Support NeoGAF

[Thorgal]

for those who do not know :

In Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, the simulation takes place on a replica of a starship bridge, with the test-taker as captain and other Starfleet members, officers or other cadets, in other key positions. In the scenario of the 2280s, the cadet receives a distress signal stating that the Kobayashi Maru has struck a gravitic mine in the Klingon Neutral Zone and is rapidly losing power, hull integrity and life support. There are no other vessels nearby. The cadet is faced with a decision:

Attempt to rescue the Kobayashi Maru* '​s crew and passengers, which involves violating the Neutral Zone and potentially provoking the Klingons into hostile action or an all-out war; or
Abandon the Kobayashi Maru, potentially preventing war but leaving the crew and passengers to die.
If the cadet chooses to save the Kobayashi Maru the scenario progresses quickly. The bridge officers notify the cadet that they are in violation of the treaty. As the starship enters the Neutral Zone, the communications officer loses contact with the crippled vessel. Klingon starships then appear on an intercept course. Attempts to contact them are met with radio silence; indeed, their only response is to open fire with devastating results. The objective of the test is not for the cadet to outfight the opponent but rather to test the cadet's reaction to a no-win situation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru

Kirk altered the simulation to make it winnable as in his words he doesn't believe in a un -winnable situation. but he still cheated so he did not beat it fairly .

When Scotty took the test he used his knowledge of science and engineering and managed to beat the klingon ships .
But The simulation kept up bringing in more ships and kept going until scotty got beaten .

However Captain Calhoun from the New frontier novels had (imo) the only right solution and beat the simulation fairly .

What did he do ?

Shoot and destroy the Kobayashi Maru and then run like hell.

His reasoning for his actions ?

1) why was a cargo ship with so many civilian passengers flying that close to the neutral zone ?

2 ) It seemed awfully convenient that so many cloaked klingon ships just "happened" to be nearby when you attempted the rescue ,combined with the first point making it seem like the whole thing was just a trap set up by the Klingon's .

And 3) even if it was genuine , there was no way to save them against such overwhelming odds and the enemy would have just likely taken the crew of the freighter and tortured and killed them , so he viewed it as mercy killing them while keeping his ship and crew alive and safe .

to me that is the only correct solution for the Kobayashi Maru test .

Thoughts ?

 

[Platy]

So I was not the only one that was like "ok that makes no sense" =P

I support his choice, and it has a higher chance of a trap than a mercy kill

 

[DrEvil]

Sure.

 

[Calamari41]

I've always wondered why this isn't written down as standard operating procedure when dealing with a friendly who has taken it upon themselves to violate the neutral zone in the first place.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I've always wondered why this isn't written down as standard operating procedure when dealing with a friendly who has taken it upon themselves to violate the neutral zone in the first place.

It's a good thing we don't apply this logic to real life because countries accidentally breach each others airspace and territory all the time and we thankfully don't blow them up for it.

 

[Seesaw15]

Mike?

 

[Effect]

Sounds like the most likely way to "win" that scenario. Assuming more ships don't delcoak as the ship is attempting to flee. In an actual situation of that that would likely be the bet course of action as the entire setup is suspect. My issue with that Maru test would be it clearly smells of a trap. If it's preparing one for an actual encounter like and not just to messed with their mind so they can think under pressure, do you poke that trap (which would make sense) or just rush right into it? The test I always felt assumes you blindly rush right into it.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

He's essentially cheating the test without going to the lengths Kirk did to physically cheat the test. It's still, at the core, breaking the game and then coming up with rationalizations for breaking it after the fact. Exploitation of a loophole, as opposed to physically getting under the machine and manufacturing one.

 

[Tertullian]

Your favored solution is to slaughter a ship full of innocent civilians in cold blood based on weak conjecture? I forsee a bright future for you in the Federation.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Sounds like the most likely way to "win" that scenario. Assuming more ships don't delcoak as the ship is attempting to flee. In an actual situation of that that would likely be the bet course of action as the entire setup is suspect. My issue with that Maru test would be it clearly smells of a trap. If it's preparing one for an actual encounter like and not just to messed with their mind so they can think under pressure, do you poke that trap (which would make sense) or just rush right into it? The test I always felt assumes you blindly rush right into.

I don't understand why the Kobayashi Maru would still be a test after decades with a similar setup, because obviously knowing the possible outcomes would heavily prejudice the later test-takers. Shouldn't there be multiple scenarios that get rotated out constantly?

Calhoun's solution makes perfect sense since it metagames the test but it also shows that it's clearly a pointless exercise insofar as a real-world application at some point.

 

[Platy]

It's a good thing we don't apply this logic to real life because countries accidentally breach each others airspace and territory all the time and we thankfully don't blow them up for it.

Well we don't have extreamly complex AI navigation systems and warp drives.

If you breach outerspace with this you WANT to breach it =P

But then again why would you get out of your house in a world with holodeck ?

 

[itwasTuesday]

I don't want to join an organization that would give up and kill me as a first attempt of rescue.

I mean, imagine the recruitment posters.

 

[HK-47]

Your favored solution is to slaughter a ship full of innocent civilians in cold blood based on weak conjecture? I forsee a bright future for you in the Federation.

I'd say he's got an admiralty in his future.

 

[Platy]

Your favored solution is to slaughter a ship full of innocent civilians in cold blood based on weak conjecture? I forsee a bright future for you in the Federation.

 

[Calamari41]

It's a good thing we don't apply this logic to real life because countries accidentally breach each others airspace and territory all the time and we thankfully don't blow them up for it.

If it meant certain war with a country like, say, the Soviet Union, I would imagine that the thought would at least cross some minds.

I'm not deeply versed in Star Trek lore, but isn't the whole thing with the Klingons that a small slight like this would trigger them into an all out war? If not, then I suppose it would be overkill to have that as SOP.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

I wish there was a break down of all the TV shows captains approaches, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, Riker (if he ever took it) would all be interesting to read about.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Ask how long the KM will survive with current onboard supplies.
Figure out a way to distract the Klingon defence in a way that wouldn't implicate the Federation. Then somehow get the Kobayashi crew out of the neutral zone.

 

[RangerBAD]

I'm surprised the Klingons wouldn't pick up on the distress signal and then blow up the cargo ship assuming it was a trap. They seem more likely to make that decision than a Federation Captain. That's a little suspicious too.

 

[Joni]

If it meant certain war with a country like, say, the Soviet Union, I would imagine that the thought would at least cross some minds.

There is an excellent book/movie about that, Fail Safe.

 

[Thorgal]

Your favored solution is to slaughter a ship full of innocent civilians in cold blood based on weak conjecture? I forsee a bright future for you in the Federation.

If it means saving my ship and by extension , the lives of my crew i would .
Being responsible for the lives of your crew means as captain that sometimes they must turn their hearts to stone and make the hard decisions to maintain their safety .

I would genuinely attempt to rescue them but if i have to choose between we all die and saving my own ship the latter is preferable no matter how unfair it is .

That is if the distress is genuine of course .

 

[liquidtmd]

Shoot and destroy the Kobayashi Maru and then run like hell.

 

[Thorgal]

Ask how long the KM will survive with current onboard supplies.
Figure out a way to distract the Klingon defence in a way that wouldn't implicate the Federation. Then somehow get the Kobayashi crew out of the neutral zone.

in the movies opening for the test they hailed the KM multiple times but recieved no answer .

 

[killamajig]

I thought it was more of a psychological test. If it was then blowing up the Maru probably isn't the best idea.

 

[blakep267]

One question I had was why is it impossible that after seeing the distress beacon, I then relay that to the rest of the fleet and call for back up.

It's stupid to take my ship in by itself

 

[Opto]

Actually I think Serek's is the best.

 

[Thorgal]

I thought it was more of a psychological test. If it was than blowing up the Maru probably isn't the best idea.

it is a physiological test in the sense of " how does the captain deal with an unwinnable situation ?

 

[BorkBork]

Has there been anyone who refused to go in canon?

 

[killamajig]

it is a physiological test in the sense of " how does the captain deal with an unwinnable situation ?

I'm thinking if this is one out of many psychological tests to see if you are fit to command I don't think I want Calhoun as my captain.

Just a gut feeling.

 

[shira]

Pine-sama best solution-kun

 

[Thorgal]

One question I had was why is it impossible that after seeing the distress beacon, I then relay that to the rest of the fleet and call for back up.

It's stupid to take my ship in by itself

if a ship passes the neutral zone it directly violates the (tentative )treaty with the klingons .

Sending an entire armada in , you might as well sound the warhorn .

As captain ask yourself if one ship is worth risking millions of lives for if it comes to war as cruel as that sounds and is .

or to quote spock : the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few .

 

[blakep267]

if a ship passes the neutral zone it directly violates the (tentative )treaty with the klingons .

Sending an entire armada in , you might as well sound the warhorn .

As captain ask yourself if one ship is worth risking millions of lives for if it comes to war as cruel as that sounds and is .

or to quote spock : the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few .

My idea was to call more ships and have them just chill in the periphery in an attempt to scare the Klingons. They probably wouldn't fall for the bluff and if worse comes to worse, we get rid of some Klingons. They cause enough trouble

 

[DarthWoo]

I'd hail what seems to be the lead Klingon ship and insult the commanding officer's mother for having raised such an honorless petaQ as would either set such a Romulan-esque trap, or who would actually use defenseless civilians to his advantage.

 

[Htown]

"YOU'RE DAMNED RIGHT YOU SHOULD HAVE CHECKED!"

 

[OrlanisWorks]

Apparently Will Riker beat the test, but is never said how.

Hail the Klingons and challenge their leader to a duel. They can't deny that, right? While the duel happens, rescue the ship.

 

[Ri'Orius]

Blowing up the Kobayashi seems unnecessary. I agree that it's probably a setup, but I don't see how destroying the ship helps.

Although come to think of it, in this scenario aren't the Klingons in massive breach of the Neutral Zone themselves? Which sounds like an act of war already.

 

[datruth29]

By far my favorite DS9 episode.

 

[mr jones]

Damn trekkers. Always start bringing up obscure references that I have no idea about. Wheres the cute chicks with blue skin or a ridge on top of their noses that signify that they're aliens?

 

[Effect]

it is a physiological test in the sense of " how does the captain deal with an unwinnable situation ?

When you think about it "winning the fight" might not very well be the best option in general. Retreat is a viable and acceptable option. Something that perhaps cadets likely wouldn't considered. It's a test they must pass and passing meanings winning for a lot of people and running is the "wrong" option especially when they know they're being watched and graded. I feel the test could be used to beat that out of them. Do you stay and fight and get your crew killed or do you live to fight another day regardless of how you are looked at?

"YOU'RE DAMNED RIGHT YOU SHOULD HAVE CHECKED!"

Can't believe I forgot about that episode. I guess that means it's time for a rewatching of DS9.

 

[JC Lately]

That’s not how you spell Marisa Picard.

But seriously, that test always sounded like a set up for a Klingon Trap to me. Why is passenger ship, basically a space-commercial airliner – be flying close enough to the Neutral Zone to hit a gravitic mine? That’s like United Airlines accidentally flying over the Korean DMZ. It just doesn’t happen. Way I see it there are three possibilities:

The Kobayashi Maru wasn’t a civilian ship, but a Federation spy vessel. The Empire cannot be allowed to learn this. Destroy the ship and run like hell.

The Kobayashi Maru is a trap to lure a Federation ship into the Neutral zone. This means the ship is either an empty decoy or manned by Klingons whose death the Empire cannot admit to. To show that the Federation cannot be baited like this in the future, destroy the ship and run like hell.

The Kobayashi Maru is a civilian ship that somehow managed actually get in this situation. Rescue is impossible, imprisonment by the Klingons of that era is a fate worse than death. Destroy the Ship and run like hell.

Calhoun did nothing wrong.

 

[Escape Goat]

The captain can challenge the Klingon commander to hand to hand combat. The Klingon, eager to defend his honor, would have to accept.

???

Profit

 

[Htown]

The captain can challenge the Klingon commander to hand to hand combat. The Klingon, eager to defend his honor, would have to accept.

???

Profit

Twist! The ships were Klingon but the crews are Romulan, as it was actually their attempt to start a war between their two chief rivals.

 

[grandjedi6]

I wish there was a break down of all the TV shows captains approaches, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, Riker (if he ever took it) would all be interesting to read about.

Picard would negotiate a temporary truce with the Klingons to get the victims out and would lead to an everlasting peace amongst species.

Riker would split the saucer sections which would confuse the Klingons by its stupidity long enough for an away team to get everyone off the ship.

Janeway would unleash a virus that commits genocide against the Klingons just to get 5 crewmembers and their dog back to Earth.

Sisko depends on which season of DS9 we are talking about.

 

[Jacobi]

3) isn't really the Federation way to deal with things.
There isn't any necessity to shoot the ship. If it is just a fake trap, it doesn't need to be shooted and if there are people in there they might survive being prisoners.

Just fleeing is the correct solution I'd say.
It doesn't make sense to try to rescue people if it leads to the inevitable death of the own crew (and the people to be rescued).

 

[Reuenthal]

Ask for backup directly outside the neutral zone. Go do the mission because else its boring and too easy to decide just don't go in. Try to rescue at least one passenger so we can question him for info. And the more we can rescue the better.
Then try to get the fuck out of there when the Klingons arrive.

 

[BTails]

To everyone saying challenge the Klingons... Isn't their presense unknown to the cadet taking the test? It's been a while, but I seem to recall the Klingons are cloaked, and only uncloak when the Federation ship crosses into the neutral zone.

So would the cadet challenge the Klingon commander after they'd uncloaked? Would he/she have enough time?

 

[Lord Panda]

The Klingons maintain radio (hailing?) silence throughout the test.

How far into the Neutral Zone is the Maru? Can it not be towed back to Federation space before the Klingon armada arrive?

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

My thoughts are that eppy's reaction to him doing that was even better

 

[birthday-suit]

Picard would negotiate a temporary truce with the Klingons to get the victims out and would lead to an everlasting peace amongst species.

Riker would split the saucer sections which would confuse the Klingons by its stupidity long enough for an away team to get everyone off the ship.

Janeway would unleash a virus that commits genocide against the Klingons just to get 5 crewmembers and their dog back to Earth.

Sisko depends on which season of DS9 we are talking about.

That's why I like Janeway. She don't play.

 

[Fury451]

Also known as the "Agent J" method.

 

[Jarmel]

The captain can challenge the Klingon commander to hand to hand combat. The Klingon, eager to defend his honor, would have to accept.

???

Profit

No communication.