Goddamn people had to repeat "Kylo was severely injured, emotionally distressed, and half trained" for literally several hundred pages in spoiler thread and we still got this argument?
uncelestial said:
The Force Awakens rifts off more than just A New Hope cinematographically, it does off the whole of the original trilogy.
There was a quote I once read and I'm paraphrasing, that audience cannot accept too much or too little change. Too much and it is considered too radical, jarring and not true to it's origins, too little and it will be considered uninspired, samey and boring. Unfortunately for me personally TFA is easily in the latter camp
Rey hears the force exists and in an hour of her life passing just decides to use the same ability. Please help me contain my sense of wonder at how impressed I was.
Rey using the mind trick completely cheapened it to me. I remember when we were introduced to it when Obiwan used it in ANH. He explains to Luke that the force can have a powerful effect on the weak minded. We get a feeling that Obiwan is a really powerful guy and that the force is a mysterious thing he is well trained in. A literal wizard. Luke listens with an expression on his face of a student being taught, but nothing more is said of it. Obiwan is later killed by Vader and Luke eventually realizes he will have to face him, and he is beaten but spared by Vader himself even though he'd believed himself to be a Jedi and thought he had trained for it.
Time passes and we see Luke arrive in RoTJ at Jabba's palace, in a cloak. The cloak and black outfit gives us the image of both Obiwan and Vader and you immediately felt like he was more powerful. We don't know what he's been doing in between but all the sudden he is carrying himself with more confidence. When guards approach him they are rendered helpless without Luke even touching them. He speaks to Fortuna in a familiar way and Fortuna simply obeys. We realize, though it hasn't come up since the first film, that now he has even learned old Ben's mind trick. These are moments we start to get a feel that Luke has become a real Jedi at that point. He is doing what once he couldn't even understand and with apparent ease. We watched him evolve into what we'd been shown through Kenobi into a real Jedi and possibly a match to even Vader.
Rey hears the force exists and in an hour of her life passing just decides to use the same ability. Please help me contain my sense of wonder at how impressed I was.
Dang, catching up, this turned into Bobby Roberts Has a Meltdown: The Thread.
For a group of people so unimpressed with almost everything it really doesn't take much to send you guys reeling, full speed, into total hyperbole and chest-clutching, vapors-catching "well I never"s
The meltdowns have occurred primarily in response to me, or directly AT me. At least one weird kid got banned for it.
Yes, Bobby. It's the children who are wrong.
Well it's hard to explain, but you being completely oblivious is key.How is this even supposed to work as a joke response
Are you serious?How is this even supposed to work as a joke response
Anyway yes: You're wrong. Kids suck at discovering their shitty, largely empty opinions are busted. They get upset and flail at me for it.
What do you want me to do about that
This is exactly what I would expect you to both think and say.Of this threads long, interesting, collected cast of characters, the idea I'm playing "the oblivious" one is pretty fuckin' ridiculous, though.
lol Rey beat a hostile trained lightsaber sith (whatever) having never turned it on before. And no, staff fighting and sword (lightsaber) fighting are very different, all without having a Jedi master whispering in your ear.
Mind trick only having seen it once. Reading a hostile trained force user's mind - should not have been possible, they are trained to protect their mind.
Telekinesis against a trained force user.
She's obvious some sort of force savant, well beyond Luke and Anakin in munchkinness. All without any training.
To be fair, depending on how you view the past lore you won't see it as much of a jump, but myself, and other fans, it was a jump too far. It broke the rules.
For a group of people so unimpressed with almost everything it really doesn't take much to send you guys reeling, full speed, into total hyperbole and chest-clutching, vapors-catching "well I never"s
The meltdowns have occurred primarily in response to me, or directly AT me. At least one weird kid got banned for it.
Then again, considering people's relationships with analysis here, the notion that you're misreading (probably willfully) a thing and overreacting (badly) to it shouldn't seem all that implausible either, right?
Maybe someone will make a 10 minute video to share and suddenly it'll all make sense.
Are you serious?
Sure there's granualty but if your acting like someones opinion is wrong based on an inherently subjective matter then some one has clearly jumped shark into shear nonsense.
Sure you may not agree with an opinon and majority educated people said subject also disagree then obviously feel free to point on such.
But to act like an absolute authority on it sounds like something has gone wrong along the way unless your not actually being serious.
Absolute authority on matters such as this does not exist. Hell absolute authority on plenty of accepted scientific facts are can be murky so this is a bridge way too far.
This is exactly what I would expect you to both think and say.
C'mon, Bobby, don't go out like this fam.
Lucas' Star Wars movies feel timeless, naive, romantic, innocent, all good qualities for a fairytale space opera.
I think you forgot that Lucas made the prequels.
No, I'm including those too.
She doesn't just 'decide' to use it. Kylo gets into Rey's head using the Force to retrieve the map. He underestimates her and she fights back, learning some other ways she can use the Force in the process.
You're right, difficult skills you just heard about that take years of training can often take two attempts ... come on now lol."It's not like she perfected the technique on her first try either."
This is never established anywhere ahead of this scene and comes off as a cheap and lazy way of just giving a character powers, and it is handled very poorly. Are we saying she witnessed him using mind tricks in this vision and then just comprehended how they work, its applications, and then she does just decide to try it out five minutes later ... My, what specific and convenient information to acquire instead of anything else in his mind from his entire life, just then, with no pretext, and just in time to use it to escape. This is not 60's Batman. We're just intended to buy that she figures out how to defend against a skill she's never even imagined or faced, not only resist but then turn it on it's own user, overpower his mind and then scroll through his mind and read his force powers in a total of 30 seconds ?
You're right, difficult skills you just heard about that take years of training can often take two attempts ... come on now lol.
I'll forgive them if they have a narrative reason for her to be so proficient, she's literally a savant. So she better be a reincarnation of Anakin that retains "memory" on how to use the force or simply the force incarnate like The Ones.
It's almost comically absurd. This is a site where totally fine films like The Dark Knight Rises and Rogue One are "trash". Modern classics like Boyhood, Moonlight, and Fury Road are "overrated".
But don't you dare besmirch the good name of Speed Racer. Dear god, not Speed Racer!
This is never established anywhere ahead of this scene and comes off as a cheap and lazy way of just giving a character powers, and it is handled very poorly. Are we saying she witnessed him using mind tricks in this vision and then just comprehended how they work, its applications, and then she does just decide to try it out five minutes later ... My, what specific and convenient information to acquire instead of anything else in his mind from his entire life, just then, with no pretext, and just in time to use it to escape. This is not 60's Batman. We're just intended to buy that she figures out how to defend against a skill she's never even imagined or faced, not only resist but then turn it on it's own user, overpower his mind and then scroll through his mind and read his force powers in a total of 30 seconds ?
You're right, difficult skills you just heard about that take years of training can often take two attempts ... come on now lol.
Time passes and we see Luke arrive in RoTJ at Jabba's palace, in a cloak. The cloak and black outfit gives us the image of both Obiwan and Vader and you immediately felt like he was more powerful. We don't know what he's been doing in between but all the sudden he is carrying himself with more confidence. When guards approach him they are rendered helpless without Luke even touching them. He speaks to Fortuna in a familiar way and Fortuna simply obeys. We realize, though it hasn't come up since the first film, that now he has even learned old Ben's mind trick. These are moments we start to get a feel that Luke has become a real Jedi at that point. He is doing what once he couldn't even understand and with apparent ease. We watched him evolve into what we'd been shown through Kenobi into a real Jedi and possibly a match to even Vader.
This is getting ridiculous now.
The film SHOWED us what was going on. Clearly. We saw Rey being mentally tortured, we saw the moment she realised she could tap into Ren's mind... and then when she tried to use it on a stormtrooper, it took her a few tries.
And this was after a scene where they set up Ren's mastery of it.
So...
Set up
Subversion of set up
Pay off.
I'm sorry if it's somehow objectionable to you because Rey is a "female masturbatory power study", but it's not TFA's fault if you object to really crystal clear conveying of set up, escalation and pay off.
Honestly, little in this thread convinces me that there's not a sexist as Hell undertone to people getting angry over Rey being a force natural. Tony Stark built this in a cave with a box of scraps is fine, but a woman can't be good with the force...
Yikes. Rey's gender has nothing to do with any of the problems we've been discussing,
This is never established anywhere ahead of this scene and comes off as a cheap and lazy way of just giving a character powers, and it is handled very poorly. Are we saying she witnessed him using mind tricks in this vision and then just comprehended how they work, its applications, and then she does just decide to try it out five minutes later ... My, what specific and convenient information to acquire instead of anything else in his mind from his entire life, just then, with no pretext, and just in time to use it to escape. This is not 60's Batman. We're just intended to buy that she figures out how to defend against a skill she's never even imagined or faced, not only resist but then turn it on it's own user, overpower his mind and then scroll through his mind and read his force powers in a total of 30 seconds ?
You're right, difficult skills you just heard about that take years of training can often take two attempts ... come on now lol.
Ah, to be able to say that sincerely. I wish I lived in your world.
No kidding lol. I'm not speaking of real world logic of course, but the rules or systems they had already set in place regarding how everything works in that universe. Like when Vader started hurling objects one after another at Luke he really struggled to fight back and was made to look like an amateur because he had never had to defend against something like that before. He did not just stop all the objects in mid air. Why ? Because Yoda told him the force was not for attack. The thought of someone using it that way likely never occurred to him. That's a sort of logic built in, despite it being a fantasy setting.Trying to apply logic to Star Wars. Now there's a hole I don't want to go down.
Star Wars brings out the anger it seems.
Y'all know that's a path to the dark side, right?
Fucking Siths the lot of ya. Always dealin' in absolutes.
Yeah it is really safe, obviously. And ultimately bland and forgetable. But I think if they focused the whole movie on the Oscar Issac character it could've been really good.
Other new characters suck and shouldn't be the focus of a whole movie. I couldn't bring myself to watch it second time. Just turned off the blu. Really boring movie.
Having her do that after "a scene where they set up Ren's mastery of it" is more indicative that she should not be equipped to defend against something like that. It also undermines him even further as a threat to her if he is someone who has mastered something yet is being countered by someone who doesn't even understand what it is.
Hahaha. 1000 x this.
For two years we had a monthly TDKR thread where the OP pretended not to know how GAF thought about it and opening with: Is it me or was TDKR really bad? And then 200 replies of people agreeing with him (which was probably the reason the thread was made)
And on the opposite end you have the LTTP: Speed Racer topic, with the OP saying: This film didn't get really good reviews....but I think it was a delight! Am I the only one? And again 200 replies of people agreeing with him (which was probably the reason the thread was made)
This is getting ridiculous now.
The film SHOWED us what was going on. Clearly. We saw Rey being mentally tortured, we saw the moment she realised she could tap into Ren's mind... and then when she tried to use it on a stormtrooper, it took her a few tries.
And this was after a scene where they set up Ren's mastery of it.
So...
Set up
Subversion of set up
Pay off.
I'm sorry if it's somehow objectionable to you because Rey is a "female masturbatory power study", but it's not TFA's fault if you object to really crystal clear conveying of set up, escalation and pay off.
Honestly, little in this thread convinces me that there's not a sexist as Hell undertone to people getting angry over Rey being a force natural. Tony Stark built this in a cave with a box of scraps is fine, but a woman can't be good with the force...
Why though?
I think this is where a lot of these sorts of back & forths break down a lot of the time: People can't explain why something like that "shouldn't" be happening. Not even that you don't like it, that it shouldn't be?
Basically - why do you make this way harder than it needs to be? And it's not just a Star Wars thing, it's a movie watching/understanding narrative thing in general? Why spend so much time trying to figure out ways to make it much more complicated than it actually is? Than it's being directly shown to you as being?
Can you explain why the hero of a story entitled "The Force Awakens" shouldn't be able to match up with the villain?
If your answer doesn't have anything to do with arcs, characterizations, themes, tone, and has everything to do with rulesets and powerlevels, you're not really watching the movie, you're rule-laywering an RPG you don't get to play.
So why, dramatically, shouldn't Rey be able to see into Kylo's mind as Kylo is forcing himself into hers, intuit use of the Force from that, and use it against him? Why shouldn't she learn from that experience (because you keep trying to frame it as her seeing something as opposed to actually feeling and being involved directly in it) and apply what she's learned?
Ren apparently doesn't think it's out of bounds because there is a line of dialog from him that specifically tells another character she's going to be doing that. Because there's no storytelling reason why she shouldn't.
Can you explain why the hero of a story entitled "The Force Awakens" shouldn't be able to match up with the villain?
If your answer doesn't have anything to do with arcs, characterizations, themes, tone, and has everything to do with rulesets and powerlevels, you're not really watching the movie, you're rule-laywering an RPG you don't get to play.
Because like most of the other things she did, it comes about entirely in one scene and we see very little done to attain it when it was previously used as a unique point of Ren's behavior as a character.So why, dramatically, shouldn't Rey be able to see into Kylo's mind as Kylo is forcing himself into hers, intuit use of the Force from that, and use it against him?
Rey hears the force exists and in an hour of her life passing just decides to use the same ability. Please help me contain my sense of wonder at how impressed I was.
Well I guess I will set aside the mild irony that you're placing a ruleset on my answer.
Because like most of the other things she did, it comes about entirely in one scene
maybe rey is just the most powerful force user ever