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Can we spend some time to talk about how awesome Sin & Punishment: Star Sucessor is?

While this game gets mentioned on Wii recommendation threads, I don't think it gets enough love.

To me it isn't just one of the greatest Wii games, it's one of the greatest games ever period, and it represented what I consider to be the pinnacle of the rail shooter genre.

Before I begin explaining why the game is so great, I'll start of with one of the biggest reasons to why it is so great, the controls. The Wii controls tend to get a lot of love/hate depending on the game. Skyward Sword, Punchout!, and Super Mario Galaxy are some examples of games that people would have preferred to use traditional controls as oppose to pointer/motion controls. This isn't the case for Sin & Punishment: Star Successor. The controls are universally praised. The Wii Remote provides quick and accurate aiming allowing the rail shooter genre to soar due to it no longer being held back by slow and muddy directional input devices. The fact that the Wii Remote and Nunchuck are held separately makes the came accustomed to long play sessions as the controllers can be comfortably held what ever ways players want even during tense situations.

Now onto the game itself. Sin & Punishment: Star Successor is a brilliantly designed game. The first area starts of a little slow to accustom the player the control and game design, after the first area though much of the game begins to look like this:
PmIOW6q.jpg

6Vrx8J7.jpg


Pics just don't do the game justice. The game simply grabs you for a rollercoaster ride that just doesn't stop. Wave after wave of enemies and their projectiles keep coming toward you. Much of this is possible due to the controls. As I said before the controls allow for quick and precise aiming. This results in the game being able to throw faster and tougher enemies at the player.

But the challenges that really stand out are the boss battles. Treasure has a knack of developing some of the best boss battles of all-time, and this game is no exception. Manny of the bosses are very memorable both in style and in execution such as Pacifire, Snapper Keeper, Hibaru Yaju, etc. But who really stand out to me is Ariana Shami.
hX7FblN.png


When people talk about challenging bosses they often talk about Ornstein and Smough or Senator Armstrong. Personally though, Ariana Shami surpassed either of them to me (especially on hardmode). Took many retries but I eventually beat her and found the battle to be very satisfying.

The final reason what makes this game stand out is the sheer variety of it. I just don't mean environments but the game itself. While game like say Kid Icarus: Rising are well made, most of these other rail shooters feel more like shooting galleries as the player almost always just moves forward while enemies pop up. This is not true with Sin & Punishment: Star Successor. The game takes place in a full 3D environment as the character regularly twists and turns and interacts with the objects around them. The first boss makes this very apparent as the character moves all over the place during the fight. Not only that but the game also often switches to a sidescrolling 2D mode where the game plays not too different from Gunstar Heroes.

8pCxPA1.jpg


In short, Sin & Punishment: Star Successor is an incredible game that deserves much more love. It was one of the best game of the previous generation and I feel that it should get more recognition. Truly a game that was worthy as a send off to the legendary developer Treasure. Anyone else agree?
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
There's something about this game that says "video games" to me, in a way that few games do.

Perhaps its my generation and identity as a 90s console gamer, but that kind of high concept sci-fi anime scenario, married to top-tier arcade action gameplay, seems like it makes for one of the most archetypically pure "video games" ever made. It's definitely the properly evolved version of classic Treasure. It feels like the 2009 version of Gunstar Heroes.

It's also one of the few, the only times, that the Wiimote and nunchuck were used to create what is definitely a core game. It is a direct refutation to all the derision around GAF in the Wii's early years of it being useless make-believe "waggle". No, there is nothing innately casual about the input method of the wiimote. It's just that the business model of the Wii encouraged casual family fun. We could have had a lot more core games from this device if we as a society decided to.

It's one of my favourite games. Now that I think about it, it might be in my top 10.
 
I haven't finished it yet but it is indeed a joyously (is that a word?) fantastic game. Difficult but immensely satisfying and just a to play.

One of the reasons I love my Wii U so much is that I completely missed out on Wii gems like this first time around.

I need to get myself some fresh Wiimote batteries and find the time to play some more.
 

GenG3000

Member
The levels drag on a lot and there is something wrong with some hitboxes (like in the Street Fighter scene or the Gryphon boss). I loved the controls, the 3D-2D changes in gameplay and the bosses, but the levels themselves should have been cut in lenght by half at least. An arcade game shouldn't last more than 1-2 hours and this game was close to 5 hours with repeated setpieces.
 
I believe that having movement and aiming disconnected from each other resulted in a game that was mechanically weaker than the (imo) top games in the genre (Panzer Dragoon Series, Planet Harriers), not unlike how Shock Troopers, Pocky and Rocky, and Outzone are much better games than the entire dual-stick shooter genre (combined and doubled, if I'm being honest).

I find that the risk/reward of managing your attack (aiming) and defense (moving) make for a much more interesting and challenging game, mechanically.

I also tend to agree with the above poster that it was too long and the pacing was off for this style of game.
 

Eolz

Member
I agree with both OP and the poster above.
It is honestly the best shooter on rails mechanically, but it feels a bit too exhausting rather than too long.
The Iwata Asks about this game is really interesting btw. Perfect evolution of the first one.
 

@MUWANdo

Banned
The levels drag on a lot and there is something wrong with some hitboxes (like in the Street Fighter scene or the Gryphon boss). I loved the controls, the 3D-2D changes in gameplay and the bosses, but the levels themselves should have been cut in lenght by half at least. An arcade game shouldn't last more than 1-2 hours and this game was close to 5 hours with repeated setpieces.

You're supposed to treat each level as its own "game", essentially. A lot of modern 3D action games are the same way for a bunch of different reasons and while I don't much like it, I do understand that AAA arcade-length games are deader than dead and I accept that this is a compromise that has to be made.
 
It's a masterpiece, and pretty much undeniably the strongest original game on the Wii. I can't think about this game and not think about just how phenomenal the last bosses (Hibaru and Deko) are on hard mode.
 
"You're supposed to treat each level as its own "game", essentially. A lot of modern 3D action games are the same way for a bunch of different reasons and while I don't much like it, I do understand that AAA arcade-length games are deader than dead and I accept that this is a compromise that has to be made."


I feel like the solution here would be to take the Guardian Heroes approach with a ton of branching paths. That way you still have the tight pacing of a coin-op game with the amount of content and replayability people "expect"

Though, I am of the opinion that a well made score-based game already has an inherently high amount of replayability.
 

mrmickfran

Member
Perfect control scheme. This game is one of the reasons that I will continue defending the Wii.

Treasure's best game by far.
 
I believe that having movement and aiming disconnected from each other resulted in a game that was mechanically weaker than the (imo) top games in the genre (Panzer Dragoon Series, Planet Harriers), not unlike how Shock Troopers, Pocky and Rocky, and Outzone are much better games than the entire dual-stick shooter genre (combined and doubled, if I'm being honest).

I find that the risk/reward of managing your attack (aiming) and defense (moving) make for a much more interesting and challenging game, mechanically.

I also tend to agree with the above poster that it was too long and the pacing was off for this style of game.
Wow, I disagree with pretty much everything you said. I also think you're judging the game by what it's not, rather than what it is, and even then your assertions are questionable. The fact that it's the one "core" game that took advantage of the freedom and precision of the pointer control mixed with maneuvering your character freely in the third person is a large part of what elevates it to the top of the genre. I may even like it better than Panzer Dragoon Zwei, which I previously considered the gold standard.

There are a greater variety of patterns and scenarios precisely because movement isn't tethered directly to aiming. The multitasking element the split introduces is the opposite of being "mechanically weaker" imo. And even then, you have melee attacks which are tethered to your character's location and more powerful, but leave you exposed to direct attacks. It's a really smart and unique dichotomy, and it stands out even more because there's none of the cursor dragging of analog or lifting and re-positioning or a keyboard and mouse set up. Aiming is immediate and precise. What could feel more direct than pointing and aiming? I'm honestly perplexed how a more layered, nuanced, precise and varied control set up like that could even be construed as somehow inferior, particularly when the entire game is perfectly balanced around it.

I also think you're dead wrong on pacing. It's a pitch perfect meshing of arcade sensibilities level to level with the depth of a console game when taken as a whole. There are scripted sections which move at the same pace regardless of what you do (just like the Panzer Dragoon series), but there are also a lot of scenarios that progress based on your own speed and skill. Dispatch those enemies fast, the game is going to move fast. If you think it drags, get better? The the game also demands uninterrupted hot streaks for high level play. It's not as though there's a lot of down time where you're just putzing along. Again I'm bewildered because I found it more varied and replayable than most games in the genre. And FYI, there are still sections that play out differently depending on how skilled you are.

I personally consider it one of Treasure's best, alongside Gunstar Heroes and Gradius V. It's an amazing gift that I'm not even sure "core" gamers deserved based on its horrible sales. Nonetheless, I'm grateful for it, and consider it one of the best games last gen, and one of the top games in the genre, easily for a lot of the reasons you think it's inferior (i.e. not just a rehash of your genre favorites). And yeah, I'm pretty passionate about it. Amazing, amazing game that was made against incredible odds, and one of the crowning jewels of Iwata's legacy imo. I don't know that anyone but a passionate former developer in that position of authority would have green lit such a blatantly niche game and extended the resources to make it as robust and polished as it is.
 

danmaku

Member
Like everything else Treasure did, it's and amazing game on paper but it never grabbed me. I don't think I ever reached the end of the game. It looks great but it's just not fun to play.
 

Mechazawa

Member
It's one of the greatest games ever made and I can never stop singing praises for it.

That music.

Those bosses.

That final level.

uuUUuuuuggghhhh.

RIP Treasure.
 

sphinx

the piano man
I think I am just not cut for this kind of games, I played on easiest difficulty and I wanted it to be over the whole time. Good I guess, but not for me.

I did love that one level with a jumping lion in a dessert-like scenery, (that did happen, right? not sure if I remember correctly).

It reminded me of graograman from the Neverending story, which was a very nice thing, that redeemed the game for me, in a way.

 

Agent X

Member
It is indeed an awesome game, and one of the finest in the Wii library. Despite not being "high-definition", the visuals could still stand toe-to-toe with hardcore action games available on PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 at that time.
 

MrDoctor

Member
Pics just don't do the game justice. The game simply grabs you for a rollercoaster ride that just doesn't stop.
No, "it grabs a hold of your dick and won't let go until it's done with you."

...not unlike how Shock Troopers, Pocky and Rocky, and Outzone are much better games than the entire dual-stick shooter genre (combined and doubled, if I'm being honest).
I don't believe I've ever heard of Outzone. If it's on the same level of the other titles mentioned, then I have an incredible new game to discover.
 

sprsk

force push the doodoo rock
Ahhhhhhhhhh I was just thinking about making this thread! Easily one of my favorite games of all time. Was my GOTY two years in a row. Just straight up masterpiece.

Oh yeah I remember writing that.
 

Justinh

Member
I bought this game a few months ago, and I think I bought the first game on the Wii Virtual console, too. I still haven't gotten around to playing it though. I think I was on a Panzer Dragoon/Star Fox/Crimson Dragon kick at the time.

Actually I think I did try it, although with a standard controller and thought it was alright, but I need to get back in there with a Wiimote+nunchuck.
 

Lernaean

Banned
One of the best games i ever played as well. Treasure at its finest. I also agree that it's one of the few games so much fit for motion controls.
I'd love to see an HD remaster of it, if not another sequel.
 

MrDoctor

Member
Ahhhhhhhhhh I was just thinking about making this thread! Easily one of my favorite games of all time. Was my GOTY two years in a row. Just straight up masterpiece.

Oh yeah I remember writing that.
He doth appear! I am legit shook!
 

jay

Member
This is a great game but I do think the ground combat from the original is something this could have used.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
A damn great game, the original S&P was my favorite N64 game so I was ecstatic when I heard Treasure was making a sequel. It definitely lived up to my expectations, the controls are perhaps the greatest showcase of the Wii pointer capability and the boss fights are incredible. Though I do agree the levels tend to drag on a tad long (especially the volcano stage) and some of the hit detection in the close-up combat parts is a bit iffy. Still, easily one of the top Wii games, if not, games of that whole generation.
 

Drac84

Member
One of my favourite Wii games. It beat the crap out of me, but was incredibly satisfying to finish.
 

Llyranor

Member
Best Wii game.

My 2nd favorite game last gen after Bayonetta.

One of the best action games ever.

Perfect controls.

This should have been the inspiration for Star Fox Zero.

RIP Treasure ;__;
 

Regulus Tera

Romanes Eunt Domus
Dude you have no idea how much I love this game



It's the gamiest game I played on the Wii that actually justified the pointer. It's such a natural setup that I was actually legit sad when I heard Nintendo didn't straight up copy it for StarFox Zero. In fact, their retreading on motion controls as a whole this generation has been very weird.
 

Regiruler

Member
You know what would have made this game better? Having to look down at the gamepad screen to aim.

What a pitifully misguided attempt to direct a thread praising a game to shit on a completely different game, made by different people, that isn't even out yet, in order to appear "cool".

Star Fox and S&P play absolutely nothing alike, for one, scondly the shift in view makes sense given that your "character" is bigger and ergo the first person would give you substantially more information than the third person, and thirdly you don't even need to look down to aim for 90% of cases (many of which are avoidable).
 

Celine

Member
What a pitifully misguided attempt to direct a thread praising a game to shit on a completely different game, made by different people, that isn't even out yet, in order to appear "cool".

Star Fox and S&P play absolutely nothing alike.
Amen.
 

Nerrel

Member
What a pitifully misguided attempt to direct a thread praising a game to shit on a completely different game, made by different people, that isn't even out yet, in order to appear "cool".

Star Fox and S&P play absolutely nothing alike, for one, scondly the shift in view makes sense given that your "character" is bigger and ergo the first person would give you substantially more information than the third person, and thirdly you don't even need to look down to aim for 90% of cases (many of which are avoidable).

Chill out. I was just expressing frustration at how Starfox is turning out after being reminded of how great this game played again.

To say they're absolutely nothing alike is a little hyperbolic. The main difference is that S&P is more focused on targeting while SF is more focused on piloting, but there are many sequences of piloting a flying character through obstacles in SS. If you were to replace Isa with an Arwing, you'd be hard pressed to say one game wouldn't feel an awful lot like the other at times.

Sin and Punishment 2 controls perfectly. The original was clunky due to having digital character movement on the right side of the controller, fighting against intuition, but the Wii remote allowed for separation between character and reticle movement in a way that was completely natural and intuitive. It solved a problem that dual analog controllers couldn't overcome. In that way, Star Successor made a great control template for a Starfox game with separate piloting and aiming, and Miyamoto even wanted to do just this for the new game. The remote had proven to be an incredibly effective way of doing it. I think the scheme he chose instead was more of an attempt to utilize the gamepad than to actually enhance the gameplay.

You can say whatever you want, but splitting the aiming and character movement between two screens only increases the delay between looking at your character/vehicle and your cursor. When both are on once screen, moving your eyes between them is instantaneous- you can target an intense swarm of enemies and dodge a dense cluster of obstacles at once. Having to look down at the pad to perform intense aiming tasks will reduce your ability to pilot the ship. And if you don't have to use the aiming screen 90% of the time, then why is it worthwhile? It's a huge drain on the processing power of the system and results in very disappointing visuals, not to mention a rough looking framerate from the gameplay we've seen.

Being able to see in first person may help you avoid a problem that Sin and Punishment rarely had where the cursor became confused about which object or enemy was being targeted at different depths/distances in 3D space, but it was a minor issue (as you yourself said, the pad would help 10% of the time). I just don't see the advantage of the gamepad, and most hands on impressions have confirmed that it's just as awkward as it looks. The Wii remote scheme from S&P would have allowed for separation of aiming and piloting that would have been just as effective, but without the steep learning curve, terrible strain on the system, or any delay in your perception of the action.

Maybe a bit of a sidetrack, but I consider it relevant since Sin and Punishment 2 was wildly successful with its IR controls. I can't imagine a better control scheme for a rail shooter type game. Hopefully Starfox Zero still includes the remote scheme from its Wii development as an alternative.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Sin and Punishment 2 controls perfectly. The original was clunky due to having digital character movement on the right side of the controller, fighting against intuition, but the Wii remote allowed for separation between character and reticle movement in a way that was completely natural and intuitive. It solved a problem that dual analog controllers couldn't overcome.


You can change the controls for S&P1 - when I play I personally prefer using the D-pad to move and the analog stick to aim the cursor, where you grip the left and middle grips on the N64 controller (probably the only N64 game with this setup).
 

Nerrel

Member
You can change the controls for S&P1 - when I play I personally prefer using the D-pad to move and the analog stick to aim the cursor, where you grip the left and middle grips on the N64 controller (probably the only N64 game with this setup).
That definitely sounds better than default, but even with the full dual analog in Star Successor the controls are still really clumsy, like patting your stomach and rubbing your head. It only really works well with Kachi's autotargeting.

The game probably used the full potential of IR aiming better than any other Wii title. RE4 would be a contender, but the game wasn't designed around such fast aim. S&P 2 was, and is a lot crazier as a result of it. Iwata asks revealed that they even had to redesign the game at one point since it was developed to be difficult with a GC controller but ended up really easy when using a remote.

None of the top 20 scores that I saw in the SS leaderboards were ever anything but a Wii remote and nunchuk. One would expect maybe one Gamecube controller from a series purist, but no. The Wii remote was empirically superior to dual analog in that game.

The game itself is a hell of a lot of fun, but I'd agree that it's too stressing for its own good. I managed to get to #1 on the leaderboard on a few levels (mostly easy mode, which is a normal game's "hard"), but it was often gut-wrenching to keep that level of intensity up over 20 minutes of play. One mistake at the end and the combo multiplayer is lost before the boss bonus- the entire thing is a waste. It's brutal. I'd have been more inclined to keep perfecting and replaying if some of the courses were half the length.
 
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