I don't like either movie. But between the two, I prefer AoU. Aside from the confrontation between Thor, Iron Man, and Captain America, Avengers felt pretty forgettable.
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Captain America: Civil War Review Thread
- Thread starter Jigorath
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I don't like either movie. But between the two, I prefer AoU. Aside from the confrontation between Thor, Iron Man, and Captain America, Avengers felt pretty forgettable.
Marvel wrote too many checks and Audi is lagging with filling all the shill orders. Give it time.
Audi is slow with their assembly
Allow me! I have seen both in the past two days, so all of it is very fresh in my head.
For the record: first time seeing in theaters, Avengers>>>AoU. But on rewatch it's the opposite.
- The opening scene, up to the title "Avengers" is so boring that every time I want to watch that movie and I remember this part it gives me pause. I don't know what it is about that car chase but it is boring as all hell.
- The recruitment phase (especially Hulk) just isn't any fun to watch anymore.
- Why is Thor a complete idiot when we are first introduced to him? He acts like a complete fool. Culminating in him trying to murder Captain America when he attempts to make Thor their ally.
- Thor overall in this movie is pretty damn bad.
- Thor v Iron Man and Thor v Hulk just aren't nearly as exciting as the first time.
- The entire Hellicarrier part is pretty lame with a few good quips thrown in.
- Captain Americas suit.
- They still didn't know that Captain America could be cool, so they have him in an insanely lame gunfight and still make it so he can't hit anyone.
- The New York fight is fun but the battle droid way they all go down at the end is lame.
Ultron on the other hand, has gotten better the more I watch.
Really one of the things I like most about Ultron, is one of the main complaints people had when they saw it. It feels like it's part of a bigger story. I don't mean a 5 minute bath to set up Ragnarok. I mean that this really feels like a comic book universe in a movie, rather than the normal world with some heroes thrown in. I can't really describe it, but it's the feeling I get when I watch the movie. The MCU has finally gotten to the point where there is enough to make it feel like a full on comic book movie.
Other good things:
- I know people love Loki but Ultron>>>>> imo
- Vision is amazing.
- I like the way the team fights together.
- I love Cap vs Ultron in Hong Kong(?)
- I love the scene where they are all in Tony's house just chumming it up.
- Scarlet Witch is pretty cool.
- Cap has a good suit, and is FAR more badass than the last Avengers.
- I don't care what you say, Hulkbuster v Hulk is awesome
- This armor:
Now obviously Ultron isn't that good (Widow/Banner is awful) and Avengers isn't that bad. I rate them fairly closely. And as I said Avengers was much better the first time around. But if you asked me which one i'd rather watch right now, it's not really that close. I've watched Ultron 4 times since I bought it a couple months ago. I find it an extremely rewatchable and enjoyable movie. Avengers just hasn't aged as well. Even though it was exactly what it needed to be at the time it came out.
Who's saying anything about the Hulkbıster fight.That fight was the SHIT!
And yeah, that armor.
rewatched AoU the other weekend and it's definitely growing on me. not sure if I'd put it over the first Avengers yet, but I do feel like it's more ambitious, and the characters and the world feel more fleshed out. plus the birth of Vision is one of my favorite scenes in the MCU.
Well this is horseshit.
The only Stark like character in AoU besides Tony is Ultron who is more like an extreme version of Stark with daddy issues.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
I honestly don't get the anger. I don't get the "out of nowhere" talk. I don't understand why anyone would get so worked up over it..people are strange.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eja3hmvCMQg
Fat man on Batman covering a bit on Civil War.
LOL'ed at Don Cheadle being "Iron Man's black friend"
Bit spoilery if you're ubersensitive to spoilers.
Fat man on Batman covering a bit on Civil War.
LOL'ed at Don Cheadle being "Iron Man's black friend"
Bit spoilery if you're ubersensitive to spoilers.
Zeyphersan
Banned
I agree with this. I felt like AoU did every individual component of The Avengers better yet still came out not as good. Still like it, though
I hate how disconnect AoU individual components were. Should've just build them off from their solo movies instead of introducing new character elements in AoU and try to work them into the main plot.
The problem with AoU was that it's straight up The Avengers sequel instead of Iron Man 3+Dark World+Winter Soldier.
And Whedon being...
...towards other Marvel movies didn't help.
The problem with AoU was that it's straight up The Avengers sequel instead of Iron Man 3+Dark World+Winter Soldier.
And Whedon being...
...towards other Marvel movies didn't help.
AoU had all the same issues, rather than correcting them. The biggest one being the lack of a dangerous threat or challenge to match up to the Avengers. The entire finale is once again, Dynasty Warriors. The Avengers pounding down on a bunch of mindless drones with the one big baddie, getting punched around between the lot.
So while it improved on the strengths, it also did nothing to to improve on its weaknesses. It also reset everything back and ignored most of Phase 2 development.
I just felt there was very little lead-in to it. Like, nobody is surprised that Civil War is happening, because Tony and Steve have been at odds in prior films. But there was no organic Hulk/Widow development. We went straight from her being terrified of him in Avengers 1 to wanting to run away with him in Avengers 2.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
We kinda just have to accept that they grew closer during the time that they developed the lullaby technique together. Time did pass between the movies, and Whedon kinda leaves it up to the audience to believe that they got to the point of becoming romantically involved by the time Ultron rolls around.
We never saw Cap train or practice to see what the limits of his strength were, yet in Winter Soldier, he's dropping out of the sky without a parachute into a hostile trooper, while in the previous movie, Avengers, he's strapping on a parachute before following Tony into battle against Thor. It just came out of nowhere, there was no buildup to that moment at all!
Some grew closer, others started to play "Hide the zucchini"....
Some grew closer, others started to play "Hide the zucchini"....
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Well..
Exactly. Folks make it sound like the Avengers were trapped in Amber between movies..lol. Shit went on. The team got closer. Obviously, some more than others.
Quips are fine, but it's just kind of cringey when that's the full extent of the humor and it gets repeated over and over and over.
Inferno313
Banned
Nah. Widow's first meeting with Banner is equal parts sexual tension and fear. Whether it was intended or not, rewatching The Avengers now there are definitely scenes where you can start to see an attraction forming between them.
Agreed. The event is lame, maybe if it took place in a major city instead of "some place in Europe that nobody gives a shit about" it would've been more exciting. Still a dope movie though!
The Wizard of Oz is a terrible movie.
Damn straight. I own this shirt:
Veronica vs Hulk is one of the highlights in the MCU catalog no matter how you feel about Age of Ultron.
I love that shirt, and you're right, that scene was fantastic. There were a lot of fantastic moments in AOU. However, as a whole, it didn't come together as successfully as Avengers/Winter Soldier/GOTG.
I still think it's a pretty good movie, it's just in a matter of comparisons, the bar was high and it didn't match it. If this was 2002, it would be considered the 2nd greatest comic book movie of all time.
ScarJo is horrendous in these movies. In every single damn one of em. Hard to believe LiT was 13 years ago.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
I think she's legit in Winter Soldier. That's where she sold me as Natasha for the first time at least. Really not handled well in Avengers, but a bit better in Ultron.
Inferno313
Banned
You know its true. She's wooden as fuck.
They definitely made a conscious decision to power him up in Winter Soldier. I guess you could hand-wave it away, saying he didn't know the limits of his powers yet, but that's never been suggested on screen.
It was less the relationship and more how they portrayed black widow, specially her biggest sin being that she cant conceive a child.
THe relationship in itself, I think it makes sense. Banner is inteligence and raw power in one place, so I see her being interested in him. And as for her, she is brilliant and scarjo.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
Her being "a monster" is talking about how she used to be a trained killer and even had to execute someone on her first mission. We've been over this many times.
Twas a response to the criticism of the Banner/Romanov-romance coming out of nowhere. People tend to forget that these movies don't link up to the second, but time passes between them. We don't see Steve Rogers go poop either, doesn't mean it doesn't happen....
Allow me! I have seen both in the past two days, so all of it is very fresh in my head.
For the record: first time seeing in theaters, Avengers>>>AoU. But on rewatch it's the opposite.
- The opening scene, up to the title "Avengers" is so boring that every time I want to watch that movie and I remember this part it gives me pause. I don't know what it is about that car chase but it is boring as all hell.
- The recruitment phase (especially Hulk) just isn't any fun to watch anymore.
- Why is Thor a complete idiot when we are first introduced to him? He acts like a complete fool. Culminating in him trying to murder Captain America when he attempts to make Thor their ally.
- Thor overall in this movie is pretty damn bad.
- Thor v Iron Man and Thor v Hulk just aren't nearly as exciting as the first time.
- The entire Hellicarrier part is pretty lame with a few good quips thrown in.
- Captain Americas suit.
- They still didn't know that Captain America could be cool, so they have him in an insanely lame gunfight and still make it so he can't hit anyone.
- The New York fight is fun but the battle droid way they all go down at the end is lame.
Ultron on the other hand, has gotten better the more I watch.
Really one of the things I like most about Ultron, is one of the main complaints people had when they saw it. It feels like it's part of a bigger story. I don't mean a 5 minute bath to set up Ragnarok. I mean that this really feels like a comic book universe in a movie, rather than the normal world with some heroes thrown in. I can't really describe it, but it's the feeling I get when I watch the movie. The MCU has finally gotten to the point where there is enough to make it feel like a full on comic book movie.
Other good things:
- I know people love Loki but Ultron>>>>> imo
- Vision is amazing.
- I like the way the team fights together.
- I love Cap vs Ultron in Hong Kong(?)
- I love the scene where they are all in Tony's house just chumming it up.
- Scarlet Witch is pretty cool.
- Cap has a good suit, and is FAR more badass than the last Avengers.
- I don't care what you say, Hulkbuster v Hulk is awesome
- This armor:
Now obviously Ultron isn't that good (Widow/Banner is awful) and Avengers isn't that bad. I rate them fairly closely. And as I said Avengers was much better the first time around. But if you asked me which one i'd rather watch right now, it's not really that close. I've watched Ultron 4 times since I bought it a couple months ago. I find it an extremely rewatchable and enjoyable movie. Avengers just hasn't aged as well. Even though it was exactly what it needed to be at the time it came out.
Your post basically comes down to "All the great stuff in Avengers is lame/ is lame upon rewatch".
Can't really argue that. I think all the things you said are lame are still great, and Avengers is one of the most rewatchable comic book films ever. It has aged flawlessly. In my opinion, AoU is boring from start to finish, the only memorable part of the film is Cap almost lifting the hammer, and Ultron is AWFUL. Ranking him above Loki completely baffles me, as Loki is far and away the best and most interesting villain in the MCU, whereas they completely dropped the ball on Ultron.
I also didn't think Vision was very great at all and him lifting the hammer was a scene that should have went to Cap in Infinity War. That scene is memorable to me because it was fucking SHITTY.
I'll just quote my post from the Avengers RTTP thread we just had:
Awesome write up. As I've said before, Avengers is one of the three comic book movies I place into my "God Tier" alongside The Dark Knight and Spider-Man 2, and I don't say that lightly. I think the film is an absolute masterpiece, an absolute JOY to watch and rewatch, and still the best MCU film (though, having seen Civil War once, that might change after a couple more watches!)
I don't have much to add that the OP hasn't already covered or this great video:
touches upon, but I'd like to mention a few things.
As the OP went over, I loved the introduction to the film, and then the introduction of each character. This is the first thing of many that Age of Ultron COMPLETELY fails at. Like Whedon forgot what made the first film great. In AoU, the Avengers are just... assembled and attacking a snow base? Why? What exactly about that situation necessitated the fucking Avengers? Cap could have probably handled that situation by himself with ease.
Now look at the Avengers. Mother fucking Loki (who has already been established in Thor, but whether you saw that film or not it really doesn't matter) comes in and steals the tesseract from Samuel L Jackson, creating a wormhole that fucking destroys a massive SHIELD building. fuuuuuuuuuuuck. there hasn't been a better MCU intro scene since, nor a better MCU villain.
and then you get this scene:
"As of right now, we are at war."
"What do we do?"
BOOOOOOOOOOM
And then the music hits.
Fucking perfection right there. The hype and excitement hits a high there and continues for the rest of the film. Shit is about to get really real.
The writing and humour in the film is great. You have your expected quips and lines from Robert Downey Jr,
but also now classic lines from Cap (I understood that reference!) and Thor (He's adopted...)
We also get the most memorable fight scenes in the MCU (until you all see Civil War!) with the awesome fight in the park, the fight on the helicarrier and the fight in NYC. If there's one word I could use to describe The Avengers, it's memorable.
You have this:
and this:
You have the perfect "theatre cheering" moment (to this day the loudest reaction to a film I've ever heard in a theatre. the place ERUPTED for at least 10 seconds and we couldn't even hear the "puny god" line):
And you have the perfect payoff to not only a single film, but multiple films:
ahhhhhhhh soooooo good. It's all so good. There are few films like it that have managed to have me smiling throughout the entire thing.
compare that to age of ultron, where the only scenes I legitimately remember are... Cap almost lifting the hammer (HOLY SHIT) and vision lifting the hammer with ease (because FUCK THAT CAP DESERVED THAT MOMENT). quite a difference...
I also want to mention the music. While it's no Superman theme, or Elfman Batman theme, or Elfman Spider-Man theme... The Avengers theme is probably my favorite and most memorable piece of music from a superhero movie in the modern era, alongside the Batman theme from the Nolan trilogy. I like it a lot, but it especially stands out in an era that really lacks awesome themes for their superhero movies.
Last but not least, you have the two scenes that has forced any comic book film fan to sit through the entire credits just in case something awesome happens, like...
HOLY SHIT
and...
lel
Fucking love this movie.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
I never hated AoU, but its a film that reeks of creative compromise. A rehash of the first movie minus the novelty of its concept, with none of the characters seeming as nuanced or interesting as they were in their last couple appearances in Iron Man 3 or Winter Soldier. Only Jeremy Renner could be argued that he gave his best performance with the Hawkeye character, everyone else is a downgrade. Vision is awesome, but Wanda and Quicksilver character arcs(and Tony Stark's) just vanish about 3/4th of the way through for another version of the Avengers' climax. Ultron's motivations are both too convoluted AND too generic to engage any of the film's many action sequences. And when you're not worrying about whatever the fuck the movie is trying to do, here comes Thor Raganrok sequel teasers, and Black Panther teasers, and whatever the fuck that Hulk/.BW thing was supposed to be that nobody liked. Whedon's quips have NEVER seemed so joylessly fitted in, like he just kinda had a contractual obligation to get a bunch of these things in, and the actors deliver them like a exhausted requirement.
And thats really the overarching feeling I get from the entire movie. A exhausted feeling of requirement. Not a movie that creatively needed to happen, just a movie Marvel Studios financially required to happen, so these colorful personalities could live out the same plot beats in another world-ending plot with another giant CG thing falling from the sky climax, with more teasers for the next 6/10 episode you'll watch no matter how hype or unhype you are.
Every minute I was watching it, I was hoping we could just skip ahead to Civil War which feels like it was gonna be consequential and character-driven in a way Age of Ultron plainly isn't(couldn't?) be, with action sequences that aren't shot, edited, and feel like all the other blockbuster action sequences from the past few years, with banter that's funny without ANNOUNCING their archness to the back seats like Whedon does here.
And here we are, 3 weeks to go, and it looks like thats what this movie is gonna be! Yay me
And thats really the overarching feeling I get from the entire movie. A exhausted feeling of requirement. Not a movie that creatively needed to happen, just a movie Marvel Studios financially required to happen, so these colorful personalities could live out the same plot beats in another world-ending plot with another giant CG thing falling from the sky climax, with more teasers for the next 6/10 episode you'll watch no matter how hype or unhype you are.
Every minute I was watching it, I was hoping we could just skip ahead to Civil War which feels like it was gonna be consequential and character-driven in a way Age of Ultron plainly isn't(couldn't?) be, with action sequences that aren't shot, edited, and feel like all the other blockbuster action sequences from the past few years, with banter that's funny without ANNOUNCING their archness to the back seats like Whedon does here.
And here we are, 3 weeks to go, and it looks like thats what this movie is gonna be! Yay me
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Yup still surprises me that so many people continue to misread that entire exchange.
No way dude, the farm scene is a much needed break from action that gives us some great character moments. It's shit like the Thor bathtime sequence and the "internet Nexus" (completely useless scene) that breaks the flow of the movie.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
Vision lifting Moljnr was a simple way of the film explaining "we can trust this guy" to the avengers team and the audience.
BronsonLee
Member
And it was stupid as fuck because goddamnit now I don't give a shit about Cap lifting it now that Blue Man Group did
Glass Shark
Banned
Avengers is better than AoU but I still don't understand all the hate AoU gets, it's a good movie.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Eh, it doesnt lessen Cap lifting the hammer for me. It is not completely established if Vision is worthy or just that he can lift it because he is a different type of being entirely.
Steve picking up Mjolnir will still be a massive fistpump moment.
Yep AOU is just a bit messy in comparison, it doesn't have the monumental task of putting the team together so it tries to do a little more with character motivations and development, but it kinda crumbles under the weight of also needing to set up Phase 3. If they dialed that back a bit in favor of more development/screen time for Ultron, it would be perfect.
It makes Avengers feel a little vanilla in comparison, but does not execute as confidently as the first movie did.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
It obviously wasn't handled well if it confused so many people, but I wish people would at least second guess "sterile=monster" as what Joss was really trying to say there.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
I like it better now. I realized that the first one isn't what I actually remember it for. I've made up this movie in my head that's hype from start to finish, and then I watch it and go "Why was I so happy in the theater?"
For Ultron, it's not that it's getting better, it's just stable for me. I like it exactly as much as I did in theaters (which was pretty great), while the first movie has gone down below it now.
Yeah, it's just poorly shot. Could've done more to make it clear to more people that this is what she's talking about.
True, but can you image the payoff if nobody had ever lifted Thor's hammer before, and you have a moment like THIS with Thanos:
I REALLY like Age of Ultron, but it was definitely not as memorable or balanced as Avengers. It improved in many areas, yet structurally it wasn't as balanced. It hit many highs but had more lows. Thor was always one of my favorites from the Ultron comic storyline, and we didn't get a moment NEARLY as memorable or awesome as this:
vision already lifted the fucking hammer
cap lifting it at the climax of Infinity War Part 2 should be the climax of the ENTIRE MCU... and that affect is lessened because of a stupid throwaway scene in age of ultron for a stupid unimportant character
yeah I went there. I don't think vision is that great. certainly not "worthy" of stealing that moment from cap.
cap lifting it at the climax of Infinity War Part 2 should be the climax of the ENTIRE MCU... and that affect is lessened because of a stupid throwaway scene in age of ultron for a stupid unimportant character
yeah I went there. I don't think vision is that great. certainly not "worthy" of stealing that moment from cap.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
to be clear, the first Avengers is a 7/10, and Age of Ultron is a 6/10. There isn't really a HUGE gap between them, and its not like either of them are great/terrible films. Just one of them got there first, with cleaner execution and greater novelty.
I think there's a gulf in quality between Avengers and AoU. For all the criticism about its visual qualities, Avengers has a better script and is more logically consistent. It conveys a better sense of space and movement. Easier to tell where things are in relation to other things. Its scenes also transition more smoothly.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
I don't think this would be a popular opinion, but I wouldn't be opposed to Vision defeating Thanos with Mjolnir. A Tony Stark creation saving people for once could be a cool moment.
Cap can still have his moment.
Picture this: all of the Avengers are seemingly down and defeated. Thanos lifts his Infinity Gauntlet'd hand triumphantly into the air. Then off screen you hear clank, clank, clank, the sound of two objects being hit together. Thanos turns around and you see Captain America, his shield in one hand and Thor's hammer in the other.
Now that would be an awww shieet moment.
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