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[Slayven]

you should stop using time as a point. it literally means nothing in this argument

It really shouldn't i mean Marvel modern tech is light years beyond anything seen in the Halo universe.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

are we still talking about captain america? Crazy powers?

Someone said he's peak human but he can dodge bullets because he "sees faster" and even if he gets hit he just shrugs it off anyway. That's pretty crazy.

 

[Manmademan]

Captain America is described as being "only" human

Here's the thing- no, he isn't. Marvel hasn't gone this route since before nearly ALL of GAF was alive. He's been firmly "enhanced human" or "superhuman" for DECADES now. Even movie cap was pulling stunts that were flat out not possible for someone "only" human- remember Cap running down a car, diving after a submarine, and prying it open with his bare hands?

Don't get mad because you saw an old "handbook of the marvel universe" from 1980 that wasn't accurate.

yet he's got unaided physical prowess equaling or surpassing that of a fully-armored supersoldier made 600 years in the future.

Like we said before- current day marvel tech is light years past anything seen in halo. DC is the same way. Drop a squad of Spartans in MU New York City and you would measure their life expectancy in a couple of seconds. Hell, Drop em in the middle of Africa. See what happens.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

you should stop using time as a point. it literally means nothing in this argument

Indeed, but his point is more that this person is being described as having super strength, inhuman reflexes (dodging bullets? come on), being able to outrun motorcycles and having a magical shield that can reflect or stop any attack. Plus enhanced regeneration, implausible toughness and durability to boot. The only standard by which you could argue that this is not extremely powerful is in the one where everybody else is even more powerful. Like Cap is a weakling compared to Superman or Galactus, yes. But as a 'peakhuman' he's still breaking physics, more or less. It's not an argument saying he "should" lose in this fight, but it's an accurate observation.

 

[Manmademan]

Indeed, but his point is more that this person is being described as having super strength, inhuman reflexes (dodging bullets? come on), being able to outrun motorcycles and having a magical shield that can reflect or stop any attack. Plus enhanced regeneration, implausible toughness and durability to boot. The only standard by which you could argue that this is not extremely powerful is in the one where everybody else is even more powerful. Like Cap is a weakling compared to Superman or Galactus, yes. But as a 'peakhuman' he's still breaking physics, more or less. It's not an argument saying he "should" lose in this fight, but it's an accurate observation.

Really though? everyone and their grandma does this. Daredevil, Wolverine, even Batman. Bullet dodging is a scrub skill in comic land, though the more skilled the marksman (bullseye, hawkeye, deadshot) the harder this is to pull off.

But yes, in comparison to just about every other hero in comic land, Rogers is pretty low on the scale and gets his props on strategy and technique. Slayven posted the lineup to operation: Galactic Storm and EVERYONE else in that lineup was exponentially more powerful than steve. Except for hawkeye, who is pretty much captain america with a sweet bow and arrow set.

Hawkeye vs. MC would actually be a pretty fun argument, because of those trick arrows. Most embarrassing loss for MC ever.

 

[crimsonspider89]

To be fair standard Marvel and DC civilians are kinda strong as well.

These guys survive cosmic fights with a couple casualties and move forward.

 

[Serrato]

How about the Punisher vs MC then? Would it make it more... equal?

(Irony of talking about a Street Level anti-hero against the savior of a galaxy)

 

[Slayven]

How about the Punisher vs MC then? Would it make it more... equal?

(Irony of talking about a Street Level anti-hero against the savior of a galaxy)

MC would be just around street level in comics.

 

[Manmademan]

How about the Punisher vs MC then? Would it make it more... equal?

(Irony of talking about a Street Level anti-hero against the savior of a galaxy)

Punisher would probably take the L against master chief. He's heavily armed, but not with anything ridiculous. Frank gets a lot of bonus points just for being completely, utterly, and totally amoral when it comes to taking out the trash.

 

[Serrato]

MC would be just around street level in comics.

I know, that's the joke

 

[Manmademan]

MC would be just around street level in comics.

high end street level for sure though. MC vs. Luke Cage? Not sure MC could hurt him though. Sweet Christmas, what a fight that would be.

 

[Kieli]

Has Punisher ever killed an innocent person who happened to be jailed (incorrectly).

Would he even care?

 

[Slayven]

Punisher would probably take the L against master chief. He's heavily armed, but not with anything ridiculous. Frank gets a lot of bonus points just for being completely, utterly, and totally amoral when it comes to taking out the trash.

 

[Tawpgun]

What are the arguements from the Cap America supporters?

To me, Cap can MAYBE be just as physically strong, fast, and durable as armorless chief.

But factor in the power armor and it isn't a contest. Whoeever was controlling Master Chief in the video was a complete scrub anyway.

 

[Stinkles]

Has Punisher ever killed an innocent person who happened to be jailed (incorrectly).

Would he even care?

Chief follows orders. He got his start taking out human insurrectionists. They would argue they were being overtaxed by an oppressive colonial government. Chief didn't care. Or if he did, he didn't say anything.

He doesn't just shot aliens and is a pretty cool guy.

 

[crimsonspider89]

What are the arguements from the Cap America supporters?

To me, Cap can MAYBE be just as physically strong, fast, and durable as armorless chief.

But factor in the power armor and it isn't a contest. Whoeever was controlling Master Chief in the video was a complete scrub anyway.

Cap has ensane agility, is a strategic mastermind, has durability(can take a blow from Gambit's cards) and a hand to hand genius.

Also his sprint is faster.

Not to mention the shield.

 

[Manmademan]

I knew you were going to post THAT version of the punisher. just knew it. Either that or punisher 2099.

 

[Manmademan]

What are the arguements from the Cap America supporters?

To me, Cap can MAYBE be just as physically strong, fast, and durable as armorless chief.

But factor in the power armor and it isn't a contest. Whoeever was controlling Master Chief in the video was a complete scrub anyway.

Cap is stronger than MC without the armor, and faster than MC with the armor. quoting myself from above:

Not sure how I missed this one. The serum is by all accounts superior to spartan conditioning. Cap's body produces no fatigue poisons and does not tire. His metabolism is so fast getting drunk (at least on alcohol) is impossible, it's immediately processed out. Cap either does not age or does so very slowly- he's functionally immortal as far as marvel is concerned at this point. He possesses strength somewhere between 1 and 10 tons, and his body is so durable that jumping out of an airplane sans parachute will crack the concrete, but not his bones. He's been spotted moving at 60mph while carrying others, leaping two stories straight up, and literally "sees faster" than humans are able to, which allows him to dodge bullets with ease (as spiderman and gambit do, both of whom he has fought H2H with favorable results.)

That's not bad for 1940, and CLEARLY better than spartan conditioning. As for expertise, Cap has mastered every form of combat that exists on his planet BEFORE getting frozen in the 1940s, and LEADS global and intergalactic armies. MC takes a massive L in the tactics/strategy category.

 

[Trey]

I'm not buying "light years beyond anything seen in Halo". At that point stories should make no sense. Forerunners and Precursors are pretty much space wizards.

Cap is stronger than MC without the armor, and faster than MC with the armor. quoting myself from above:

Some concrete stats. Going by this, they're about a draw in stats if Chief wears his armor. And how is it clearly better than Spartan conditioning?

 

[crimsonspider89]

I'm not buying "light years beyond anything seen in Halo". At that point stories should make no sense. Forerunners and Precursors are pretty much space wizards.

You need to do your research.

IF Spartans had early tony tech, they would of destroyed the Covenant.

That's Tony. Not including Pym, Banner or Richards tech.

Or even Doom.

 

[Manmademan]

I'm not buying "light years beyond anything seen in Halo". At that point stories should make no sense. Forerunners and Precursors are pretty much space wizards.

Never read a marvel comic, I see.

Marvel science is so advanced it's basically magic. Dr. Doom makes working time machines out of scrap parts in a couple of hours. Tony's old ass suits from the 1980s could go completely scorched earth on a battalion of spartans and it would not be close.

Some concrete stats. Going by this, they're about a draw in stats if Chief wears his armor. And how is it clearly better than Spartan conditioning?

No concrete stats are available, only feats. plenty in the thread if you want to scroll back.

 

[Trey]

You need to do your research.

IF Spartans had early tony tech, they would of destroyed the Covenant.

That's Tony. Not including Pym, Banner or Richards tech.

Or even Doom.

That's why I'm asking. The Forerunners and Precursors are pretty much bullshit science device generators. If tech is light years beyond what they had, how can there even be any stakes or tension in such a universe?

 

[crimsonspider89]

I mean Tony has a liquimetal coating armor stored in his body with teleporting weapons.

Think about that.
EDIT: Because the threats have the access to the same if not better tech. Or are insanely strong.

Or extradimension threats. New Avengers currently has heroes facing alternate versions of themselves and destroying there planet to save Earth.

I mean Kang has much more advance tech available that dwarfs Richards and Tony's.

 

[Trey]

I mean Tony has a liquimetal coating armor stored in his body with teleporting weapons.

Think about that.

Sounds like what the forerunners used to heat up their morning coffee.

 

[Tawpgun]

Cap is stronger than MC without the armor, and faster than MC with the armor. quoting myself from above:

Interesting. Didn't know that. I was going off purely movie cap.

Gotta give Chief the edge as far as strategy is concerned though. He has been militarily trained since age six and has basically been on active duty since then either in training or in combat. But even with all this knowledge, Cap might still have an edge... until you factor Cortana in. She is for lack of better terms melded into his mind and armor. She can make strategic decisions WITH him with computer speed.


But now that I know all this, Cap would give Chief a hard time, but I still gotta give Chief the edge if he's with Cortana and has the suit.

 

[Manmademan]

I mean Tony has a liquimetal coating armor stored in his body with teleporting weapons.

Think about that.

and god help them if they ever come across this thing:

or this

 

[crimsonspider89]

Interesting. Didn't know that. I was going off purely movie cap.

Gotta give Chief the edge as far as strategy is concerned though. He has been militarily trained since age six and has basically been on active duty since then either in training or in combat. But even with all this knowledge, Cap might still have an edge... until you factor Cortana in. She is for lack of better terms melded into his mind and armor. She can make strategic decisions WITH him with computer speed.


But now that I know all this, Cap would give Chief a hard time, but I still gotta give Chief the edge if he's with Cortana and has the suit.

Nah Cap has defeated space empires, and more recently the Builders with his tactics. He has 30 plus years and now 10 spent in an alternate timeline.

Cap is known as a tactical mastermind.

 

[Manmademan]

Interesting. Didn't know that. I was going off purely movie cap.

Gotta give Chief the edge as far as strategy is concerned though. He has been militarily trained since age six and has basically been on active duty since then either in training or in combat. But even with all this knowledge, Cap might still have an edge... until you factor Cortana in. She is for lack of better terms melded into his mind and armor. She can make strategic decisions WITH him with computer speed.


But now that I know all this, Cap would give Chief a hard time, but I still gotta give Chief the edge if he's with Cortana and has the suit.

Captain america has out-strategized the kree supreme intelligence, MULTIPLE times. Infinity was the most recent. Here is the description:

The Supreme Intelligence, also known as Supremor, was created more than a million years ago by the extraterrestrial race known as the Kree to help them create a Cosmic Cube like the one that their enemies, the Skrulls, had once created. It is composed of the brains of the greatest Kree minds (thinkers, generals, philosophers, scientists and so on), removed upon their deaths and assimilated by the computer.

Eventually the Intelligence developed a mind of its own and refused to create the cube knowing the dangers that could be wrought by an evolved Cosmic Cube, which was what had destroyed massive parts of the Skrull Empire.

Despite this, it was allowed to continue to exist to serve the Kree with its wisdom. Its influence eventually grew to the point where it replaced the Kree government, although it has occasionally been deposed for periods of time. Most of the Kree are fanatically devoted to it, and its worship is an organized religion.

It's basically the most advanced artificial intelligence that exists. Rogers is just THAT good a tactician.

I mean Tony has a liquimetal coating armor stored in his body with teleporting weapons.

Think about that.
EDIT: Because the threats have the access to the same if not better tech. Or are insanely strong.

Or extradimension threats. New Avengers currently has heroes facing alternate versions of themselves and destroying there planet to save Earth.

I mean Kang has much more advance tech available that dwarfs Richards and Tony's.

Forgot about this dude. But you don't even have to go to crazy future tech like kang has to show what's possible- people like apocalypse are sitting on mountains of celestial technology that they can do literally anything they want with.

 

[Trey]

Cap is known as a tactical mastermind.

So is Master Chief. Spitting out useless platitudes across genres won't advance the discussion.

Kree sound like Forerunner lite, and Cortana is already more gully than those old gods' AI were, so looks like we're back to square one.

Also, to show how pointless it is to drop either combatant into the opposing universe, Captain America would be somewhere between ODST and Spartan IV tier in ability, but he'd probably be slotted in as an Admiral for his strategic ability.

 

[Slayven]

Captain america has out-strategized the kree supreme intelligence, MULTIPLE times. Infinity was the most recent. Here is the description:



It's basically the most advanced artificial intelligence that exists. Rogers is just THAT good a tactician.

You need to read Avengers AI.

 

[crimsonspider89]

So is Master Chief. Spitting out useless platitudes across genres won't advance the discussion.

Neither won't one sentence retorts without examples and selective quoting.

MC beat the covenant, after how many casualties?

Cap beat Kang, Shi'ar, Kree, the Builders with minimal casualties.

Seriously.

 

[Manmademan]

You need to read Avengers AI.

ugh, I'm not made of money! Marvel, why do you do this to me lol

 

[Tawpgun]

So is Master Chief. Spitting out useless platitudes across genres won't advance the discussion.

Gotta go with this.

Masterchief beat the gravemind, and Didact who was the general of the forerunner army and the forerunners were pretty smart I guess.

Something like this is hard to debate because of how vague it is.

 

[Trey]

Neither won't one sentence retorts without examples and selective quoting.

MC beat the covenant, after how many casualties?

Cap beat Kang, Shi'ar, Kree, the Builders with minimal casualties.

Seriously.

Master Chief defeated the greatest commander in Forerunner history with minimal casualties (a few squads and a science team lost).

At this point we should just get as much information out there so casual onlookers can learn a bit about these respective franchises.

For example, I didn't know that Steve Rogers had speed like that. 60mph is about what the fastest Spartan runs.

 

[Artakartel]

I laughed out loud at the end if that video. That's utterly ridiculous

 

[crimsonspider89]

Gotta go with this.

Masterchief beat the gravemind, and Didact who was the general of the forerunner army and the forerunners were pretty smart I guess.

Something like this is hard to debate because of how vague it is.

You need to research to see how difference in power levels the enemies are. Everything that the covenant does is much weaker than what the enemies in Marvel does.

Also you need to look at the casualty list for the events.

And you can even use 60-70 marvel.

 

[Manmademan]

Gotta go with this.

Masterchief beat the gravemind, and Didact who was the general of the forerunner army and the forerunners were pretty smart I guess.

Something like this is hard to debate because of how vague it is.

Beating the "Combined greatest minds of a galactic civilization over the span of a million years" is pretty hard to top as far as strategic feats go.

really, the entire civilized universe (not galaxy. universe. the whole thing) literally handed their armies over to steve rogers because otherwise they would have been wiped out. That's a hell of a resume.

Master Chief defeated the greatest commander in Forerunner history with minimal casualties (a few squads and a science team lost).

At this point we should just get as much information out there so casual onlookers can learn a bit about these respective franchises.

For example, I didn't know that Steve Rogers had speed like that. 60mph is about what the fastest Spartan runs.

while carrying someone else. He's potentially faster than that.

 

[Devolution]

You need to research to see how difference in power levels the enemies are. Everything that the covenant does is much weaker than what the enemies in Marvel does.

Also you need to look at the casualty list for the events.

And you can even use 60-70 marvel.

It's two completely different fictional universes there is no actual way to compare.

 

[Trey]

Beating the "Combined greatest minds of a galactic civilization over the span of a million years" is pretty hard to top as far as strategic feats go.

really, the entire civilized universe (not galaxy. universe. the whole thing) literally handed their armies over to steve rogers because otherwise they would have been wiped out. That's a hell of a resume.

That's what the Gravemind is in Halo more or less. Who the Chief (and Arbiter) defeated.

But yo', I want to read this particular CapAm story. Sounds dope.

 

[Slayer-33]

This is a 1v1

It can go either way but shouldn't MC win 75% + of the fights due to physical and weapon advantages? It's hard to imagine how cap can incapacitate someone like MC to the extent that it allows him to shield kill MC. Unless he used MC's weapons against him, specially the nades.

 

[Tawpgun]

Beating the "Combined greatest minds of a galactic civilization over the span of a million years" is pretty hard to top as far as strategic feats go.

really, the entire civilized universe (not galaxy. universe. the whole thing) literally handed their armies over to steve rogers because otherwise they would have been wiped out. That's a hell of a resume.





while carrying someone else. He's potentially faster than that.

Gravemind is the assimilation of all the knowledge of everything the flood has consumed, which includes forerunners which were at the time of the floods rise, the most advanced civilization.

Then theres also something about the flood being produced by or remnants of the precursors who were more advanced than forerunners or some garbage.

The 343 direction of the Halo universe kinda opened comic book levels of space magic ridiculousness and I haven't kept up that well.

I think the strategic genius thing is too abstract to be put into this scenario. I'd rather be looking at combat skills and arsenal.

 

[Manmademan]

That's what the Gravemind is in Halo more or less. Who the Chief (and Arbiter) defeated.

But yo', I want to read this particular CapAm story. Sounds dope.

There's several. Cap (and the avengers) fought the Kree in the Kree/Skrull war, Operation: Galactic Storm, and most recently they teamed up with the Kree in infinity, until the supreme intelligence determined the builders were unbeatable, and capitulated.

Infinity is probably what you want to read though, it's pretty awesome.

 

[crimsonspider89]

This is a 1v1

It can go either way but shouldn't MC win 75% + of the fights due to physical and weapon advantages? It's hard to imagine how cap can incapacitate someone like MC to the extent that it allows him to shield kill MC. Unless he used MC's weapons against him, specially the nades.

Again. Cap is much more than human and a highly skilled H2H combatician.

He is quicker than Master Chief, can see bullets, extremely durable, has a mild health regenration.

Weapon advantage, sure.

But Cap's physical abilities are heavily underestimated.

 

[Artakartel]

Anybody used to read GrudgeMatch.com back in the day? That was the OG. Death vs Taxes and Rock vs Paper vs Scissors are classics.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

The didact in Halo 4 had some space voodo that disintegrated people while scanning them into a computer basically. He also had telekenesis or something. It's not all that special tho considering the stakes of previous games was galactic life extinction with the halo arrays. The main silliness was when Chief had his "evolution accelerated" or some such nonsense.

 

[Trey]

Infinity is probably what you want to read though, it's pretty awesome.

Thanks man.

Gravemind is the assimilation of all the knowledge of everything the flood has consumed, which includes forerunners which were at the time of the floods rise, the most advanced civilization.

Then theres also something about the flood being produced by or remnants of the precursors who were more advanced than forerunners or some garbage.

The 343 direction of the Halo universe kinda opened comic book levels of space magic ridiculousness and I haven't kept up that well.

I think the strategic genius thing is too abstract to be put into this scenario. I'd rather be looking at combat skills and arsenal.

The didact in Halo 4 had some space voodo that disintegrated people while scanning them into a computer basically. He also had telekenesis or something. It's not all that special tho considering the stakes of previous games was galactic life extinction with the halo arrays. The main silliness was when Chief had his "evolution accelerated" or some such nonsense.

Forerunners been on - and continue to be on some bullshit. Hopefully Halo 5, etc doesn't keep up the foolishness. I felt space magic was kept to appropriate levels in the original trilogy.

 

[Manmademan]

jesus. I've been in this thread so long I forgot today was comic book day. My stories!

 

[crimsonspider89]

Get Infinity on digital. Comixology is the app. Was designed with digital in mind.

 

[OrlanisWorks]

This reminds me of that shitty show on Spike. That one "something warrior" show with a bunch of bullshit.

The only thing they could do to make sure Captain America wins is pretty much to give him a writer's protection (as seen in the vid). So they pretty much wrote a comic book short-film and this is it. Logic out the door, naturally

 

[Manmademan]

Get Infinity on digital. Comixology is the app. Was designed with digital in mind.

This. digital comics really add a ton to the medium, I'm a fan.