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CD or Vinyl? Starting a physical music collection...

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Joe

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I'm looking to start a physical musical media collection and I can't decide between formats. I realize that vinyl is incredibly trendy right now (for good reason) but I'm trying to find what's right for me, not what's in.

Honestly, right off the bat, I want to go with CDs. They're cheaper than vinyl and way more practical (I rent and have limited space).

My number one priority: quality. I want to hear as close to what the artist wanted me to hear.

My number one roadblock: money. My budget for a player is $100, that's it.

These are my perceived pros and cons of each:
CDs
+relatively low cost
+small size/easy to store
+easier to find
+dynamic range, channel separation, other technical specs

-artwork/booklets are small and unimpressive
-not as intimate and eventful as placing a record on a turntable

Vinyl
+gorgeous, large artwork and inserts
+that warm, fuzzy, crackling type of white noise
+very intimate and slightly "eventful"

-large, hard to store, hard to move an entire collection
-desirable albums can be hard to find and incredibly expensive
-down the road a better turntable will cost upwards of $500


While stuff like the inserts, eventfulness, and white noise are all definitely features I would like to point out that at the end of the day I still crave quality. All those other "features" do weigh on my decision though.
 
If you're gonna be serious about this, vinyl is the only way. It can be costly though, as you mentioned.

You should buy one of those EXPEDIT shelving units from IKEA for storing vinyls, before IKEA discontinues them (unless they already did.)





EDITI'm sorry I should have read your OP.
 
I didn't know records were trendy now, nor did I know it was expensive. Too me records have always been cheaper the CD's, like buying a game off Steam. The only thing I really spent money on was a pro turn table and I've had the same one since 1990. What type of music on vinyl is trendy right now?


Edit: If interested the turn table is a Technics SL-1210MK2.
 
Vinyl is the only way, my man.

CDs are ugly looking and not as great conversational pieces as Vinyl. Vinyl also looks way better in a shelf and that huge artwork is awesome.

Moreover, Vinyl will also let appreciate listening to whole albums since skipping songs is a bit harder.

Vinyl,
Vinyl,
Vinyl.

It's just way cooler too. CDs are in this weird no man's land right. Most people do digital or streaming. The big music freaks and collectors are collecting vinyl now.

But if money is a concern for you, I will go CD. Vinyl is a rabbit hole of wallet killing death.
 
I didn't know records were trendy now, nor did I know it was expensive. Too me records have always been cheaper the CD's, like buying a game off Steam. The only thing I really spent money on was a pro turn table and I've had the same one since 1990. What type of music on vinyl is trendy right now?


The first two vinyls that I priced out were Radiohead - Kid A ($30) and Jets To Brazil - Orange Rhyming Dictionary (~$80). Started considering CDs real quick lol.
 
Not going to lie, the large artwork, coolness factor, and just using vinyl as conversation pieces is appealing.


It gets expensive quick though. Real quick.
 
I find the mixture of Vinyl + digital download very satisfying.
Buy a vinyl and get a download code, so you have both the wonderful physical object and a digital version for MP3 players.

The thing that I don't like about CDs is that I seem to break them quite easily. All my CDs that are 5 years and older skip. The cases are all wrecked within a year... but that might just be me.
All my vinyl is still absolutely fine (vinyl itself and the cases).

That might factor into your decision. Then again, you might be a lot more careful with CDs...
 
When I was a teenager, I started a massive CD Collection with my brother. I probably have 100s of them. When the collection got too big and too average, I jumped to Vinyl. I have probably 10 Vinyls now and that's all I buy now. If you are starting a collection, start with Vinyl.

Not only are Vinyl rarer, they are amazing to look at and they nowadays come with digital download code so you can listen to the music on the go without scratching the vinyls. The downside is that Vinyls are more expensive than CDs, and that you can't have a "sealed" collection as a sealed vinyl apparently does more harm, so make sure you get rid of that shrink wrap (Am I wrong? Please correct me!).

I don't even own a turntable! I will own one someday when the world erupts and I need to feel all old and shit. There are some cheap turntables but try getting a decent one to not scratch them.
 
I have a pile of LPs, but I can't imagine starting a collection from scratch. LP hunting is a daunting task and prices are so insanely varied it's hard to tell if you're getting a good deal or not. Plus there are so many versions of "pressings" that you have to be hardcore to know what's what.

If you know what you're looking for, then I would go with CDs. LPs are like antique shopping - you kinda browse and impulse buy.
 
I have a small CD collection and I'm sticking with that. WhY? I don't have any room for a record player and I don't have any room to store vinyl. Maybe when I live on my own I'll start buying vinyl. For now I'll stick with CD's.

Also, vinyl is expensive as fuck.
 
The first two vinyls that I priced out were Radiohead - Kid A ($30) and Jets To Brazil - Orange Rhyming Dictionary (~$80). Started considering CDs real quick lol.

Mmmm my collection is exclusively underground music, punk, industrial, house, EBM, post punk/goth. Most of my records drop off at the late 90's in terms of being the newest.
 
There is no correct answer here.

CDs are unquestionably a more accurate reproduction of what was played in the recording studio. Some people prefer the slightly (and it is very slight) muddiness/warmth of the vinyl sound though.

I simply prefer vinyl because of the lovely packaging and the way it brings me back to a more relaxed patient way of listening to records, as opposed to digital music which just feeds off my A.D.D. and makes me skip all over the place. Love the ritual of putting a vinyl album on, sitting in my beanbag with my headphones on holding the sleeve and looking at the artwork etc.

Not gonna lie though... vinyl is expensive. You need to avoid a collector mindset and make sure you are buying music you love rather than trophies. Don't buy certain albums thinking that "I probably should have this to look like a real music afficionado" or because it is on a "albums no collection is complete without" list... Buy what you want to listen to. If you find yourself bragging to a friend about how much a particular album is worth, it is a good sign that your motivations are becoming warped.

Just got a copy of the rather limited reissue of Massive Attack's Mezzanine. The new jewel in my vinyl crate. I heart it so much.
 
Mmmm my collection is exclusively underground music, punk, industrial, house, EBM, post punk/goth. Most of my records drop off at the late 90's in terms of being the newest.

My collection is everything Trent Reznor. Nine Inch Nails, Soundtracks, and other EPs where he has guest appearance or two. I don't think I can replace my massive CD collection though.

My most expenssive collections are "The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo" OST, and "Ghosts I - IV", both being $300 each... :/
 
LP hunting is a daunting task and prices are so insanely varied it's hard to tell if you're getting a good deal or not.

Plus there are so many versions of "pressings" that you have to be hardcore to know what's what.

The solution to both these problems is Discogs.

Every time you play the vinyl, you're destroying the record and decreasing the sound quality.

If you have a cartridge and stylus of moderate quality, and have your gear calibrated correctly, you will get hundreds and hundreds of plays off a record before any discernable flattening of the sound kicks in.
 
Only buy your favorite albums. Don't start collecting, it's fun for a while but it will become an obsession and both a time and money sink which you could regret in a few years, because of all the money you've spent and it's a bitch to sell a CD or vinyl collection. You'd be better off spending that time and money on learning to play an instrument or something.
 
My collection is everything Trent Reznor. Nine Inch Nails, Soundtracks, and other EPs where he has guest appearance or two. I don't think I can replace my massive CD collection though.

My most expenssive collections are "The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo" OST, and "Ghosts I - IV", both being $300 each... :/

$300,are the collectors Ed? Different colored vinyl? Picture vinyl?
 
Only buy your favorite albums. Don't start collecting, it's fun for a while but it will become an obsession and both a time and money sink which you could regret in a few years, because of all the money you've spent and it's a bitch to sell a CD or vinyl collection. You'd be better off spending that time and money on learning to play an instrument or something.

Yeah, make it a highly vetted and exclusive set. Or pick out just a few artists that you want to exhaustively collect.
 
Works for me. I see an album I want in a store, then check Discogs to make sure I am not getting hideously ripped off, then I buy it.

I guess it depends on whether you are a purchaser or pricing your own collection. I can't make heads or tales what my collection is worth on discogs. One day I'm psyched that my Brian Eno or PJ Harvey or Iron Maiden record is super valuable, then the the next day it's worth $5.
 
I guess it depends on whether you are a purchaser or pricing your own collection. I can't make heads or tales what my collection is worth on discogs. One day I'm psyched that my Brian Eno or PJ Harvey or Iron Maiden record is super valuable, then the the next day it's worth $5.

Yeah, fair point. Not too fussed on the value of my collection. Discogs is a good purchasing tool. I normally just pretend I am judging Olympic diving and remove the highest and lowest prices and look for the average.
 
Listening to vinyl is so sexy. There is something about it that can't be put into words. I have a vinyl collection. Vinyl all the way.
 
Vinyl + Digital is the perfect combination.. but if money is an issue, you might as well avoid it while you still can.

I don't even want to think about how much money I spent on my collection and set up. The first thing I bought were the records.. but then came the price of the turntable (A decent beginners turntable would cost you $170). Then there's the phono pre amp if your current amp doesn't already have a phono connection. Once you get obsessed you then think about shelving, outer and inner record sleeves, anti static brushes, stylus cleaners, record cleaning machines etc.
 
Every time you play the vinyl, you're destroying the record and decreasing the sound quality.

If you mishandle CDs, you can decrease the sound quality as well. The issue isn't exclusive to vinyl. The only 'perfect' medium that doesn't degrade after repeated listening would be digital.
 
ZD8VSCk.jpg


this collection/picture is sexy as fuck.

can anyone else with a cd collection post up pictures? Or chime in if they are happy with it, or anything else?
 
I do a mix of both. Space is an issue for me so I can't have a large vinyl collection. Most of my physical music purchases are CDs and I buy vinyls for albums that I am really into.
 
I'm going to have to say vinyl, used to love CDs but these days they just have no use, looks artwork looks great and the sound is generally better. Plus vinyl usually comes with either a CD copy or a digital version so you get the main benefit of a CD as well
 
The first two vinyls that I priced out were Radiohead - Kid A ($30) and Jets To Brazil - Orange Rhyming Dictionary (~$80). Started considering CDs real quick lol.
Firstly, awesome taste! ;)

Secondly, I hear you. I started getting into vinyl, only getting the albums I loved, but it can still be a money pit. While a lot more albums are getting printed on vinyl these days, it can still be hard tracking down old favourite albums (if they were ever on vinyl to begin with).

An even bigger problem (for me) is the rabbit hole of audio equipment. I got a half decent record player, but trying to get up to speed on all the various aspects like cartridges, turntables, amplifiers etc just was too much. I'm clearly not an audiophile, and it seems hard to get into vinyl without getting hardcore. Sure, maybe you can get by with a half-decent player and a cheap amp, but I was pretty overwhelmed with the information overload when I started looking into it, and it turned me off big time.

In the end, I just bought some good headphones, and have started archiving my entire CD collection in FLAC format instead. That's enough for me. I don't bother with vinyl anymore for the various reasons I mentioned, and because I realized the physical part
wasn't that important to me after all.

EDIT: I saw you want opinions on large CD collections. I have a fairly large collection (800-900), although I have them packed away at the moment due to space restrictions (will be on display again when I eventually move into a bigger place). When displayed right, a shit ton of CDs can look great, as that picture you posted shows (mine have been packed away so long I'd forgotten lol). I have friends with collections of ~1500 or more, and it looks great. A lot of the appeal of having a physical collection of CDs is the same as vinyl - browsing a large collection, pulling things off the shelf and flicking through the art etc.

Vinyl can look great, and the large artwork can be fantastic, but the price and the equipment turned me off. I will stick with CDs as I already have a large collection, it is very easy to rip to a digital collection, it can still look great on display, and it's waaaay cheaper and easier to find the albums you want.
 
I got a 2,000 vinyl collection and don't know hoe many CDs, did a lot of djing back in the day. If I was you I would go vinyl and although you have a small budget you should get a Technics 1200. They are the cadallic of turntables.
 
ZD8VSCk.jpg


this collection/picture is sexy as fuck.

can anyone else with a cd collection post up pictures? Or chime in if they are happy with it, or anything else?

My CD collection almost got to that size a few years ago. It didn't make me happy. It was just too overwhelming, Picking out something to listen to out of that huge collection gave me stress. I felt guilty about all the CDs I barely listened to because I was never in the mood, thus making me feel guilty about wasting money. It's the same issues you'd get with any collection (games, movies...). Then I realised I was collecting CDs all those years because I was lonely and that was a way for me to cope. It backfired.

I've downsized to about 100 CDs now and I'm much more comfortable. It's so much more valuable to me than the huge collection I had before. All the albums that I don't listen a lot to, I just play them on Spotify.

Prevent going down the same route now that you still can.
 
My CD collection almost got to that size a few years ago. It didn't make me happy. It was just too overwhelming, Picking out something to listen to out of that huge collection gave me stress and I felt guilty about all the CDs I barely listened to because I was never in the mood, thus making me feel guilty about wasting money. It's the same issues you'd get with any collection (games, movies...). Then I realised I was collecting CDs all those years because I was lonely and that was a way for me to cope. It backfired.

I've downsized to about 100 CDs now and I'm much more comfortable. It's so much more valuable to me than the huge collection I had before. All the albums that I don't listen a lot to, I just play them on Spotify.

Prevent going down the same route now that you still can.
There is definitely something to this. I don't know if I'd buy all 800 or so of my CDs a second time.

Quality over quantity is a pretty good attitude to take. Just buy the albums you like, and don't worry about "building" a collection, whether it's CD or vinyl.

Plus vinyl usually comes with either a CD copy or a digital version so you get the main benefit of a CD as well
Unfortunately, I have not found this to be the case. "Some" vinyl prints have a CD or download code, but certainly not most of the vinyl records I bought. A lot of them were recent albums too.
 
I'd just go with vinyl. Most modern albums will also have digital downloads in them so you could have an easier way to listen to the music on the go as well. Plus the records themselves sound better, and the overall package is better aesthetically.

I had over 500 records before I sold most of them off to fund a trip to Japan, but it was a great hobby. Now my collection is narrowed down to the 30 or so records I couldn't bring myself to sell.
 
ZD8VSCk.jpg


this collection/picture is sexy as fuck.

can anyone else with a cd collection post up pictures? Or chime in if they are happy with it, or anything else?

I wish I had the space for a collection like that. If I ever get a place where I have a room for my stuff, it will be lined with CD and vinyl shelving along the walls.

Right now the bulk of my collection is digital with maybe a few hundred CDs scattered all over the place in boxes and such...nothing fancy like that. I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 vinyl.
 
There is definitely something to this. I don't know if I'd buy all 800 or so of my CDs a second time.

Quality over quantity is a pretty good attitude to take. Just buy the albums you like, and don't worry about "building" a collection, whether it's CD or vinyl.

A very good tip that you could apply to any collection would be not to buy anything new until you've fully explored your current collection.
 
I'm looking to start a physical musical media collection and I can't decide between formats.

As much as I love collecting vinyl, I explain to my friends that I'm going out of my way to buy music in the most expensive and inconvenient format possible. Admittedly, if you're buying older used records and have access to a good local shop, you can snag tons of LPs in reasonable condition for $4-5, but on the flip side if you're buying current new releases those generally start at $20 and can hit $30 or more pretty easily. And, yes, while vinyl looks great as a physical artifact, it does take up a lot more space, is heavy to move in bulk, and isn't the model of convenience.

I also explain to my pals that, for me, playing and collecting records is a lot of fun. I find the experience of putting on an album and sitting down to listen to it different from, say, cueing up MP3s or what have you. There's a lot of nostalgia tied up in the experience.

That said, in practical terms, for someone looking to simply experience music as intended without breaking the bank, I would absolutely recommend you go with collecting CDs. When CDs supplanted LPs in the 80s, it wasn't because everyone wanted the shiny new thing and didn't care about music quality: in general, a well mastered CD is going to be as good a reflection of the artist's intent that takes up less space on the shelf and will not degrade over time from a record needle.

As mentioned, I think it's fun to sit down and put on a record. But, there's nothing to stop me from having the same experience (sans a smaller square to admire) by sitting down and having a dedicated listening experience with a CD; the only difference is the size of the cover art and my not having to get up and flip the disc halfway through. It's kinda like the distinction between DVD and Laserdisc: both formats can look great, but when LD is more expensive, heavier, and you have to flip the disc, there's a reason why everyone decided to go with DVD. Also, unless you have a serious, audiophile-style system, there is not going to be an appreciable difference in sound quality.

I don't think that the current vinyl boom is a reaction from people who were listening to a lot of CDs and then decided they needed some vinyl in their life. My guess is that it's a a lot of people who were listening to MP3s and streaming music and decided they missed the physical artifact aspect of music collecting. When a new LP comes with a digital download - or, doesn't, but the music is available instantly off the internet anyway - you have the option of having a fetish object to place on the shelf and admire, while still being able to fire up your favorite tunes on your phone or what have you. And, hey, that's totally fine and, as mentioned, it can be a lot of fun. But, if your goal is to have a physical media format that delivers the artist's intent and is cost effective, I wouldn't recommend vinyl. If money and space were no object, perhaps, but even then I wouldn't say there's much of a direct, appreciable difference between the formats.

Are you starting from scratch in terms of a player? If so, your $100 budget is a bit of a stumbling block; you can add a component CD player for about that price to an existing receiver/speaker setup, but otherwise you're looking at around $400 to get that going properly. Alternately, some decent looking bookshelf systems from Onkyo and Sony are available starting at around $200, so save up the extra scratch and go for one of those. If it's any consolation, it looks like you can snag Kid A and Orange Rhyming Dictionary for just over $20 combined, so if you do decide to go with CDs then the money you'll save on the media will more than make up for any extra setup expense for now.

Which ever format you choose, let us know how it works out!

FnordChan
 
I grew up with vinyl and honestly I don't miss it that much. Vinyl albums are cool and all, having liner notes and all that jazz, but the upkeep was a bitch and it's only gotten more expensive. Just get CD's. They'll last a hell of a lot longer.
 
Vinyl or bust

IMO, better artwork, better rare albums to collect (gotta catch 'em all!), the equipment is more fun, it's actually easier to acquire albums (I see records for sale everywhere... but I don't see CDs), and also there's something artful and meditative about playing and taking care of records.

I started collecting records because I had maxed out what I could afford for my book collection (I bought several 1st 1sts UK Harry Potters before they skyrocketed in price!). It's a lot of fun.

Oh, Discogs is the best place to buy online (and use as a metric for how much something should cost if you are in a store.

The first two vinyls that I priced out were Radiohead - Kid A ($30) and Jets To Brazil - Orange Rhyming Dictionary (~$80). Started considering CDs real quick lol.

While specific records might be more expensive than their CD counterparts records are frequently available for a dollar or two. The thing to do is collect random albums from a genre, and save up for the specific things you want. Also, a legit Kid A should cost about $45 now (it was regular $30 back in 2008). Unless it's a really good deal it's probably one of those Capital Vaults editions. Unless you literally just want it on vinyl without specification I'd avoid it and save up for an original.
 
I started on vinyl, and still buy the majority of what I want on Vinyl if available. But I kinda gave up on the idea of not buying CDs. It's just no reasonable to pay $30 for a vinyl that's a $10 CD. And many albums just aren't available. So I opted for vinyl when possible, but I've just started complementing with CDs. I'd rather have a large, diverse collection in mixed formats, then be limited by availability and price.
 
Vinyl are great and depending on what music you listen to, a lot of stuff can be had on vinyl and no other format (well, download codes these days I guess). You can also get some stellar stuff for pennies and sniffing about in flea markets is fun. MASSIVE downside to vinyl is storage though, I've had to reinforce shelving in the past and moving is always a gigantic pain in the arse.

The resale is good on vinyl though, which can be a big plus. I recently downsized from thousands to hundreds and since vinyl is so trendy now, I killed it with some really crappy records. Most of them sold for at least 4x the price I paid and a few sold for ridic sums, I sold a POS muse record fro ÂŁ250 that I bought for ÂŁ12 back in the day. Crazy. I don't really see the value of CDs at the moment, I've got crates and crates of CDs stuffed in storage, I don't want to sell them because they don't go for anything but I just never listen to them, so I just rip them and then hoard them.
 
As much as I love collecting vinyl, I explain to my friends that I'm going out of my way to buy music in the most expensive and inconvenient format possible. Admittedly, if you're buying older used records and have access to a good local shop, you can snag tons of LPs in reasonable condition for $4-5, but on the flip side if you're buying current new releases those generally start at $20 and can hit $30 or more pretty easily. And, yes, while vinyl looks great as a physical artifact, it does take up a lot more space, is heavy to move in bulk, and isn't the model of convenience.

I also explain to my pals that, for me, playing and collecting records is a lot of fun. I find the experience of putting on an album and sitting down to listen to it different from, say, cueing up MP3s or what have you. There's a lot of nostalgia tied up in the experience.

That said, in practical terms, for someone looking to simply experience music as intended without breaking the bank, I would absolutely recommend you go with collecting CDs. When CDs supplanted LPs in the 80s, it wasn't because everyone wanted the shiny new thing and didn't care about music quality: in general, a well mastered CD is going to be as good a reflection of the artist's intent that takes up less space on the shelf and will not degrade over time from a record needle.

As mentioned, I think it's fun to sit down and put on a record. But, there's nothing to stop me from having the same experience (sans a smaller square to admire) by sitting down and having a dedicated listening experience with a CD; the only difference is the size of the cover art and my not having to get up and flip the disc halfway through. It's kinda like the distinction between DVD and Laserdisc: both formats can look great, but when LD is more expensive, heavier, and you have to flip the disc, there's a reason why everyone decided to go with DVD. Also, unless you have a serious, audiophile-style system, there is not going to be an appreciable difference in sound quality.

I don't think that the current vinyl boom is a reaction from people who were listening to a lot of CDs and then decided they needed some vinyl in their life. My guess is that it's a a lot of people who were listening to MP3s and streaming music and decided they missed the physical artifact aspect of music collecting. When a new LP comes with a digital download - or, doesn't, but the music is available instantly off the internet anyway - you have the option of having a fetish object to place on the shelf and admire, while still being able to fire up your favorite tunes on your phone or what have you. And, hey, that's totally fine and, as mentioned, it can be a lot of fun. But, if your goal is to have a physical media format that delivers the artist's intent and is cost effective, I wouldn't recommend vinyl. If money and space were no object, perhaps, but even then I wouldn't say there's much of a direct, appreciable difference between the formats.

Are you starting from scratch in terms of a player? If so, your $100 budget is a bit of a stumbling block; you can add a component CD player for about that price to an existing receiver/speaker setup, but otherwise you're looking at around $400 to get that going properly. Alternately, some decent looking bookshelf systems from Onkyo and Sony are available starting at around $200, so save up the extra scratch and go for one of those. If it's any consolation, it looks like you can snag Kid A and Orange Rhyming Dictionary for just over $20 combined, so if you do decide to go with CDs then the money you'll save on the media will more than make up for any extra setup expense for now.

Which ever format you choose, let us know how it works out!

FnordChan
hey thanks a lot for the insight!

I already have an onkyo 5.1 receiver and speakers, and nice audio technica headphones. I really only need a cd player, would you be able to recommend one in my price range?

edit: whoops! Just saw your link to one, thanks!
 
I don't want to sound like a broken record here (derp) but I can't stress enough how much of a waste starting a collection can be. I know, I've been there. Hell I'm still there right now to some extent. But a day will come when you reach a certain age and it dawns on you - "What was I thinking?" It may not be today, it may not be tomorrow, but I assure you it will happen. If you have to collect something, do it modestly. Otherwise you will regret it someday. Big time.
 
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I'd get CDs for the majority of album releases and vinyl for collecting limited editions,12" remixes,Record Store Day releases,etc.
 
hey thanks a lot for the insight!

My pleasure and I hope it helps! Like others have said, the important thing is to avoid getting into physical media collecting for it's own sake and to focus on picking up albums you plan on actively listening to and enjoying. I say that as someone with a crippling collecting impulse who has way too much stuff crammed into way too small a space; it makes me happy, but I can't say that it's entirely rational.

I already have an onkyo 5.1 receiver and speakers, and nice audio technica headphones. I really only need a cd player, would you be able to recommend one in my price range?

To be honest, I grabbed the link to that Sony system at random as a fairly well reviewed CD player on Amazon for around $100. Looking at it a bit more closely I see that it's a 5-disc changer, which I don't know that I'd recommend over a dedicated, single disc player: from personal experience, I'd say a single disc player has less to break than the changer does. Folks on Amazon seem to like this single-disc Onkyo player, so based on all of five minutes of research I'd recommend you save up and go for that rather than the Sony player I linked to.

FnordChan
 
I'm not really worried about going overboard. I'd only buy albums I enjoy listening to start to finish. Plus I don't have much space or disposable income. I'd probably buy around 1 or 2 albums a month after a little initial splurge.

edit: yes I agree, id much rather have a single disc over a multidisc player.
 
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