thecouncil
Banned
huh?
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Captain America Civil War was highly Disappointing
- Thread starter Fezan
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huh?
ajfoucault
Member
It was an okay movie. Comparing it to ANYTHING DC has done regarding movies in the past 10 years helps you see that it could be MUCH worse.
I'm not saying Civil War doesn't have character arcs. I think Black Panther's was done very well for the amount of screen time it had, for example. I'm saying none of those arcs will have real consequences. There's a general feeling of "everything will be fine for everyone in the end." And that's totally fine and even appropriate for a popcorn superhero movie, which is why I framed my praise of the movie as I did.
Of course, because the movie sets up situations where they don't actually want to kill each other despite there being a meaningful, deep idealogical divide for which they easily could have created situations where the two sides were trying to kill each other, which is the point of a "no consequence" criticism. The final fight is more intense because Tony probably is trying to kill Bucky, but of course nothing comes of it. Steve, being the good guy he is, doesn't even resent Tony for it and offers an olive branch after.
Let me ask a question that I think will help clarify the criticism a lot of people have for the MCU: does anyone believe any of these guys would ever turn heel and start being a villain? It's a very specific hypothetical, I know, but there's other similar questions you could ask that would have the same effect.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Again... Captain America isnt Captain America anymore. That is a consequence. He's going to have to earn that shield back.
Inferno313
Banned
The Dark Knight came out 8 years ago.
I loved Civil War, I have some issues with it, the biggest one being the lack of focus on the Accords, and when the focus was on the accord it was mostly on the scale of the collateral damage than the political issues it'd arise for a team of super heroes to continue stepping on foreign soil. Most of the issue also happens because of Bucky, although I guess that makes sense considering its a Captain America movie first and foremost.
Also I do agree Spider-Man was shoehorned as fuck, but I didn't care, he was great in the movie.
Edit: Also I finally saw BvS recently (Director's Cut) and anyone agreeing that the Martha line scene was better than Tony watching the video is crazy, the Martha scene is even more hilarious because Batman was ranting about both his and Superman's parents right before the scene happens.
Also I do agree Spider-Man was shoehorned as fuck, but I didn't care, he was great in the movie.
Edit: Also I finally saw BvS recently (Director's Cut) and anyone agreeing that the Martha line scene was better than Tony watching the video is crazy, the Martha scene is even more hilarious because Batman was ranting about both his and Superman's parents right before the scene happens.
I thought Ant Man was far worse. At least we have a scene with Stark visiting Peter, they just roll up in a van and here's Antman. I liked him in the movie but that was pretty damn lame.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Thor 2 tier.
Inferno313
Banned
No they didn't. Falcon brings up bringing in Antman much earlier. Which is a continuation of a plot thread from the Antman film itself, which ends with the notion that Falcon is looking for Antman for something.
Jean Grey Will Rise
Banned
none of this is comparable to Heath Ledger's performance lol
The issue with Scott being there is, while Spider-Man was shoehorned, the movie at least explains why he'd be on Tony's side.
Despite Ant-Man being in is because of a direct consequence of him infiltrating the Avenger's HQ, due to the resolution of the movie it makes NO SENSE for Scott to risk becoming a criminal again despite how much he sympathizes with Cap.
Oh sorry, they gave him a line! Its still a fucking lame shoe horned in entry. I would have much preferred he actually had a part to play in the movie despite growing huge and punching stuff. Its sloppy lazy writing.
Death is the ultimate price, but there are also personal and public stakes. Personal stakes are more than just what a hero wants to do. They illustrate why: why this goal and that action, and how it must be performed in a profound and personal sense.
Civil War didn't have any of that. Was there any indication that any of them would lose their reputation? Or powers? Was there any dramatic irony? Hypocrisy? Was there even a big mystery? I don't think the film asked a big question at the beginning of their story.... it just kept rolling and rolling. Then we reach the meat and bones: breaking a friendship -- but when the entire franchise is about leading to unity -- it feels mundane. The third party, aka the villain, was just not an overwhelming force. Think of ET, the stakes were implied and if our bud ET gets taken by the Men in Black we just know it's gonna bad and our protagonist will have to live forever with that nightmare of an idea.
Cop dramas have higher stakes than what's presented in Civil War.
Tony friggin Stark was set up beautifully at the beginning of the movie. He starts to feel guilty by all the hero stuff. Yet he recruits a kid. Then he continues to blow shit up at the airport. He remains cool and collected like he's always been. He's literally half the movie but he's just playing tag with Captain America.
Bring me Doctor Strange and Black Panther, but enough with these movies trying to follow a dozen heroes. It just ruins the screenplay. Jinkies.
broncobuster
Banned
Pretty sure that was the highlight for me.
That's added to Clark stealing socks and Bruce's angry lifting as motivation to workout.
SolidChamp
Banned
Because it's just so much better made than any other comic book movie.
I feel like it's just above that status, really. It is one, yes, but for me (IMO) it deserves to be mentioned in the same conversation as the films I've listed and not in the same conversation as forgettable Toys R Us stuff like the MCU.
The point of the ideological conflict in Civil War was to further complicate and intensify the personal conflict between Tony and Steve. A conflict that is effective and tragic because it nearly pushed both to killing each other. The rest of your argument boils down to "But there are going to be sequels", which really isn't a criticism of the film at all.
I'm agreeing with you haha
sorry people always bring up the trite stakes talking point in MCU threads failing to recognize that death for the sake of death is a cheap way to evoke emotion
LumpOfCole
Member
I think the movie could've gone farther with Scarlet Witch's collateral damage to better justify the Accords.
A lot of GAF seems to sleep in movie theaters. Do you guys have beds?
MCU deserves to be in the conversation as Nolan's Batmans are.Because it's just so much better made than any other comic book movie.
I feel like it's just above that status, really. It is one, yes, but for me (IMO) it deserves to be mentioned in the same conversation as the films I've listed and not in the same conversation as forgettable Toys R Us stuff like the MCU.
When Nolan can put 3 movies with 1 being great, 1 being good and 1 being terrible than I think it absolutely is in the conversation.
VeryGooster
Banned
Or memorable for the wrong reasons
you got damn right.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
When people say they fell asleep in the cinema, I don't really believe they did.
LaunchpadMcQ
Banned
I thought it was amazing. Is that a hot take now?
I watched it at home.
Did I mention the word cinema at all?
No, I did not.
MarkMclovin
Member
Why are you basing Zemo's actions on luck?
Cap didn't know about the video either. The camera in the middle of knowhere is the only bad thing about the whole plot point but you can make something up that makes sense if you want, like it being a secret SHIELD road that has security cameras in place?
Also, cap holding the helicopter and going from overarm to underarm is boner inducing.
Eh, not really. He's still going to function in the same capacity. He'll have his shield back next movie by some hijinks or another. It won't be anything like Batman at the beginning of the Dark Knight Rises, which would be a comparable situation in which someone sacrificed their reputation and name to do the right thing.
With that being said I don't want to undersell what the movies have done with Steve. They've done a good job illustrating his disallusion with nationalism and the erosion of his soldier-following-orders mentality. His actions in Civil War wouldn't have made sense otherwise.
Like I said, I loved Civil War. But I don't really believe there's a counter to the "playfighting" criticism. I suppose the counter would be that it's asking the MCU to be something it's not.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
The airport scene is right up there with the shield crap from IM2. 25 minutes of fan service stuffed in the middle of a Captain America movie. Awful.
This is my main problem as an illogical Accords couldve been thematically appropriate if Cap had challenged it more. Scarlet Witch, who joined a global terror group for revenge(besides the avengers), is in mental anguish over that tiny incident, took me right out of the movie.
Why are most of the complaints about this film things that are painfully clear if you've watched the film and paid attention?
Oh my bad. I didn't realize it had been released on home video yet.
SolidChamp
Banned
All three of Nolan's films, despite varying levels of quality, are way more distinct in their elements and far more memorable to me than anything in the MCU. TDKR, while inconsistent in its quality, gave us Bane. I remember him. I remember key scenes with him, his presence, his dialogue. I can't say the same for any villain in the MCU. Doubly true for Ledger's Joker.
Batman Begins has more believable dramatic beats that I can invest in and more characterization going on in its first hour than any of the origin MCU films combined. It has more subtext, more emotion behind it, and is executed with far better direction and cinematography (action scenes notwithstanding).
I honestly can't see the MCU films being talked about in the same conversation as Nolan's films, because he was given an auteur's creative license over those movies...that doesn't happen with the MCU films. Nolan's films took risks in their staging, direction, screenplays, and performances. The MCU plays it safe. You can always count on a fun 2 hours with your popcorn...and literally nothing more.
If there's a single memorable scene or quotable line of dialogue in the MCU that is delivered with weight, conviction, and a truly awesome performance behind it, I certainly haven't been able to remember it.
Inferno313
Banned
It's a Captain America film, not an Avengers or Antman film. Not every character present needs to be a main character. Antman's inclusion is an important one, as his going giant and causing too much damage is the scale-tipping moment that both allows Captain America and Bucky to escape from the fight, it's also a great moment where Captain America begins to wonder if he's gone too far, and that shows that there might, in fact, need to be some kind of policies in place to control these people. Not to mention the fact that he gets a ton of great comedic moments there and it's a great set-piece on it's own.
I had to look up the release date too - I was like damn I missed it?
Yeah but, uh no, I didn't.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
All them stakes don't matter when the dirt floats offs the casket, right? lol..Pretty inconsistent stuff there, friends of Martha. As for the movie being forgettable, y'all might want to stop watching these movies under the influence.
I can list the few comic book movies that were so horrid, my brain dumped ALMOST everything about them..Fan4stic, Catwoman and GreenDeadpool Lantern being the biggest culprits. That Arnold Batman is right there with them.
BvS was a 6 to me, until I saw the real version and upped it .5. Not gonna forget one thing about it. Suicide Squad? Think that one is going to fade from memory sooner than later..
I can list the few comic book movies that were so horrid, my brain dumped ALMOST everything about them..Fan4stic, Catwoman and Green
BvS was a 6 to me, until I saw the real version and upped it .5. Not gonna forget one thing about it. Suicide Squad? Think that one is going to fade from memory sooner than later..
It is a criticism of the film, absolutely, because it limits what the film can do with its characters when there's a mandate to have sequels of these movies with the main characters as something kids want to cheer for. Your "but Steve might have killed Tony at the end of Civil War!" rings very, very hollow. There's never a situation where either of those characters would have killed the other. If the movie wanted to establish that this was a possibility, maybe it shouldn't have treated the airport fight with such levity, in which only one person got hurt...by accident.
While I agree Nolan's films are far more memorable, I think the climax of Civil War is great. I thought the reveal that the WS killed Tony's parents was fine and established a nice reason and mood for the last fight. I also thought Black Panther being the one to have the last scene with Zemo was a good bookend for both their characters in the movie.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Best post in this thread! It's about time for a re-watch, thanks for the reminder.
Civil War was great for people invested in the MCU to begin with. It builds off of what came before it without needlessly retreading already established character arcs and motivations. It's really the first marvel movie that reward long time fans while punishing casual viewers. The Russos stated this bluntly in interviews, saying they feel they should no longer be afraid to chart new territory while keeping the considerations of newcomers to a minimum.
So yes, it kinda feels like a long episode in a cookbook soap opera but that's actually one of its greatest strengths. It's readily apparent browsing this thread who has been engaged enough to pay attention to the MCU while watching it over the years and who only watches it casually. If you're not the biggest fan of the MCU to begin with, Civil War will not change that because it never sets out to. It really doesn't care. The movie has faults, as does this serial format of storytelling in cinema, but for the fans of the MCU, Civil War payed dividends. Call it fan service of you want, it doesn't really matter. That doesn't make it any less superb for its fans.
So yes, it kinda feels like a long episode in a cookbook soap opera but that's actually one of its greatest strengths. It's readily apparent browsing this thread who has been engaged enough to pay attention to the MCU while watching it over the years and who only watches it casually. If you're not the biggest fan of the MCU to begin with, Civil War will not change that because it never sets out to. It really doesn't care. The movie has faults, as does this serial format of storytelling in cinema, but for the fans of the MCU, Civil War payed dividends. Call it fan service of you want, it doesn't really matter. That doesn't make it any less superb for its fans.
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