true. While he was referring to an image that has since been replaced (I don't know if it was significantly different), you'd have to look for it in the current image to find it.
Only because FFXI made it cool to do so. Just how they get down.
CuckFupertino
Banned
As a self-proclaimed Final Fantasy fanatic and expert, it pains me to say with a high degree of certitude that Final Fantasy as a blockbuster RPG franchise is "done," at least in the west. Didn't Famitsu give FFXIII-2 a 40/40? There's your answer right there: 13-2 is everything Japanese fans of the series are looking for, and that is obviously Square's primary market.
Why does XIII-2 fail to resonate with fans in the west? For a number of reasons that I won't get into here, but just look at all the other RPGs that came out last year, + Kingdoms of Amalur & Mass Effect 3 this year. And no, don't argue that we should compare FF only to JRPGs. Most gamers don't know the difference between a WRPG and a JRPG, and in my mind they really shouldn't. "JRPG" is sort of a cop-out in my mind for antiquated mechanics and cheesy dialogue. Xenoblade, an amazing game, is a good RPG. It stands on its own as a good RPG, regardless of whether its "western" or "Japanese." The latest FF games cannot compete with games like Witcher 2, Skyrim, Mass Effect, Dragon Age or even Dark Souls. It's irrelevant in context of those games.
Square, and the Japanese industry in general, have been very reluctant to change this generation. They won't figure out how to fix Final Fantasy until its too late. What I'm actually more afraid of is when Square gets desperate... which I don't think we've seen yet.
It pains me to say this, but fans (fanatics in my case) of the series need to step back and appreciate what we've been given, and maybe accept that it is the best we'll ever get. There will never again be a Final Fantasy 7 - of course unless they remake FF7 (as terrible of an idea as it is, I promise it will happen in a desperate cash grab at some point).
Why does XIII-2 fail to resonate with fans in the west? For a number of reasons that I won't get into here, but just look at all the other RPGs that came out last year, + Kingdoms of Amalur & Mass Effect 3 this year. And no, don't argue that we should compare FF only to JRPGs. Most gamers don't know the difference between a WRPG and a JRPG, and in my mind they really shouldn't. "JRPG" is sort of a cop-out in my mind for antiquated mechanics and cheesy dialogue. Xenoblade, an amazing game, is a good RPG. It stands on its own as a good RPG, regardless of whether its "western" or "Japanese." The latest FF games cannot compete with games like Witcher 2, Skyrim, Mass Effect, Dragon Age or even Dark Souls. It's irrelevant in context of those games.
Square, and the Japanese industry in general, have been very reluctant to change this generation. They won't figure out how to fix Final Fantasy until its too late. What I'm actually more afraid of is when Square gets desperate... which I don't think we've seen yet.
It pains me to say this, but fans (fanatics in my case) of the series need to step back and appreciate what we've been given, and maybe accept that it is the best we'll ever get. There will never again be a Final Fantasy 7 - of course unless they remake FF7 (as terrible of an idea as it is, I promise it will happen in a desperate cash grab at some point).
One problem with your Famitsu thing; 13-2 sold TERRIBLY in Japan.
Xilium
Member
That game is just XII with larger area maps (and somehow, less stuff to do in them).
Meccanical
Member
But..but.. it's PRETTY.
Nah seriously it's a good game, but way overrated.
Kind of like every FF ever.
Rahxephon91
Banned
Why? because one instalment? It's like people here refuse the idea of a comeback. Lets look at Deus Ex. A series that had one apprantly bad instalement and yet now it's comelty relevant again and on the rise thanks to HR. Is there a reason why FF can't bounce back if say Versus and 15 are great games?
Famitsu doesn't mean crap and the game didn't light the charts on fire either there. There's no actual proof here. XIII and XIII-2 are also not exactly what Japanese fans want either.
And you typed a lot, but didn't exactly say why why a FF game can't compete with other rpgs? You say it will be too late for them and yet XIII-2 already came out. It already is a sure sign that they are getting the message.
Cloud wasn't emo in the original FF7 at all, any image you have of him that way is due to the recent depictions, i.e. Advent Children or KH.
Say what you will about modern FF designs, but Lightning/Seven's bike shorts have to be one of the most reasonable pieces of clothing in FF.
Most of FF13's designs were fine and fit the characters, which makes the criticisms of that even more incorrect.
Sazh - Drab, vaguely uniform-like jacket and boots, which fits his work as a pilot.
Snow - A fairly ragtag combination of an overcoat and hat. Doesn't totally fit the beach where NORA was based, but it fits the theme of him being an underground rebellion who doesn't have cash for fancy clothes and just threw something on. It's sort of ironic that he's dressed for winter while the rest of NORA would fit fine on a beach.
Hope - A upper middle class teenager wearing a colorful jacket of Cocoon's style. His design is pretty boring, comparatively.
The only strange designs were Vanille and Fang...which fits fine given that they're from another country from a billion years ago. It'd make LESS sense if they looked like the rest of the cast.
Xilium
Member
Kinda off topic (or maybe it isn't) but iirc, Meracle was 16. I know people like to latch on to 18 as the magic number but that mostly only applies to the porn industry. 16 is by far and away the most common age of consent across the globe, so hardly pedo material (never mind teenagers not being pedophile material in the first place).
I just don't like that word being thrown around as commonly as it is. Also, keep in mind that the target demographic for these games in Japan are teenagers.
I like Lightning as a character, but I didn't find her to be a particularly good portrayal of a female character. She's really cool and stuff, but not relatable. If Lightning was a male character instead, it would've fit perfectly fine.
I can relate to Serah (FFXIII-2) so much more. She's not weak or frail or waiting to be saved either. I find her to be one of the best strong female leads in video games. But I haven't finished the game yet, so I don't know if it gets worse.
I don't know if that scares people away. That it's feminine or whatever.
"But she looks six."
I can relate to Serah (FFXIII-2) so much more. She's not weak or frail or waiting to be saved either. I find her to be one of the best strong female leads in video games. But I haven't finished the game yet, so I don't know if it gets worse.
I don't know if that scares people away. That it's feminine or whatever.
"But she looks six."
I really shouldn't let these accusations of pedophilia bother me so much. But it's brought up in pretty much every thread that has any picture with anime character styles.
Aside from backlash from FFXIII, I'm under the impression that everyone in the west who bothered to actually play XIII-2 had a much more positive reaction to the game itself (and not the story), citing it as a step back in the right direction.
While it doesn't have as much attention in the west compared to say, Skyrim, comparing the sales of XIII and XIII-2 points to bad word of mouth from the first game as the reason that it sold significantly less.
Keep in mind I'm not attacking anime as a whole. Arbitrary numbers attached to characters are used only to avoid legal complications and negative publicity. What matters is the age that she appears, and that is undoubtedly very young. I'm sorry, but she's pre-pubescent in appearance. So yes, the "But she looks six." argument is valid.
GillianSeed79
Member
I wonder how much FFXIII itself had an impact on FFXIII-2's sales performance or if it's the game itself? Granted, I don't know much about the game but on the surface it doesn't exactly appear to be a new cocept.
I clearly remember when FFX-2 came out and the general consensus from critics and general FF fans was that it was actually a pretty fun game if I recall. Didn't it do decent sales numbers too or is my memory off?
Granted this was like 10 years ago. I remember being initially put off by the concept, but found that I wanted to return to the world of FFX. What I found was a tongue in cheek Charlies Angels vibe with that game and the costume change stuff was a fun battle system.
I clearly remember when FFX-2 came out and the general consensus from critics and general FF fans was that it was actually a pretty fun game if I recall. Didn't it do decent sales numbers too or is my memory off?
Granted this was like 10 years ago. I remember being initially put off by the concept, but found that I wanted to return to the world of FFX. What I found was a tongue in cheek Charlies Angels vibe with that game and the costume change stuff was a fun battle system.
FFXIII is the culprit. It's not easy selling a sequel to a poor game, especially when the sequel looks unappealing with two annoying kids as your only party members.
Either Toriyama is completely out of touch or he somehow thinks people would want to buy his games.
Far as I can see, most people simply don't care that much. There's a new FF? Lets buy it, play it, and then wait for the next one. Its the Internet that gets all obsessive about things like this and then tries to extrapolate their personal views into doom and gloom.
The brand still sells better than other jrpgs, and a lot of other games in general. They'll keep making them as long as they're profitable.
The brand still sells better than other jrpgs, and a lot of other games in general. They'll keep making them as long as they're profitable.
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